What is Important- Certificates or Knowledge or Both ?

[choudharyneelam]

I know everybody will say ‘Both’…………….. but………….. first read the below and reply to my every question.

When a person acquire some knowledge then only one gets the certificate of degree which helps a person to apply for jobs according to organization’s basic requirements. But my friends say that practical work performed in the organizations is very different from that we learn n write in our examinations to get some degree. A few of my frens say that theory work assist us to apply the knowledge practically, still there are few things which we learn on job only. I agreed to their statements as they have greater amount of experience. But few things came to my mind.

Suppose, if a person has the knowledge but not degree then can he get the job…..as before asking the incumbent to get on work educational proofs are to be submitted. If he proves himself knowledgeable then is it still necessary to handover the photocopies of degree or diplomas attained. If not, then why we put our efforts to get the certificates in our hand to show it to others whenever required.

If one agree to say that showing certificates is not mandatory then why companies put-up their ads for recruitment asking for particular qualification. Also, why we put efforts to write exams to get the degree. It would be more interesting if we just read the books, discuss few knowledgeable things n rest is left on the training cell as they work for that only…..i.e. to train the new incumbent. Isn’t it?

Sometimes, to complete the formalities people produce fake certificates n get the job. Do companies really check these cases? Sometimes, even these formalities are not done as some common link is there which helps the employee to get the job.

So, now explain which is important n why. Also tell how transparent is the recruitment system.

 

[sunillathwal]

Suppose, if a person has the knowledge but not degree then can he get the job…..as before asking the incumbent to get on work educational proofs are to be submitted. If he proves himself knowledgeable then is it still necessary to handover the photocopies of degree or diplomas attained. If not, then why we put our efforts to get the certificates in our hand to show it to others whenever required.

It is true that most of things we learned during a degree course are practically useless. I mean learning partial differential equations or chemical reactions as a major or minor credit during degree course does not help a software engineer!!
During trainig period of job, he/she learns the basic skills/software etc. required for the job at hand and continue to do so in his/her career. i know ppl who did their B Tech in Chemical Engi and working as software engineers and ppl with PhD in Theoretical Physics and working in finance!!

But that does not mean degree certificate is useless. To earn a 'degree', one has to learn 'things'.. and thats whats important!!

Degrees/Mark sheets are a sort of assurance to the employer that the candidate is competent, he/she is capable of learning new things and hence fit for the job.

I heard many times people ga-ga'ing over the futility of grades/ marks... that grades and marks does NOT necessarily reflect the intellect of an individual !! that precisely is the point... Grades may not ALWAYS reflect the competence of a student (for variety of reasons) BUT more often than not it DOES reflect the brilliance of a student.
Same thing is with the certificates. Someone with the certificates has more (overwhelmingly more) chances of being fit for the job as compared to someone w/o certificate. No employer wants to take such chances.
Hence, certificate/Degrees are important for they reflect that the person has the abilities, potential to be knowledgeable.

Sometimes, to complete the formalities people produce fake certificates n get the job. Do companies really check these cases? Sometimes, even these formalities are not done as some common link is there which helps the employee to get the job.

So, now explain which is important n why. Also tell how transparent is the recruitment system.

Yes, thats true.. Some ppl do that to get third -class jobs. for example, to get a job of Haryana police constable, one can produce fake 10+2 certificate and may get job by Sifaris. BUT no one can get a job like IAS/IPS by producing fake certificates.. competition is too tough and one has to be really hard-working/intelligent to get through the exam, and any one who is that much hard-working can earn genuine degree !!

Regarding private sector, some time back many lost their jobs for producing fake work-experience!! Different issue how relevant is work-experience (especially if someone worked in a different field earlier).

