Abhi...kunssa MP.......achcha-2 ow......owhhe........ibb ow aadami thoda e rehgya sei.......ow MP sahab sei bhai......Public ke paas tou ow Rei(vote) lenn aaweigga....na tei iss siddi ood public tein ke lena dena ussnei......Jai HO inn Ki!
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Abhi...kunssa MP.......achcha-2 ow......owhhe........ibb ow aadami thoda e rehgya sei.......ow MP sahab sei bhai......Public ke paas tou ow Rei(vote) lenn aaweigga....na tei iss siddi ood public tein ke lena dena ussnei......Jai HO inn Ki!
sumitsehrawat
New member
Dev Sir, I agree with a few things that you said. Fine! Now tell me one thing...
"Time itself will bring us face to face with realities as Time only decides the destinies" ---> Is this not an ignobly timid and faint-hearted statement??
If things go this way, with "TIME" India may be divided into many countires not just on the basis of religion but castes as well. You will not survive till then and neither will I but then in about 100-200 years India may be divided into many more Pakistans and who knows we ourselves, semi-consciously, create a Jat-nation of our own. Are we guys really 'very' different from the Thackerays??
I am not very particularly fond of an idea of a war... but then, for our very own protection it is needed. A LESSON is to be taught...
Kitne % logo ki progress kara rahi hai humaari unnnati--- ye bolne se pehle aapne aapki "Time only decides the destinies" waali baat kyun nahi boli??
And Sir, for your kind information, I never talked about 'pahelwani'. I do agree with the other things that you mentioned.
"Time itself will bring us face to face with realities as Time only decides the destinies" ---> Is this not an ignobly timid and faint-hearted statement??
If things go this way, with "TIME" India may be divided into many countires not just on the basis of religion but castes as well. You will not survive till then and neither will I but then in about 100-200 years India may be divided into many more Pakistans and who knows we ourselves, semi-consciously, create a Jat-nation of our own. Are we guys really 'very' different from the Thackerays??
I am not very particularly fond of an idea of a war... but then, for our very own protection it is needed. A LESSON is to be taught...
Kitne % logo ki progress kara rahi hai humaari unnnati--- ye bolne se pehle aapne aapki "Time only decides the destinies" waali baat kyun nahi boli??
And Sir, for your kind information, I never talked about 'pahelwani'. I do agree with the other things that you mentioned.
Sumit...pehlwani se mera matlab tha sirf josh se...jo ki Maturity ke saath juda na ho tou natizze khatarnak hote hein.Whatever you call my approach..ignobaly,timid or faint hearted....but i stand by that.Iss desh ko thheek karne ki hamaari part jimmeddaari hei...saari nahin and i am live to that as far as my duties are concerned to that extent.
It is childish to assume that you can walk down to Lahore like a cat(FOOLISH)....Pakistan has its own capabilities....our bravado not withstanding.And when a nation gets attacked the people of that nation too carry as patriotic feelings as you and we carry and thus will do all they could to defend their motherland...so it is not a copyright with Indians.And you are not aware of the consequences of a WAR at all.It is easier said than done.
Solution lies in putting our house in order which is almost made impossible by the political culture,kind of governance,attitude of general public towards their duties(only their rights are too well known to them).......There is need to have a proper mechanism to protect our countrymen from these terrorists...like US has done it...but then US public is awackend,well educated and asks the pound of flesh from politicians as and when their actions hurt AMERICAN INTEREST.Long way to go for us.....and hence the TIME factor i highlighted.
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anilsangwan
Active member
Bhai,
Lekin uske comment karney se kya hoga. Yeh Neta log sabb susrey comment e toh kartey rehwein sein... comments ke illawa inn ne kuch na aata.... Manmohan ne dekh lo... sirf comment.... er woh foootti-odd bottle se muh aala... Patill... uss ne toh comment karna bhi na aata...
Toh iss MP ke comment tein k aas karein bhai hum..!!! Yeh comment karengey aagle saal jab election aawega... uss din chahe bhai thaari mheinsa ka gobbar girwa liye uss kenne... tyaar paawega woh .....er uske chamchey !!! :rock
PS: Not tragetting anyone.
