पी एम हो तो मोदी जैसा...........

[sumitjattan]

I wrote this :-


Bilkul sahi baat kahi aap nein aaj tak kissi bhi musalmaan nein ye nahi kaha hai ki jo Aurangzeb nein kiya vo galat tha to hum modi ko kyon galat kahe aur sahi baat boori baaton ko bhoolna nahi chahiye ........ to Aurangzeb ko bhi yaad rakho .... Muslims ko hissa mil chuka hai jo yahan hai vo unka faisla tha humara nahi ..... kam se kam unki halat Pakistan mein rah rahe hindon se to behtar hai ..... Modi nein Gujrat mein kaam kiya aur kar raha hai agar uska 50% bhi desh mein kar diya to mere vote ki kimat poori ho jaaye gi ...... i dont have any sympathy with muslims ... jab unka raaj tha unhone humara khoob khoon piya hai ..... agar proper history ki baat karni hai to Rajpal sir se pooch lo vo History ke scholar hai




Your reply :-




Bhai..tum aise baat kar rahe ho jaise Muslims yahan ke citizens hi nahin hai...aur agar woh yahan reh rahe hain to hamara unke upar bahut bada ehsaan hai..!


Aur bhai kya India ke Musalman Mughal hain? Aurangzeb ke vashanj hai? Jo Aurangzeb ne kiya unme kya inka haath tha? Yeh bhi to convert hi huye hain par fir bhi Indians hai..!


Modi ki baat is liye kar sakte hain kyunki woh abhi hamare saamne hain aur shayad PM ban jaye..Musalmano se Aurangzeb ke baare mein maafi dilwa ke kya confirm karwa doge? Unka to usse koi lena dena hi nahin hai.




How you interpert that i don't consider them as citizen of India ….. i wrote the above line just to high light the fact that they have already divided a country on the name of minority and insecurity ….. If Aurangzeb is the only mughal and as you said a blue blood then why people blame Nazis for the orders of hitler as hitler was the Chancellor and they have just followed his orders … but in India also what you think who were on the lowest level in Aurangzeb's era to execute his orders …those all were converted people … and as per your logic why Rajiv Gandi became prime minister of India after Sikh Riots …… and using the same logic why Modi cant become the prime minister ….. moral grounds is a very broad and subjective term …. and in last 10 years . Gujratis are living with peace … and if he is guilty then let Law takes its way ….


Please answer my question what matters to you corruption free head with a vision and proven administrative skills ruling this country or incompetent people with very very high pseudo secular values ……


What you want to prove here sir ???????????????

 

[tarzon]

Ok till now you were saying this video that video this statement that statement of Modi...now you are suggesting me to think deeply...cool :tongue:

Next time when you claim something substantiate your claim with proper reference otherwise there is no use of such discussion.

Ok. Think deeply. Do you think there would be visible links leading upto Modi and if there were Modi will allow them to remain? Take the example of 84 riots. You too would agree that something like that cannot happen without Rajiv's approval. Same is here with Modi. His actions, like not apologizing, and not reigning in his own party from using Godhra in the ensuing election alongwith his attempts to deny any mass scale riots and state role points to his guilt.

I was not teaching the English to you. Where to use "is" or "was" where to use helping verb or where to not. I was just showing you how to comprehend a sentence and you've habit of partial reading which I'll show you below in your statement.

I think I showed you what is your level of English, so you can hardly teach me.

OK Lets even take this definition as well. The base definition of genocide will remain same, that is "systematically

extermination of only one community". It won't be called as genocide if the affected side shows the ​

repercussion and will react in equal intensity. This is the base difference of riot and genocide. You may overlook it, but it won't change the fact. My English is very poor, so please confirm with any English expert in this forum if I'm right or wrong.

The bold were included as I wanted to show you the relevant words applicable here. But again, here's what Wiki says on its first sentence on the Genocide page:
Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[SUP][1][/SUP] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.
See the underlined? In part?

From the same wiki source and from the same part...

151 towns and 993 villages[27] in fifteen to sixteen of the state's 25 districts were affected by the post-Godhra violence, which was particularly severe in about five or six districts.

Why only five or six district affected when it was a planned genocide? Was the the Muslim of Western Gujrat or Southern Gujrat not the real Muslim? Why they left if it was planned Genocide. These areas were far away from the state capital. If it was a planned genocide it was easier for them to finish out the Muslim in those far areas. The VHP, BJP, BD, RSS cadre exist in every district of Gujrat. Isnt'it? Then why it doesn't happen? Write a new propaganda story for that​

:tongue:

​

3-4 districts. Curfew was imposed in 34 towns. Here's from WIki. Read carefully.

The Army began flag marches in the worst-affected areas and shoot-at-sight orders were issued in 34curfew-bound cities and towns in Gujarat.[SUP][26][/SUP]​

151 towns and 993 villages[SUP][27][/SUP] in fifteen to sixteen of the state's 25 districts were affected by the post-Godhra violence, which was particularly severe in about five or six districts. The violence raged largely between 28 February and 3 March, and after a drop, restarted on 15 March, continuing till mid June.[SUP][28][/SUP] Northern and central Gujarat, as well as the north-eastern tribal belt which are closer to Godhra City, were the worst affected while Saurashtra and Kutch remained largely peaceful.[SUP][27][/SUP]​

 

[tarzon]

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just putting the fact. But Indeed you are ignoring the other side of the coin. Who is denying those attack was not happened? But in some part of state certain number of people start vandalizing and start doing riots, it doesn't mean that CM of state was patronizing it.

