I agree with you, but it cover only the period 1500BC-500BC and discusses only north-east Indian republics... Do you know any book on north west Indian rebublic history?
-vinod
-vinod
Jats in Indian epics
- Thread starter lrburdak
- Start date
arunshamli
New member
It is more than a month and no one has answered this question yet, So I am going to assume that "jat jhat sanghate" does not exist in Ashtadhayi.
ravichaudhary
New member
Sharma wrote this book circa 1950. He lived in the US and was married to a Jewish lady.
At that time it was generally accepted that the chronology was 1,500 BCE for the 'Aryan Invasion'
I use the term 'Aryan Invasion' consideredly, to indicate the thinking at time among Western Scholars. Sharma despite his Indian name would qualify as a Western Scholar. H, as his education, training was all western.
Over the last 20 years, the alternate theories of chronology have take hold, and one cannot simplistically accept the chronology generally accepted in the 50's.
Even among the Western Scholars, the chronology for the Migration etc has been getting pushed back steadily, and now they talk of 2,000 BCE as a standard marker.
His book, leaving the chronology aspect aside, is absolutely excellent (this for those who have not read it), for it brings out the fact the society was largely republican as one might expect, and there were some aspects of monarchialism, as we must also expect.
His book is based on the Vedic literature available to him. The dating of that literature and the events therein can be left aside, when studying his book.
The book is highly recommended.
Ravi Chaudhary
ravichaudhary
New member
Easy, Easy
One of our problems is the lack amongst us of members who know the ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Brahmi, etc
The other is lack of access to the texts themsleves.
It would sort of nice if more jats would take up linguistics, Sanskrit etc, as part of their studies, and know English too, so that we could get some translations with a Jat perspective
Anyone know any such scholars?
Ravi Chaudhary
narenderkharb
Active member
Before discussing with others I wanted to have a concensus among us who we are , on pure facts.
You can see for past some time I am trying my best to have openion of senior members Like Ravi ji and others regarding our relation with vedism but some how there is relcutance on part of worthy members.
Some time we don't want to say truth in order not to hurt feeling of our worthy seniors but..
One can really feel sorry if we quote we were in Astadhyayi but can'nt show to anybody if someone ask ,where ?
And quote some one article to prove that karkasara and arrata similar to rathi
proves we were Aryans but on finding article say opposite ,simply say we don't have to believe this.
Sorry to be blunt but this is no honesty in our quest for a true Jat past .
What is the use of such type of history if its only aim is ego satisfaction.
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You are right in the sense that we need to make the basics strong before taking up these issues to the next level, which could be serious discussions with non-jat scholars and publications etc. There would never come a point when all of us agree on all the issues but we need not wait for that. Some people in Jatland are more experienced and some are just starting up(like me) and it may take time before all of us arrive at the stage where we can easily grasp the content of publications, like Vishal's, and promptly compare with original ref and detect fallacy. I can see this group contributing original material in few more year down the line.
I didn't understand most of the concerned paper so am not in position to contribute. But you should anyway raise these points since they are backed by ref. so concensus among ourselves is redundant, atleast in this context.
As per Astadhyayi, someone need to do deeper study before arriving at any conclusion. Its possible that the verse# in ref was not right. There is no doubt that Astadhayayi has important information about republics and I tried to get V S Agarwal's "India as known to Panini", this is not available anywhere online. Its in library of congress DC but I dont have account.
I think if we want to contribute more to what other Jat writers have done; first of all, we should read them and then, we should to read history written by nationalist writers, and then we can follow the thread to original sources and try to fit things.
-vinod
I didn't understand most of the concerned paper so am not in position to contribute. But you should anyway raise these points since they are backed by ref. so concensus among ourselves is redundant, atleast in this context.
As per Astadhyayi, someone need to do deeper study before arriving at any conclusion. Its possible that the verse# in ref was not right. There is no doubt that Astadhayayi has important information about republics and I tried to get V S Agarwal's "India as known to Panini", this is not available anywhere online. Its in library of congress DC but I dont have account.
