Rigvedic River Sarswati In India or Iran

Yes I agree....Indian origin theory is just right wing propaganda.....Recently ..they found lost saraswati in Yamuna Nagar.............ridiculous!!

Well summed up. There is no shred of evidence on the purported origin of the sacred Sarswati at the place being propagated. The people of Yamunanagar who are well aware about the geography and historical developments on the site are aghast to know about this ill conceived idea.
 
A little more. My guess is that the West Asian component's sources are J1, J2 and G Y-Dna haplogroups and they are also the ones who introduced farming to South Central Asia. They may be the inhabitants of Mehrgarh and other IVC sites. While the contributor of the European component mainly be the R1a1a.






Welcome friend

1-R1a are present in both area in india (Indo-European spoken and also Dravidian) and east europe largely then on which theory the map was created.

Did you please give some scientific journal papers who suggest a mass migration on genetic evidences. dienekes is a blog and

Eupedia is a discussion forum not a journal.

I am giving you a link of Geographic project begins by national geographic trust in 2005 to find human migration.......

genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
 
An inter-continental research in cellular molecular biology has debunked the Aryan invasion theory----
“We have conclusively proved that there never existed any Aryans or Dravidians in the Indian sub continent. The Aryan-Dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University.
The findings of a three-year research by a team of scientists, including Prof Singh and others from various countries, has been published by American Journal of Human Genetics in its issue dated December 9.
“The study effectively puts to rest the argument that south Indians are Dravidians and were driven to the peninsula by Aryans who invaded North India,” said Prof Singh, a molecular biologist and former chief of Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad.

According to Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia, who was another Indian member of the team, the leaders of Dravidian political parties may have to find another answer for their raison d'être. “We have proved that people all over India have common genetic traits and origin. All Indians have the same DNA structure. No foreign genes or DNA has entered the Indian mainstream in the last 60,000 years,” Dr Chaubey said.
Dr Chaubey had proved in 2009 itself that the Aryan invasion theory is bunkum. “That was based on low resolution genetic markers. This time we have used autosomes, which means all major 23 chromosomes, for our studies. The decoding of human genome and other advances in this area help us in unraveling the ancestry in 60,000 years,” he explained.
However, Gnani Shankaran, noted Dravidian thinker, said the time for writing the last word on Dravidian philosophy has not yet come.
“We have to find out the credentials of the authors of this research paper and their hidden agenda. In Tamil Nadu, the Dravidian and Aryan ties are inter-related. The Dalits in our land are the descendents of the Dravidian Brahmins who were pushed to the lowest strata of society by the Aryans,” Shankaran said.
According to Prof Singh, Dr Chaubey, and Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj, another member of the team, the findings disprove the caste theory prevailing in India. Interestingly, the team found that instead of Aryan invasion, it was Indians who moved from the subcontinent to Europe. “That’s the reason behind the findings of the same genetic traits in Eurasiain regions,” said Dr Thangaraj, senior scientist, CCMB.
“Africans came to India through Central Asia during 80,000 to 60,000 BCE and they moved to Europe sometime around 30,000 BCE. The Indian Vedic literature and the epics are all silent about the Aryan-Dravidian conflict,” said Dr S Kalyanaraman, a proponent of the Saraswathi civilization which developed along the banks of the now defunct River Saraswathi.
 
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1- The Aryan Invasion Theory:The Final Nail in its Coffin
​
(From a Chapter in "Advancements of Ancient India's Vedic Culture')
by Stephen Knapp​



http://www.stephen-knapp.com/aryan_invasion_theory_the_final_nail_in_its_coffin.htm


[h=2]2-Ancient Indian records have absolutely no mention of such a theory[/h]Strange as it may sound, none of the epics, puranas or scriptures mentions anything even remotely close to Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT). This theory, however, had stated that the Vedic literature goes back to the 2nd millennium BC.
1a.jpg