Lekin uske comment karney se kya hoga. Yeh Neta log sabb susrey comment e toh kartey rehwein sein... comments ke illawa inn ne kuch na aata.... Manmohan ne dekh lo... sirf comment.... er woh foootti-odd bottle se muh aala... Patill... uss ne toh comment karna bhi na aata...
Toh iss MP ke comment tein k aas karein bhai hum..!!! Yeh comment karengey aagle saal jab election aawega... uss din chahe bhai thaari mheinsa ka gobbar girwa liye uss kenne... tyaar paawega woh .....er uske chamchey !!! :rock
PS: Not tragetting anyone.
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sumitsehrawat
New member
Let me try to answer you here... but please before I write anything I would request you to keep an open mind. If possible don't think what is written below is from an escapist.
Why are the below mentioned (Jit, Sumit, Nishant and Siddharth) asked to go and fight in a war?? Why?? Fighting war is a soldier's job. Forming a government and running a country/state is a politician's job. I agree their nature of job is more risky and something that really calls for salutes. I dont deny that. Now, politicians. We elect them... fine... but then when we criticise their decisions or the lack we cannot be simply asked "ok you come and form a government". That is no way to answer anyone. We all are interdependent on each other. If tomorrow, one of the Indian Air Force's Jet is not able to drop a bomb due to a software bug in the hi-tech aplications installed then the software engineers could very well be criticised and that should be accepted. After choosing who would lead us, we do not go and sit idle.... we do our job. When we are wrong in our job then we should be criticised. Sitting in the AC cabins and writing code on computer does not mean that we dont contribute to our country. Yes, we do not fight like brave soldiers as they do on the borders and nowadays in and out of the prime hotels in the city, but then we also do something... how-so-ever little. Today, India's economy as a whole is doing very good... and very well placed on world map. Do we have no contribution in that?? And is our contribution not really worthy???
I dont really wish to argue here... but then I am of a firm opinion that critics play a great part in overall development and melioration of an individual, organization, state and country.
So I request you not to say things like... "Do something youself ... if you can't then shut up" etc etc. We all are putting our best efforts forward... some on the borders, some in water... some sitting in AC rooms
.
If tomorrow an emergency is applied and people are called to fight in war then everyone will contribute in whatever ways we can. That much I am sure of.
And, if you wish to reply then do so only for the message that I want to put across in this post... I rest my case....!!
Not an escapist,
Sumit
Why are the below mentioned (Jit, Sumit, Nishant and Siddharth) asked to go and fight in a war?? Why?? Fighting war is a soldier's job. Forming a government and running a country/state is a politician's job. I agree their nature of job is more risky and something that really calls for salutes. I dont deny that. Now, politicians. We elect them... fine... but then when we criticise their decisions or the lack we cannot be simply asked "ok you come and form a government". That is no way to answer anyone. We all are interdependent on each other. If tomorrow, one of the Indian Air Force's Jet is not able to drop a bomb due to a software bug in the hi-tech aplications installed then the software engineers could very well be criticised and that should be accepted. After choosing who would lead us, we do not go and sit idle.... we do our job. When we are wrong in our job then we should be criticised. Sitting in the AC cabins and writing code on computer does not mean that we dont contribute to our country. Yes, we do not fight like brave soldiers as they do on the borders and nowadays in and out of the prime hotels in the city, but then we also do something... how-so-ever little. Today, India's economy as a whole is doing very good... and very well placed on world map. Do we have no contribution in that?? And is our contribution not really worthy???
I dont really wish to argue here... but then I am of a firm opinion that critics play a great part in overall development and melioration of an individual, organization, state and country.
So I request you not to say things like... "Do something youself ... if you can't then shut up" etc etc. We all are putting our best efforts forward... some on the borders, some in water... some sitting in AC rooms
. If tomorrow an emergency is applied and people are called to fight in war then everyone will contribute in whatever ways we can. That much I am sure of.
And, if you wish to reply then do so only for the message that I want to put across in this post... I rest my case....!!