I think if we want to contribute more to what other Jat writers have done; first of all, we should read them and then, we should to read history written by nationalist writers, and then we can follow the thread to original sources and try to fit things.
-vinod
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Ravi ji,
I agree that Sharma's book is probabily best treatment of republics of vedic and northeast India but it's not about republics of northwest India after 500BC(Jat tribes). It's generally said that writers like Jayaswal and Majumdar had been little liberal in glorifying ancient govt system becuase they were nationalist writers in time of India's new independence and there was subconscious attempt to prove that India is capable of governing itself. Something like -Democracy is not new, we knew it 2000 years back.
Sharma says that Altekar's "State and Govt in Ancient India" is better than these writers so I just ordered it. There is another book by Altekar.
A history of village communities in western India, (University of Bombay. Economic series, no. v) (Unknown Binding) by Anant Sadashiv Altekar
http://www.amazon.com/history-villa...f=sr_1_21/102-0232693-2947375?ie=UTF8&s=books
It would be really interesting to read history of village community in northwest india, it might have some missing links about Jat history. But I dont know how to get this book:-((.
-vinod
I agree that Sharma's book is probabily best treatment of republics of vedic and northeast India but it's not about republics of northwest India after 500BC(Jat tribes). It's generally said that writers like Jayaswal and Majumdar had been little liberal in glorifying ancient govt system becuase they were nationalist writers in time of India's new independence and there was subconscious attempt to prove that India is capable of governing itself. Something like -Democracy is not new, we knew it 2000 years back.
Sharma says that Altekar's "State and Govt in Ancient India" is better than these writers so I just ordered it. There is another book by Altekar.
A history of village communities in western India, (University of Bombay. Economic series, no. v) (Unknown Binding) by Anant Sadashiv Altekar
http://www.amazon.com/history-villa...f=sr_1_21/102-0232693-2947375?ie=UTF8&s=books
It would be really interesting to read history of village community in northwest india, it might have some missing links about Jat history. But I dont know how to get this book:-((.
-vinod
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Hi Narenderji,
Banbhatta has mentioned about Saraswati in 'Harshacharita' he mentions that they took bath in Sarasvari river. Thanesar and Kurukshetra are in Haryana. The river originates from place very near to Thanesar. You can read 'Harshacharita' for that . It is in Jat history file section on Yahoo. The sarasvati river probably was in existence in 7th century. Here is a Map of Aryavrata you can see clearly Sarasvati river shown in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Vedic_India.png
If you study the dynasty of 'Yayati' which you can see on Jatland wiki here
http://www.jatland.com/home/Yayati
You will find that Yayati got two sons from Devyani – 1. Yadu and 2. Turvasu.
He also got three sons from Sharmishtha – 1. Druhyu 2. Anu and 3. Puru.
The descendants of Yadu are called Yadavvanshi in which was born Krishna, the founder of Jat sangha.
Ram Swarup Joon has given this ancestry in his book on Jat History, which is based on James Todd and Agni Purana. RS Joon mentions that nothing is known of Anu in Puranas. But when I was studying Sumerian Civilization we find lot about Anu. It means The five sons of Yayati can be considered to rule entire Aryavrata. In that situation we can not say there was a migration type of exodus at all. A jat satrap appointed went to that kingdom to rule with few of his trusted chieftains.
We can think on these lines and make a model about Aryan or Jat migration. My view is that Aryans have been coming and going at various times as the situations demanded. Aryavrata was their homeland. This theory is supported by many jat historians like Thakur Deshraj, Dr Natthan Singh etc.
We take present situation. For example Marwaris are doing business in entire world but they are from Haryana and Rajasthan. Situations arise, say naxalism in northwest, and they are forced to leave that place. They may leave that place for some time and go to Madras and Kolkata. On favourable conditions they again come to Assam. This type of situation prevailed at that time also.
Regards,
Rhys Davids
Hi,
Rhys Davids was first historian to talk about (1902) existence of republics in ancient India...
His famous book "Buddhist India" is ONLINE...
http://www.fsnow.com/text/buddhist-india/
-vinod
Hi,
Rhys Davids was first historian to talk about (1902) existence of republics in ancient India...