There is ample evidence of that, but perhapos you choose to ignore it. Again, almost all attacks on 28th feb began at 9 30 or 10 am. When extremist groups like VHP, Bajrang Dal are already present with their cadres and with mobiles it isnt hard to communicate plans and organize.

Yes, You can also scroll above and see the response.:stupid:

Scroll above to see the response.

When Hindus got killed then it won't be called as genocide. This is the base difference between a genocide and a riots.
You can see a sustained attack on Muslim by Hindu Mobs but you are not ready to see the Sabarmati Express train was attacked at Godhra by a "Muslim mob"[SUP]][/SUP] as per a preplanned conspiracy. 58 Hindu pilgrims, including 25 women and 15 children, returning from Ayodhya, were killed in the attack. These Hindus were animal...right???

Agree Hindus got killed too, but it was after sustained attacks aided by the administration and govt that Muslims retaliated. Only then were Hindu lives lost. But the overwhelming deaths of Muslims along with the hate campaign and coordination points to genocide.

First your source is not from any National Media. 2nd Even If I believe this source, You really have comprehension problem and selective reading problem. You termed the 2.24 Lakh Muslim voter missing from the electoral role due to Gujrat riots. Now just read the red part what actually Lingdoh has concluded. So please improve your comprehension skills.

Here's the CEC Lyngdoh's statement: "BOOTHS IN OTHER STATES: The Election Commission has asked the the Chief Electoral Officers of Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh to locate Gujarat's Muslim voters who might have shifted to their states after the riots so as to give them also an opportunity to participate in the elections. These efforts to locate the displaced electors will continue even after the announcement of elections, the EC Press note said.

He, however, made it clear that all 2.24 lakh missing voters may not be on account of the communal riots as it appears they had left Gujarat "mostly for economic reasons" as the September 11 terror attack in America had affected economy of the state. He cited instance of Surat where no riots took place and yet a large number of voters have shifted."
I didnt have time to find more sources for you, so just one for now, though you can find more with the same statement.: http://www.angelfire.com/in/jalnews/2002/28101.htm

I've already answered many thing, but let me try to put some fact again.

Myth 1: 2,000 Muslims were killed in the Gujarat riots

Fact: As per figures given by the Union Minister of State for Home Shriprakash Jaiswal, who belongs to the Congress Party, in Parliament on 11 May 2005, 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed in the riots, 2548 people were injured and 223 people were missing. The report placed the number of riot-affected widows at 919 and the number of children orphaned at 606. The UPA government gives these figures, and hence they themselves may be inflated.


Source:http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=46538

Myth 2: The Gujarat police turned a blind eye to the rioting


Fact:
Even though the situation was terrible, the police performed its work extremely efficiently. The police force was woefully insufficient. Uday Mahurkar reports for India Today (18 March 2002):


“Ahmedabad has a police force of 6,000, including 1,500 armed personnel. In addition, the entire state has just four companies (530 jawans) of the Rapid Action Force (RAF) of which only one company could be spared for Ahmedabad. Considering that the mobs that simultaneously surfaced at nearly half a dozen places numbered from 2,000 to 10,000, the forces proved woefully inadequate. At one point on February 28 there were at least 25,000 people targeting the Muslim localities in Ahmedabad alone.”


Source18 March 2002):
http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/20020318/cover.shtml

Police Action continued to Save innocent Muslims as well as Hindus with best of their capacity..


Out of the 25,486 accused, the Gujarat police arrested as many as 25,204 people. This clearly shows the efficiency of the Gujarat police. On March 1st and 2nd and afterwards, Muslims too rioted and they too were killed in police firing.


The Gujarat police saved as many as 2,500 Muslims in Sanjeli, a town in North Gujarat, 5,000 Muslims in Bodeli, in Vadodara and about 10,000 Muslims in Viramgam. A total of about 24,000 Muslims were saved in the first three days alone. Police officials themselves suffered injuries in trying to save the Muslims, as reported by the weekly India Today.


Source:
http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20020422/states.shtm



Lastly, The Muslim of Gujrat most educated, Most well placed in comparison to other state of India as per the Sacchar committee report setup by the UPA govt report.

Source:
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/muslims-well-off-in-state-modi

That's all from my side! I've said more than enough!~



[/QUOTE]I think you are closing your eyes to a large scale carnage carried out in the name of religion by playing a politics of hate. I understand if it was a riot only but the state support, police apathy and govt's cover up and denial is shameful. It has happened in 84 and probably in other places and will happen again going by the way our country functions.

But this isnt the worst of it. The worse is that such cases will always be highlighted and used by anti-national forces to incite terror. Why? Because there has been no redressal. No justice. The govt in such cases should move swiftly instead of dilly dallying. And while prosecuting should make an example out of people who incite in the name of religion. Praveen Togadia is openly seen giving hateful speeches equating riots with Hanuman ji's burning tail and justifying the revenge.