Not an escapist,
Sumit
Jit, Sumit, Nishant, Siddharth
I hope these guys must have left their home till now and are up for some real 'ACTION'
AND IF NOT .................. am not asking anything coz you wont be able to answer it right.
The more you can talk about WHY NOT SOME REAL ACTION, USELESS POLITICIANS, ATTACK PAKISTAN etc etc ......... you are just venting out your grief (which we all have .... believe us we also are of the same opinion that a handful of people coming and killing 100's of people not in some blast .... but by shooting them one by one is a tight SLAP on the face of our country .... and we should by no means just sit and organise some conference, constitute committees and such bull$hit things but we ought to answer them in the language they understand !! We should hit them so hard that they can never dare to do such heinous act here .... AND if we let it go this time we will be at a massive loss forever ......)
But...... such venting of emotions wont help AT ALL (or will it?? )! Do something and if you cant then why not just make a resolve to try harder and may be some day your efforts can bear fruit....
And if this is preaching then this can be worth it in future, but the heat you are showing through words is worth what??
brahmtewatia
Active member
Why are the below mentioned (Jit, Sumit, Nishant and Siddharth) asked to go and fight in a war?? Why?? Fighting war is a soldier's job. Forming a government and running a country/state is a politician's job. I agree their nature of job is more risky and something that really calls for salutes. I dont deny that. Now, politicians. We elect them... fine... but then when we criticise their decisions or the lack we cannot be simply asked "ok you come and form a government". That is no way to answer anyone. We all are interdependent on each other. If tomorrow, one of the Indian Air Force's Jet is not able to drop a bomb due to a software bug in the hi-tech aplications installed then the software engineers could very well be criticised and that should be accepted. After choosing who would lead us, we do not go and sit idle.... we do our job. When we are wrong in our job then we should be criticised. Sitting in the AC cabins and writing code on computer does not mean that we dont contribute to our country. Yes, we do not fight like brave soldiers as they do on the borders and nowadays in and out of the prime hotels in the city, but then we also do something... how-so-ever little. Today, India's economy as a whole is doing very good... and very well placed on world map. Do we have no contribution in that?? And is our contribution not really worthy???
I dont really wish to argue here... but then I am of a firm opinion that critics play a great part in overall development and melioration of an individual, organization, state and country.
So I request you not to say things like... "Do something youself ... if you can't then shut up" etc etc. We all are putting our best efforts forward... some on the borders, some in water... some sitting in AC rooms
If tomorrow an emergency is applied and people are called to fight in war then everyone will contribute in whatever ways we can. That much I am sure of.
10/10..........
nishantrathi82
New member
Let me try to answer you here... but please before I write anything I would request you to keep an open mind. If possible don't think what is written below is from an escapist.
Why are the below mentioned (Jit, Sumit, Nishant and Siddharth) asked to go and fight in a war?? Why?? Fighting war is a soldier's job. Forming a government and running a country/state is a politician's job. I agree their nature of job is more risky and something that really calls for salutes. I dont deny that. Now, politicians. We elect them... fine... but then when we criticise their decisions or the lack we cannot be simply asked "ok you come and form a government". That is no way to answer anyone. We all are interdependent on each other. If tomorrow, one of the Indian Air Force's Jet is not able to drop a bomb due to a software bug in the hi-tech aplications installed then the software engineers could very well be criticised and that should be accepted. After choosing who would lead us, we do not go and sit idle.... we do our job. When we are wrong in our job then we should be criticised. Sitting in the AC cabins and writing code on computer does not mean that we dont contribute to our country. Yes, we do not fight like brave soldiers as they do on the borders and nowadays in and out of the prime hotels in the city, but then we also do something... how-so-ever little. Today, India's economy as a whole is doing very good... and very well placed on world map. Do we have no contribution in that?? And is our contribution not really worthy???
I dont really wish to argue here... but then I am of a firm opinion that critics play a great part in overall development and melioration of an individual, organization, state and country.
