Reservation of JAT's in Haryana.

[jitendershooda]

Jitender i can understand your points , but believe this is not the solution.

2) is the only option and i dont there is a huge difference intra villages between castes!! Compare apples with apples! Comparing Punjabi with jat does not make sense on the discussion of reservation.
do u think the other castes in OBC have not been the same phase as jats.

I couldnt understood it that any other caste got included in BC i.e. Yadavs and now Gujjars with special category then there was no difference happened in the intra village castes. But if Jats will be included it will go much wider and atank mach jaega.

Khae aab badhegi jab logon ko naukriyan nahi milengi aur kheti rahi nahi ... chori chakari ... dakaiti ... cheena jhapti ... sab hoga ...

And nobody appreciates the slackness that can come in when we do get reservation. The kind of pride that we bear always and the kind of laziness and the slack approach , once having the rese rvation , would not it demotivate the upcoming talent further not to raise their level of hard work ?

My friend you have told me that you understood what i said yet this question. People with ranks 51-60 will not be less hardworking and they will not be lazy .... beleive me. Aaj ke time pe itni population hai aur itna competition hai ki limited seats mein kahin koe lazy nahi hoga .... Balki jo mehanati hein unka number aaega aur jo nikhattu hein us category mein wo rahe jaenge. Means in all ways the candidates selected in that case would be more hardworking those who are in present in those categories.

Such huge populations of crores of jats and a few getting through is gonna change everything for you ?
What it moght do is to may be raise the membership of Jatland by a few 1000 , but will it make sense ?

We all know of the interest people show in good works! Is nt many on the site capable of helping in all kinds to at least 1 deserving student!
how many do it ?
Mere lip service will not take us anywhere Bhai!

Kisne rokka hai bhai karo ye bhi ... aur ye karo aap without keeping cast in mind .... ye iss terah ki jagriti poore samaj mein aani chahiye naki sirf ek jati mein. JJ kar rahi hai ... abhi dev ji ne shuru ki hai ... aap bhi kar rahe ho ... nitin ... arya ji ... jagmohan uncle .... aur bhi kitne silently kar rahe hein .... keep this also doing ... This nowhere relates to getting more seats for our people to compete with which are now a days consumed by lazy candidates as no fight is there.

Lets understand the intricacies and lets not be raged for nothing. Lets get working and focus on things that are going to serve as long term. Lets set up an set up , a working mechanism , an integral and an holistic approach to life in general and then to people!

Is not there enough from the govt to some , does it ever go to the needy?
In such a big system that is never possible. Its we people who have to do the actual hard work , fairy tale solutions are not possible.

Anil, I replied so much only because I weight your views and I was positive that I will be able to clear something to you with my views .... else I would have stopped this LIP SERVICE long back as usual in other cases .... but now I also realized that we are on different banks. So better to leave this here.

You have talked of something to do for welfare of needy ... so carry on ... many people are also doing .... you have good thoughts .... keep doing ... reservation mile na mile that is altogether different thing .... as this noble service of your will be for all not for specific caste only .... we shouldnot spread hatred in society .... keep putting influencial thoughts may some others also get motivated.

Good Luck ... keep it up. But this is much for this topic among us ... dharampal ji also have rightly indicated.

 

[anilsinghd]

mera desh mahaan...m proud 2 b an indian !!!
...
even more prouder abt our so called educated jat intelligentsia.
...
lets start livin' holistically, think abt our climate, support against environmental degradation, start worrying abt greenhouse, depleting water levels etc etc etc...i've booked 1st available flight to washington...अभी बुश और ओबामा के कान मरोड़ के आता हूँ
...
all JATlanders stop talking abt reservation/quotas...lets unite nd stage a dharna at white house...protest agnst USA policies tht r causing greenhouse effect nd environmental degradation, the biggest culprit...afterall we hv to think in long term to start living holistically...lets do it NOW, b 4 its too late...i know jats can do it, cos एक जाट-जाट, दो जाट-मौज, तीन जाट-कंपनी, चार जाट-फौज...i'll sponser tickets to washington for all interested...ticket also includes 1 day sight seeing tour of washington DC nd $ 100.00 worth of casino coupons. :tamatar

Thanks for your kind words , I thought it was an discussion going on , I didn't realise sarcasm , jokes , and stupid imaginations also were a part of it!

Please proceed with whatever ways you deem fit to get JATS to the level where you imagine , I dearly hope 5 years hence someone can prove me factually how much the reservation had helped.


I had tried to be as factual , logical about my words, and I dont need to prove to anybody how i implement my thoughts.


Regards,
Anil

 

[anilsinghd]

I couldnt understood it that any other caste got included in BC i.e. Yadavs and now Gujjars with special category then there was no difference happened in the intra village castes. But if Jats will be included it will go much wider and atank mach jaega.

Khae aab badhegi jab logon ko naukriyan nahi milengi aur kheti rahi nahi ... chori chakari ... dakaiti ... cheena jhapti ... sab hoga ...



My friend you have told me that you understood what i said yet this question. People with ranks 51-60 will not be less hardworking and they will not be lazy .... beleive me. Aaj ke time pe itni population hai aur itna competition hai ki limited seats mein kahin koe lazy nahi hoga .... Balki jo mehanati hein unka number aaega aur jo nikhattu hein us category mein wo rahe jaenge. Means in all ways the candidates selected in that case would be more hardworking those who are in present in those categories.



Kisne rokka hai bhai karo ye bhi ... aur ye karo aap without keeping cast in mind .... ye iss terah ki jagriti poore samaj mein aani chahiye naki sirf ek jati mein. JJ kar rahi hai ... abhi dev ji ne shuru ki hai ... aap bhi kar rahe ho ... nitin ... arya ji ... jagmohan uncle .... aur bhi kitne silently kar rahe hein .... keep this also doing ... This nowhere relates to getting more seats for our people to compete with which are now a days consumed by lazy candidates as no fight is there.



Anil, I replied so much only because I weight your views and I was positive that I will be able to clear something to you with my views .... else I would have stopped this LIP SERVICE long back as usual in other cases .... but now I also realized that we are on different banks. So better to leave this here.