​


3- INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION (MORE THEN 7000 BC Old Civilization)
-----The mature phase of the Harappan civilisation lasted from c. 2600 to 1900 BCE. With the inclusion of the predecessor and successor cultures — Early Harappan and Late Harappan, respectively — the entire Indus Valley Civilization may be taken to have lasted from the 33rd to the 14th centuries BCE. The early Harappan cultures are preceded by the Mehrgarh (c.7000-3300 BCE), with Bhirrana even dating back to 7570-6200 BCE, according to a December 2014 report by the Archaeological Survey of India.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]

Two terms are employed for the periodisation of the IVC: Phases and Eras.[SUP][34][/SUP][SUP][35][/SUP] The Early Harappan, Mature Harappan, and Late Harappan phases are also called the Regionalisation, Integration, and Localisation eras, respectively, with the Regionalization era reaching back to the Neolithic Mehrgarh II period, the discovery of which "changed the entire concept of the Indus civilization", according to Ahmad Hasan Dani, professor emeritus at Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad. "There we have the whole sequence, right from the beginning of settled village life."[SUP][36][/SUP]
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Dates[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center"]Phase[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Era[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7570–6200 BCE[/TD]
[TD]pre-Harappan[/TD]
[TD]Bhirrana (aceramic Neolithic)[SUP][3][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Early Food-Producing Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7000–5500 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Mehrgarh I (aceramic Neolithic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5500–3300[/TD]
[TD]Mehrgarh II-VI (ceramic Neolithic)[/TD]
[TD]Regionalisation Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3300–2800[/TD]
[TD]Early Harappan[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 1 (Ravi Phase)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2800–2600[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 2 (Kot Diji Phase, Nausharo I, Mehrgarh VII)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2600–2450[/TD]
[TD]Mature Harappan (Indus Valley Civilization)[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 3A (Nausharo II)[/TD]
[TD]Integration Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2450–2200[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 3B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2200–1900[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 3C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1900–1700[/TD]
[TD]Late Harappan (Cemetery H); Ochre Coloured Pottery[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 4[/TD]
[TD]Localisation Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1700–1300[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1300–300[/TD]
[TD]Post-Harappan[/TD]
[TD]Painted Gray Ware, Northern Black Polished Ware (Iron Age), Indo-Gangetic Tradition[/TD]
[TD]Vedic period, Second urbanisation[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
4- Dwarka : A submerged city under sea excavation by archaeological survey of India dated by carbon dating around 1700 BC then how it is possible that lothal (Indus Valley site) and dwarka is (not so far ) had two distinct language script and culture.

One of the main controversies is a piece of wood, that was carbon dated to around 7500 BCE, a date, which is used in arguments for a very early date for a city here.Dr. D.P. Agrawal, chairman of the Paleoclimate Group and founder of Carbon-14 testing facilities in India, stated in an article in Frontline Magazine, that the piece was dated twice, at separate laboratories.[SUP][9][/SUP] The NGRI in Hyderabad returned a date of 7190 BC and the BSIP in Hannover returned a date of 7545-7490 BC.
 
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A little more. My guess is that the West Asian component's sources are J1, J2 and G Y-Dna haplogroups and they are also the ones who introduced farming to South Central Asia. They may be the inhabitants of Mehrgarh and other IVC sites. While the contributor of the European component mainly be the R1a1a.






Welcome friend

1-R1a are present in both area in india (Indo-European spoken and also Dravidian) and east europe largely then on which theory the map was created.

Did you please give some scientific journal papers who suggest a mass migration on genetic evidences. dienekes is a blog and

Eupedia is a discussion forum not a journal.

I am giving you a link of Geographic project begins by national geographic trust in 2005 to find human migration.......

genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/


Dienekes blog is discussing the information about scientific papers, if you follow the directions it will lead you to those papers.

https://www.academia.edu/11530946/В...--it_gets_badly_distorted_in_the_preview_mode

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTQlmGP9Zog

http://www.astanatimes.com/2015/02/scandinavian-team-searches-indo-european-homeland-kazakhstan-dna/

http://www.linguisticsociety.org/files/news/ChangEtAlPreprint.pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14507.html

Please learn how the Y-Dna works and then we can talk about it further. Even Dravidians may not be locals to India, Elamites most likely. Onge probably the oldest aboriginal of India and Panya another one and have little if any R1a and that is also NPEs.

