Delhi High Court legalizes homosexuality!

Are you agree with the Court's Decision?


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Shailender and Kapil, now that Anju has started a new thread, pls post comments there......
But, it is amazing why no discussion on the legal aspect of the HC judgement..
 
Why no technical debate???...

That's because a common man who is ultimately gonna be impacted by any such governmental decree's is not usually a lawyer or a legal-judgments’ scholar! :confused:

That's also why in all fairness the issues being discussed here are on the very basic, layman terms... and surely if one still wants to initiate or make it more of a factual-details sorta debate then so be it; but don't be surprised if there isn't some mad rush to break the door-of-this-thread down with technical- and-legal-jargon at the event of such a scenario!...

So, going back to the topic: I disagree with the useless excercise simply because come to think of it overturning an ancient law like that (other than the showcase stuttering of peacock feathers- no pun intended!) is gonna achieve absolutely nothing... it would not change a mentality that has survived around for more than those measely 150 years; and lastly but not the least - if anything it would create a nuisance value of mass protests (vandalizing, mob-instinct) where easily lakhs of innocents could lose property and worse still... maybe even lives;.... all over again.

We Indians have a habit of making a mountain out of a mole-hill and this distraction could exactly be what the vagrant public needs right now to start another agenda!
 
Hijras are number 1 haramkhor.
They were probably trying to extort money the regular gays, lesbians with threats of throwing tatti, peshab at them at the rally.


wht is it tht u do??....where do u come up with such stuff??...its totally hilarious!!

btw the point i was trying to make>> with all the hype surrounding the judgement concerning LGBT community...the community itself is divided..
 
Why do we bring in culture and religion into it. who says that anything culture or religion says is right??.. purdah is also a part of culture for some people, not letting girls to go out for work is also culture for others. Legal system works on logic and what's wrong or right, harmful or harmless cannot be defined by culture or religion. People have right to live their life as they want as long as they are not doing any harm to others. They have right to be happy.
I welcome the court decision. It may not immediately change the mindset of society, but atleast now no one will be able to put these people in jail. one can always choose not to care about the society but atleast he/she will not be legally a criminal.. that's good enough. One can always hope that society will also slowly start accepting them.
 
Another writ petition before SC which claims:
If gay sex can be permitted, then prostitution should also be legalized, since it could be as much a consensual act between two adults in a private place.

What say?
 
another writ petition before sc which claims:
if gay sex can be permitted, then prostitution should also be legalized, since it could be as much a consensual act between two adults in a private place.

what say?



welcome thought............


Agar yehi haal raha to ek din sc ise bhi legal kar degi.........

Fir jaise hotel me jane par khaane ki menu milta hai aise hi kothe par jane se unke bhi rate cards milenge...........
 
welcome thought............


Agar yehi haal raha to ek din sc ise bhi legal kar degi.........

Fir jaise hotel me jane par khaane ki menu milta hai aise hi kothe par jane se unke bhi rate cards milenge...........

Sandeep bhai aapko kya lagta hai.....prostitution and gay sex iss law k pass hone se pahle nahi hota tha???........that was also happening before 377 and it is also being now....what do u think govt does not know anything abt this....govt know very well that tens of thousands of prostitutes work in india.

i m not getting what is wrong for that type of people if they r not doing any harm to the other folk. they should also have the rights to live their life in their own terms.:)
 
So, going back to the topic: I disagree with the useless excercise simply because come to think of it overturning an ancient law like that (other than the showcase stuttering of peacock feathers- no pun intended!) is gonna achieve absolutely nothing... it would not change a mentality that has survived around for more than those measely 150 years; and lastly but not the least - if anything it would create a nuisance value of mass protests (vandalizing, mob-instinct) where easily lakhs of innocents could lose property and worse still... maybe even lives;.... all over again.