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

What is important Car or fuel ? Process, shape, size everything is different but both are necessary to run a car.
There are certain regualtery formalities that for any post you need a person (may be idiot with perticular educational background) perticular educational background. In an interview you can not check one's abilities only behaviour and degree gives certain level of satisfaction in mind of interviewer that you may be the right candidate for the job. You can make an illitrate P.M. of this nation but not HR Manager of a limited company.
One example you can see in companies indulged in govt. contracts of construction. If you have licence of 50 lac then you need one diploma civil engineer if it is 1 crore you need to hire a graduate engineer. This is rule of govt. they just submit the copies of certificates nobody had ever checked whether the person is alive or dead(this is example of value of degree)

 

[upendersingh]

Certificates are very necessary. If there is no proof of having some knowledge then there are a lot of such rascals that they will have the knowledge of driving a bus and apply for the job of pilot in hope that they will learn to fly the aeroplane during training. Certificate proves that the certificate holder does have some knowledge of the work and after trainig he/she will be fully skilled. Without certificate or degree it will be very tough for the recruiters to recruite. Moreover, certificate or degree also gives a special happiness and satisfaction to the holder as well. They can show it to their children in future to tell them how intelligent or duffer they were.

 

[kapdal]

Certificate is like an entry pass to a place. Knowledge is what ensures your success at that place. Employers need filters to get to their target employees. Certificates provide them with these filters. Interviews/tests subsequently try to test knowledge, fit, etc. etc. If a company invites applications for a 20 lakh p.a. job, imagine how many people would apply, if it doesn't ask for any qualifications. So it asks for qualifications that are necessary (may not be sufficient) for the job. As Sunil said, many a times, the job has nothing to do with the qualification. In those cases, the company would put in requirements that are the best proxies for the job. A software company would ask for engg. background (signalling analytical skills). Then some may further ask for minimum grades (signalling some dedication/commitment of the student).

It is also important to note that companies would be warier of committing Type 1 error rather than Type 2 error. Type 1 error is to select someone who should be rejected. The filter tries to take care of this part. But in the process, the filter may also weed out some people who should have been selected, but get rejected (Type 2 error). For example, a BSc graduate may also have very good analytical skills, but his qualification may automatically reject him for a software engg. job. If you look at this from the company's perspective, they are fine with making type 2 errors as long as they are still getting the required workforce while minimising type 1 errors.

 

[singhabhimanyu]

this is very well explained..

It is true that most of things we learned during a degree course are practically useless. I mean learning partial differential equations or chemical reactions as a major or minor credit during degree course does not help a software engineer!!
During trainig period of job, he/she learns the basic skills/software etc. required for the job at hand and continue to do so in his/her career. i know ppl who did their B Tech in Chemical Engi and working as software engineers and ppl with PhD in Theoretical Physics and working in finance!!

But that does not mean degree certificate is useless. To earn a 'degree', one has to learn 'things'.. and thats whats important!!

Degrees/Mark sheets are a sort of assurance to the employer that the candidate is competent, he/she is capable of learning new things and hence fit for the job.

I heard many times people ga-ga'ing over the futility of grades/ marks... that grades and marks does NOT necessarily reflect the intellect of an individual !! that precisely is the point... Grades may not ALWAYS reflect the competence of a student (for variety of reasons) BUT more often than not it DOES reflect the brilliance of a student.
Same thing is with the certificates. Someone with the certificates has more (overwhelmingly more) chances of being fit for the job as compared to someone w/o certificate. No employer wants to take such chances.
Hence, certificate/Degrees are important for they reflect that the person has the abilities, potential to be knowledgeable.




Yes, thats true.. Some ppl do that to get third -class jobs. for example, to get a job of Haryana police constable, one can produce fake 10+2 certificate and may get job by Sifaris. BUT no one can get a job like IAS/IPS by producing fake certificates.. competition is too tough and one has to be really hard-working/intelligent to get through the exam, and any one who is that much hard-working can earn genuine degree !!

Regarding private sector, some time back many lost their jobs for producing fake work-experience!! Different issue how relevant is work-experience (especially if someone worked in a different field earlier).