And why didnt BJP which was also at the centre at that time move swiftly to curb the carnage or prosecute people with a vengeance? Because it had a votebank to protect. And Modi's supporters love him for that.[/QUOTE]

 

[vvk1987]

sometimes i miss dislike option for the posts...

प्यारे भाई, तन्ने किम्मे घणी ऐ थनथनी आ रही सै तो इब पाछे ना पढ़िए, dislike के बट्टन की जरूरत ऐ ना पडै I
मैंने तो इस टोपिक पै तेरी बस एक पोस्ट पढी थी, उसी में बेरा लाग गया था अक भाई तूं तै जरूरत तैं घणा बड्डा विद्वान् सै I कम पढ़े लिखे माणस कै तेरी फिलोसफी समझ मै कोन्या आवै I

 

[sanjeev1984]

cheating... ye to meri line copy kar li aapne... which is more applicable on you buddy...

Bhai..thoda parh le..time laga aur fir bol...

I understand the state of the country makes us look for saviours in whatever form they might exist. But going for Modi will divide this country like never before.

 

[sanjeev1984]

maine to pehle hi samjhaya tha bhai... eeb bhi to maane...

If you can't differentiate between riot and genocide then I rest my case there is no use of such discussion.

Quote his statement...don't shoot the gun in air....while referring he said this and that....

In Asaam in just 1 week more than 2 Lakh people has been displaced, one of the biggest displacement in Independent India. use the same logic of planning and coordination in Assam as well by CM and his party worker...can you???

 

[sanjeev1984]

iske viprit... mai aapse ye request karounga ki aap kuch aise post daalne ki kosish karo ki, jisko padhne ke baad sirf like karne ka hi man kare...

mugjhe isi liye Jatland pasand hai... kyon ki yahi vo jagah hai, jahan mugjhe aise bhai mil jate hain jo meri ek post padhne pe hi meri education ka andaja laga lete hain... or ek-do to aise hain ki mere uniform civil code ki baat karte hi mugjhe communal bol dete hain... and i like both kind of brothers... keep it up guys...

प्यारे भाई, तन्ने किम्मे घणी ऐ थनथनी आ रही सै तो इब पाछे ना पढ़िए, dislike के बट्टन की जरूरत ऐ ना पडै I
मैंने तो इस टोपिक पै तेरी बस एक पोस्ट पढी थी, उसी में बेरा लाग गया था अक भाई तूं तै जरूरत तैं घणा बड्डा विद्वान् सै I कम पढ़े लिखे माणस कै तेरी फिलोसफी समझ मै कोन्या आवै I

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rehne do sir..aap moderation karte hi acche lagte ho..kyun beech mein parh rahe ho?

Thanks, keep it up and enjoy!

 

[vvk1987]

एक दूसरे टोपिक मै कुछ भाण-भाईयाँ नै चौधरी बंसी लाल की बुराई इसलिए कर राखी थी अक उसके राज मै रिवासा कांड होया था, जो कि वास्तव मै भोत बुरा काम था i i वो कांड बंसीलाल नै खुद अपने हाथ तैं नहीं करया था, लेकिन उसने उसको होणे से रोक्क्या भी नहीं i इसलिए वो उस दाग को अपने कुड़ते पर तैं जीया इतनै धो नहीं पाया i इसी प्रकार, गुजरात दंगों से वहां की सरकार का मुखिया, चाहे वो कोए भी था, अपनी धोती को बचा नहीं पाया, आर यो इसा दाग सै जो धोती पाटे बिना उतरैगा नहीं i कचेड़ी मै चाहे बेशक केश साबित ना हो i न्यू तै सबने बेरा सै एक हाथ तैं ताली ना बाजती, आर साम्परदायक हिंसा को भड़काने कि लिए छेड़खानी दोनों तरफ तैं चलती रहवे सै,लेकिन हालात को काबू मै राखणा तो सरकार की ऐ जिम्मेदारी बनै सै i फेर वोट का गणित भी तो कोए चीज़ होवै सै i ऐकले गुजरात के वोटां तैं pm बणऩा शायद मुश्किल ही नहीं नामुमकिन भी है i इसलिए मेरा कहणा तो भाई यो हे सै के म्हारे आपणे छोरयाँ मै तै कोए टालमा सा पढ्या लिख्या, सूहर आला आर सुथरा सा छोरा ढूंढो जो प्रधानमंत्री की पोस्ट पै सुथरा भी लागै आर किते बाहर दौरे पै जावै तो न्यू थुत्कारे से पड़ें आर लोग लुगाई न्यू कहवैं "वाह प्रधानमंत्री हो तो इसा, डठोरे आला गाभरू जाट" i देश की शान बढेगी, आपना नाम रोशन होगा i भाई म्हारा भी लम्बर पड़ना चाहिए चौधर में, बड़ी तमन्ना सै वो दिन देखण की i

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Sir,

Some propaganda must have to busted!

Friend,

One fails to make out if propaganda is being busted or boosted !!!

Thanks

 

[swaich]

Ok till now you were saying this video that video this statement that statement of Modi...now you are suggesting me to think deeply...cool :tongue:

Next time when you claim something substantiate your claim with proper reference otherwise there is no use of such discussion.

