Women empowerment Solution or Problem?

[kapdal]

BTW game theory & linear programming were my fev. topics.

Sudeep, taking cognizance of your subsequent 2 replies to Brahm (and thanks for that), I would rather not respond to most of this post, but only on the bit on game theory. Since that is a favorite subject for you (nice choice by the way), I am sure you'd have appreciation for Prisoner's Dilemma and its non-zero sum payoffs. So let's not go for the sub-optimal Nash equilibrium by not cooperating and instead maximize the pay-offs from cooperation.

For those who may not know and are interested, prisoner's dilemma is a very interesting game theory concept with applications in real life. You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

 

[sudeepdular]

Sudeep, taking cognizance of your subsequent 2 replies to Brahm (and thanks for that), I would rather not respond to most of this post, but only on the bit on game theory. Since that is a favorite subject for you (nice choice by the way), I am sure you'd have appreciation for Prisoner's Dilemma and its non-zero sum payoffs. So let's not go for the sub-optimal Nash equilibrium by not cooperating and instead maximize the pay-offs from cooperation.

For those who may not know and are interested, prisoner's dilemma is a very interesting game theory concept with applications in real life. You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Yes, Kapil that’s why I didn’t want this game to end up on Zero sum where one’s gain is another’s loss. My Plus will always be another’s minus. 2 + -2 =0. Thanks guys for your cooperation, you all are fantastic players. Will play this game someday somewhere on another thread with good spirit….

 

[shailendra]

Tsk...Tsk!

LOL!... Very-mucho interesting!
Aare bhaiyee tae phaer phainally ude koye bhi chorra ya chorri 'empower-impuver' hoya kae naa...

 

[choudharyneelam]

Everybody talks about women empowerment and presence of equal number of women in each and every field. I Am having issue with this and feel consequence of this are

1. number of nuclear family increased many times.

All beacuse of the type of choice of guy as described in Brahm Sir's copy pasted mail

2. Lesser Jobs for men and so lesser families having at least one earning member.

Women are not to be blamed as its the lack of efficiency/qualities that makes the competition tough. Only deserving candidate gets the vacant seat.

3. More issues in Husband and wife. Both are equal, who will sacrifice and why.

This is all about mutual understanding. Both needs to understand n respect each other.

4. Men don't respect Women any more they treat them as competitor. (forget man stand up when a woman is standing in a bus now a days).

Even women also don't respect men many times. Men also needs equal attention n value. Competition helps both to grow more but it should be healthy one.


Rest, for empowerment, women has to raise her voice herself.....nobody is going to express on her part n there r very few men who encourage d women to come up to their equal level.

 

[kapdal]

Only deserving candidate gets the vacant seat.

That is not always necessary. Go to any business school and you'd see the fairer sex being favored by most recruiters, even when there may be more suitable male candidates. I am sure the same happens in recruitment for many white collar jobs. Not that women are to blame for this. It is just a natural move to equilibrium- lesser women at work places and lesser women in recruitment pools means there is a greater demand for them.

PS: Don't consider this as a stand against women empowerment, whatever it is supposed to mean on this thread.

 

[anilsinghd]

That is not always necessary. Go to any business school and you'd see the fairer sex being favored by most recruiters, even when there may be more suitable male candidates. I am sure the same happens in recruitment for many white collar jobs. Not that women are to blame for this. It is just a natural move to equilibrium- lesser women at work places and lesser women in recruitment pools means there is a greater demand for them.

PS: Don't consider this as a stand against women empowerment, whatever it is supposed to mean on this thread.

Kapil , you missed the Day 0 at the IIT campuses ! DB comes to ma mind , you want to add ?

 

[kapdal]

Kapil , you missed the Day 0 at the IIT campuses ! DB comes to ma mind , you want to add ?

Banks are probably the most notorious for that. There were some banks that apparently shortlisted all the girls of the batch. And then there were some who made it so obvious by shortlisting guys with names like Jeni and Kiran...

 

[choudharyneelam]

That is not always necessary. Go to any business school and you'd see the fairer sex being favored by most recruiters.

I do agree but still unmein ye extra thing dekhi jaati hai....and everybody prefers the beauty+brain.....aapke paas looks nahin hain to why you getting jealous

When guys lose some opportunity which is grabbed by some best suitable girl then they try to point out these differences only....hehehe.....poor guys....Try your best....Good Luck!!

 

[kapdal]

I do agree but still unmein ye extra thing dekhi jaati hai....and everybody prefers the beauty+brain.....aapke paas looks nahin hain to why you getting jealous

When guys lose some opportunity which is grabbed by some best suitable girl then they try to point out these differences only....hehehe.....poor guys....Try your best....Good Luck!!