His famous book "Buddhist India" is ONLINE...
http://www.fsnow.com/text/buddhist-india/
-vinod
Aryan Migration
Hi Vinodji, good search. I was reading this book Chapter-2 in which it gives the route of Aryan Migration as under -
It is supposed that the course of Aryan migration lay along the valleys of the Ganges and the Jumna. It cannot have been so simple. We must postulate at least two other lines of equal importance—one down the Indus, round the Gulf of Cutch, and so up to Avanti; and another along the foot of the mountains from Kashmir, by way of Kosala, to the Sākiya country, and so on through Tirhut to Magadha and Anga. There is a great deal more evidence available, both in literature and in the conclusions to be drawn from language, as to tribal migration in India than has yet been collected or analysed.
Mr. Grierson, for instance, has only just recently pointed out the important fact that, even now, the dialects of Rājasthān have a close resemblance to the dialects spoken along the Himalayas not only in Nepal but as far west, at least, as Chambā. This would tend to show that their ancestors must have been living close together when they began their wanderings to the east and the south respectively. Both started from the Northern Panjab, and probably neither migration followed the Ganges route.[Footnote: J.R.A.S., 1901, p. 808.]
Reference http://www.fsnow.com/text/buddhist-india/chapter2.htm
**********************
Note - I got a very important clue that there are number of things common between Rajasthan and Nepal. Common language and words. You find common names of places like Viratnagar, Sankhu etc. Common gotras also. There is a point of further research in this fact.
Regards,
Hi Vinodji, good search. I was reading this book Chapter-2 in which it gives the route of Aryan Migration as under -
It is supposed that the course of Aryan migration lay along the valleys of the Ganges and the Jumna. It cannot have been so simple. We must postulate at least two other lines of equal importance—one down the Indus, round the Gulf of Cutch, and so up to Avanti; and another along the foot of the mountains from Kashmir, by way of Kosala, to the Sākiya country, and so on through Tirhut to Magadha and Anga. There is a great deal more evidence available, both in literature and in the conclusions to be drawn from language, as to tribal migration in India than has yet been collected or analysed.
Mr. Grierson, for instance, has only just recently pointed out the important fact that, even now, the dialects of Rājasthān have a close resemblance to the dialects spoken along the Himalayas not only in Nepal but as far west, at least, as Chambā. This would tend to show that their ancestors must have been living close together when they began their wanderings to the east and the south respectively. Both started from the Northern Panjab, and probably neither migration followed the Ganges route.[Footnote: J.R.A.S., 1901, p. 808.]
Reference http://www.fsnow.com/text/buddhist-india/chapter2.htm
**********************
Note - I got a very important clue that there are number of things common between Rajasthan and Nepal. Common language and words. You find common names of places like Viratnagar, Sankhu etc. Common gotras also. There is a point of further research in this fact.
Regards,
Laxman ji,
For long time I had gut feeling that Nepali and Rajasthani dielect are somehow related. Even Sharma mentions that in his book. Major chunk of my family lives in Nepal and my aunts (two of my aunts from Narender's village) learned Nepali in few months after going there. Its sometimes difficult for a listener to know when they switch between Baagdi and Nepali.
But I dont know how much of this influence is because of migrations of that period or how much becuase of later migrations. Thakurs of Nepal are said to be related to Rajputs and later on marwari went there in huge no. There was another thread started by RK ji(I guess so) about Nepal and Jats.
-vinod
PS: I have a request though, please don't put ji with my name
... please dont mind this, ji soon ke ajeeb sa lagta hai...
For long time I had gut feeling that Nepali and Rajasthani dielect are somehow related. Even Sharma mentions that in his book. Major chunk of my family lives in Nepal and my aunts (two of my aunts from Narender's village) learned Nepali in few months after going there. Its sometimes difficult for a listener to know when they switch between Baagdi and Nepali.
But I dont know how much of this influence is because of migrations of that period or how much becuase of later migrations. Thakurs of Nepal are said to be related to Rajputs and later on marwari went there in huge no. There was another thread started by RK ji(I guess so) about Nepal and Jats.