Mehrgarh and another IVC sites most likely belonged to J2, the agriculturists from the Fertile Crescent, G may have been a part to that too, also L-M357 might have some input especially to the West Asian and Euro conponent while the major part of Euro component came from R1a1a.

Indian Nationalist's theories fail to explain the high Euro component found in Northern Indians which is absent in the tribal populations of India.

You don't need to quote the National Geographic, I know how useless that test is, as I am tested with them, 23andMe, FTDNA and WGS https://www.fullgenomes.com/
 
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An inter-continental research in cellular molecular biology has debunked the Aryan invasion theory----
“We have conclusively proved that there never existed any Aryans or Dravidians in the Indian sub continent. The Aryan-Dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University.
The findings of a three-year research by a team of scientists, including Prof Singh and others from various countries, has been published by American Journal of Human Genetics in its issue dated December 9.
“The study effectively puts to rest the argument that south Indians are Dravidians and were driven to the peninsula by Aryans who invaded North India,” said Prof Singh, a molecular biologist and former chief of Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad.

According to Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia, who was another Indian member of the team, the leaders of Dravidian political parties may have to find another answer for their raison d'être. “We have proved that people all over India have common genetic traits and origin. All Indians have the same DNA structure. No foreign genes or DNA has entered the Indian mainstream in the last 60,000 years,” Dr Chaubey said.
Dr Chaubey had proved in 2009 itself that the Aryan invasion theory is bunkum. “That was based on low resolution genetic markers. This time we have used autosomes, which means all major 23 chromosomes, for our studies. The decoding of human genome and other advances in this area help us in unraveling the ancestry in 60,000 years,” he explained.
However, Gnani Shankaran, noted Dravidian thinker, said the time for writing the last word on Dravidian philosophy has not yet come.
“We have to find out the credentials of the authors of this research paper and their hidden agenda. In Tamil Nadu, the Dravidian and Aryan ties are inter-related. The Dalits in our land are the descendents of the Dravidian Brahmins who were pushed to the lowest strata of society by the Aryans,” Shankaran said.
According to Prof Singh, Dr Chaubey, and Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj, another member of the team, the findings disprove the caste theory prevailing in India. Interestingly, the team found that instead of Aryan invasion, it was Indians who moved from the subcontinent to Europe. “That’s the reason behind the findings of the same genetic traits in Eurasiain regions,” said Dr Thangaraj, senior scientist, CCMB.
“Africans came to India through Central Asia during 80,000 to 60,000 BCE and they moved to Europe sometime around 30,000 BCE. The Indian Vedic literature and the epics are all silent about the Aryan-Dravidian conflict,” said Dr S Kalyanaraman, a proponent of the Saraswathi civilization which developed along the banks of the now defunct River Saraswathi.

We are not talking here of Onge and Panya etc, but R1a1a, which is not that old at all. Even if one can prove without any doubt that R haplogroup originated in India, there is no evidence to date that R1a Z283 or R1a Z93 mutations took place in India, all evidence to date points towards Eurasia only.
 
Last edited:
1- The Aryan Invasion Theory:The Final Nail in its Coffin
​
(From a Chapter in "Advancements of Ancient India's Vedic Culture')
by Stephen Knapp​



http://www.stephen-knapp.com/aryan_invasion_theory_the_final_nail_in_its_coffin.htm


2-Ancient Indian records have absolutely no mention of such a theory

Strange as it may sound, none of the epics, puranas or scriptures mentions anything even remotely close to Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT). This theory, however, had stated that the Vedic literature goes back to the 2nd millennium BC.
1a.jpg

​


3- INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION (MORE THEN 7000 BC Old Civilization)
-----The mature phase of the Harappan civilisation lasted from c. 2600 to 1900 BCE. With the inclusion of the predecessor and successor cultures — Early Harappan and Late Harappan, respectively — the entire Indus Valley Civilization may be taken to have lasted from the 33rd to the 14th centuries BCE. The early Harappan cultures are preceded by the Mehrgarh (c.7000-3300 BCE), with Bhirrana even dating back to 7570-6200 BCE, according to a December 2014 report by the Archaeological Survey of India.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]