Neelam, I don't think you got the point. We didn't send pictures with CVs. And hardly any girl had "Ms India" or even "Miss Chandigarh" on her CV. So no one knew who looked like what (unless you are saying all girls are beautiful and all guys are ugly). Though some girls did drop clever hints like "walked the ramp" at so and so fashion show. When you see a girl with B- resume being shortlisted over a guy with A+ resume, you know what is happening. And it becomes hilarious when a guy who didn't give himself half a chance for a day 0 shortlist got shortlisted because his name was a common girl name. Somehow, middle-aged executives with wives and kids, strongly prefer to have female interns and assistants. Ironically, the "female" advantage goes away when a female is doing the shortlist, but since men outnumber women significantly in workforce, this doesn't happen enough. Also note that I was not arguing about the right or wrong of it- we did find it absolutely wrong when we were at the receiving end- but now I can just put it down to "natural tendencies".

By the way, your "logic" as such would fly in the face of any demand for equality by womenfolk. If you can make a case for beauty in a job where it is neither required nor advantageous, then how'd you argue about "equal pay for equal work" in a job that actually requires brawn, such as construction?

 

[vicky84]

That is not always necessary. Go to any business school and you'd see the fairer sex being favored by most recruiters, even when there may be more suitable male candidates. I am sure the same happens in recruitment for many white collar jobs. Not that women are to blame for this. It is just a natural move to equilibrium- lesser women at work places and lesser women in recruitment pools means there is a greater demand for them.

PS: Don't consider this as a stand against women empowerment, whatever it is supposed to mean on this thread.

Not agree with you..trend is reverse in white collar jobs...well you are right in saying that lesser women at work places and lesser women in recruitment pool..but that doesnt mean that there is a great demand for women..

 

[choudharyneelam]

Neelam, I don't think you got the point. We didn't send pictures with CVs. And hardly any girl had "Ms India" or even "Miss Chandigarh" on her CV. So no one knew who looked like what (unless you are saying all girls are beautiful and all guys are ugly). Though some girls did drop clever hints like "walked the ramp" at so and so fashion show. When you see a girl with B- resume being shortlisted over a guy with A+ resume, you know what is happening. And it becomes hilarious when a guy who didn't give himself half a chance for a day 0 shortlist got shortlisted because his name was a common girl name. Somehow, middle-aged executives with wives and kids, strongly prefer to have female interns and assistants. Ironically, the "female" advantage goes away when a female is doing the shortlist, but since men outnumber women significantly in workforce, this doesn't happen enough. Also note that I was not arguing about the right or wrong of it- we did find it absolutely wrong when we were at the receiving end- but now I can just put it down to "natural tendencies".

By the way, your "logic" as such would fly in the face of any demand for equality by womenfolk. If you can make a case for beauty in a job where it is neither required nor advantageous, then how'd you argue about "equal pay for equal work" in a job that actually requires brawn, such as construction?

You r rite, normally people don't send the pic with resume...but nowadays, in reputed schools pics of ladies is required alongwith their CV...so wahan definitely boys ko struggle karna pad raha hai n they r getting frustrated.

I can't deny that a middle aged executive looks for female assitant at most places. But if you are going to make out the differences like that then let me also tell how guys enter into the jobs. They have good approaches with good amount of loan/ money taken from outside through which they enter into the govt. jobs (m not talking abt private sector)...they only have to do the formality of sitting in the written examination n rest of the work is all done. Thode chakkar kaatne padte hain, haath-pair jodne padte hain kisi ke aage...that's it.

That what you said about A+ and B type resume then I only want to tell it is not you who can mark the grade. HR is there to look into it n decide accordingly. One of my female cousin missed the promotion where she proved to be better as compared to the guy placed at her position just because of the threat of new vacancy as they were thinking she can leave the organisation any time after marriage (which was not yet decided). So, a girl also has to face these things at job.

 

[kapdal]

You r rite, normally people don't send the pic with resume...but nowadays, in reputed schools pics of ladies is required alongwith their CV...so wahan definitely boys ko struggle karna pad raha hai n they r getting frustrated.

I can't deny that a middle aged executive looks for female assitant at most places. But if you are going to make out the differences like that then let me also tell how guys enter into the jobs. They have good approaches with good amount of loan/ money taken from outside through which they enter into the govt. jobs (m not talking abt private sector)...they only have to do the formality of sitting in the written examination n rest of the work is all done. Thode chakkar kaatne padte hain, haath-pair jodne padte hain kisi ke aage...that's it.

That what you said about A+ and B type resume then I only want to tell it is not you who can mark the grade. HR is there to look into it n decide accordingly. One of my female cousin missed the promotion where she proved to be better as compared to the guy placed at her position just because of the threat of new vacancy as they were thinking she can leave the organisation any time after marriage (which was not yet decided). So, a girl also has to face these things at job.

Neelam, I think you have assumed that I am against "womenfolk" or something like that. Let me clarify once again- I am not. I started with arguing against your one point that "only deserving candidate gets the vacant seat" with examples on how undeserving women get through at expense of men in many jobs. What you have given above are also examples against your own point of deserving getting the vacant seat. By the way, how is the bit about approach/money restricted to men, don't you think that women do that as well?