 

[choudharyneelam]

When I was trying for C.A. attempt (I cud not make it in one chance as m not so brilliant n also lil sensitive by health,……n second chance was not allowed to me…..doesn’t matter, something else I searched out n now very rigid on that)…….my batch-mate use to give me some tips to live according to the time n situation while we commute towards our coachinig classes (as he had seen how the auditing n all things r done by his uncle C.A.) This is one thing what he said to me, “kisi ke peit par laat mat maarna” (he knew my sincerity level, so he just advised me that was supposed to be done by every learner during auditing like all other CAs). I listened n taken his words politely. So, I agree that there are many things which has to be worked out according to time n situation.

Now coming back to the topic, what Rakesh has said like “You can make an illitrate P.M. of this nation but not HR Manager of a limited company” is acceptable. But a person without degree can be a manager. Right? I know a perfect example of the same which is still surviving in the tough competition with so much comfort n ease. I will not call out the name or identity of the person because I still remember the words of my that batch-mate expressed above. So, I realised that there is some probability that our degree can go waste if people will get the jobs on basis of personal links, or by some other means.

About govt. sector m already aware about it but the case that m talking is one from the private sector.

Rest, all the replies are good. Simply explained

If something more u've to enlighten my lil brain/ perception then its always welcome.

Thanks n Regards
Neelam Choudhary

 

[rajkphogat]

When I was trying for C.A. attempt (I cud not make it in one chance as m not so brilliant n also lil sensitive by health,……n second chance was not allowed to me…..doesn’t matter, something else I searched out n now very rigid on that)…….my batch-mate use to give me some tips to live according to the time n situation while we commute towards our coachinig classes (as he had seen how the auditing n all things r done by his uncle C.A.) This is one thing what he said to me, “kisi ke peit par laat mat maarna” (he knew my sincerity level, so he just advised me that was supposed to be done by every learner during auditing like all other CAs). I listened n taken his words politely. So, I agree that there are many things which has to be worked out according to time n situation.

Now coming back to the topic, what Rakesh has said like “You can make an illitrate P.M. of this nation but not HR Manager of a limited company” is acceptable. But a person without degree can be a manager. Right? I know a perfect example of the same which is still surviving in the tough competition with so much comfort n ease. I will not call out the name or identity of the person because I still remember the words of my that batch-mate expressed above. So, I realised that there is some probability that our degree can go waste if people will get the jobs on basis of personal links, or by some other means.

About govt. sector m already aware about it but the case that m talking is one from the private sector.

Rest, all the replies are good. Simply explained

If something more u've to enlighten my lil brain/ perception then its always welcome.

Thanks n Regards
Neelam Choudhary

Neelam Chaudhary you r very confusing girl now here u give ur example:

Now tell me If i hav attempted CA 4 times but fail & didn't tried 5 th time Though I am very knowledgable but can anyone believe on my intelegince??

Above u said some thing (bold letetrs) Are u thinking if you divulge that person's name aur uskey pet par laat lag jayegi......- Ye baat yahan par kuch samaj me nahi aayi

Arey bhai certificates are the proof of ur knowledge. here i m nnot saying non qualified persons cant be on top but they hav to work hard thrice then a qualified person to be at same level.( I hav seen a Mcom handling a team of 15 qualified CA/ICWA's, Same way I also saw an CA working on a salary of 7000 & an ICWA for 5000 ek CS ko to job hi nahi mili1.5 saal tak fir usney ICWA kiya then he got a job) Ye jyada purani baat nahi hai only 3-4 yrs old. Yahan par sarey example pvt cos. k hain

In my point of view Degree is more imp. knowledge to aadmi sari jindagi gain karta rehta hi hai.

 

[ojus]

When I was trying for C.A. attempt (I cud not make it in one chance as m not so brilliant n also lil sensitive by health,……n second chance was not allowed to me…..doesn’t matter, something else I searched out n now very rigid on that)…….my batch-mate use to give me some tips to live according to the time n situation while we commute towards our coachinig classes (as he had seen how the auditing n all things r done by his uncle C.A.) This is one thing what he said to me, “kisi ke peit par laat mat maarna” (he knew my sincerity level, so he just advised me that was supposed to be done by every learner during auditing like all other CAs). I listened n taken his words politely. So, I agree that there are many things which has to be worked out according to time n situation.