You have talked of something to do for welfare of needy ... so carry on ... many people are also doing .... you have good thoughts .... keep doing ... reservation mile na mile that is altogether different thing .... as this noble service of your will be for all not for specific caste only .... we shouldnot spread hatred in society .... keep putting influencial thoughts may some others also get motivated.

Good Luck ... keep it up. But this is much for this topic among us ... dharampal ji also have rightly indicated.

Sorry Jitender Bhai for not replying to your post any more.

May be we can discuss it personally some time else.

I really respect your views and individualistic differences are anything but logical and natural.
Thanks for putting up a healthy debate.

Regards,
Anil

 

[devdahiya]

There you go Dev Ji. I knew that you know about the society more than me and you are very right that in this ander nagri .... there is no point of opposing some benefit that is going to happen to our secular community who dont know to get the work done with bent finger like punjabis and others who can earn money making fool of others.

I remember one punjabi used to come to our village in 80s and he was selling clothes. He used to keep his gathri and anaj and everything in one of our houses. He used to cut throats by selling that cloth of high rates and our people/ladies used to give him plenty of anaj. He then started taking bheins from people around village .... he used to sell that on high rates and give money many months later .... this way he became rich. Our people that time were true at heart and now also many are like this only. Ab kuch ye kahenge ki ye to koe jaruri nahi .... aap to generalise kar rahe ho .... haan mein manta hun ki samae ke sath bahut se jat bhi tej/cunning ho gae hein lekin phir bhi bahut theek hein.

Aur jab sari duniya ughadi hoe hande se ... to humne bhi itna NAAK KA BAAL NA BANANA CHAHIYE ....

Dev ji, I know you where you are talking .... ye reservation koe jadu ki pudia nahi hai ... lekin aap jaise logon ke sath aur margdarshan ki bhi jarurat rahegi inko. Lekin ye bhi nahi hai ki isse jaruratmand jaton ko faeda nahi hoga. Iss andher nagri mein humein apni iss secular community ke uthan ke liye dono cheejon ki jarurat hai ...

1) Reservation
2) Enlightment by the learned people like you and Navin who are trying to give back to the community by their educated moves. Making them aware of what is right and what is wrong. Helping them to come our of darkness of illusion, hatred among themselves, jua-sharab, dahej aur bahut sari kuritiyon se jo inko jakadti ja rahi hein.

JITU thanks a ton for the kind words spoken.I am grateful to you and God almighty.I am a dust particle of the brave KAUM....but agar jindaggi rahi tou jarrur kuchh kar gujjrungga kaum ke liye.Abhi thodi jimedarriyan baaki hein so going a litle slow.You are a GEM ...please keep thinking and doing good to the environment....stay blessed always.People like you are rare in the community.

 

[brahmtewatia]

Happy to see a feirce battle going on and i mean it , it is really nice constructive argument session and i request all parties to take things in spirit.

Anilbhai it seems tht u hv lost yr spirits, may b u’ve taken the discussion to seriously nd personally, well for me its still a discussion. I appreciate yr strong grounds nd fundamentals tht in yr. own opinion r right, mind u they r right only in yr. opinion.:tamatar
At the same time I also hv my grounds nd fundamentals nd in my opinion I’m right …so where is the controversy? nd y r u losing yr. spirit !!!

Now talking abt jokes, sarcasm nd stupid imaginations, then pls b apprised tht these r all part of a debate, if u don’t like them thts yr outlook nd a different matter altogether. As u wud appreciate allegations nd counter allegations hv always bn an integral part of any argument/discussion nd so is the element of sarcasm…adding a sense of humor is a personal prerogative, I hv it so I did…u don’t, so u stayed away…so wats the big fuss ???

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btw nd at the same time...pls understand the usages of sarcasm...as per wikipedia:

Usage of sarcasm

Sarcasm is most often used in a humorous manner, but can also express annoyance or anger. It is often used as proxy to other forms of expression. For example, instead of becoming angry and yelling at someone in a conflict, a person might choose to use sarcasm as an alternative. Sarcasm may be used in many different circumstances, from ordinary conversation to the debate floor. Sarcasm is most often used to tear down others' arguments to humorous effect.

Highlighting sarcasm in written form

Sarcasm can be difficult to grasp in written form. To prevent this some people emphasise (often overly) the sarcastic comment. (e.g. that’s just craptastic!); sarcastic comments on the Internet with an emoticon, such as ^o); or surround them with a made-up language tag, e.g. *sarcasm*,[sarcasm][/sarcasm], <sarcasm> or <snicker>.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I had tried to be as factual , logical about my words... here we r not talking abt AND, NAND, OR, NOR gates (these r logic gates in electronics/computer scs.) if u r logical nd factual in yr. might, so m i...its the way u luk at it.

Cuming back to stupid imaginations, well I wud say tht vivid imagination wud hv bn a better word to address…anyway when u talk of these stupid/vivid imaginations then I wud like to draw yr attention to yr. following imaginations + sarcasm (stupid in yr words, vivid in my words)

good going ! since we are considered strong people , lets then form some gangs and make bank robberies or rob rich people and get back to only jats !
There aint any difference between the savages of past centuries and us then !

That is the actual strata of "our caste" that will be benefitted.

Meanwhile no body stops us to actually try and help that strata ourselves.
Lets look at the totality , let us look at the whole!
Integrated development , Holistic development are the things we should look at…

 

[anilsinghd]

Anilbhai it seems tht u hv lost yr spirits, may b u’ve taken the discussion to seriously nd personally, well for me its still a discussion. I appreciate yr strong grounds nd fundamentals tht in yr. own opinion r right, mind u they r right only in yr. opinion.:tamatar
At the same time I also hv my grounds nd fundamentals nd in my opinion I’m right …so where is the controversy? nd y r u losing yr. spirit !!!

Now talking abt jokes, sarcasm nd stupid imaginations, then pls b apprised tht these r all part of a debate, if u don’t like them thts yr outlook nd a different matter altogether. As u wud appreciate allegations nd counter allegations hv always bn an integral part of any argument/discussion nd so is the element of sarcasm…adding a sense of humor is a personal prerogative, I hv it so I did…u don’t, so u stayed away…so wats the big fuss ???

