Ill-treatment of Jawans in Army

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yatinder19

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Army Jawans are basic of our defence system.They are very hardworking and do a lot of hard work.They do all the dirty work and getting very less salary.But this is part of their duty and work should be done.
But what I am seeing Army officers are using them for all their personal work.I am staying in a Society where most of army officers are staying,when they will come,they bring 4-5 soldiers with them.They will clean their houses,will carry their heavy luggages and they all do all these things in their heavy respected uniform.What a respect to the uniform.Usually all officers take undue advantage of them,officers's wife make them to do all their dirty works.This is pathetic.
Earlier before independance,Britishers were the officers and they used to treat soldiers like that.But now country is independent but this tradition is still there in army.
What I have more observed is that,first generation officers in army are gentle and they treat people with dignity.But second generation(army officers son of army officer) officers are really lacks quality of officers and they treat jawans in a very bad ways.
What i feel Rifle looks better insted of officer's family members's shoes in soldiers hand.
 
Yes!

I am fully agree!

Yes! Our soldiers are suffering too much.
Regarding their family needs also.
A soldier also has a family, children. He also has to look after their needs like education, marriage etc.

They really deserve a "GOOD SALERY & RESPECT". So as to fetch quality in the defense.

Fortunately Govt doing some favour also for this.

Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan.
 
yatinder19 said:
Army Jawans are basic of our defence system.They are very hardworking and do a lot of hard work.They do all the dirty work and getting very less salary.But this is part of their duty and work should be done.
But what I am seeing Army officers are using them for all their personal work.I am staying in a Society where most of army officers are staying,when they will come,they bring 4-5 soldiers with them.They will clean their houses,will carry their heavy luggages and they all do all these things in their heavy respected uniform.What a respect to the uniform.Usually all officers take undue advantage of them,officers's wife make them to do all their dirty works.This is pathetic.
Earlier before independance,Britishers were the officers and they used to treat soldiers like that.But now country is independent but this tradition is still there in army.
What I have more observed is that,first generation officers in army are gentle and they treat people with dignity.But second generation(army officers son of army officer) officers are really lacks quality of officers and they treat jawans in a very bad ways.
What i feel Rifle looks better insted of officer's family members's shoes in soldiers hand.
Click to expand...
This is abominable. My father is a retired Colonel from the army. We also had a couple of Jawans living with us. But my mother always treated them very well - like her own kids, did not ever make them do any embarrasing stuff. I used to call them bhaiyya and hang out with them all the time - eat lunch play cricket in the evening. The work they did was mostly gardening stuff and getting stuff from the canteen and market. I agree that even these things should not be a part of their work - but the thing is most jawans who stay with officers are given a choice not to stay - many volunteer for it because it is easier if the officer is good. If they stay with the officer, they dont have to go to PT at 4:30 AM - they dont have to answer to any JCO's or seniors. They can get extra booze from the canteen through the officer and it is easier to get leave. If the officer is stationed away from the regiment then they have a lot of freedom as they are out of the army discipline loop. It is a symbiotic relationship.
I personally think this practice should end.
If the officer or his family is bad - I have seen some really nasty officers and their wives treating jawans badly - infact I know a couple of them as we speak it becomes hard for the Jawan.
This is a problem of ethics - Indians donot value labor and they look down upon people who are lower in stature compared to them. This also happens to domestic servants - BTW servant is a colonial word with connotation of slavery.
 