Two terms are employed for the periodisation of the IVC: Phases and Eras.[SUP][34][/SUP][SUP][35][/SUP] The Early Harappan, Mature Harappan, and Late Harappan phases are also called the Regionalisation, Integration, and Localisation eras, respectively, with the Regionalization era reaching back to the Neolithic Mehrgarh II period, the discovery of which "changed the entire concept of the Indus civilization", according to Ahmad Hasan Dani, professor emeritus at Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad. "There we have the whole sequence, right from the beginning of settled village life."[SUP][36][/SUP]
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Dates[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center"]Phase[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Era[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7570–6200 BCE[/TD]
[TD]pre-Harappan[/TD]
[TD]Bhirrana (aceramic Neolithic)[SUP][3][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Early Food-Producing Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7000–5500 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Mehrgarh I (aceramic Neolithic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5500–3300[/TD]
[TD]Mehrgarh II-VI (ceramic Neolithic)[/TD]
[TD]Regionalisation Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3300–2800[/TD]
[TD]Early Harappan[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 1 (Ravi Phase)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2800–2600[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 2 (Kot Diji Phase, Nausharo I, Mehrgarh VII)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2600–2450[/TD]
[TD]Mature Harappan (Indus Valley Civilization)[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 3A (Nausharo II)[/TD]
[TD]Integration Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2450–2200[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 3B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2200–1900[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 3C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1900–1700[/TD]
[TD]Late Harappan (Cemetery H); Ochre Coloured Pottery[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 4[/TD]
[TD]Localisation Era[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1700–1300[/TD]
[TD]Harappan 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1300–300[/TD]
[TD]Post-Harappan[/TD]
[TD]Painted Gray Ware, Northern Black Polished Ware (Iron Age), Indo-Gangetic Tradition[/TD]
[TD]Vedic period, Second urbanisation[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
4- Dwarka : A submerged city under sea excavation by archaeological survey of India dated by carbon dating around 1700 BC then how it is possible that lothal (Indus Valley site) and dwarka is (not so far ) had two distinct language script and culture.

One of the main controversies is a piece of wood, that was carbon dated to around 7500 BCE, a date, which is used in arguments for a very early date for a city here.Dr. D.P. Agrawal, chairman of the Paleoclimate Group and founder of Carbon-14 testing facilities in India, stated in an article in Frontline Magazine, that the piece was dated twice, at separate laboratories.[SUP][9][/SUP] The NGRI in Hyderabad returned a date of 7190 BC and the BSIP in Hannover returned a date of 7545-7490 BC.


Indo-Aryans been Nomads, moving on their Raths and horses with their cattles from place to place just like the Central Asian Nomads of today, they were not agriculturists like IVC populations. Changing the contents of the so called Holy Books from time to time to suite your Supermacy Theory does not prove that they are ancient but quite the opposite, the unreliable sources.

If the IVC belonged to Indo Aryans then why is not the R1a-Z283 is found in India, it splits from R1a Z93 only around 5000 years back, while the IVC is around 9500 years old?
 
Last edited:
1- The Aryan Invasion Theory:The Final Nail in its Coffin
​
(From a Chapter in "Advancements of Ancient India's Vedic Culture')
by Stephen Knapp​



http://www.stephen-knapp.com/aryan_invasion_theory_the_final_nail_in_its_coffin.htm



2-Ancient Indian records have absolutely no mention of such a theory

Strange as it may sound, none of the epics, puranas or scriptures mentions anything even remotely close to Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT). This theory, however, had stated that the Vedic literature goes back to the 2nd millennium BC.
1a.jpg

​
......................

There is no dearth of literary references in Vedas, other vedic literature, Puranas and Epics to prove that so called Indo-Aryans earlier lived around Pamir and beyond. For detailed references one can read our earlier discussions on the issue in a few threads !

The title of the paper itself smacks of bias of the author as the work on the issue is not over as researchers throughout world are engaged in solving the knot.
 