Laws are not meant to change mentalities. They are meant to govern the society and ensure orderly conduct. By definition, they don't have any place in bedroom. What people do in their bedrooms without harming anyone (adding this obv. disclaimer to include all sorts of illegal activities that can be done/planned in bedrooms) is not govt.'s business. You can't keep unjust laws just because doing away with them is not going to change anything. What sort of argument is that? Ditto for mass protests- there is a protest on everything in India- so why cite that as a reason to keep a law on homosexual acts? You don't like people vandalizing or disturbing public order- I am fully with you. Put all people causing ruckus- gays, heteros, eunuchs, etc. in jail- using laws meant to maintain public order and not bedroom order. But the fact that the protest was unruly (I am not sure it was, was it? I don't think anyone lost property) doesn't make the cause of the protest wrong.

We Indians have a habit of making a mountain out of a mole-hill and this distraction could exactly be what the vagrant public needs right now to start another agenda!

Fully agree with this. The learned judges took a decision as per the law of the land. They didn't have any intention in giving public an agenda it can well do without. A mountain certainly need not be made out of a mole-hill for doing away with an archaic, unjust and un-required law.
 
Another writ petition before SC which claims:
If gay sex can be permitted, then prostitution should also be legalized, since it could be as much a consensual act between two adults in a private place.

What say?

Would be interesting to see how SC answers this. I see a big difference between the two. Prostitution is about commercialising a sexual act. It is about ability of buying/selling human bodies. The consensual nature is necessary, but not sufficient in answering the legality as other factors are included.

Having said that, I see no reason why prostitution shouldn't be legalized. No govt. ever has had any intention to prevent people from buying/selling bodies for sexual acts. It goes on under everyone's eyes in every town and city. All the law does is to give govt. agencies like police to harass certain citizens, who become less equal than others because of such laws.
 
Laws are not meant to change mentalities. They are meant to govern the society and ensure orderly conduct. By definition, they don't have any place in bedroom. What people do in their bedrooms without harming anyone (adding this obv. disclaimer to include all sorts of illegal activities that can be done/planned in bedrooms) is not govt.'s business. You can't keep unjust laws just because doing away with them is not going to change anything. What sort of argument is that? Ditto for mass protests- there is a protest on everything in India- so why cite that as a reason to keep a law on homosexual acts? You don't like people vandalizing or disturbing public order- I am fully with you. Put all people causing ruckus- gays, heteros, eunuchs, etc. in jail- using laws meant to maintain public order and not bedroom order. But the fact that the protest was unruly (I am not sure it was, was it? I don't think anyone lost property) doesn't make the cause of the protest wrong.

Fully agree with this. The learned judges took a decision as per the law of the land. They didn't have any intention in giving public an agenda it can well do without. A mountain certainly need not be made out of a mole-hill for doing away with an archaic, unjust and un-required law.

...Spinning our wheels here, Kapil; simply put 'unjust' as per what of your definitions??? Unjust because now folks are gonna be more comfy in their bedrooms? Or because we have a gay beaten up, locked away and black-mailed everyday in India? [I seriously doubt if you read of such specific sort of hate-crimes particularly in the Indian-subcontinent newspapers, and/or on a daily basis!?!] Then what unjust laws? Because some 80plus or so countries still hold homosexuality illegal and we ...well we want to be, or at least want to sound, progressive then those bloody buggers?
Additionally; Seedy parks and their midnight prowlers, patrons, seedy characters, involved in shady dealings ....I am sure everyone knows that our urban cities are full of it... so okay, get these folks some proper platform and legal rights? Sure...] ;)
In any case; as I had already mentioned and I am sure you agree - these same 'learned judges' :D of yours surely need to take care of a whole slew of real-time issues, unjust laws (and Police reform) before they light the haystack with a free-for-all in 'their-law-of-the-land' on some lost cause! (I say lost cause because ...also mentioned earlier... because I fear it would do nothing to an average Indian mindset and in a 'land' where even men and women can get beaten up for holding hands in public, I hardly see what this rukus would ultimately achieve...change the thinking of 'folks policing' all this, the bajarang-dals who still beat up women in bars, their mindset maybe, I guess? :confused: newsflash- We already had laws for them, remember?...:D but having said that - look, it's a done deal, so for all intent and purposes only making a point AFTER, ...not that your agreeing with me or not, shall change anything in the new law pertaining to section 377 in any case! :) Peace!)
 