When we started off this discussion you mentioned you had seen those videos and the documentary Final Solution which is banned in many states. But then you ask me for proofs of Modi's statements. Either you just plainly lied to see that documentary just to show how well aware you are on the matter or you want to conveniently forget it and still debate on mindlessly.

OK Lets even take this definition as well. The base definition of genocide will remain same, that is "systematically

extermination of only one community". It won't be called as genocide if the affected side shows the ​

repercussion and will react in equal intensity. This is the base difference of riot and genocide. You may overlook it, but it won't change the fact. My English is very poor, so please confirm with any English expert in this forum if I'm right or wrong.

Compare the numbers. The Muslims displaced and Hindus displaced. It is massively imbalanced. And can be all attributed to a systematic campaign planned out in advanced. That is similar to a genocide.

From the same wiki source and from the same part...

151 towns and 993 villages[27] in fifteen to sixteen of the state's 25 districts were affected by the post-Godhra violence, which was particularly severe in about five or six districts.

Why only five or six district affected when it was a planned genocide? Was the the Muslim of Western Gujrat or Southern Gujrat not the real Muslim? Why they left if it was planned Genocide. These areas were far away from the state capital. If it was a planned genocide it was easier for them to finish out the Muslim in those far areas. The VHP, BJP, BD, RSS cadre exist in every district of Gujrat. Isnt'it? Then why it doesn't happen? Write a new propaganda story for that​

:tongue:

​

You are choosing what suits you. It says 5 or 6 worst affected. While 15/16 were affected. That is surely more than the figure of 3 -4 that you quoted? Is it not?

 

[swaich]

When Hindus got killed then it won't be called as genocide. This is the base difference between a genocide and a riots.

It will be. I already mentioned the forced migration of Pandits from Kashmir valley is a genocide. But perhaps you found it suiting your argument to neglect that statement of mine.

You can see a sustained attack on Muslim by Hindu Mobs but you are not ready to see the Sabarmati Express train was attacked at Godhra by a "Muslim mob"[SUP]][/SUP] as per a preplanned conspiracy. 58 Hindu pilgrims, including 25 women and 15 children, returning from Ayodhya, were killed in the attack. These Hindus were animal...right???

Lets assume it was a pre-planned conspiracy although the team's findings are highly disputed. Even then killing people all over the state to avenge those 58 is justified? Is that what you are trying to say? An adequate response to Sabarmati burning would have been to arrest the culprits. But the govt. actually allowed mobs to take revenge.

First your source is not from any National Media. 2nd Even If I believe this source, You really have comprehension problem and selective reading problem. You termed the 2.24 Lakh Muslim voter missing from the electoral role due to Gujrat riots. Now just read the red part what actually Lingdoh has concluded. So please improve your comprehension skills.

Can you please give me a list of media sources you do not consider national or biased? You earlier refused to accept Tehelka as a valid source. Another brother here refused to accept reports from any national media as claiming them to be paid.

Myth 1: 2,000 Muslims were killed in the Gujarat riots

Fact: As per figures given by the Union Minister of State for Home Shriprakash Jaiswal, who belongs to the Congress Party, in Parliament on 11 May 2005, 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed in the riots, 2548 people were injured and 223 people were missing. The report placed the number of riot-affected widows at 919 and the number of children orphaned at 606. The UPA government gives these figures, and hence they themselves may be inflated.


Source:http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=46538

Official sources, even central ones are always less than the actual figures? As the documentary says and eye witnesses confirm. Many bodies were simply piled up in trucks by teh attackers and taken away. The real figure of death is more than 2000 and over whelmingly one sided.

Source: Human Rights watch: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402.htm#P106_4953

Myth 2: The Gujarat police turned a blind eye to the rioting

Fact:
Even though the situation was terrible, the police performed its work extremely efficiently. The police force was woefully insufficient. Uday Mahurkar reports for India Today (18 March 2002):


“Ahmedabad has a police force of 6,000, including 1,500 armed personnel. In addition, the entire state has just four companies (530 jawans) of the Rapid Action Force (RAF) of which only one company could be spared for Ahmedabad. Considering that the mobs that simultaneously surfaced at nearly half a dozen places numbered from 2,000 to 10,000, the forces proved woefully inadequate. At one point on February 28 there were at least 25,000 people targeting the Muslim localities in Ahmedabad alone.”


Source18 March 2002):
http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/20020318/cover.shtml

Police Action continued to Save innocent Muslims as well as Hindus with best of their capacity..


Out of the 25,486 accused, the Gujarat police arrested as many as 25,204 people. This clearly shows the efficiency of the Gujarat police. On March 1st and 2nd and afterwards, Muslims too rioted and they too were killed in police firing.


The Gujarat police saved as many as 2,500 Muslims in Sanjeli, a town in North Gujarat, 5,000 Muslims in Bodeli, in Vadodara and about 10,000 Muslims in Viramgam. A total of about 24,000 Muslims were saved in the first three days alone. Police officials themselves suffered injuries in trying to save the Muslims, as reported by the weekly India Today.