-vinod
PS: I have a request though, please don't put ji with my name
... please dont mind this, ji soon ke ajeeb sa lagta hai...
S
sktewatia
Guest
Early Jats migrated towards east in India along the foot hills of Himalayas. The simple reasons were that the mouths of river were not so wide and the jungles were not very thick. Thats why we find republican and democratic governments in North-West India and in the Foot-Hills of Himalayas.
Jats were not acquanted with Iron by this time. Their ornaments and even weapons were made of Gold and Bronze as attested by Herodotus later about Central Asian Getae. He also mentions about Horse Sacrifice (Aswamedha Yagna in Ramayna) prevalent among Gatae. He also mentions polyandry etc. Similar was the observation of Romila Thapar. Perhaps due to this reason Smith was of the opinion that Pandavas were non Aryans.
Has any body studied the Original Herodotus writings????? Soka may be excused. I know he did study it.
Shall I scan and send it to you people? Even if someone has studied it then what can you deduct fron it? We all are intelligent people here capable enough to deduce and just not to follow the quotations of Chandrabardayi etc.
Jats were not acquanted with Iron by this time. Their ornaments and even weapons were made of Gold and Bronze as attested by Herodotus later about Central Asian Getae. He also mentions about Horse Sacrifice (Aswamedha Yagna in Ramayna) prevalent among Gatae. He also mentions polyandry etc. Similar was the observation of Romila Thapar. Perhaps due to this reason Smith was of the opinion that Pandavas were non Aryans.
Has any body studied the Original Herodotus writings????? Soka may be excused. I know he did study it.
Shall I scan and send it to you people? Even if someone has studied it then what can you deduct fron it? We all are intelligent people here capable enough to deduce and just not to follow the quotations of Chandrabardayi etc.
S
sktewatia
Guest
Jats gave at least these two epics Ramayna and Mahabharta. No one knows which one is older?
While Thapar and all other's theories is that Mahabharta is older because Mahabharta is in the west and Ramayna follows later in the east.
But usual Brahmnical theories are opposite.
But whichever way you choose you definitely find a Jat in the forefront.
For example whether Hanumann etc. were really Bunders (monkeys)? Jatayu, pakshi? Jambwant , a reechh (Bhalu, Bear)? What about Kale-Ravna got of Chandgi Ram?
Indus valley depicts a three horn-god surrounded by animals. I hope its Siva??????
Why most of Jat clans are closer to Animals/Plants etc.?
While Thapar and all other's theories is that Mahabharta is older because Mahabharta is in the west and Ramayna follows later in the east.
But usual Brahmnical theories are opposite.
But whichever way you choose you definitely find a Jat in the forefront.
For example whether Hanumann etc. were really Bunders (monkeys)? Jatayu, pakshi? Jambwant , a reechh (Bhalu, Bear)? What about Kale-Ravna got of Chandgi Ram?
Indus valley depicts a three horn-god surrounded by animals. I hope its Siva??????
Why most of Jat clans are closer to Animals/Plants etc.?
S
sktewatia
Guest
later Siva of Modern times is depicted by Thapar as a combination of Vedic god Rudra and Tamil god Murugan. However, I feel its just a fantasy! Like all history about Jats is a fantasy!
S
sktewatia
Guest
This combination of Jat and Iron created 16 Janpadas. All, invariably, headed by Jats. Those jungles which could not be cleared by Copper and Bronze were now being cleared by Iron by Jats. Huge surplus food was created now to maintain huge armies even to the extent that even Alexander was reversed just for the fear of Nandas (the Nandal Jats of Rohtak, some of whom positioned themselves at Patliputra).
If you study the rainfall from west to east I feel it varies from 37cm to the greatest in the world in Chirapunji, but I feel it varies gradually????
When the principle of limit and continuity applies from Maths/Physics/Science to any damn thing then why it does not apply in history????????
Similar is my question, again and again, that why Jats are found today in the most fertile/strategic/commercial///// etc. land today? and suddenly they are are not born here. then where had they come from? when,where from?