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
btw nd at the same time...pls understand the usages of sarcasm...as per wikipedia:

Usage of sarcasm

Sarcasm is most often used in a humorous manner, but can also express annoyance or anger. It is often used as proxy to other forms of expression. For example, instead of becoming angry and yelling at someone in a conflict, a person might choose to use sarcasm as an alternative. Sarcasm may be used in many different circumstances, from ordinary conversation to the debate floor. Sarcasm is most often used to tear down others' arguments to humorous effect.

Highlighting sarcasm in written form

Sarcasm can be difficult to grasp in written form. To prevent this some people emphasise (often overly) the sarcastic comment. (e.g. that’s just craptastic!); sarcastic comments on the Internet with an emoticon, such as ^o); or surround them with a made-up language tag, e.g. *sarcasm*,[sarcasm][/sarcasm], <sarcasm> or <snicker>.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Cuming back to stupid imaginations, well I wud say tht vivid imagination wud hv bn a better word to address…anyway when u talk of these stupid/vivid imaginations then I wud like to draw yr attention to yr. following imaginations + sarcasm (stupid in yr words, vivid in my words)

Well Brahm , I never loose my composure , you are very true that each individual has its own way of going about things.

Heated arguments , a little sarcasm are not something bad in an discussion but only if they substantiate any point of yours.
You yourself put in one of your posts , that i ducked one of your posts , I would rather say that nobody of you replied to my post # 20. I expected a reply from the owner of the thread Sumit and all of you before replying to all my posts should have considered it.

I highly respects people's opinion and one of my very strong fundamentals is that the best judge of one self is "he" himself and the only person one should be accountable to in life is self.

Call it big words , call it the naivety of the so called modern educated jat intelligentia , I do have compassion , and that compassion is not at all limited to my own caste , that is for society and humanity at large.

Ofcourse i dont have resources to uplift the whole humanity at once , or to help all the needy. but for sure i dont distinguish between the caste of "needy's".

And well do try to reply to my query in post no 20 , and if you do say that yes you would distinguish between the needy's and will ask the caste before extending the helping hand , there is nothing to discuss.



Regarding your points of loosing spirits , well nowhere i went ahead to degrade your opinions , it is of importance that we respect each other's opinion as well , else we will loose focus on the points put forward.
Coming out with extrapolations of no substantiation of your own points is not appreciated , again a humble suggestion.

Kabir said :
" ati hath mat kar baavre ; hath se baat na hoye
jyun jyun bheeje kaamri , tyun tyun bhaari hoye "

That is one of the motivations for putting a full stop at the discussion for me , I appreicate and regard all of the views of the members , Thanks for putting up. We must go about our own ways , hopefully we all add quality in the end, we may converge!

 

[skadian123]

Reservation not the only solution BUT CERTAINLY ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS

A lot of passionate debate and discussion has taken place on the issue of reservation for Jats.

Would just like to reiterate what I previously stated, there can be no right or wrong answers to a debate, a debate especially of this nature.

As can be clearly seen from our shared history, we as a community are not cohesive in both, our thoughts and actions and that without doubt has been the reason sufficient enough to explain why we have not been able to make a mark on the national scene, leave aside the international scene.

As has been said by some wise man long time back: Too many cooks spoil the broth. Unfortunately, this has exactly been the case with our community. We have cooks specialising in various cuisines with each thinking his recipe to be the best.

I would simply like to put across a few points which are as follows without taking a shot on anyone's viewpoints individually:

First, even if reservation is granted to our community, it would very much be within our individual discretion whether to mark ourselves as reserved or general category. Nobody can force a reserved category candidate to not mark himself as general if he doesnot wish to include himself in the reserved category while applying for education or job opportunities.

Second, even if we, including the anti-reservation Jatlanders would want to avail of the benefits of reservation, we would be ineligible for the same as I am sure most of us on this site would fall under the category of creamy layer.

Third, lets not throw the spanner in the wheel. Even if we as a community get reservation, we as individuals have the choice whether to avail of its benefits or not. However lets look beyond and realise at the same time that there is a vast majority of our population living in the small towns and villages who actually deserve reservation. The least we can do to help them in their cause is to not come in their way. As said earlier, ultimately the individual choice is our own which nobody can change or alter.

Reservation is not the only solution to progress, but considering today's scenario in the country, it is CERTAINLY AND WITHOUT ANY DOUBT ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS.

 

[brahmtewatia]

Well Brahm , I never loose my composure , you are very true that each individual has its own way of going about things.

Heated arguments , a little sarcasm are not something bad in an discussion but only if they substantiate any point of yours.
You yourself put in one of your posts , that i ducked one of your posts , I would rather say that nobody of you replied to my post # 20. I expected a reply from the owner of the thread Sumit and all of you before replying to all my posts should have considered it.

I highly respects people's opinion and one of my very strong fundamentals is that the best judge of one self is "he" himself and the only person one should be accountable to in life is self.

Call it big words , call it the naivety of the so called modern educated jat intelligentia , I do have compassion , and that compassion is not at all limited to my own caste , that is for society and humanity at large.

Ofcourse i dont have resources to uplift the whole humanity at once , or to help all the needy. but for sure i dont distinguish between the caste of "needy's".

And well do try to reply to my query in post no 20 , and if you do say that yes you would distinguish between the needy's and will ask the caste before extending the helping hand , there is nothing to discuss.

well said anil in yr abv post, especially the thoughts underlined...i've always appreciated yr stand nd views in quite a few threads, even admiring yr. intellect nd talent, u r well aware of tht. now cuming to substantiation of views is considered then i wud say tht m not a mathematician like u...m a person of electronis nd better understand the boolean logic, where elements (or "bits") each contain only two possible values, called various names, such as "true" and "false", "yes" and "no", "on" and "off", or "1" and "0". the machine on wch u r working...PC...also understands only "1" or "0", i.e. "yes" or "no"
...
cuming to post 20 of yrs, i dont know wch one is tht now, since the threads hv bn merged.

First, even if reservation is granted to our community, it would very much be within our individual discretion whether to mark ourselves as reserved or general category. Nobody can force a reserved category candidate to not mark himself as general if he doesnot wish to include himself in the reserved category while applying for education or job opportunities.

Second, even if we, including the anti-reservation Jatlanders would want to avail of the benefits of reservation, we would be ineligible for the same as I am sure most of us on this site would fall under the category of creamy layer.