Now coming back to the topic, what Rakesh has said like “You can make an illitrate P.M. of this nation but not HR Manager of a limited company” is acceptable. But a person without degree can be a manager. Right? I know a perfect example of the same which is still surviving in the tough competition with so much comfort n ease. I will not call out the name or identity of the person because I still remember the words of my that batch-mate expressed above. So, I realised that there is some probability that our degree can go waste if people will get the jobs on basis of personal links, or by some other means.

About govt. sector m already aware about it but the case that m talking is one from the private sector.

Rest, all the replies are good. Simply explained

If something more u've to enlighten my lil brain/ perception then its always welcome.

Thanks n Regards
Neelam Choudhary

Human interference in job allocations must be removed thoroughly!
Job==Money

 

[rajkphogat]

Human interference in job allocations must be removed thoroughly!
Job==Money

hahahah......................

fer te bhagwan mathey pe stamp mar-2 bhejega CA, Engr. IAS, jamadar ,chokidaar etc. etc.

 

[ojus]

hahahah......................

fer te bhagwan mathey pe stamp mar-2 bhejega CA, Engr. IAS, jamadar ,chokidaar etc. etc.

KumHar bhi!

 

[anilsinghd]

Thought i was the mathematician!

Not sure why neelam always comes out with stuff that never has a n-ary solution but that lies well within the grey area and can be discussed with no end.
There is theory and then there is practical , not sure what's important but the solution will also solve Neelam's this query and others as well.

I distinctly remember that when I started on the job , in the first couple of weeks itself I happen to ask a very brilliant senior colleague on whether I should substantiate by Masters in Maths/Comp Sc. with a CFA certification? I was very sure that he would answer in the negative as he himself was more of a self-made guy having confidence in his abilities and judgement that fundamental equations and books etc.
But actually he told me to go ahead with the CFA. The reason he gave was an interesting one , he said that degrees and certifications are like libraries in a computer software program. They are not the best of smarrtest piece of code one can write or are not the most efficient systems , but when you get old and your brain slows down , they can be very useful to complete the program.

I did not do CFA is a different story but probably you all got the message!

Regards, Anil

It is also important to note that companies would be warier of committing Type 1 error rather than Type 2 error. .

 

[choudharyneelam]

Neelam Chaudhary you r very confusing girl

that's why I asked u people to enlighten my lil brain.....I think u didn't read it above in my post.

Now tell me If i hav attempted CA 4 times but fail & didn't tried 5 th time Though I am very knowledgable but can anyone believe on my intelegince??

I agree. I will never consider u as capable one but just wondering how that person is being considered like that.

Above u said some thing (bold letetrs) Are u thinking if you divulge that person's name aur uskey pet par laat lag jayegi......

Yes! This happens only when we raise questions on such known cases in the organisation.

 

[choudharyneelam]

degrees and certifications are like libraries in a computer software program. They are not the best of smarrtest piece of code one can write or are not the most efficient systems , but when you get old and your brain slows down , they can be very useful to complete the program.

Regards, Anil

Nice message..........Thanks for the reply

 

[rajkphogat]

that's why I asked u people to enlighten my lil brain.....I think u didn't read it above in my post.

Dont take my comment serious.every one is equal. Belive in one thing no one is more intelligent then you, you will get the sucess, degrees are only tiny things in fron t of sucess.

You can say dergee is just a key to open of sucess path, if someone dont hav then he has to jump wall to get on that path.


I agree. I will never consider u as capable one but just wondering how that person is being considered like that.
didnt get u what u want to say

Yes! This happens only when we raise questions on such known cases in the organisation.

I dont agree wid you as this is not a thing of shame, if a person is on top he must hav shown some thnig to his comp. & no company or person pay heed to such things.