Source:
http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20020422/states.shtm

Here's what NHRC had to say:

"India's National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), an official body, found evidence in the killings of premeditation by members of Hindu extremist groups; complicity by Gujarat state government officials; and police inaction in the midst of attacks on Muslims. The NHRC also noted "widespread reports and allegations of well-organized persons, armed with mobile telephones and addresses, singling out certain homes and properties for death and destruction in certain districts-sometimes within view of police stations and personnel," suggesting the attacks may have been planned in advance. Christians were also victims in Gujarat, and many churches were destroyed."[SUP][57][/SUP]

Lastly, The Muslim of Gujrat most educated, Most well placed in comparison to other state of India as per the Sacchar committee report setup by the UPA govt report.

Source:
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/muslims-well-off-in-state-modi

So? What does that prove? A dalit in Punjab would be better off than other dalits. Even a beginner in Indian economy would tell you that Gujarat has always been a relatively economically prosperous state by the country's standards. So it is expected that Muslims in this state would outperform other Muslims in the country. Pretty lame argument.

 

[swaich]

Summary of the Human Rights Watch report

• [SIZE=+0]I. SUMMARY[/SIZE]
  
  
  
  Indian government officials have acknowledged that since February 27, 2002, more than 850 people have been killed in communal violence in the state of Gujarat, most of them Muslims. Unofficial estimates put the death toll as high as 2,000. At this writing, murders are continuing, with violence spreading to rural areas fanned by ongoing hate campaigns and economic boycotts against Muslims. The attacks against Muslims in Gujarat have been actively supported by state government officials and by the police.
• 
  "Read govt's denial mode and methods to cover up:"
  The Gujarat government chose to characterize the violence as a "spontaneous reaction" to the incidents in Godhra. Human Rights Watch's findings, and those of numerous Indian human rights and civil liberties organizations, and most of the Indian press indicate that the attacks on Muslims throughout the state were planned, well in advance of the Godhra incident, and organized with extensive police participation and in close cooperation with officials of the Bharatiya Janata Party (Indian People's Party, BJP) state government.
  
  "VHP, Bajrang Dal, RSS and BJP activists responsible:"
  The attacks on Muslims are part of a concerted campaign of Hindu nationalist organizations to promote and exploit communal tensions to further the BJP's political rule-a movement that is supported at the local level by militant groups that operate with impunity and under the patronage of the state. The groups most directly responsible for violence against Muslims in Gujarat include the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, the ruling BJP, and the umbrella organization Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS), all of whom collectively form the sangh parivar (or "family" of Hindu nationalist groups). These organizations, although different in many respects, have all promoted the argument that because Hindus constitute the majority of Indians, India should be a Hindu state.
  
  "Local media incited people:"
  On February 28, one local language paper headline read: "Avenge blood for blood." Muslim survivors of the attacks repeatedly told Human Rights Watch that they were told to "go back to Pakistan."
  
  "Govt. bias even in prosecution:"
  The state government initially charged those arrested in relation to the attack on the Godhra train under the controversial and draconian Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance (POTO, now the Prevention of Terrorism Act), but filed ordinary criminal charges against those accused of attacks on Muslims. Bowing to criticism from political leaders and civil society across the country, the chief minister dropped the POTO charges but stated that the terms of POTO may be applied at a later date.
  
  Between February 28 and March 2 the attackers descended with militia-like precision on Ahmedabad by the thousands, arriving in trucks and clad in saffron scarves and khaki shorts, the signature uniform of Hindu nationalist-Hindutva-groups.[SUP]3[/SUP] Chanting slogans of incitement to kill, they came armed with swords, trishuls (three-pronged spears associated with Hindu mythology), sophisticated explosives, and gas cylinders. They were guided by computer printouts listing the addresses of Muslim families and their properties, information obtained from the Ahmedabad municipal corporation among other sources, and embarked on a murderous rampage confident that the police was with them. In many cases, the police led the charge, using gunfire to kill Muslims who got in the mobs' way. A key BJP state minister is reported to have taken over police control rooms in Ahmedabad on the first day of the carnage, issuing orders to disregard pleas for assistance from Muslims. Portions of the Gujarati language press meanwhile printed fabricated stories and statements openly calling on Hindus to avenge the Godhra attacks.
  
  "Police role:"
  In almost all of the incidents documented by Human Rights Watch the police were directly implicated in the attacks. At best they were passive observers, and at worse they acted in concert with murderous mobs and participated directly in the burning and looting of Muslim shops and homes and the killing and mutilation of Muslims. In many cases, under the guise of offering assistance, the police led the victims directly into the hands of their killers. Many of the attacks on Muslim homes and places of business also took place in close proximity to police posts. Panicked phone calls made to the police, fire brigades, and even ambulance services generally proved futile. Many witnesses testified that their calls either went unanswered or that they were met with responses such as: "We don't have any orders to save you"; "We cannot help you, we have orders from above"; "If you wish to live in Hindustan, learn to protect yourself"; "How come you are alive? You should have died too"; "Whose house is on fire? Hindus' or Muslims'?"
  