Indo Aryans moved in this part of country at various stages gradually and their spread was not in one go. For example see below given instance of one of the invasions of the Aryan Deva Worshipers to get cows and wealth of the settled people, perhaps they were their own kinsmen earlier and
who had came there in earlier times !

If the city dwellers were not attacked by Indra and their forts and abodes destroyed what for stuti makes an important part of the Rigvedic hymns. Kindly elaborate.
 
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Indo-Aryans been Nomads, moving on their Raths and horses with their cattles from place to place just like the Central Asian Nomads of today, they were not agriculturists like IVC populations. Changing the contents of the so called Holy Books from time to time to suite your Supermacy Theory does not prove that they are ancient but quite the opposite, the unreliable sources.

If the IVC belonged to Indo Aryans then why is not the R1a-Z283 is found in India, it splits from R1a Z93 only around 5000 years back, while the IVC is around 9500 years old?



I am not talking about IVC was IA sites. IVC belongs to dravidians.Why we call aryans only to R1a1a,Aryans were nomadic while at that time many civilizations get advancement .........They more possibly the ancestors of R haplogroup.....

View attachment 17504
According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of haplogroup F might have originated in or near India, and F-M89* might share a common demographic history with H-M69, C5, R2 and L1. The presence of several subclusters of F-M89 and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there. F2-M427 is found in the Dravidian, Indo-European,Sino-Tibetan and Tibeto-Burman populations in China, Nepal and India, and the minor sub-groups of F-M89 are also observed in Siberia by Balanovsk et al. (2008), and in Indonesia by Hammer et al. (2006). F*(xG,H,I,J,K) is also found among Turkic people in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, which is reported in the genetic study of Balaresque et al. (2015).
 
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I am not talking about IVC was IA sites. IVC belongs to dravidians.Why we call aryans only to R1a1a,Aryans were nomadic while at that time many civilizations get advancement .........They more possibly the ancestors of R haplogroup.....

View attachment 17504
According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of haplogroup F might have originated in or near India, and F-M89* might share a common demographic history with H-M69, C5, R2 and L1. The presence of several subclusters of F-M89 and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there. F2-M427 is found in the Dravidian, Indo-European,Sino-Tibetan and Tibeto-Burman populations in China, Nepal and India, and the minor sub-groups of F-M89 are also observed in Siberia by Balanovsk et al. (2008), and in Indonesia by Hammer et al. (2006). F*(xG,H,I,J,K) is also found among Turkic people in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, which is reported in the genetic study of Balaresque et al. (2015).

It is not necessary that IVC belongs to Dravidians, they seem to be of Elamite origin, so outsiders again. Your map shows that the origin of R1a is not India. By your logic F lineage is an offshoot of A00 African thus F is African, which is not the case. A haplogroup is supposed to have originated in the area where its defining mutation had occurred, so tracing R1a back to India just because its parental haplogroup is found there is not the right thing to do. Generally the diversification is used to determine the area of origin of a Haplogroup not its quantity.

R1a1a is generally considered responsible for the spread of the Indo European languages, as the Vedas etc. are written in an Indo European language, so the so called Aryan people of the Vedas are considered to be the R1a1a people, now according to this map R1a1a people have their origin outside of India, and if that is true, then how come these people are found in India all of a sudden? Not only that they are in India now, but they are a dominating group too, and that generally doesn't happen unless such a group is huge in numbers, the mass migration.
 
Dear friend

1-You know very well that Haplogroup F originate in Indian subcontinant and F is the ancestor haplogroup of all settlement in the world after outside africa.
2-some of recent research indicate westward migration Haplogroup R1a1 or M17(underhill 2009)
LocationT[SUB]D[/SUB]
W. India15,800
Pakistan15,000
Nepal14,200
India14,000
Oman12,500
N. India12,400
S. India12,400
Caucasus12,200
E. India11,800
Poland11,300
Slovakia11,200
Crete11,200
Germany9,900
Denmark9,700
UAE

<tbody>
</tbody>
3- R1 is common ancestors of R1a and R1b and M17 were the descendant of R1a and this M17 is in the center of study and probably called Aryan which is part of indo-european. R1 can be distinguished as indo-european.
 