 

[choudharyneelam]

I dont agree wid you as this is not a thing of shame, if a person is on top he must hav shown some thnig to his comp. & no company or person pay heed to such things.

I agree, there is nothing like to feel ashamed. I'm talking abt a person who does not possess any basic degree but is at managerial level. As u said, the person must have shown something to his company.....it again makes me curious to know what other than degree a person can show to the organisation which proves him to be worthy enough as m telling u the person does not possess any degree. How can it be possible that such case has been neglected.

Few years back a same case I heard abt but when company came to know abt it that person without degree was fired out. Again I dont know how that person was earlier able to make the entry into the organisation.

I tell u one thing that how these things work. My grandpa was a retired British Army Captain with education upto 8th std......not even a matriculate but Pt. Nehru wanted him to appoint him at a position which required a marticulate. So he tried to get my grandpa's permission to produce a required original certificate for him so that he can bring him at the desired place where he wanted to. But this disloyalty was denied by my grandpa and he walked back to his native place n rendered his services there. Now I want to ask you people, if Pt. Nehruji can think of this thinig for a candidate then the organisation can also think the same for some benefit. They themselves are appointing such people. Person so appointed cannot be blamed. But the recruitment system is not good. Isn't it?.......This says knowledge is more important but not the degrees. What you say now?

I've gud command on my subjects which I can teach upto graduation level (syllabus of M.D.U. n even D.U.). So approached one of the school's principal that I can teach accountancy n commerce. Asked them to take my written test, n even demo but after having a discussion with that principal I got to know it can't be possible to appoint me for sr. sec. level without M.Com. n sec. level without B.Ed. as they have to show it in records whenever the invigilators come to check the system........If it is so then how that other person got the gud position without any degree.

Even if one wants to get the job in govt. sector one has to show the degree certificate, atleast. And, forget abt the position. Engg. with approaches are working in NTPC/NHPC at gud positions. I know them personally.

 

[sanjaymalik]

degree vs knowledge

Without degree it is difficult to enter in any organisation, one should have at least the certificate/degree to show that yes i have some basic knowledge,understading of things and skills to understand orgainisation, job discription of the related field. And to develop individuals skills depends on training provided by the employer from time to time.After getting in the job will be able to learn techquenicalities and required skills. First one should have degree ,relevant knowledge of the concerned subject can be acquired subsquently.
But degrees given perferene only at the time of the entry ,down the 2/3/5 years of expirence what matter is the work you have done the knowledge of the relevant work done. and most important how to play with the facts, to manage the things. so degree and knowledge both are equally important. Exceptions are always there.

 

[rajkphogat]

I dont know how that person was earlier able to make the entry into the organisation.--------- you want to say that person got job without edu. qual. being checked by his epmloyer Oh God Muje aisi comp kyoo nhi milti.

I tell u one thing that how . is not good. Isn't it?.......This says knowledge is more important but not the degrees. What you say now?--------- Us jamaney me 8v aaj ki BA se jayada thi, only this i will say

I've gud command on my subjects which I can teach upto graduation level (syllabus of M.D.U. n even D.U.). So approached one of the school's principal that to check the system........If it is so then how that other person got the gud position without any degree. ------------Madam galti te thari se school me kyoo gayi College me jao e sidha Lecturer khatar.

Even if one wants to get the job in govt. sector one has to show the degree certificate, atleast. And, forget abt the position. Engg. with approaches are working in NTPC/NHPC at gud positions. I know them personally---------------- hahahahhahaha,.......... yahan me hasney ki siva kuch nahi keh sakta. Neelam pls check the recruitment procedure followed by these PSU's, ye vaham door hojayega

 

[choudharyneelam]

I dont know how that person was earlier able to make the entry into the organisation.--------- you want to say that person got job without edu. qual. being checked by his epmloyer Oh God Muje aisi comp kyoo nhi milti.

Aisa hua hai.......believe it or not......but i've seen it.