This is abominable. My father is a retired jawan from the army. We also had a couple of officers living with us. But I never called them bhaiya or hanged out with them or ate lunch and play cricket in evening. The work they mostly did was to make jawans do gardening stuff and getting stuff from the canteen and market. I agree that even these things should not be a part of their work (Here, thanks Chikara for agreeing with me, we badly needed such agreement). Jawans who stayed were given a choice not to stay (again thanks for giving a choice) but some stayed anyway because they didn't need to have to go to PT at 4:30am (where coercion fails, incentive pervails). Also they can get extra booze and what's few hours of gardening compared to that, given that officer is good and officer's son also gives respect by calling bhaiya. It's symbiotic relationship. But it's not as bad as other officers who treated jawans more badly. (notice; quantification of 'more' and 'less' is very crucial here). There were some who didn't treat badly at all, rather they treated very nicely, but they just had to keep their gardens clean (after all an officer have to live like other officers). It is easier to be nice when gardens are clean. Gardening would be such a easy task for a Jawan compared to the tilling and cutting crops during his 3 months of vacations. More over, some jawans may even like gardening, you never know they might be missing toil in fields in their villages. (Here Indians beat nature in symbiosis.)

It's ethics problem. Indian mind is highly evolved to make best use of beurocracy. These traits combined with their fascination with classification (be it caste, army rank, social status, money or whatever) make them very interesting people.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15707&highlight=army+vinod

-vinod

sidchhikara said:
This is abominable. My father is a retired Colonel from the army. We also had a couple of Jawans living with us. But my mother always treated them very well - like her own kids, did not ever make them do any embarrasing stuff. I used to call them bhaiyya and hang out with them all the time - eat lunch play cricket in the evening. The work they did was mostly gardening stuff and getting stuff from the canteen and market. I agree that even these things should not be a part of their work - but the thing is most jawans who stay with officers are given a choice not to stay - many volunteer for it because it is easier if the officer is good. If they stay with the officer, they dont have to go to PT at 4:30 AM - they dont have to answer to any JCO's or seniors. They can get extra booze from the canteen through the officer and it is easier to get leave. If the officer is stationed away from the regiment then they have a lot of freedom as they are out of the army discipline loop. It is a symbiotic relationship.
I personally think this practice should end.
If the officer or his family is bad - I have seen some really nasty officers and their wives treating jawans badly - infact I know a couple of them as we speak it becomes hard for the Jawan.
This is a problem of ethics - Indians donot value labor and they look down upon people who are lower in stature compared to them. This also happens to domestic servants - BTW servant is a colonial word with connotation of slavery.
Click to expand...
 
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sidchhikara said:
This is abominable. My father is a retired Colonel from the army. We also had a couple of Jawans living with us. But my mother always treated them very well - like her own kids, did not ever make them do any embarrasing stuff. I used to call them bhaiyya and hang out with them all the time - eat lunch play cricket in the evening. The work they did was mostly gardening stuff and getting stuff from the canteen and market. I agree that even these things should not be a part of their work - but the thing is most jawans who stay with officers are given a choice not to stay - many volunteer for it because it is easier if the officer is good. If they stay with the officer, they dont have to go to PT at 4:30 AM - they dont have to answer to any JCO's or seniors. They can get extra booze from the canteen through the officer and it is easier to get leave. If the officer is stationed away from the regiment then they have a lot of freedom as they are out of the army discipline loop. It is a symbiotic relationship.
I personally think this practice should end.
If the officer or his family is bad - I have seen some really nasty officers and their wives treating jawans badly - infact I know a couple of them as we speak it becomes hard for the Jawan.
This is a problem of ethics - Indians donot value labor and they look down upon people who are lower in stature compared to them. This also happens to domestic servants - BTW servant is a colonial word with connotation of slavery.
Click to expand...
Hi Sid
You are right.
I am saying,situation is better when this is in first generation,But when it comes to second generation,children of officers who themselves are officer dont treat them properly because they have grown up seeing them like that.This is like feudalism.
And story dont stop up to gardening and carrying things from canteen.Car washing,luggage shifting,cleaning etc etc.
Thats why there is gap between jawans and officers and very less no. of officers are popular in their Jawans.
I think these are not parts of their duty.
 