Why seudo-historians of greatest height are avoiding this question?
If you study the rainfall from west to east I feel it varies from 37cm to the greatest in the world in Chirapunji, but I feel it varies gradually????
When the principle of limit and continuity applies from Maths/Physics/Science to any damn thing then why it does not apply in history????????
Similar is my question, again and again, that why Jats are found today in the most fertile/strategic/commercial///// etc. land today? and suddenly they are are not born here. then where had they come from? when,where from?
Why seudo-historians of greatest height are avoiding this question?
Laxman ji,
Its good to search for Jat history links in puranic genalogy but we have to go beyond it for complete history of Jats. As everyone knows puranas have been unfavorable for Jats and other related tribes(saka, huna, yavana) so their claims shouldn't be taken for granted. I dont know how much convincing Yadu-Jadu-Jat concept will be to other historians, we need more material on Mlechha and Bahika people than vedic genealogy. But its good to have knowledge of these clans line so I scanned vedic genealogy from Majumdar's "Vedic India", it could be used for further ref and we can put it yahoogroup file too....
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~vinods/genealogy.jpg
-vinod
Its good to search for Jat history links in puranic genalogy but we have to go beyond it for complete history of Jats. As everyone knows puranas have been unfavorable for Jats and other related tribes(saka, huna, yavana) so their claims shouldn't be taken for granted. I dont know how much convincing Yadu-Jadu-Jat concept will be to other historians, we need more material on Mlechha and Bahika people than vedic genealogy. But its good to have knowledge of these clans line so I scanned vedic genealogy from Majumdar's "Vedic India", it could be used for further ref and we can put it yahoogroup file too....
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~vinods/genealogy.jpg
-vinod
S
sktewatia
Guest
Machhar Jats started writing as Mathurs. Nangdi Gujjars started writing as Nagars. Jatrann/Thakrann etc. write today as simply Rana. Kakrann will stop tomorrow as soon as he comes to know that its "Crow"'s Rana. Little knowing that it was Kukutsth (the KAK) only which was most responsible for this solar dynasty.
Similar, for lunar Mahabharat Dynasty, This Kaurav/Kharav is there. Little knowing that Kahrvela of Kalinga and Kar of Maharashtra are born from them. I feel that every surname in Maharashtra ends with Kar means hand/hasti/hastinapur in Sanskrit/prakrit, like Hastinapur Kharkhoda in Sonepat and Meerut.
Similar, for lunar Mahabharat Dynasty, This Kaurav/Kharav is there. Little knowing that Kahrvela of Kalinga and Kar of Maharashtra are born from them. I feel that every surname in Maharashtra ends with Kar means hand/hasti/hastinapur in Sanskrit/prakrit, like Hastinapur Kharkhoda in Sonepat and Meerut.
*************************
Tewatia ji, I get very important point from your this comment that Raja Kharavel was from Kharav means Kharab. I had been searching history of Kharavel. Kharavel has mentioned about Kaswan in an inscription that he got victory over Masik town with the help of Kaswan. Raja Kharavela has mentioned about the rule of Kaswan in 2nd century of Vikram samvat—‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Sanskrit as under:
“Kusawanam Kshetriyanam cha Sahayyatavatan prapt masik nagaram”.
This means that the city of 'Masik' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswan' Kshatriyas.
I have added this in Wikipedia also. History is silent about Kharavel. Can you give some reference ? Thanks,
Regards,
History of Raja Kharavela
Kharvel gotra
Kharvel or Khāravela(खारवेल) is a gotra of Jats in India. It is derived from Raja Khāravela (खारवेल), who was a Jat king. [1]
History
Kharavela (Khāravela,खारवेल) (?209 - after 170 BC), was the king of Kalinga. He restored the power of Kalinga after it had been devastated in a war with Maurya King Ashoka. He was the third king of the Chedi dynasty. Not much information is known about this king. The only source of information is his famous Hathigumpha inscription.