  Surviving family members have faced the added trauma of having to fend for themselves in recovering and identifying the bodies of their loved ones. The bodies have been buried in mass gravesites throughout Ahmedabad. Gravediggers testified that most bodies that had arrived-many were still missing-were burned and butchered beyond recognition. Many were missing body parts-arms, legs, and even heads. The elderly and the handicapped were not spared. In some cases, pregnant women had their bellies cut open and their fetuses pulled out and hacked or burned before the women were killed.
  
  Muslims in Gujarat have been denied equal protection under the law. Even as attacks continue, the Gujarat state administration has been engaged in a massive cover-up of the state's role in the massacres and that of the sangh parivar. Eyewitnesses filed numerous police First Information Reports (FIRs), the initial reports of a crime recorded by the police, that named local VHP, BJP, and Bajrang Dal leaders as instigators or participants in the attacks. Few if any of these leaders have been arrested as the police, reportedly under instructions from the state, face continuous pressure not to arrest them or to reduce the severity of the charges filed. In many instances, the police have also refused to include in FIRs the names of perpetrators identified by the victims. Police have, however, filed false charges against Muslim youth arbitrarily detained during combing operations in Muslim neighborhoods that have been largely destroyed. The state government has entrusted a criminal probe into the deadliest of attacks in Ahmedabad, in the Naroda Patia and Gulmarg Society neighborhoods, to an officer handpicked by the VHP, the organization implicated in organizing and perpetrating these massacres.
  
  On April 3, India's National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) released the preliminary findings of its report on the violence, a strong indictment of the failure of the Gujarat government to contain the violence. As the commission awaited a response from the state government before releasing a comprehensive report, its very authority to intervene in the matter was being challenged in the state's High Court based on the fact that a state-appointed judicial commission of inquiry was already in place. Following the trail of other commissions of inquiry appointed by the state in the wake of communal riots in 1969 and 1985-whose recommendations have yet to be implemented-the current state commission inspires little hope of justice. One lawyer noted, "The state government is involved and is a party to what happened. How can a party appoint a judge? We cannot expect him to give justice." India's National Commission for Minorities (NCM) and National Commission for Women (NCW) have also been severely critical of the Gujarat government's response to the violence and its aftermath.
  
  Government figures indicate that more than 98,000 people are residing in over one hundred newly created relief camps throughout the state, an overwhelming majority of them Muslim. They hold little hope for justice and remain largely unprotected by the police and local authorities. One relief camp resident asked: "The same people who shot at us are now supposed to protect us? There is no faith in the police." A lack of faith has also kept many camp residents from approaching the police to file complaints. Fearing for their lives, or fearing arrest, many have also been unable to leave the camps to return to what is left of their homes.
  
  

 

[swaich]

Continued:

• "Govt bias even in compensation:"
  The disbursement of financial compensation and the process of rehabilitation for victims of the violence has been painstakingly slow and has failed to include all of those affected. Initially compensation was disbursed on a communal basis: the state government announced that the families of Hindus killed in Godhra would receive Rs. 200,000 (U.S.$4,094)[SUP]4[/SUP] while the families of Muslims killed in retaliatory attacks would receive Rs. 100,000-a statement that was later retracted, in part due to widespread criticism from nongovernmental organizations and Indian officials outside the state of Gujarat.
  
  Many Muslims do not have jobs to which to return-their employers have hired Hindus in their place. An economic boycott against Muslims in certain parts of the state has helped to ensure their continued and long-term impoverishment. Acute food shortages resulting in starvation have been reported in areas of Ahmedabad where Muslim communities are forced into isolation, afraid to leave their enclaves to get more supplies. Children's education has also been severely disrupted while the threat of measles and other outbreaks looms large in Ahmedabad camps.
  
  "Modi praising the restraint:"
  On April 4, Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee visited Gujarat and announced a federal relief package for riot victims. Vajpayee, who earlier described the burning alive of men, women, and children, as a "blot on the country's face," stated that the Godhra attack was "condemnable" but what followed was "madness." His comments stood in deep contrast to those of the state's chief minister, Narendra Modi, formerly a Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh volunteer and propagandist, who at the height of the carnage declared that, "The five crore [fifty million] people of Gujarat have shown remarkable restraint under grave provocation," referring to the Godhra attacks.
  
  
  
  This report is by no means a comprehensive account of the violence that began on February 27. Ahmedabad was only one of many cities affected. Reports from other areas indicate that the violence was statewide, affecting at least twenty-one cities and sixty-eight provinces. Information from these areas also suggest a consistent pattern in the methods used, undermining government assertions that these were "spontaneous" "communal riots."
• ​
• "What more can one say?"
  As one activist noted, "no riot lasts for three days without the active connivance of the state."

 

[tarzon]

Modi's interview with Shahid Siddiqui

​

In a candid interview to Urdu weekly Nai Duniya, Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi affirmed that he should be hanged if found guilty in the 2002 communal riots in the state.

The interview was conducted by Shahid Siddiqui, the magazine's editor and a former Rajya Sabha MP from the Samajwadi Party.

​

Q. Talking about the Gujarat riots (of 2002), it has been debated widely and it has been talked about for the past 10 years. After the Godhra incident and the burning of people in the train, why and how did you decide to transfer the bodies to Ahmedabad? Were you not aware of the repercussions?