vinodks said:
This is abominable. My father is a retired jawan from the army. We also had a couple of officers living with us. But I never called them bhaiya or hanged out with them or ate lunch and play cricket in evening. The work they mostly did was to make jawans do gardening stuff and getting stuff from the canteen and market. I agree that even these things should not be a part of their work (Here, thanks Chikara for agreeing with me, we badly needed such agreement). Jawans who stayed were given a choice not to stay (again thanks for giving a choice) but some stayed anyway because they didn't need to have to go to PT at 4:30am (where coercion fails, incentive pervails). Also they can get extra booze and what's few hours of gardening compared to that, given that officer is good and officer's son also gives respect by calling bhaiya. It's symbiotic relationship. But it's not as bad as other officers who treated jawans more badly. (notice; quantification of 'more' and 'less' is very crucial here). There were some who didn't treat badly at all, rather they treated very nicely, but they just had to keep their gardens clean (after all an officer have to live like other officers). It is easier to be nice when gardens are clean. Gardening would be such a easy task for a Jawan compared to the tilling and cutting crops during his 3 months of vacations. More over, some jawans may even like gardening, you never know they might be missing toil in fields in their villages. (Here Indians beat nature in symbiosis.)

It's ethics problem. Indian mind is highly evolved to make best use of beurocracy. These traits combined with their fascination with classification (be it caste, army rank, social status, money or whatever) make them very interesting people.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15707&highlight=army+vinod

-vinod
Click to expand...
Hi Vinod
You have written really well.Indian mind is highly evolved to make best use of beurocracy.This is best line.
Army Ranks are only Designation,but some people are using it for their personal needs and satisfying their feudal nature.
So many Jats are officer,so I want to see some more responses from the people.

 
Dont call it a British tradition. The British used to allow one orderly per officer. And the sole purpose of the orderly was to take care of the officer's service uniform along with other minor welfare. An orderly was more like the officer's secretary at home.

Now things have changed enormously in the Indian army. From being an instituion of bravery and chivalry that boasted of producing the nation's gentlemen of the highest order, the Indian army has become just another "sarkari department."

My father died prematurely while on duty. He was a Major. I grew up availing different services from the army like visiting their hospitals or using their transit camps as I grew up. I still remember the professionalism in the army, sometime till the early 90's. In 1999 I met with a tragic accident and I was in the RR Hospital and Base Hospital in Delhi for almost 3 years (in and out). During this time I came across the Indian army from across the country. While most jawans that I encountered were highly professionals, there were others who were total assholes. The officers with the exception of one or two were even bigger assholes.

The point of my argument is that Indian army officers have started behaving just like any other governemnt officer. The disease has also started spreading to some jawans. This whole tradition of having "bhaiyyas" in officer's homes is about to end because there is only so much that a human being can take against his dignity.

I totally support the idea of an orderly for every officer, provided that there is a restricted list of responsibility that he needs to adhere to. All Jawan's must be exempted from bothering about an officer's domestic chores.

With all the scams going on in the Indian army, and the rotting of its traditions, I can smell doom for a once proud instituion.

PS: I mean no disrespect for Army officers. I know what it takes to become and Army officer. What my father and others achieved by slogging through government schools in their neghboring villages, is something I could not dream of achieving as a DPS grad. However, I wish that our officers put a fraction of the effort they put at becoming officers, to preserve the traditions of our military.
 
Hi Sumit
You have wriiten gold.I am fully agree with you.Earlier people were joining army because of valour,respect of officers in the society.Now most of them are joining as they are not getting jobs elsewhere.
Actions speaks louder than the words.
 