So I request you not to say things like... "Do something youself ... if you can't then shut up" etc etc. We all are putting our best efforts forward... some on the borders, some in water... some sitting in AC rooms
If tomorrow an emergency is applied and people are called to fight in war then everyone will contribute in whatever ways we can. That much I am sure of.
And, if you wish to reply then do so only for the message that I want to put across in this post... I rest my case....!!
Not an escapist,
Sumit
I was about to wriiten the same u put that very well
anilsangwan
Active member
Steek aiwam sahi uttar!!
Let me try to answer you here... but please before I write anything I would request you to keep an open mind. If possible don't think what is written below is from an escapist.
Why are the below mentioned (Jit, Sumit, Nishant and Siddharth) asked to go and fight in a war?? Why?? Fighting war is a soldier's job. Forming a government and running a country/state is a politician's job. I agree their nature of job is more risky and something that really calls for salutes. I dont deny that. Now, politicians. We elect them... fine... but then when we criticise their decisions or the lack we cannot be simply asked "ok you come and form a government". That is no way to answer anyone. We all are interdependent on each other. If tomorrow, one of the Indian Air Force's Jet is not able to drop a bomb due to a software bug in the hi-tech aplications installed then the software engineers could very well be criticised and that should be accepted. After choosing who would lead us, we do not go and sit idle.... we do our job. When we are wrong in our job then we should be criticised. Sitting in the AC cabins and writing code on computer does not mean that we dont contribute to our country. Yes, we do not fight like brave soldiers as they do on the borders and nowadays in and out of the prime hotels in the city, but then we also do something... how-so-ever little. Today, India's economy as a whole is doing very good... and very well placed on world map. Do we have no contribution in that?? And is our contribution not really worthy???
I dont really wish to argue here... but then I am of a firm opinion that critics play a great part in overall development and melioration of an individual, organization, state and country.
So I request you not to say things like... "Do something youself ... if you can't then shut up" etc etc. We all are putting our best efforts forward... some on the borders, some in water... some sitting in AC rooms
If tomorrow an emergency is applied and people are called to fight in war then everyone will contribute in whatever ways we can. That much I am sure of.
And, if you wish to reply then do so only for the message that I want to put across in this post... I rest my case....!!
Not an escapist,
Sumit
sidchhikara
New member
HEre is a very interesting analysis of Pakistan's hand in these attacks on www.greatbong.net --- the why and how regarding this ordeal.
Here is the original link http://greatbong.net/2008/11/28/indias-nine-eleven/
India’s Nine Eleven
Published November 28th, 2008 in Politics.
[Warning: long post]
Is this India’s 9/11? There is no doubt that what we have seen today is as much an act of war as 9/11. Foreigners have breached the nation’s borders (with consummate ease may we add). Not through the snowy slopes in the mountains. We are used to that. Not through the porous borders of Bangladesh. We know of that. But through the coastal waters of India’s biggest, supposedly most secure, city. The waters of which as a route for narcotics smuggling should theoretically have been under heavy government surveillance. Or perhaps it is the very lucrativeness of the clandestine water traffic (after this this is D-country) that makes the local authorities not look too closely.
However will this the proverbial last straw on the camel’s back that will ultimately make national security the number one national agenda? Will this change India as 9/11 changed USA fundamentally? Though I would like to hope so, I have too much faith in our so-called “resilience” to be more than a bit pessimistic.
To understand the scope of the operation and the sheer scale of India’s failure, one needs to look at historic precedents of similar kinds of amphibious assault. In 1961, in the famous Bay of Pigs invasion Cuban emigres, trained by the CIA, tried to retake Havana by a similar beach-originated attack after days of US air attack. They could not get much beyond the beach despite being supported by the full might of the United States of America, which in the 60s was possibly at the height of its power. Though I do not want to draw exact historical parallels (the scope of Bay of Pigs was to overthrow Castro), the point I am trying to make is that it should be theoretically intensely difficult for foreigners to use the sea route to infiltrate a country, even more so when the country claims to have an extensive defense infrastructure. But these group of men, well trained and equipped they be, managed to do so without detection and without being attacked. If this does not shake every Indian to the core, I fail to see what will.