A. I have explained this in detail to the Special Investigation Team and the Supreme Court. When the report has to come on that basis, it will come. The bodies have to be given to the respective families, you have to, isn't it? Can anyone take the bodies to the most tense areas? If there is a body, will you take it to Godhra? How will the situation improve if everyone starts moving to Godhra? The situation was tense in Godhra and the incident took place there. Secondly, the train was going to Ahmedabad and the passengers were from there, that means that it has to go Ahmedabad. Then what is the simple way to take the bodies to their families?

Like in every riot, they have to be peacefully handed over to them in hospital.

But that is what exactly happened. You listen to the truth. What you have been saying is on the basis of conjectures and lies. Listen, the truth is very interesting. The truth is not about the movement, you can read the issue of India Today on that incident. You can't keep all the bodies in Godhra, you should know to how to manage, it's an administrative duty.

All the persons who were killed were from north Gujarat, we had to take the bodies there. It was definite that you have shift them there, it's a different question that whether they should be taken individually or in a group, we had to shift them, there was no other option. Another question was whether to move them in the day or at night. The administration felt that they should be removed as subtly as possible to avoid further tension. It was done to maintain peace.

Another issue was whether to move them to the civil hospital; if we had moved them to Ahmedabad's civil hospital then it would have escalated violence as it was congested. It was the acumen of the administration to move them to civil hospital in Sola. Sola, at that time, was on the outskirts and it wasn't developed at that point of time.

All the bodies were brought to Sola's civil hospital which was in a jungle kind of area. Secondly, there were no processions taken out from there, the bodies were peacefully given to the families. Thirteen or 14 unidentified bodies were technically dealt with behind the hospital. This is how much we cared, but now if people are spreading lies (against me) then what can be done?

 

[tarzon]

We had to compete with the speed of TV news

Q. When there was news of disturbances, riots, killings in Ahmedabad, Gujarat, you must have been getting information about it. What preventive action did you take?

A. You usually appeal to the people, clamp a curfew. My first appeal was to Godhra in the evening saying that the administration will do its duty, the criminals will be punished, people should maintain peace and the usual things. All these things were seen on television and radio for which footage is available.

On the second day, the incident took place on February 27, I appealed in the evening and came back by 10-10.30 pm. I called up the officers, arranged for law and order, all the police force was called upon. India has not faced an incident like this before, the incident was dreadful. Earlier the newspapers took two days to publish incidents like these, the photographs and all usually takes two or three days (prior to Godhra). In this period the government machinery gets time to organise and manage things like sending police force and all.

But now it takes three minutes to show the incident (live) on television. It is obvious that the speed of television news was more than the government's speed. The first time in India, a government had to compete with the speed of television to deal in a situation like this. If I have to send telephonic information to Baroda, I can do it easily but if I have send a police force from Ahmedabad to Baroda, its going to take at least one and a half hours. This was the first time when the government force had to compete with the speed of television and it is a tough job for anyone.

I am not someone who compares it with other riots of the country. It's not right to say that, if it happened during 1984 then it's all right for it to happen now, I do not allow such comparisons. But, when the 1984 riots happened, what happened in the first 72 hours? Not a single tear gas shell was fired, not a single bullet was fired, there was no lathi-charge in the first 72 hours, there was only one lathi-charge and that to control the crowd at the place where Indira Gandhi's body was kept. Here, on the 27th, people were arrested in advance, curfew was imposed, tear gas was fired, bullets were fired and people were killed in the firing. This was the record.

Q. But your own people, officers and politicians and there were reports in newspapers stating that you asked the police officers to let people vent their anger for 48 hours? The (late) Haren Pandya said this, Sanjay Joshi also said it.

A. We have to trust the Supreme Court. The court has set up a committee and there is a report, instead of listening to me one should to trust the people who have investigated. This is the first time when there has been an inquiry on the riot, one should trust that. You should also trust the government. I will give you a sheet where it is mentioned about the government's action during the riots. You will get it with facts and figures. Now even the media is very vibrant.

Q. It was said that people were identified and killed, burned as if it was pre-planned or a list was available, how is it possible?

A. There is no question of how did it happen because it's all a pack of lies. One should rather read stories which report how Muslims were saved during riots, many others were saved. If you believe in these stories, then who would have survived?​

 

[tarzon]

'I went to all the places, cared for all of them'

Q. Your ministers were sitting in the control room, what were they doing?

A. All of these answers are with the SIT. The SIT has investigated all this. Yes, it's there but let the Muslims of India know, let them know what happened.It's all lies. These are baseless lies


Q. But there are records stating that they were in control rooms?

A. The Supreme Court has investigated the matter, wait for the report, my saying anything doesn't count.


Q. Did you roam around the city and go to refugee camps during the riots?
A. All the details are available. I went to all the places, cared for all of them. On those many PILs that were filed in the Gujarat high court, all the judgments are available. The government arranged well for the refugees. It is a myth which is being circulated that the Gujarat government did not run relief camps. Gujarat's specialty lies in its social fabric, that is why according to the scheme the government gives the management facility to the people. That is why in these camps the management was in the hands of Hindus and Muslims but the expenses were borne by the government.