Another writ petition before SC which claims:
If gay sex can be permitted, then prostitution should also be legalized, since it could be as much a consensual act between two adults in a private place.

What say?

Good one!
Like to see the response on this from court and members as well.
 
...Spinning our wheels here, Kapil; simply put 'unjust' as per what of your definitions??? Unjust because now folks are gonna be more comfy in their bedrooms? Or because we have a gay beaten up, locked away and black-mailed everyday in India? [I seriously doubt if you read of such specific sort of hate-crimes particularly in the Indian-subcontinent newspapers, and/or on a daily basis!?!] Then what unjust laws? Because some 80plus or so countries still hold homosexuality illegal and we ...well we want to be, or at least want to sound, progressive then those bloody buggers?
Additionally; Seedy parks and their midnight prowlers, patrons, seedy characters, involved in shady dealings ....I am sure everyone knows that our urban cities are full of it... so okay, get these folks some proper platform and legal rights? Sure...] ;)
In any case; as I had already mentioned and I am sure you agree - these same 'learned judges' :D of yours surely need to take care of a whole slew of real-time issues, unjust laws (and Police reform) before they light the haystack with a free-for-all in 'their-law-of-the-land' on some lost cause! (I say lost cause because ...also mentioned earlier... because I fear it would do nothing to an average Indian mindset and in a 'land' where even men and women can get beaten up for holding hands in public, I hardly see what this rukus would ultimately achieve...change the thinking of 'folks policing' all this, the bajarang-dals who still beat up women in bars, their mindset maybe, I guess? :confused: newsflash- We already had laws for them, remember?...:D but having said that - look, it's a done deal, so for all intent and purposes only making a point AFTER, ...not that your agreeing with me or not, shall change anything in the new law pertaining to section 377 in any case! :) Peace!)

Shailendra, I see 3 main points you have raised- question of "un-just", level of importance and the impact in terms of actual change or ruckus caused. As you said, it is a done deal. Neverthless, this is why I think it is the right deal.

1. Unjust: It is not unjust as per my definitions. It is unjust as per Articles 21,14 and 15 of the Indian constitution (as ruled by the court). We have to accept some definition of justice. There can be lenghty philosophical debates on that, but to cut a long story short, we can accept the Indian constitution given that it is fairly robust. To quote the court further on this matter, "The inclusiveness that Indian society traditionally displayed, literally in every aspect, is manifest in recognizing a role in society for everyone. Those perceived by the majority as ‘deviants’ or ‘different’ are not on that score excluded or ostracized."..........“In our view, Indian Constitutional law does not permit the statutory criminal law to be held captive by the popular misconception of the LGBTs are. It cannot be forgotten that discrimination is anit-thesis of equality and it is the recognition of equality that will foster the dignity of every individual.”

I am not sure of the exact number of countries that explicitly allow/disallow it. But I came across this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
Clearly, the countries where it is manifestly illegal (mostly sub-Saharan African and Islamic theocracies) have not set the ground ablaze in matters of justice. I don't think countries where women are flogged/stoned if they show their faces in public are an example worth emulating atleast as far as justice is concerned. I am sure you'd agree.

No legal rights have been granted to seedy characters and midnight prowlers as part of this judgment. The court explicitly took note of your earlier legitimate concern of child molestation, etc. when it ruled “Section 377 can longer be used to arrest, prosecute or harass homosexuals. Instead, its application will be limited to cases where the victim is a child or an unwilling adult.”

2. On the issue of importance, it is really a matter of an individual's perspective. I didn't give a damn about this law. Neither did you. But a law-abiding citizen, who became criminal just because of his different sexual orientation must have found it more important than most things. And it is not as if the court showed any over-eagerness in dealing with this case. Original case was filed in 2001 and was thrown out once, until SC asked the HC to hear it on merit. Moreover, courts have their own bureaucracy through which the cases trickle through. It is not as if they sit and decide that okay, this is an important case, let's solve it now.