Third, lets not throw the spanner in the wheel. Even if we as a community get reservation, we as individuals have the choice whether to avail of its benefits or not. However lets look beyond and realise at the same time that there is a vast majority of our population living in the small towns and villages who actually deserve reservation. The least we can do to help them in their cause is to not come in their way. As said earlier, ultimately the individual choice is our own which nobody can change or alter.

Reservation is not the only solution to progress, but considering today's scenario in the country, it is CERTAINLY AND WITHOUT ANY DOUBT ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS.

@ sunil : a nice attempt towards the summarization of thoughts. @ anil, pls take this as an answer to yr post ??? dont know wch one is tht now.

 

[anilsinghd]

well said anil in yr abv post, especially the thoughts underlined...i've always appreciated yr stand nd views in quite a few threads, even admiring yr. intellect nd talent, u r well aware of tht. now cuming to substantiation of views is considered then i wud say tht m not a mathematician like u...m a person of electronis nd better understand the boolean logic, where elements (or "bits") each contain only two possible values, called various names, such as "true" and "false", "yes" and "no", "on" and "off", or "1" and "0". the machine on wch u r working...PC...also understands only "1" or "0", i.e. "yes" or "no"
...
cuming to post 20 of yrs, i dont know wch one is tht now, since the threads hv bn merged.



@ sunil : a nice attempt towards the summarization of thoughts. @ anil, pls take this as an answer to yr post ??? dont know wch one is tht now.

Although i dint get how come mathematics and electronics differ when it comes to substantiation , but the post I was referring to is post # 130 on the thread.

It might be very much possible that i am having great difficulties ( I attribute that to my naiveness) in comprehending what people are saying.

Referring to Sunil' post , I am no expert is summarization , but with my lil common sense I guess the crux he is saying is that reservation should be there but for the needy. I would be highly surprised if anyone can derive out of that post that we need any caste based reservation.

Ofcourse the non-needy can always exclude themselves but we know that does happen very seldomly.

I would rather say , YES we do need reservation , but not on the basis of caste but on the basis of need , and that does not segregate jats , gujjars , sc's , st's !

Again some might categorise this as total nonsense , but if we are talking about resource allocation , I would rather go on the economic criterions rather than the caste.
And I keep things very simple , whatever I am talking on this issue right from my post 1 is that "ME" will always prefer an needy other caste over an non-needy of my caste and that is no discrimination.

And that is why in priniciple any talk which goes like : RESERVATION FOR CASTE X , where X can take all possible caste values is crap for me.
( And the basis for this to be true other than it sounds very logical is the underlying data (the whole indian population) is huge , so to be exact on mathematics , most probably , the distribution for all castes ( economically) would be similar , hence any preference to one would automatically mean an discrimination to the others.

Please try and answer my post no # 130 for yourself on what should be your basis to extend your help.

Regards,
Anil

 

[pscil]

When 2 beards catch fire, yours and your neighbours, first you put out the fire in your own beard, before attempting to put out the fire in your neighbours beard. We live in communities and like it or not ours is the Jat community. We have to uplift ourselves first, because charity beings at home as the bible say. Our youths need reservations and there should be no politics about this issue. People only come up when they organise and begin concentrated action, with clear cut objectives. For centuries we have been the victims of the banias Braham combine. Reservations are there for minorities even in advanced countries like USA and that is the reason why so many blacks and Indian have come up in the system and made it egalitarian.

My own daughter tried for many years to get through medical, but could not due to the limited seats; she always just missed the bus. Today she is topping her MBA course in USA and has a GPA of 3.9, when to get into Harvard you need only 3.7. The Indian systemis biased and diseased and discriminatory and we should united mobilise our energy to reach our goals. There is no time to loose, time is the essence, what we can achieve today may not be possible tomorrow. Clear the cobwebs of our thoughts, time is for action and support from all. Within our house we can always sort out our difference in house as they say

 

[samarkadian]

Hello Jitu Once again,
I really love and appreciate your zeal for putting pro-reservation argument on this healthy but fierce debate.I know this circular argument will go nowhere else but in to the archives of the site.I really wish that you get success in your endeavours for it but bureaucrates, commission set up for declaring a caste in OBC is not going to work on wishy washy ways. I hope you understand what I mean to convey.My symphathies.Guys! when we talk of OBC, it is crystal clear that its other backward CLASS not CASTE as mostly we are assuming here in haste.Now, coming to some rational points:

1. To prove Jats as in Other Backward Classes, how would you present your case of the Agriculatrist warriors; that they are in severe pathetic scaenario when it comes to being backword.I mean to submit data here.Is there any reliable source which proves economicaly/socialy backwardness except assumptions and hypothesis you or other Jatsabhas or appealing bodys going to make?
Though first requirment is central government/state government set up a commission which again depends upon how firecly this idea can be make in to a consistent agitation to pressurise central/state government which solely works on self set political amibitions.Adding to it govt have just seen the Gujjars agitation, they should be/must be pro-active towards it from Jats of Haryana.

2.Jats, as already established, an ethenic race has a different psychie despite of one's status, education, wealth which works on its ways which we all are aware of.Do you really see any possibility of people uniting under one movement ( reservation for haryana jats).How you guys are going to motivate the real crowd to come on roads.? They have enjoyed and enjoying a respectable status socially since ages ; do you think word reservation n seeing themselves with another OBCs which has always respected them as social leaders in a villages/city will accept it just for the sake of adimission in some govt/govt approved institutions? Its okay as you say there are limited seats in Medical colleges( surely you can omit Engineering scenario now as Haryana has emerged as S/w engineer producing hubs from its institutes).
What do you say abt lakhs of simple BA and other graduates? All Jats crowd from villages do not fight entrance exams for PMT only.If it is only for PMT n higher studies then simple BA/equivalent graduates will not feel discriminated among Jats as well? What abt the employement generation for these poor graduates? I think it will be more wise to train them in english language atleast so that they can earn their livlihood in flourising call centre culture.

3. Would the nature of agitation( its hard to call a movement) be the educational reservation or Govt Jobs too ? This is really a big question.
How it would be saved from being a mere politcal gemmick?