I tell u one thing that how . is not good. Isn't it?.......This says knowledge is more important but not the degrees. What you say now?--------- Us jamaney me 8v aaj ki BA se jayada thi, only this i will say

Kal ki aur aaj ki degree value mein kitna difference hai mujhe jyada nahin to thoda to pata hai......I was talking abt disloyalty in demand.

I've gud command on my subjects which I can teach upto graduation level (syllabus of M.D.U. n even D.U.). So approached one of the school's principal that to check the system........If it is so then how that other person got the gud position without any degree. ------------Madam galti te thari se school me kyoo gayi College me jao e sidha Lecturer khatar.

Mazaak soch samajh ke kiya karo.....agar mujhe in sab baaton ka pata hota to main innocently apna khud ka interview karwane nahin jaati. Pata chala to maine B.Ed. kar li aur ab jaldi meri MBA complete hote hi M.Com. bhi kar lungi.....or something else if find better than that......got it!!

Even if one wants to get the job in govt. sector one has to show the degree certificate, atleast. And, forget abt the position. Engg. with approaches are working in NTPC/NHPC at gud positions. I know them personally----------------

hahahahhahaha,.......... yahan me hasney ki siva kuch nahi keh sakta. Neelam pls check the recruitment procedure followed by these PSU's, ye vaham door hojayega

Vaham to aap apna door kijiye, Sir. Kaash ye possible hota ki aapko uss candidate ke recruitment ka tareeka bata paati. Actually galti se unke khud ke parents ke munh se baat nikal gayi......unke khud ke bacche ke different tarike ke selection ki......baat fir koi kitni bhi ghuma le lekin ek baar jo nikal gayi so sab clear ho jata hai. That much only I can say. Ab main unke parents ko jhootha maanun ya PSU's ka selection procedure accha bataun. Sorry.....I end this topic here only.

 

[choudharyneelam]

I dont know how that person was earlier able to make the entry into the organisation.--------- you want to say that person got job without edu. qual. being checked by his epmloyer Oh God Muje aisi comp kyoo nhi milti.

Aisa hua hai.......believe it or not......but i've seen it.

I tell u one thing that how . is not good. Isn't it?.......This says knowledge is more important but not the degrees. What you say now?--------- Us jamaney me 8v aaj ki BA se jayada thi, only this i will say

Kal ki aur ki degree value mein kitna difference hai mujhe jyada nahin to thoda to pata hai......I was talking abt disloyalty in demand.

I've gud command on my subjects which I can teach upto graduation level (syllabus of M.D.U. n even D.U.). So approached one of the school's principal that to check the system........If it is so then how that other person got the gud position without any degree. ------------Madam galti te thari se school me kyoo gayi College me jao e sidha Lecturer khatar.

Mazaak soch samajh ke kiya karo.....agar mujhe in sab baaton ka pata hota to main innocently apna khud ka interview karwane nahin jaati. Pata chala to maine B.Ed. kar li aur ab jaldi meri MBA complete hote hi M.Com. bhi kar lungi.....or something else if find better than that......got it!!

Even if one wants to get the job in govt. sector one has to show the degree certificate, atleast. And, forget abt the position. Engg. with approaches are working in NTPC/NHPC at gud positions. I know them personally----------------

hahahahhahaha,.......... yahan me hasney ki siva kuch nahi keh sakta. Neelam pls check the recruitment procedure followed by these PSU's, ye vaham door hojayega

Vaham to aap apna door kijiye, Sir. Kaash ye possible hota ki aapko uss candidate ke recruitment ka tareeka bata paati. Actually galti se unke khud ke parents ke munh se baat nikal gayi......unke khud ke bacche ke different tarike ke selection ki......baat fir koi kitni bhi ghuma le lekin ek baar jo nikal gayi so sab clear ho jata hai. That much only I can say. Ab main unke parents ko jhootha maanun ya PSU's ka selection procedure accha bataun. Sorry.....I end this topic here only.