3. And as for ruckus, that is on everything in India. Let's be clear- the courts didn't cause the ruckus. They just ruled on a question of law as part of their normal business. The judge should only take cognizance of the 'justice' element while making a ruling instead of worrying about the ruckus factor. Because in that case, we might as well be ruled by the mob. Similarly, the court can't influence or even bother about changing mindsets. They have done their job. The mindsets will take their time changing. Sati, child marriage, dowry, etc. didn't stop immediately after they were made illegal. But the law was a catalyst for change. Surely, the courts couldn't have thought that why bother since people are going to continue anyways.
 
A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior, has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[2][3

A new review made in 2009 of existing research showed that Same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species.[7]

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Are you implying that it is alright for humans to adopt the lifestyles of other animal species.

If so, this would be totally anti-evolutionary.

If we try to reverse evolution it will lead to the decimation of the human race. And that is what homosexuality is about. It does not lead to procreation.

Yes! there are ways to reproduce by other than natural means. But again, we are not crops in a field waiting to be cultivated. We are human beings. There is a certain way of life that we adopted that led to the flourishing of human races. Homosexuality is antithetical to that.

It has become sexy in social circles to propagate Homosexuality. Somehow it is bigoted for someone to have a more traditional opinion on this issue. WHATEVER THE F**K HAPPENED TO TOLERANCE?

Tolerance has to be a two-way street. If homosexuals expect any tolerance from traditionalists like me, then they have to show us some tolerance too.
 
... Hmmm you still missed the whole point:
I am sure the women who get publicly thrashed in pubs and the other 'legal' and law-abiding citizens/man-woman couples that get routinely beaten up in parks or public places (by our same over-zealous Police itself, mind you) of our own great Nation can tell one what to do with a print-out of all these well sounding, nicely-worded legal quotations and sectional mumbo-jumbo of the new law! :D ...
[yeah, we really are a beacon of blazing firsts in matters of law.... but to who? These same backward African-Islamist countries, I guess?] Sure we can now conveniently stand next to all the progressive nations and say, look we changed it too.... just don't come in and look too closely!
But then really who are we kidding, Kapil... (The law may be a done deal,... BUT frankly anyone wanna take a cross-section and whet the issues in properly?; or you really wanna take a sneak-peek about the public perception and/or its mindset??? Well, take a look at the bars on the top of this thread...)
I rest my case! :o
 
... Hmmm you still missed the whole point:

I guess this is something I should say! I was trying to answer your points with logical arguments. And you are continuing with what is "besides the point"...:).

As far as this topic is concerned, I don't care what the poll here says. Or what public perception is. Or who gets beaten on the roads. Not saying it is not a problem. But that what does it have to do with the correctness of the court decision? If majority was always right, we didn't need no judiciary. In terms of legality/morality, a correct decision was made. Which is the only point I am trying to make :). Nothing less, nothing more.
 
I guess this is something I should say! I was trying to answer your points with logical arguments. And you are continuing with what is "besides the point"...:).

As far as this topic is concerned, I don't care what the poll here says. Or what public perception is. Or who gets beaten on the roads. Not saying it is not a problem. But that what does it have to do with the correctness of the court decision? If majority was always right, we didn't need no judiciary. In terms of legality/morality, a correct decision was made. Which is the only point I am trying to make :). Nothing less, nothing more.

Point taken... ;)
 
If we try to reverse evolution it will lead to the decimation of the human race. And that is what homosexuality is about. It does not lead to procreation.

Hi Sumit- not commenting on the closeness or lack of it with animal behavior. But homosexuals are also homo-sapiens. Their homosexual tendencies and the genes that determine the same have also gone through the same evolutionary "survival of the fittest" process. Else there won't have been any homosexuals post-evolution. Hence, one can't term their existence as reverse evolution.