As for resumes, I would have easily seen over 1000 in my life. When you see so many, you will always compare. At B-school, we even had to grade them when we had to shortlist candidates for club selections or in our capacity as mentors to junior students. And then in our business here, we do the shortlist, the HR just does the operational work.

Women losing out on opportunities because of marriage, pregnancy, etc. is definitely true. That is why we have lesser women in the recrutiment pool.

By the way, which reputed schools are talking about? I think it would be rather against reputation to ask women to put their pics on CV for a management job!! I believe I have been to reasonably good schools and we never had this practise.

 

[kapdal]

Not agree with you..trend is reverse in white collar jobs...well you are right in saying that lesser women at work places and lesser women in recruitment pool..but that doesnt mean that there is a great demand for women..

As you can see, I gave a reason alongside what I said. You may also want to elaborate on your reason rather than just registering your disagreement?

 

[anilsinghd]

Let me clarify once again- I am not. I started with arguing against your one point that "only deserving candidate gets the vacant seat" with examples on how undeserving women get through at expense of men in many jobs. What you have given above are also examples against your own point of deserving getting the vacant seat. .

On the money.

Precisely the way discussions go beyond what they were started with and people actually forget what they were debating to start with!


On a lighter note , boys vs girls is always interesting , I side with Kapil

 

[annch]

Off the top of my head, I can think of two reasons why a woman is preferred over a man for a job-

1) Lesser women at work force: Companies promote equal representation to gender, race, nationality, etc, as a way to differentiate from other companies in their annual reports.
2) Surveys indicate that a woman is payed less than a man for the same job.

Not very flattering for my gender, but hey, anything for empowerment!!

That is not always necessary. Go to any business school and you'd see the fairer sex being favored by most recruiters, even when there may be more suitable male candidates. I am sure the same happens in recruitment for many white collar jobs. Not that women are to blame for this. It is just a natural move to equilibrium- lesser women at work places and lesser women in recruitment pools means there is a greater demand for them.

PS: Don't consider this as a stand against women empowerment, whatever it is supposed to mean on this thread.

 

[vicky84]

As you can see, I gave a reason alongside what I said. You may also want to elaborate on your reason rather than just registering your disagreement?

Well there have been many initiatives from Government to support the Woman empowerment and hiring trend of course suggest the same.. but what if a woman goes on a maternity leave for 1 yr....

I have got a very good example to support that...One of my friend from India has moved to Sydney to replace a woman who is on maternity leave for 1 yr...and she also get paid for the same period of time...

For an employer this is a load on the payroll...isnt it...as well as load on the workforce...

What happens if an employer recruits a girl and chances of her getting married are really high...then she would either demand for relocation...or she would leave because of the curcumstances...

And if we look at the number of well paid jobs... lot of debates have been around on the issue that men are highly paid in compare to women....men get more promotions than women...

 

[choudharyneelam]

Neelam, I think you have assumed that I am against "womenfolk" or something like that..

Haan kucch aisa hi laga tha....but now I think u r not so.

By the way, how is the bit about approach/money restricted to men, don't you think that women do that as well?.

Very very few cases as compared to guys

As for resumes, I would have easily seen over 1000 in my life. When you see so many, you will always compare. At B-school, we even had to grade them when we had to shortlist candidates for club selections or in our capacity as mentors to junior students. And then in our business here, we do the shortlist, the HR just does the operational work..

I agree

By the way, which reputed schools are talking about? I believe I have been to reasonably good schools and we never had this practise.

Now I don't remember the names of those two good schools.....one is in Delhi n other in Gurgaon for which I was about to apply but my plan was changed for some other job.

 

[kapdal]

Now I don't remember the names of those two good schools.....one is in Delhi n other in Gurgaon for which I was about to apply but my plan was changed for some other job.

Oh, I think you are talking about admission to B-schools here (MDI probably). Admission form mein photo to har jagah chaahiye hota hai. I guess for admin. purposes. But I hope the professors are not deciding who to admit and who not to based on the photos...

I was talking about recruitment once you are in the B-school.

 

[choudharyneelam]

Oh, I think you are talking about admission to B-schools here (MDI probably). Admission form mein photo to har jagah chaahiye hota hai. I guess for admin. purposes. But I hope the professors are not deciding who to admit and who not to based on the photos...

I was talking about recruitment once you are in the B-school.

You are such a cartoon..hehehe...let me tell u, I have completed my bachelors, B.Ed. n now masters also.....I was talking abt d job application.

Admission lene ke liye maine har jagah pics di hain.....I also know that it is mandatory....funny guy

 

[samarkadian]

Over thinking, over analysis, over proving/justifying is a good way to empower each other, You know, what I mean, heh?