4. Another which has been over looked in this discussion is the prosperity status of the state since last couple of years nationally on the basis Per Capita Income . You can find the data as Haryana being in top 5 performing states. It is very obvious that solely jats didnt bring this status but they have major account in to it.
Would it not be contradictory for the backward commission to look at these reports? I mean economical status as the issue for pro-reservation agitation.

5. Like you said, its about being opprtunistic in the current 'bahati ganga' for Jats in Haryana,.From Bahadurgarh to Loharu, Rewari to Ambala, How this diversity will be united.? I mean to have some sound action plans by seed inducer ex-service men/retired judges and many same minded folks who are currently in exalted state of illusion. Like last time in 1999 they failed to fill up the common questionarrie given by NCBC.( That link [http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/f...0510109100.htm] still is waiting for you to be cliked in my previous post and kindly go through it).Will they make it sure to be enough wise not to repeat it again( provided govt set it up again)or would wait for any xyz caste to start agitation to mess up the country and citizens and a great shame to nation.

6. Ch Charan Singh proposed this Mandal Commission for reservation of backwardness of the caste.But he was wise to propose it on economic basis.
Is there any such political/intellectual leadership available which is acceptable to all Jats in Haryana?

I tried to be less aggressive this time.I hope and wish you would try to answer above raised questions positively and sidewise will give a reflection over it seriously..I would love to be defeated in this mental-mastrubation debate ( Forgive me Mods for the use of this particular word) and I'm open to be criticised personally anytime, anywhere and by anyone. I'm up for long term cure for the race not for allopathic symptomatic treatment which eventually cause unwanted side effects.( which you have mentioned in your reply to Anil as Aatank, chorri, cheena jhapti). For this my point of view is totally against towards reservation to the Jats of Haryana as first step.I found reservation as a whinny mean/tool for the weak and insecure castes.Do you consider Jats in Haryana as one?

One poster in another thread( Rajiv ji) raised up the issue of Enterpreneurship here, I would really appreciate if anyone would go through the following threads once and step forward to repeat it.Its quite ironical that I had requested mods to re open these old threads but no one has noticed them seriously yet. I'm being shameless now and pasting those links again.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5457


http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6167

PS: This post is a try to reflect 'HOW' And 'What' of Pro-reservation argument rather than any alternative solution.Some of the answers for future lies in above pasted link of old threads.

Thanks.

 

[sumitdalal]

Hello Jitu Once again,
I really love and appreciate your zeal for putting pro-reservation argument on this healthy but fierce debate.I know this circular argument will go nowhere else but in to the archives of the site.I really wish that you get success in your endeavours for it but bureaucrates, commission set up for declaring a caste in OBC is not going to work on wishy washy ways. I hope you understand what I mean to convey.My symphathies.Guys! when we talk of OBC, it is crystal clear that its other backward CLASS not CASTE as mostly we are assuming here in haste.Now, coming to some rational points:

1. To prove Jats as in Other Backward Classes, how would you present your case of the Agriculatrist warriors; that they are in severe pathetic scaenario when it comes to being backword.I mean to submit data here.Is there any reliable source which proves economicaly/socialy backwardness except assumptions and hypothesis you or other Jatsabhas or appealing bodys going to make?
Though first requirment is central government/state government set up a commission which again depends upon how firecly this idea can be make in to a consistent agitation to pressurise central/state government which solely works on self set political amibitions.Adding to it govt have just seen the Gujjars agitation, they should be/must be pro-active towards it from Jats of Haryana.

2.Jats, as already established, an ethenic race has a different psychie despite of one's status, education, wealth which works on its ways which we all are aware of.Do you really see any possibility of people uniting under one movement ( reservation for haryana jats).How you guys are going to motivate the real crowd to come on roads.? They have enjoyed and enjoying a respectable status socially since ages ; do you think word reservation n seeing themselves with another OBCs which has always respected them as social leaders in a villages/city will accept it just for the sake of adimission in some govt/govt approved institutions? Its okay as you say there are limited seats in Medical colleges( surely you can omit Engineering scenario now as Haryana has emerged as S/w engineer producing hubs from its institutes).
What do you say abt lakhs of simple BA and other graduates? All Jats crowd from villages do not fight entrance exams for PMT only.If it is only for PMT n higher studies then simple BA/equivalent graduates will not feel discriminated among Jats as well? What abt the employement generation for these poor graduates? I think it will be more wise to train them in english language atleast so that they can earn their livlihood in flourising call centre culture.

3. Would the nature of agitation( its hard to call a movement) be the educational reservation or Govt Jobs too ? This is really a big question.
How it would be saved from being a mere politcal gemmick?

4. Another which has been over looked in this discussion is the prosperity status of the state since last couple of years nationally on the basis Per Capita Income . You can find the data as Haryana being in top 5 performing states. It is very obvious that solely jats didnt bring this status but they have major account in to it.
Would it not be contradictory for the backward commission to look at these reports? I mean economical status as the issue for pro-reservation agitation.

5. Like you said, its about being opprtunistic in the current 'bahati ganga' for Jats in Haryana,.From Bahadurgarh to Loharu, Rewari to Ambala, How this diversity will be united.? I mean to have some sound action plans by seed inducer ex-service men/retired judges and many same minded folks who are currently in exalted state of illusion. Like last time in 1999 they failed to fill up the common questionarrie given by NCBC.( That link [http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/f...0510109100.htm] still is waiting for you to be cliked in my previous post and kindly go through it).Will they make it sure to be enough wise not to repeat it again( provided govt set it up again)or would wait for any xyz caste to start agitation to mess up the country and citizens and a great shame to nation.

6. Ch Charan Singh proposed this Mandal Commission for reservation of backwardness of the caste.But he was wise to propose it on economic basis.
Is there any such political/intellectual leadership available which is acceptable to all Jats in Haryana?

I tried to be less aggressive this time.I guess you would try to answer above raised question and sidewise will give a reflection over it seriously..I would love to be defeated in this mental-mastrubation debate ( Forgive me Mods for the use of this particular word) and I'm open to be criticised personally anytime, anywhere and by anyone. I'm up for long term cure for the race not for allopathic symptomatic treatment which eventually cause unwanted side effects.( which you have mentioned in your reply to Anil as Aatank, chorri, cheena jhapti). For this my point of view is totally against any kind of reservation to the Jats of Haryana as first step.I found reservation as a whinny mean/tool for weak and insecure castes.Do you consider Jats in Haryana as one?