Yes, it is an obvious point that human race won't last if everyone became homosexual given that we reproduce sexually. But there is no data to suggest that homosexuality is on the rise. And nothing whatsoever to suggest that it has reached a critical point where it can threaten the survival of human race. What is on the rise is the visibility of homosexuals, which is not pleasing to even my tastes. But that is a very small price for creating a just/liberal society.
 
Are you implying that it is alright for humans to adopt the lifestyles of other animal species.

If so, this would be totally anti-evolutionary.

If we try to reverse evolution it will lead to the decimation of the human race. And that is what homosexuality is about. It does not lead to procreation.

Yes! there are ways to reproduce by other than natural means. But again, we are not crops in a field waiting to be cultivated. We are human beings. There is a certain way of life that we adopted that led to the flourishing of human races. Homosexuality is antithetical to that.

It has become sexy in social circles to propagate Homosexuality. Somehow it is bigoted for someone to have a more traditional opinion on this issue. WHATEVER THE F**K HAPPENED TO TOLERANCE?

Ditto!...

I think there so many similar social (do I dare call them 'evils') that exist; BUT then each to his own, isn't it?...
Some of the more debatable 'consensual' ones have already been mentioned here amply; but who is say if you agree with one you cannot also agree with another one in that mix?
... (on a side note: for example same-sex marriages, abortion, mercy-deaths etc. are already being debated to death in most countries...)

But then the premise of the thread was simply do you agree or disagree (with this one issue in particular)...

The results are up, folks!
 
Are you implying that it is alright for humans to adopt the lifestyles of other animal species.

If so, this would be totally anti-evolutionary.

If we try to reverse evolution it will lead to the decimation of the human race. And that is what homosexuality is about. It does not lead to procreation.
Stop stop stop ... you sound like Pat Robertson. Why should you care about those Christiany messages. I am not a big fan of mythology or religion... but I like the fact that our ancestors thought outside the box ... Hinduism/buddhism is a more evolved religion that others ... and BTW it is also silent on homosexuality. I think I might have jumped the gun here .. I am not sure if thats where you were coming from. I take it back.

Yes! there are ways to reproduce by other than natural means. But again, we are not crops in a field waiting to be cultivated. We are human beings. There is a certain way of life that we adopted that led to the flourishing of human races. Homosexuality is antithetical to that.
Dont get me started on the achievements and flourishing of the human race. Murdering and raping has been the most prominent tradition of the human race. Most humans who have advanced the human race are 1 in a million and they all have been pacifists.
It has become sexy in social circles to propagate Homosexuality. Somehow it is bigoted for someone to have a more traditional opinion on this issue. WHATEVER THE F**K HAPPENED TO TOLERANCE?

Tolerance has to be a two-way street. If homosexuals expect any tolerance from traditionalists like me, then they have to show us some tolerance too.
Sumit .. that was just a factual reply to some guy who was saying otherwise. He was also talking about animal species.

All I am gonna say is ... I dont give a crap about homos. But I donot hate them (except hijras - they are a nuisance), I dont think they should get any special rights ... just what everyone else has. I know some of them act up and are annoying .. but so are non homos - like any large group of humans is - some are annoying ... some are quiet .. some are smart ... some are dumb etc etc.
 
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It has become sexy in social circles to propagate Homosexuality. Somehow it is bigoted for someone to have a more traditional opinion on this issue. WHATEVER THE F**K HAPPENED TO TOLERANCE?

Tolerance has to be a two-way street. If homosexuals expect any tolerance from traditionalists like me, then they have to show us some tolerance too.

Tolerance does have to be a two-way street. Indeed, it is no one's argument that it is bigoted to look at homosexuality in -ve light. Atleast not mine, as then I'd myself be bigoted :)

I believe people are just saying that a correct decision was made by the court. To paraphrase a famous quote on free speech, "You may not like homosexuals, but you should still still defend their right to exist peacefully".

By the way, I am not sure how homosexuality can be propogated. Unlike religion, it comes from a person's hormones. It should be very very hard to make someone homo (by choice and not by force), if not entirely impossible.
 
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