After the death of Kanishka, his successors continued to rule north-west India, but their empire was much reduced. About the middle of 3rd century Vasudeva, one of Kanishka's successor, was defeated by Shahpur I of the new Sasanian dynasty of Persia, and from now on the north-west came under Iranian influence. Meanwhile new kingdoms had been set up in India. In Orissa a great conqueror, Khāravela, appeared in the latter half of the 1st century BC; he raided far and wide over India and was a great patron of Jainism; but his empire was short-lived, and we know nothing of his successors. [2]
Hathigumpha inscription
The Hathigumpha inscription mentions that:
In the 2nd year of his reign, he attacked the country if the Musikas, "disregarding Satakarni", the Satavahana king.
In the 8th year of his reign, he attacked Rajagriha in Magadha and forced the Indo-Greek king Demetrius (described as the Yavana named Dimita) to retreat to Mathura.
In the 12th year of his reign, he attacked the king of Uttarapatha. He then attacks the kingdom of Magadha, and in Pataliputra, the capital of the Sunga, makes king "Bahasatimita" (thought to be a Sunga king Brhaspatimitra, or Pusyamitra himself) bow at his feet.
Raja Kharavela has mentioned about the rule of Kaswan in 2nd century of Vikram samvat—‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Sanskrit as under:
“Kusawanam Kshetriyanam cha Sahayyatavatan prapt masik nagaram”. [3]
This means that the city of 'Masik' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswan' Kshatriyas
He seems to have abandoned his throne in the 13th year of his reign, and was succeeded by his son Kudeparisi.
References
1.↑ Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Ādhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
2.↑ AL Basham: The wonder that was India, 2004, Page 62, ISBN 0 330 43909 X
3.↑ Kishori Lal Faujdar:Jat Samaj Monthly Magazine, Agra, January/February (2001) page-6
Kharvel gotra
Kharvel or Khāravela(खारवेल) is a gotra of Jats in India. It is derived from Raja Khāravela (खारवेल), who was a Jat king. [1]
History
Kharavela (Khāravela,खारवेल) (?209 - after 170 BC), was the king of Kalinga. He restored the power of Kalinga after it had been devastated in a war with Maurya King Ashoka. He was the third king of the Chedi dynasty. Not much information is known about this king. The only source of information is his famous Hathigumpha inscription.
After the death of Kanishka, his successors continued to rule north-west India, but their empire was much reduced. About the middle of 3rd century Vasudeva, one of Kanishka's successor, was defeated by Shahpur I of the new Sasanian dynasty of Persia, and from now on the north-west came under Iranian influence. Meanwhile new kingdoms had been set up in India. In Orissa a great conqueror, Khāravela, appeared in the latter half of the 1st century BC; he raided far and wide over India and was a great patron of Jainism; but his empire was short-lived, and we know nothing of his successors. [2]
Hathigumpha inscription
The Hathigumpha inscription mentions that:
In the 2nd year of his reign, he attacked the country if the Musikas, "disregarding Satakarni", the Satavahana king.
In the 8th year of his reign, he attacked Rajagriha in Magadha and forced the Indo-Greek king Demetrius (described as the Yavana named Dimita) to retreat to Mathura.
In the 12th year of his reign, he attacked the king of Uttarapatha. He then attacks the kingdom of Magadha, and in Pataliputra, the capital of the Sunga, makes king "Bahasatimita" (thought to be a Sunga king Brhaspatimitra, or Pusyamitra himself) bow at his feet.
Raja Kharavela has mentioned about the rule of Kaswan in 2nd century of Vikram samvat—‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Sanskrit as under:
“Kusawanam Kshetriyanam cha Sahayyatavatan prapt masik nagaram”. [3]
This means that the city of 'Masik' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswan' Kshatriyas
He seems to have abandoned his throne in the 13th year of his reign, and was succeeded by his son Kudeparisi.
References
1.↑ Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Ādhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
2.↑ AL Basham: The wonder that was India, 2004, Page 62, ISBN 0 330 43909 X
3.↑ Kishori Lal Faujdar:Jat Samaj Monthly Magazine, Agra, January/February (2001) page-6