One poster in another thread( Rajiv ji) raised up the issue of Enterpreneurship here, I would really appreciate if anyone would go through the following threads once and step forward to repeat it.Its quite ironical that I had requested mods to re open these old threads but no one has noticed them seriously yet. I'm being shameless now and pasting those links again.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5457


http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6167



Thanks.

Hello Samar,

U have raised some genuine concerns.I appreciate ur thoughts and ur efforts in bringing ur thoughts with strong textual force. The topic itself is a controversial one with new stats and logics coming up everyday.I am not in support of reservation,but i have seen some live examples of poor jats from villages suffering because of this.I didnt have any answer for them wen i saw them in failures even after giving efforts much more than their standards.Conditions of schools and lack of awareness about education and employement in villages leave me with no other option other than supporting 'reservation'.



I will b the first to oppose reservation and fight against it.But bhai give me some sound suggestion for the upliftment of the people in villages.I will give more than wat i have.
Lets be ready with some action not merely words.Words neither give relief to that empty stomach, nor provide hope to keep trying.What matters is 'opportunities'.

Lets stop playing the blame game.Things need to change now.And i request people who believe that reservation is not the solution(even i m one of them) please come up with some genuine substitues(because i fail to find one) for creating opportunities who have nothing to live for.

 

[skadian123]

Reservation - A reality which to stay in India for a long long time

Reservation on the basis of caste, creed, colour, race is a wrong practice in principle. However, whether we like it or not, the principles have all but disappeared from the Indian social fabric in general. Everyone is running after materialism, instant gratifications etc etc little realising and remembering the Indian values, ideals and principles they or their forefathers were brought up on and which were safely passed on from one generation to the next.

We talk of affirmative action on part of the community which ideally would get its act together by coming together and uplifting the needy without government support or intervention. This is an ideal situation though not impossible but the attainment of which is very time consuming. Since independence or lets say since the creation of Haryana, how many NGOs have been set up, leave alone done something substantial to uplift the local populations in towns and villages in particular the Jats. Time is fast running out for the community. I am sure, nobody will stop anyone from taking affirmative action in terms of personal or communtiy wise efforts in uplifting their fellow brethren, but in the meantime let us not inhibit the process of upliftment even before it starts on a wider scale and that too undertaken by the govt. in terms of granting reservations to the needy Jats.

There are numerous instances of communities which were not so low in the social strata, yet getting reservation and Mind you all they are still one of the most proud and influential communities of today. A case in point is that of the Yadavs, they hold a powerful sway in the entire Northern India belt and the day is not far when they would send one of their own to lead the country as PM... They have not made much noise on reservation, relatively taking reservation without much fuss. What have they lost by taking reservation if at all they have lost anything???? History will not be kind to us if we dont start living in our present than in our past. We dont become Dheds by taking reservation, rather we are in danger of becoming dhedhs if things continue to take shape as they are right now with teeming masses of unemployed youth waiting to gain employment without any luck. LUCK because affirmative action by enlightened youth and community will take relatively long time to come to fruition and reservation - UNFORTUNATELY THAT WE WONT LET HAPPEN..

 

[brahmtewatia]

reservation for the needy one's...tht was my contention of argument...always !!! i n'vr advocated reservation on caste basis.

when u talk of needy one's u'll find them a lot among the list of 3000 OBC's mentioned in india. here we r talking abt the needy jats...nd thts my ground for supporting the reservation. if folks call tht discrimination to other needy one's then i wud say YES...i m discriminating...but remember m trying to 1st put my house in order.

it is for sure the naiveness of ppl to talk abt big things like holistic living, preventing environmental degradation or watever. lets put our house in order rather then generalizing the subject nd apprehending other future problems.
...
nd thts my answer to post no. 130

When 2 beards catch fire, yours and your neighbours, first you put out the fire in your own beard, before attempting to put out the fire in your neighbours beard.

 

[anilsinghd]

Please all assure yourself which argument you are actually following:


Giving arguments of making yourself and your home better and at the same projecting a secular face will not help , It only contradicts your self.


And please aware of the simple fact that when economic basis will be adopted for the reservation the needy ( and that includes Jats as well ) will automatically be included.

And also remind yourself that the argument of non-ideal execution when it come to application of economic basis , also extends equally to the execution when it is applied on the caste basis.


Maintaining the secular and non-discriminating face when reservation of any kind is adopted is much easier when u apply it with the economic basis criterion.

And ( if at all ) if the Jats are the ones who are at the disadvantage then they will be the maximum benefeciaries.

I just love keeping things simple. Be it naive arguments.

 

[jitendershooda]

Hello Jitu Once again,
I really love and appreciate your zeal for putting pro-reservation argument on this healthy but fierce debate.I know this circular argument will go nowhere else but in to the archives of the site.I really wish that you get success in your endeavours for it but bureaucrates, commission set up for declaring a caste in OBC is not going to work on wishy washy ways. I hope you understand what I mean to convey.My symphathies.Guys! when we talk of OBC, it is crystal clear that its other backward CLASS not CASTE as mostly we are assuming here in haste.Now, coming to some rational points:

1. To prove Jats as in Other Backward Classes, how would you present your case of the Agriculatrist warriors; that they are in severe pathetic scaenario when it comes to being backword.I mean to submit data here.Is there any reliable source which proves economicaly/socialy backwardness except assumptions and hypothesis you or other Jatsabhas or appealing bodys going to make?
Though first requirment is central government/state government set up a commission which again depends upon how firecly this idea can be make in to a consistent agitation to pressurise central/state government which solely works on self set political amibitions.Adding to it govt have just seen the Gujjars agitation, they should be/must be pro-active towards it from Jats of Haryana.

Bhai Samar Ram Ram,

This point of yours should be kept in mind by the jat sabhas and if a chief megistrate and other learned people like Narender Kharab ji are part of it then they must have thought it before hand. Though you might have read that they will fight for it within constituitional means .... still if some agitation is required I dont think it would be wrong.

“If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who favor freedom without agitation want crops without plowing ... they want rain without thunder and lightning.” -- Frederick Douglass.