Aaah Friends
Relax, relax, the army is not doomed. Things aren’t going to dogs either.
Its very easy to have a viewpoint even with little information.
Let me give you a different perspective.
Even the Army Chief would have polished the shoes of his seniors and set their uniform.
When I joined NDA as a first termer, I had to not only polish shoes, but the floor too, cut grass in the lawns and don’t know what all. The civilian population thinks polishing shoes as a lowly job, that’s why most don’t wear polished shoes. Let me put things in point form.
1. No one is an orderly by force.
2. Don’t look down upon that job.
3. There are n number of cases where Indian army officers gave their life to save the life of their jawans and these cases are continuing.
4. In army the respect of rank is very important. Well defined hierarchy is very important. That’s why the subordinates follow orders in face of death too. We cannot afford to have a group discussion with the soldiers in the face of enemy and possible death. It would become like the parliament full of rowdy pliticians.
5. The hierarchy is there in jawans and their ranks also right upto subedar major.
6. A jawan has a choice to work hard and go upto subedar major or officer.
7. Yes, jawans/soldiers cut grass, do geru chuna, maintain the cantonment area. That’s how we see cantonment areas as so neat and clean compared o civilian areas and trust me civilian areas have million times more funds and can give you only a filthy city.
8. Yes, a soldier polishes everything from shoes to floors to equipment to guns and rifles to sweeping to washing toilets. But every officer does it too in his training days.
9. Yes, army people are no Gods, there are mistakes. I hear people saying bad about army based on 2-3 incidents, they don’t see a disciplined force of 13 lakh. One or two incidents and we call the whole army corrupt.
10. Today I am a civilian and I strongly believe that the civilian population should learn discipline from the army. And if they do, the civilian areas will be as clean, as green and as well organised as cantonment areas.
11. The ‘in a family’ atmosphere that exists in an army regiment can be a role model for our civilian colonies and societies.
12. One cannot even imagine how a soldier/officer in trouble is supported by his regiment.
13. The army by far is the most disciplined, well organised, least corrupt organisation in the country. Let us learn from them rather than pointing fingers at them.
Most officers do not get their personal menial jobs done by orderlies and those who do is wrong. But a little wrong shouldn’t overshadow the bigger right.
We have a lot to learn from the army.
Regards
 
Agree with u Navin Bhaai...
But Last two lines
"Most officers do not get their personal menial jobs done by orderlies and those who do is wrong. But a little wrong shouldn’t overshadow the bigger right."
I am not agree,What I am seeing most officer do these things,u mentioned polishing shoes is no problem,I agree...
But polishing shoes for officer's wife???...wat u say
I am not complaining for the working for officer,But I am saying treating a soldier like a house maid and that in his highly respected Uniform...
And this is as correct as anything,I am staying in a army apartment and I am seeing This Navin Bhaai...
Now Answer this Navin Bhaai,Is it correct????Is it morale boosting?
 
INDIANSoldier

I retired from the Army in1985, things may have changed, I notice lot of views being posted concerning the misuse of Jawans.

May be correct may be it is exaggerated. I would , however, like some one to indicate as to how many jawans,who had been employed as orderlies to officers and JCOs, have committed suicide . shot their colleagues or the seniors.

These acts possibly are happening due to the misuse of Army in security and IS duties, Kashmir and North East, resulting in unrelenting stress A jawan is trained to kill the enemy with out pitey or remorse, in short he is a killing machine, with a very short reaction time for him to act, it is a question of survival,he not trained to fight with his own people or terrorists with human right organization looking over his shoulders.

He is also a human being with relations, families, wives and children, and has to cope with the associated problems.

How many of us outside Army can even live in that situation even for a month. Bls
 
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Bhai Yatinder,
Your viewpoint is right. I have always believed that one should do one's own work.
I also have no hesitation in accepting that even my shoes were polished by an ordely during my school days as i was son of an army officer but that was wrong. I should have been made to polish my own shoes.
But my training disciplined me and I learnt what i didnot learn as an army officer's son.
Army officers families need t behave responsibly, no doubt.

But overall its not a big issue. Out of a force of 13 lakh, how many choose to be orderlies? No one is forced to be an orderly. An orderly isnot treated bad like a domestic help is. The relationship is a healthy one. He is often treated as family. A senior officer usually addresses his orderly as 'son'.
A change should be initiated from the highest ranks in which the families of army officers are taught to be more humble.