The two questions that we all ask now: is why and who? The questions we do not ask because we are afraid of the answers are “When next?” and “How much more”? This being a sunny happy blog, let me not even go into those dark areas. For now.
Foreign news agencies like CNN spare no breath in telling us how India always blames Pakistan in a “knee-jerk” fashion for every incident in the country. This is of course knee-jerk only when India is concerned, when the US identifies Al-Qaeda and Taliban days after 9/11 as the culprit (and correctly too) it is considered to be justice. In a comment to a previous post, a Pakistani commenter Sana says:
However what I am going to do is that I will suspect my next-door neighbor and you can call that “knee jerk” if you will. Terrorism does not affect India and Pakistan equally. In Pakistan, terrorism is between rival gangs of terrorists while in India it is between terrorists and their targets. Benazir Bhutto was a facilitator of terrorists and instigated crowds of Kashmiris to murder Pandits. This is on videotape. She got assassinated by another terrorist.
Terrorist eats terrorist.So there you have it. My point illustrated.
The point is that once you start defining yourself by extremism, there always will be others who will take an even more extreme and populist stance and make your extremism “conformism”. General Musharaff had thought after 2001, that for the war of terror he would give to the US some token targets, get wads of cash and divert that to the Kashmir cause and that the Pakistani people would thank him for it. However soon there arose a tidal wave of contrary public opinion which perceived the game of Mushy to be pandering to the West. Many people were not even willing to put up the symbolic facade of “fighting their brothers”. And why should they? After all, they were not skimming off the top, had no personal stake in the “bogus war on terror” and saw no perceived progress in snatching Kashmir from India. This is the kind of internal tensions has lead to the terrorist violence in Pakistan and the burning of Karachi.
Things with India are extremely different. Here Pakistan’s enmity with India is historic. As a matter of fact, some may say that the very reason of Pakistan’s existence is a rejection of the fundamental principles behind India—secularism, pluralism and equality for all.
The fundamental problem that Pakistan has with India has magnified over the last few years.
Here is the original link http://greatbong.net/2008/11/28/indias-nine-eleven/
India’s Nine Eleven
Published November 28th, 2008 in Politics.
[Warning: long post]
Is this India’s 9/11? There is no doubt that what we have seen today is as much an act of war as 9/11. Foreigners have breached the nation’s borders (with consummate ease may we add). Not through the snowy slopes in the mountains. We are used to that. Not through the porous borders of Bangladesh. We know of that. But through the coastal waters of India’s biggest, supposedly most secure, city. The waters of which as a route for narcotics smuggling should theoretically have been under heavy government surveillance. Or perhaps it is the very lucrativeness of the clandestine water traffic (after this this is D-country) that makes the local authorities not look too closely.
However will this the proverbial last straw on the camel’s back that will ultimately make national security the number one national agenda? Will this change India as 9/11 changed USA fundamentally? Though I would like to hope so, I have too much faith in our so-called “resilience” to be more than a bit pessimistic.
To understand the scope of the operation and the sheer scale of India’s failure, one needs to look at historic precedents of similar kinds of amphibious assault. In 1961, in the famous Bay of Pigs invasion Cuban emigres, trained by the CIA, tried to retake Havana by a similar beach-originated attack after days of US air attack. They could not get much beyond the beach despite being supported by the full might of the United States of America, which in the 60s was possibly at the height of its power. Though I do not want to draw exact historical parallels (the scope of Bay of Pigs was to overthrow Castro), the point I am trying to make is that it should be theoretically intensely difficult for foreigners to use the sea route to infiltrate a country, even more so when the country claims to have an extensive defense infrastructure. But these group of men, well trained and equipped they be, managed to do so without detection and without being attacked. If this does not shake every Indian to the core, I fail to see what will.
The two questions that we all ask now: is why and who? The questions we do not ask because we are afraid of the answers are “When next?” and “How much more”? This being a sunny happy blog, let me not even go into those dark areas. For now.