Q. Do you have any record of the expenses of food and all?
A. Yes, we do have the records. That is why till date Gujarat has been credited with the best facilities in the relief camps. We even arranged studying facilities for the students who were appearing for their matriculation exams. They even fared well in their examinations. These things won't be discussed in the media, they have taken up the responsibility of keeping mum about these things.


Q. What did Atalji (Atal Bihari Vajpayee) say to you?
A. The video is available.


Q. Did he say anything to you in private, everything is not said in public?
A. Lies are being spread on the Rajdharma statement of Atalji. The CD is available where he says that he knows that Modiji followsRajdharma but that part is deleted.


Q. It has been 10 years, what did he say, what is to be done, what are you doing, what did he say?

A. All of us wanted to do good. All of us wanted that.

​

 

[tarzon]

Modi should be hanged if he committed such a crime

Q. After the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, Rajiv Gandhi apologised, even Sonia Gandhi apologised. Congress ministers like HKL Bhagat, Jagdish Tytler were removed despite the lack of evidence but you never regretted, nor apologised for the Gujarat riots as the head of the state government?


A. My statements given at that time should be read to know my thoughts and perception. I will give you my statements given to media at that time, in the heat of the moment, unlike now when we sit and discuss in air-conditioned rooms.



In my interview to Prabhu Chawla for Seedhi Baat in 2005 or 2006, he asked if I was willing to apologise, to that I responded that why should I be forgiven? If any head of state has committed such a crime then he should be hanged in public so that for the coming hundred years, no other head of state should ever think of committing such a heinous crime. If anyone pleads for their forgiveness, then they are encouraging such crimes.



If Narendra Modi has committed such a crime then he should be hanged, this is my upfront demand, but if people are attacking me with criticism for political purposes without considering my effort of saving peoples lives, then I don't have an answer for them.

Q. But still, don't you feel sad at what happened or the guilt of not being able to stop the violence?
A. No, I was able to stop it. I don't agree that I have not been able to stop it.

Q. But over 1,000 people were killed...
A. That is what I am saying, that we need to understand the incident.

Q. If I am the editor of the newspaper, then I am the one who is held accountable for misinformation, not my reporter.
A. Whatever I had said is available, I am not retracting. I am giving you the entire sheet, datewise, stating what I felt. Read that as well. Then you will feel that you have hurled baseless accusations at me. And instead of me apologising, you should apologise for the faulty reports.

Q. But still, it is said that the Supreme Court had to set up an SIT to probe the matter and your government did not take any significant step in implicating the accused and your government had released most of the people.​

 

[swaich]

If one sits down to do it, a lot of his statements in that Urdu newspaper can be proved as lies.

But while talking of Modi interviews, here's Modi running away scared:

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[tarzon]

Yes, the entire world and nation is trapped in lies, what to do?

A. No, there is a vested interest group. The SIT only deals with 8-9 cases, not more. In my state thousands of FIRs have been lodged, many people have been put behind bars. Till date not a single person has been punished for their offences in the 1984 (anti-Sikh) riots. People have been punished in over 50 cases in the 2002 riots, the judgments are out. In the two cases which you discuss a lot (Best Bakery and Bilkis Bano) as taken out of the state, the Gujarat police inquired about the Best Bakery case even after it was taken outside, who probed the case, who filed the charge-sheet, lodged the FIR and got the witnesses?
Everything was done by the Gujarat police.



Q. One judge in the high court set the accused free, then the case was taken by the Maharashtra court -- same documents, same procedure, same witness, same Gujarat police records -- but they were held guilty. Then tell me, how is the Gujarat police held accountable for it? There was no new charge-sheet, no new witness, no new investigation. You have actually distrusted the judiciary – the Gujarat judiciary -- and took it to the Maharashtra judiciary.

A. In the Bilkis Bano case, the Gujarat police conducted the investigation, people were held by the Gujarat police, the FIR and charge-sheet was done by the Gujarat police and later the case was given to the CBI. The CBI re-investigated the case and arrested 8-9 more people. The case was taken up in Maharshtra and the people who were held accountable by Gujarat's police were punished and the people were accused by the CBI were acquitted.

Only one person held guilty, (activist) Teesta Setelvad keeps saying this on television. One police officer was punished, because he delayed the submission of papers to the CBI, the delay was due to delay in translation, he was punished for this delay, not for the riots, punished for 2-3 months. Then tell me how are the Gujarat police responsible? These cases are still pending, what can be the reason behind it? The so-called secular people have taken 23 stays.


Q. There were reports that people are still being killed in encounters after the riots, prima facia evidence shows that they were fake encounters, why is it happening, what was the approach of administration?

A. I will tell you about the advertisement in Uttar Pradesh by Mayawati, the state which had you as a minister, says that law and order was restored after 396 encounters. In my state there were only 12 encounters and the cases are still running.

The national human right commission says there were 400 fake encounters in the last 10 years. The case is still pending in the Supreme Court about reinvestigating these cases, why are you only talking about Gujarat? This is a matter of concern, why is Gujarat being targeted? it is happening in UP, India, Mumbai, so why pick on Gujarat? People who are hell-bent on targeting Gujarat are doing so. Is this justice?