Haplogroup R-M420 (R1a)--- which later subdivided in to R-M17 (R1a1a)]

The highest levels of R-M420 (>50%) are found across the Eurasian Steppe: Khotons of Uvs Province (82.5%),[SUP][6][/SUP] West BengalBrahmins (72%), and Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, (67%), the Ishkashimi (68%), the Tajik population of Panjikent (64%), the Kyrgyzpopulation of Central Kyrgyzstan (63.5%), Sorbs (63.39%), Bihar Brahmins (60.53%), Shors (58.8%),[SUP][7][/SUP] Poles (56.4%), Teleuts(55.3%),[SUP][7][/SUP] South Altaians (58.1%),[SUP][8][/SUP] Ukrainians (50%) and Russians (50%) (Semino 2000, Wells 2001, Behar 2003, and Sharma 2007).

R-M420 has been variously associated with:

  • the re-colonization of Eurasia during the Late Glacial Maximum (Semino 2000 and Passarino 2002).
  • the expansion of the Kurgan people from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, which is associated with the spread of the Indo-European languages (Semino 2000 and Wells 2001).
The Modern studies for R-M17 suggest that it could have originated in South Asia. It could have found its way initially from Western India (Gujarat) through Pakistan and Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming to Europe"..."as part of an archaeologically dated Paleolithic movement from east to west 30,000 years ago (Underhill 2009).
 
Dear friend

1-You know very well that Haplogroup F originate in Indian subcontinant and F is the ancestor haplogroup of all settlement in the world after outside africa.
2-some of recent research indicate westward migration Haplogroup R1a1 or M17(underhill 2009)
LocationT[SUB]D[/SUB]
W. India15,800
Pakistan15,000
Nepal14,200
India14,000
Oman12,500
N. India12,400
S. India12,400
Caucasus12,200
E. India11,800
Poland11,300
Slovakia11,200
Crete11,200
Germany9,900
Denmark9,700
UAE

<tbody>
</tbody>
3- R1 is common ancestors of R1a and R1b and M17 were the descendant of R1a and this M17 is in the center of study and probably called Aryan which is part of indo-european. R1 can be distinguished as indo-european.


Old outdated stuff. I suggest that you study thoroughly whatever you can get your hands on about Y-Dna and then we will talk further. R1a and R1b are brother haplogroups, both present in Eurasia yet no R1b to be seen in Indian populations, ask yourself why?

You admit that IVC is not Indo Aryan, so it is not R1a-L657>Y9>Y7, in other words the ones we know as Indo Aryans were not in India 4000 ybp, yet you claim that something as old as 16000 yrs has gone from India to Europe. If the R1a1a was in India all along, ask yourself why they were not a part of the IVC?

Also see the time line too. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

I suggest you get a Y-Dna test done and based on the results your interest may change. Jatts main Y lineages are R1a-L657, L-M357, R2, J2, find out which one you belong to and what it's possible history is. Also, please do encourage other people to get this test done, as one's true lineage is only his Y lineage and rest is only good for bed time stories.

Google Malta boy Y lineage and see if he is from India and when? I believe he is R1a.

http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-native-americans-europeans

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3807-David-Reich-lecture-9-February-2015/page99

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?102904-Palaeloithic-Siberians-full-DNA-results

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-upper-paleolithic-lake.html

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[TD="class: LeftAlign, bgcolor: #FFFFFF, colspan: 106"]Matches for Clovis Anzick-1 (Ancient) 12,500 years[/TD]
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https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ancient_DNA?iframe=yresults
 
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Haplogroup R-M420 (R1a)--- which later subdivided in to R-M17 (R1a1a)]

The highest levels of R-M420 (>50%) are found across the Eurasian Steppe: Khotons of Uvs Province (82.5%),[SUP][6][/SUP] West BengalBrahmins (72%), and Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, (67%), the Ishkashimi (68%), the Tajik population of Panjikent (64%), the Kyrgyzpopulation of Central Kyrgyzstan (63.5%), Sorbs (63.39%), Bihar Brahmins (60.53%), Shors (58.8%),[SUP][7][/SUP] Poles (56.4%), Teleuts(55.3%),[SUP][7][/SUP] South Altaians (58.1%),[SUP][8][/SUP] Ukrainians (50%) and Russians (50%) (Semino 2000, Wells 2001, Behar 2003, and Sharma 2007).