But if think that its hard to prove this ....then I would say that in present scenerio there is no issue for this. What raj govt did ... what tamilnadu govt did ... all is beyond this area of your so called commissions ... and also against SC .... so let us see what SC will do to these cases ..... surely someone will file for rajasthan reservation .... kya kahete ho ....

If Yadavs have proved this to get a step more depth class ... ie BC ... despite of these ethnicity ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadava
http://www.yadavnetwork.com/?p=15

beleive me there is no need to prove anything beyond any commission ... these commissions are all false .... as present scenerio is no better ... so I never respect any commission who divides the society itself. Sab shakti ekta mein hai ....

rajasthan mein 50 % to tha hi .... 4 % aur .... aur 14 % aur .... bacha kitna ..... 65% ... to kya wo baccha jo padha likha diya aapne ... angreji sikha di aapke movement ne .... 35% seeton pe kuch dhan dhan kar lega ...... chalo koe nahi aapne ek bahut aacha rasta aur dikhaya hai .... CAll centre .... please read this below ... for lighter note ...

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=186648&in_page_id=34

means .... ek 70% wala banda to maje se doctor/teacher/officer banega wahan aur ek 80% wala call center mein naukri karega ....

2.Jats, as already established, an ethenic race has a different psychie despite of one's status, education, wealth which works on its ways which we all are aware of.Do you really see any possibility of people uniting under one movement ( reservation for haryana jats).How you guys are going to motivate the real crowd to come on roads.? They have enjoyed and enjoying a respectable status socially since ages ; do you think word reservation n seeing themselves with another OBCs which has always respected them as social leaders in a villages/city will accept it just for the sake of adimission in some govt/govt approved institutions? Its okay as you say there are limited seats in Medical colleges( surely you can omit Engineering scenario now as Haryana has emerged as S/w engineer producing hubs from its institutes).
What do you say abt lakhs of simple BA and other graduates? All Jats crowd from villages do not fight entrance exams for PMT only.If it is only for PMT n higher studies then simple BA/equivalent graduates will not feel discriminated among Jats as well? What abt the employement generation for these poor graduates? I think it will be more wise to train them in english language atleast so that they can earn their livlihood in flourising call centre culture.

3. Would the nature of agitation( its hard to call a movement) be the educational reservation or Govt Jobs too ? This is really a big question.
How it would be saved from being a mere politcal gemmick?

I would rather say that people will come forward may be not today an year after if they movement will pick up .... though you are right ... jab padhey likhey iss false honour ko nahi chod paa rahe hein apne faede ke liye to wo log to bahut samjhane padenge .... but still as per general thinking now a days ... they also have realised ... .they follow politicians like dogs to get their child placed in clerks, constables .... you will not believe the rate of bus conductors though initially this was advertised as no pension and contract basis ....and later they will be consumed as regulars .... was upto 5-6 lakhs .... to bhai jib uneh nue bataya jaga ek chances job milan ke badh jyange iste to we sab bhool jyange ...

4. Another which has been over looked in this discussion is the prosperity status of the state since last couple of years nationally on the basis Per Capita Income . You can find the data as Haryana being in top 5 performing states. It is very obvious that solely jats didnt bring this status but they have major account in to it.
Would it not be contradictory for the backward commission to look at these reports? I mean economical status as the issue for pro-reservation agitation.

Delhi Jats are more richer and prosperous ... rather every jati in delhi ... got crores of their lands ... still they got ... where were those commissions and their reports .... how they proved .... cant say ... but sab chalta hai ...

5. Like you said, its about being opprtunistic in the current 'bahati ganga' for Jats in Haryana,.From Bahadurgarh to Loharu, Rewari to Ambala, How this diversity will be united.? I mean to have some sound action plans by seed inducer ex-service men/retired judges and many same minded folks who are currently in exalted state of illusion. Like last time in 1999 they failed to fill up the common questionarrie given by NCBC.( That link [http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/f...0510109100.htm] still is waiting for you to be cliked in my previous post and kindly go through it).Will they make it sure to be enough wise not to repeat it again( provided govt set it up again)or would wait for any xyz caste to start agitation to mess up the country and citizens and a great shame to nation.

I havent clicked on that for two reasons as you have mixed it with some other text also ... .second ... I found these kind of commissions and reports void in India. Examples I cited above and you also know. In rajasthan no commission will go against Meena's though they are not at all deserve what they are getting ... because ...

1) Strong hold in beurocracy
2) Ekta
3) Good number of seats in Loksabha as well as vidhansabha are influenced.

So better not to consider these are standards.

Haan this suggestion of yours is good and the people in the commette like tewatia ji, narender ji ... dharampal ji ... should consider these.

 

[jitendershooda]

Contd...

6. Ch Charan Singh proposed this Mandal Commission for reservation of backwardness of the caste.But he was wise to propose it on economic basis.
Is there any such political/intellectual leadership available which is acceptable to all Jats in Haryana?

Bhai mere sabhne apna faeda chahiye aaj ke time pe ... to koe bhi leader ban jyaga .... ho sake se jib log katthey hote deekhenge to chautala ee prabhu ban baithey ....

I tried to be less aggressive this time.I hope and wish you would try to answer above raised questions positively and sidewise will give a reflection over it seriously..I would love to be defeated in this mental-mastrubation debate ( Forgive me Mods for the use of this particular word) and I'm open to be criticised personally anytime, anywhere and by anyone. I'm up for long term cure for the race not for allopathic symptomatic treatment which eventually cause unwanted side effects.( which you have mentioned in your reply to Anil as Aatank, chorri, cheena jhapti). For this my point of view is totally against towards reservation to the Jats of Haryana as first step.I found reservation as a whinny mean/tool for the weak and insecure castes.Do you consider Jats in Haryana as one?

One poster in another thread( Rajiv ji) raised up the issue of Enterpreneurship here, I would really appreciate if anyone would go through the following threads once and step forward to repeat it.Its quite ironical that I had requested mods to re open these old threads but no one has noticed them seriously yet. I'm being shameless now and pasting those links again.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5457


http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6167

PS: This post is a try to reflect 'HOW' And 'What' of Pro-reservation argument rather than any alternative solution.Some of the answers for future lies in above pasted link of old threads.