But bhai yatinder, what we have to guard against is
1. we should refrain from doubting the intentions of people serving in the army (that they are there because they didnot get any job). As even when we are talking, a large number of them are guarding our frontiers in some of the most inhospitable terrain, facing hardships, enemy bullets and possible death.
2. we cannot make a general statement that things are going bad with the army. Our army is one of the most disciplined armies in the world (See US army, abu ghraib or Pak army coups)
3. The topic of this thread should not be 'Ill treatment of jawans in the army'. jawans are not ill treated. Yes, the life is tough and can be tough but that is the job.

As for the cases of shooting. Because of counter insurgency and terrorism, all soldiers are having loaded weapons at all times which was not the case in earlier times. In such a scenario any heated argument or drunken fight can lead to shooting. When there are so many young soldiers there will be some odd case of hot blood fighting.
See Jatland, I bet if all Jatland members had weapons most of them would have shot each other. :)
Regards
Navin Gulia
If we want to know what motivation is, we should spend some time in training centres/regiments and see their activities, games and sports, excercises and camps. If we have as motivated a country, we wont need the army.
 
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navingulia said:
Bhai Yatinder,
Your viewpoint is right. I have always believed that one should do one's own work.
I also have no hesitation in accepting that even my shoes were polished by an ordely during my school days as i was son of an army officer but that was wrong. I should have been made to polish my own shoes.
But my training disciplined me and I learnt what i didnot learn as an army officer's son.
Army officers families need t behave responsibly, no doubt.

But overall its not a big issue. Out of a force of 13 lakh, how many choose to be orderlies? No one is forced to be an orderly. An orderly isnot treated bad like a domestic help is. The relationship is a healthy one. He is often treated as family. A senior officer usually addresses his orderly as 'son'.
A change should be initiated from the highest ranks in which the families of army officers are taught to be more humble.

But bhai yatinder, what we have to guard against is
1. we should refrain from doubting the intentions of people serving in the army (that they are there because they didnot get any job). As even when we are talking, a large number of them are guarding our frontiers in some of the most inhospitable terrain, facing hardships, enemy bullets and possible death.
2. we cannot make a general statement that things are going bad with the army. Our army is one of the most disciplined armies in the world (See US army, abu ghraib or Pak army coups)
3. The topic of this thread should not be 'Ill treatment of jawans in the army'. jawans are not ill treated. Yes, the life is tough and can be tough but that is the job.

As for the cases of shooting. Because of counter insurgency and terrorism, all soldiers are having loaded weapons at all times which was not the case in earlier times. In such a scenario any heated argument or drunken fight can lead to shooting. When there are so many young soldiers there will be some odd case of hot blood fighting.
See Jatland, I bet if all Jatland members had weapons most of them would have shot each other. :)
Regards
Navin Gulia
If we want to know what motivation is, we should spend some time in training centres/regiments and see their activities, games and sports, excercises and camps. If we have as motivated a country, we wont need the army.
Click to expand...
I am agree with you Navin Bhaai
 
Bhai Yati,
This problem needs to be addresed from the highest ranks. This problem cannot be answered at this forum.
Often the authority associated with a post gets converted to power whether it be army or any other organisation or politics. And this power often shows up on the families in form of proudiness. But it doesnt speak high of the nature of person they are.
A person who dispite reaching highest ranks maintains his humble nature is a person truely worthy of respect.
Eg. Lal bahadur Shastri, Vajpayee, Manmohan singh, dheerubhai ambani, General Vij (i found him very humble)...
I have met many high ranking officers who were so humble, once they were in common public no one would be able to guess that they are high ranking officers.
I would ask jatlanders, how many of us would not let our post effect our humble nature?
Today we see so many Jat boys showing off their proudiness on being Jats. The prideshould be internal, something which should make us do good things and be good human beings, something that will bring a good name to our community.
Regards
Navin Gulia
 