R-M420 has been variously associated with:

  • the re-colonization of Eurasia during the Late Glacial Maximum (Semino 2000 and Passarino 2002).
  • the expansion of the Kurgan people from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, which is associated with the spread of the Indo-European languages (Semino 2000 and Wells 2001).
The Modern studies for R-M17 suggest that it could have originated in South Asia. It could have found its way initially from Western India (Gujarat) through Pakistan and Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming to Europe"..."as part of an archaeologically dated Paleolithic movement from east to west 30,000 years ago (Underhill 2009).

Please look into some information that is on these links.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/science/dna-deciphers-roots-of-modern-europeans.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/2015/06/101-ancient-eurasian-genomes.html

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/eastern-europe-as-bifurcation-hotspot.html

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/the-teal-people-did-they-actually-exist.html

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/3-pop-analysis-featuring-19-ancient.html

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread/page109
 
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Indian Nationalist's theories fail to explain the high Euro component found in Northern Indians which is absent in the tribal populations of India.

You don't need to quote the National Geographic, I know how useless that test is, as I am tested with them, 23andMe, FTDNA and WGS https://www.fullgenomes.com/

Can Alexander's army have a role in high European component or NE is older than that?. I saw few people taking discussion in that side in insulting manner while talking about jatt high euro comp
 
Haplogroup R-M420 (R1a)--- which later subdivided in to R-M17 (R1a1a)]

The highest levels of R-M420 (>50%) are found across the Eurasian Steppe: Khotons of Uvs Province (82.5%),[SUP][6][/SUP] West BengalBrahmins (72%), and Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, (67%), the Ishkashimi (68%), the Tajik population of Panjikent (64%), the Kyrgyzpopulation of Central Kyrgyzstan (63.5%), Sorbs (63.39%), Bihar Brahmins (60.53%), Shors (58.8%),[SUP][7][/SUP] Poles (56.4%), Teleuts(55.3%),[SUP][7][/SUP] South Altaians (58.1%),[SUP][8][/SUP] Ukrainians (50%) and Russians (50%) (Semino 2000, Wells 2001, Behar 2003, and Sharma 2007).

R-M420 has been variously associated with:

  • the re-colonization of Eurasia during the Late Glacial Maximum (Semino 2000 and Passarino 2002).
  • the expansion of the Kurgan people from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, which is associated with the spread of the Indo-European languages (Semino 2000 and Wells 2001).
The Modern studies for R-M17 suggest that it could have originated in South Asia. It could have found its way initially from Western India (Gujarat) through Pakistan and Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming to Europe"..."as part of an archaeologically dated Paleolithic movement from east to west 30,000 years ago (Underhill 2009).

Bhai chillar!

I appreciate your interest in the field but beware of kachhadhari brahmin propaganda...abhi haryana gov ne yamuna nagar main saraswati khoz di aur gov. ne usse declare kar dia....what do you think about that?..

yeh kachhadhari brahmin shayd khud bhi videshi hai....they have high euro component
 
Thanks for sharing further links on the issue.

But the subject for us is new one and we woud like to know some concrete and tangible conclusions which have been/could be derived on the basis of all these results
Could you enlighten us !

May be we need a new thread on Jatt Genetics and related posts should be moved to that thread. Can you please do that for us? Thanks.

While Jatts belong only to a few genetic lineages, yet seem to have countless gotras, and that makes one wonder why? Y-Dna test can tell one who one is related to, and how old that relationship is, based on those results one can easily ascertain the original gotra and the offshoots then can be dropped in favour of the original family name, and in my opinion that certainly need to be done. Another thing is that it will also expose the fake Jatt element, and how to deal with that is up to the community.

The links basically were for those who claim that Indo Aryans are the aboriginal people of India, the Dna evidence does not support that theory at all.
 
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