Thanks.

Bhai mere ... jin birbal ji ka aapne jikr kiya ... he is most respected person ... I do respect him a lot ... but dont know if you have read his post on ABCD of dnd ji or not ... he also found it hard to servive here in India ... he said that india aaj ke time pe un logo ke liye rahe gaya hai jo .... unfair means se kuch bhi paa sakein ... ya politics mein jinka hath ho .... (may be these were not exact words but like this only) ....

what will you say now?

I am going a bit personal bhai ... but not for any uphas reason .... but just to explain it more practically ....

You yourself told that you were just on margins in PMT rohtak .... then you left for ireland .... so my friend ... one thing you were able to come out of that daldal only because you/your family were rich enough, here if you would have been from a simple handtomouth family ... just try to trace your proceedings ... what you have done so far and will these thoughts be in your mind ..... have a analysis. Wo bachpan mein padhya karte ... sanskrit mein ... we musse us pathik ki potli tahi kyun oonchey kooden they ... kyonki unke paas paryapt bhandar tha khane ka ... to chikya aud aadmi ghani kood mar sake se .... je aap bhi us ghapad-choth mein fhase hote to ... nue kisse neta ke pache lag ke bed kar naukri ka jugad toh rahe hote .... (as you have said that you would have been highly optimistic .... then say you have prepared for some exams ... your family would have to suffer a lot ... as they might have expected you to earn money for your younger daughters marriage ... your marriage ... aur mein kaheta hun ki aise mahol mein aadmi adha to waise hi down ho jata hai chahe kitna bhi honhar ho ... let us say even then you will emerge out to be some successfull ... might have got job ... pher apni grihasti mein lag jate .... eeb pher bhi aap nue kaho ek aap mein pher bhi jajba hota kuch samaj ke liye karne ka ... to mein nue kahunga ek aise aadmi bahut kam hote hein ... aur mein aapko ab bhi bahut aasha bhari dristi se dekhta hun ... aap jaroor kuch karoge agar aap iss category mein ho to .... aur agar aap nahi ho to ... ye batein samae ke sath mand pad jaengi ... aur aap ye sochoge har sal ki abhi thoda aur paisa kamaon .... taki wahan jake kuch aacha kar paon ... aur aisa karte karte you will be 5 years older .... aur byah shadi er so pachad honge ... still if you could be able to keep this thought intact .... you will not be full time ... but still if you be full time ... i will appreciate you a lot ... aur sach mein kaheta hun ki aap kuch aacha jaroor kar paoge ... good luck bhai ... er koe dikkat na hai manne ... aggressive hon te .... par galat na likhna chahiye .... shabd kathor ho sakte hein galat nahi hone chahiye ...)

Meri mansik sthiti itni strong nahi hai ... aur isliye mein aapke aur anil ki terah se itna ooncha nahi soch pata hun .... aur short cut se hi umeed laga leta hun.

One more thing I wish to say you bhai Samar .... you and anil both are mixing .... the welfare of the community ... moves to uplift them by spreading education and all .... to this reservation .... if feel that these two are separate things .... and the moves you are talking are required despite of the reservation or not ... nobody is holding you people ... you come on ... go ahead ....

Also you have mentioned in other thread that you have collected few people for the noble cause of helping the boxer .... bhai you can donate those to JJ we are really in need of funds .... contribute ... nobody will hold you .... work hard .... as much you can ... you are strong and nice chap ..... navin bhai need people like you. (Eeb koe nue bhi kahen ne ho rahya hai ... ek bhai JJ aalyo thari to jholi pat rahi hai ... ha ha ...)

 

[jitendershooda]

I just love keeping things simple. Be it naive arguments.

Bhai Anil .... not replying to your above post ... as we agreed earlier

Par bhai iss aapke jumle pe mein jaroor kuch kahunga ....

Ha ha Simple .... bhai manne aapke tarq padhan mein aache lagya karein ... par pache si kuch time te aap bera na ke karo so .... Bera na kun-kun se te law ...achemedies...average...statistics...matematical .... la dyo so ... ek mein ye baat aante hi aage ne bad jyaon sun ... kar be kari kosis par konya bani baat ... maka le bhai kade simple likhega to padh lyange ... na mandya rahen de ... ha ha ...

To bhai nue rakhoge to mhare bhi kime do daane knowledge ke pad jyange ... ha ha

 

[anilsinghd]

And your spirit defeated me Jit Bhai !

Regarding aapki baat ki we are mixing community serivce with reservation , ummm... pata nahi ! lekin shayad kahin na kahin dono baton ka destination ek hi hai !


aur fir maine to pehle kaha tha ki in the end our goals have to converge , its only the means that differ.


And thanks for the wishes , the more people say that i might not be able to do it , the stronger gets my resolve !

And i reiterate : contributing back to society is not our leisure , its our responsibility.

And yes , i belong to the generation of doers , not it back , relax and say and think and do nothing or meagre!

 

[brahmtewatia]

the final conclusion

reservation for the needy one's...tht was my contention of argument...throughout...in the thread !!! i had n'vr advocated reservation on caste basis. as simple as a,b,c...requires no substantiation of views/thoughts/pleas...watever !!!

when u talk of needy one's u'll find them a lot among the list of 3000 OBC's mentioned in india. here we r talking abt the needy jats nd the subject of the thread is JAT RESERVATION...nd thts my ground for supporting the reservation. if folks call tht discrimination to other needy one's then i wud say YES...i might b discriminating...but remember m trying to 1st put my house in order. having said so, please b informed tht m not talking on this thread abt secularism, holistic living, depleting water levels, environmental degradation or may b greenhouse effects.

I would rather say , YES we do need reservation , but not on the basis of caste but on the basis of need , and that does not segregate jats , gujjars , sc's , st's !

Again some might categorise this as total nonsense , but if we are talking about resource allocation , I would rather go on the economic criterions rather than the caste....कान दोनों ही पकड़ रहे हैं, एक सीधे तरीके से, तो दूसरा घुमा के...and i thought i was conversing in english...he he he...

"u cannot change the past, but u can ruin a perfectly gud present by worrying abt the future"...lets put our house in order rather then generalizing the subject nd apprehending other future problems...reservations for JATS, thts the call of the day !!!