Bhai Jeete and Yati,
It could even be a disagreement. I would be as happy if you and others disagree with me. But it should be a healthy disagreement.
Reasoning, arguments, discussions and disagreements should be healthy.
You agree to my statements it is your badappan.
Ar yo Yati tai mannai kai bai manwaa liya per iska dil bada hai, yo kade ladya nahin meri gail.
We, as Jats, have a tendency to not accept disagreements. We tend to use harsh words and ego and other factors come into play damaging things beyond repair.
We have to accept the mistakes and shortcomings that are there in us and in the society and then see if we can do something to correct them.
Regards
Navin Gulia
 
.
Without commenting on the so-called “ill-treatment”, I would like to opine that humility or humbleness (well-said by Navin Gulia ji) is a trait which removes many evils. Army personnel today are leading a tense life and some sort of relief or entertainment to them is a must. I have seen them shouting at their juniors in a parade ground or at other places of duty, but in the evening get-together party, they shake hands, share jokes and drinks - and all malice withers away.

Change is the way of life and some changes in the functioning of army are perhaps needed, one of those being slowly moving away from the British legacy or unnecessary use of English language. Pakistan Army is extensively using Urdu in their day-to-day communications, talks or office functions. But an Indian Army commander feels proud in addressing his half-literate jawans in a mix of aristocrat and desi English - and at the end of his long, boring, blah-blah lecture, just says : “koyi shaq?” :)
.
 
Ill treatment to jawans

Hi Jatlanders!

I fully agree with Yatinder Bhai. System of keeping orderly by officers and JCOs can not be justified by the arguments posted by Mr navin and others. It is inhuman & illegal. Those who support it have experience of being officers. Mr Navin says he did shoes polishing during his training, why not afterwards bhai.Those who have not seen the system from close must go and see in nearby ARMY bases. And Bhai Navin, Army and for that matter all the three forces are not free from corruption, they are equally corrupt/bad as any other civil Govt Deptt. I can cite hundreds of examples (personally not on this site). Can any one answer the following questions?

1 There are differ.ent scales of ration for Jawans and officers, why? Kya officers ko jyada bhookh lagti hai?
2. What is the difference between hieghst and lowest of pay scales (Sepoy and Gen)? Let me tell u it is the widest in the world. Indian Jawans are the lowest paid.
3. What are the prospects for a jawan (promotions) vis-a-vis a commissioned officer? All most 50% of jawans retire in the first rank after 17 years of service with a monthly pension of Rs 1500/- PM. A commissioned officer becomes colonel after about 15 years of service and draws pension ten times that of a jawan (if opts to retire after 20 years).

The list is long, sufferings of jawns can not be narrated through these questions. And mind u I m not shooting in air these r the facts. Dont ask, How do I know?

Vinod Dhatrawal
 
vinod sir, you are talking with a grudge.
not a single of the statements is true.
ever since my trainig i have always polished my shoes myself.
1. army is as corrupt as civil? i cannot even answer that
2. widest income gap? the security gurad at GE capital is paued rs 2000 per month and the ceo has annual salary of 12.5 crores.
3. how many soldiers become officers? How many secutriy guards can you expect to become ceo's?

You give a feeling of strong grudge and vengeance. Any amount of azrguing/reasoning from me would not be enough to change your mind.

In our Jat families it is so common that one brother is officer and one is jawan. i have deepest regard for every soldier who defends his country and every one from a jawan to general is a soldier.

jawan's food and officers food? Well, all the allowances that are given are according to rank.
Nowyou will say "why a worker sits under a tree and eats tiffen but he management has fod in ac rooms.
why a farmer ploughs land in sun, why cannot he sit in ac and someone plough for him.
As, is said in Geeta, we all have a role to play, right from the foot soldier to the senapati.
We shouldnot look down upon anyone's role.

nearly every member in my family and ancestors have served in army, either as a soldier or as an officer. the salt runs in my blood. in my sincerity i dont talk and listen bad things about army.

if you come to me, i will show you my pension book, i get exactly Rs 1,500 as pension. Now even a jawan gets 5000+ but i have never complained and never will. trust me.

You have full right to hold your opinion just like i have a right to hold mine.
Regards and best wishes.
Navin Gulia
 
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