Foreign news agencies like CNN spare no breath in telling us how India always blames Pakistan in a “knee-jerk” fashion for every incident in the country. This is of course knee-jerk only when India is concerned, when the US identifies Al-Qaeda and Taliban days after 9/11 as the culprit (and correctly too) it is considered to be justice. In a comment to a previous post, a Pakistani commenter Sana says:
All I see on this blog and others is Pakistani and Indian bloggers who are otherwise very reasonable getting at each others throats over this. But it is (what is commonly perceived as) a knee-jerk blame Pakistan reaction followed by a knee-jerk blame-India reaction and I am afraid the vicious cycle will only get worse. It seems like that is another evil product of terrorism, turning people against each other, people who have nothing to do with it in the first place. For the sake of neighbourly support and humanity, I am truly sorry for your loss and it is terrible to see this beautiful city being treated this way. I have seen mine own (Karachi) slip into chaos many times and it never stops being painful. Funnily enough, we have a common enemy, so why can’t people see that?
Without wishing to disrespect Sana in any way, let me put things in perspective. Say I come home and find my lock broken into, the safe open and the gold jewelery gone. My next door neighbor is a convicted felon and a locksmith. It was raining that day and there are muddy footprints from his house to mine, going in and coming out. And then just a day later, I see him standing at the goldsmiths door, selling some gold. Now I could say “He is a human being. I am a human being. He lost a few years of his life. I have lost my life’s savings. How could he cause my misery?”. It is an admirable sentiment and one I would teach my son/daughter if I ever choose to have one. If only to pass their moral science exams.
However what I am going to do is that I will suspect my next-door neighbor and you can call that “knee jerk” if you will. Terrorism does not affect India and Pakistan equally. In Pakistan, terrorism is between rival gangs of terrorists while in India it is between terrorists and their targets. Benazir Bhutto was a facilitator of terrorists and instigated crowds of Kashmiris to murder Pandits. This is on videotape. She got assassinated by another terrorist.
Terrorist eats terrorist.So there you have it. My point illustrated.
The point is that once you start defining yourself by extremism, there always will be others who will take an even more extreme and populist stance and make your extremism “conformism”. General Musharaff had thought after 2001, that for the war of terror he would give to the US some token targets, get wads of cash and divert that to the Kashmir cause and that the Pakistani people would thank him for it. However soon there arose a tidal wave of contrary public opinion which perceived the game of Mushy to be pandering to the West. Many people were not even willing to put up the symbolic facade of “fighting their brothers”. And why should they? After all, they were not skimming off the top, had no personal stake in the “bogus war on terror” and saw no perceived progress in snatching Kashmir from India. This is the kind of internal tensions has lead to the terrorist violence in Pakistan and the burning of Karachi.
Things with India are extremely different. Here Pakistan’s enmity with India is historic. As a matter of fact, some may say that the very reason of Pakistan’s existence is a rejection of the fundamental principles behind India—secularism, pluralism and equality for all.
The fundamental problem that Pakistan has with India has magnified over the last few years.
sidchhikara
New member
contd........
And no this magnification has not been something that has been driven exclusively by the philosophy of radical Islam, as is commonly understood.
I would say it has been the green-eyed monster. Jealousy.
While there was a time a few decades ago that Pakistan and India were both in the mud, as a Pakistani commenter said, India chose to look up at the stars while Pakistan kept its face buried in the mud. So while India is seen as a rising power, an economic superpower in 2008, Pakistan is seen universally as a failed state, undoubtedly feared by the West, but as a nuisance actor, the creepy middle-aged man who hangs around at children’s park. Over the last few years, Pakistan has suffered consistent national humiliations—-their citizens have to jump through higher hoops in order to get admitted to Western countries along with countries like Iran, foreign cricket teams have refused to tour the country for many years now because no matter how many times they are referred to as “the front line on the war on terror”, noone is under any misapprehension as to which side of the line Pakistan lies.
A common sentiment I have seen expressed in Pakistani cricket boards—-why does the West refuse to tour Pakistan when India has more number of people killed from terrorist attacks? The reason is simple. The West knows that while there are vast sections of the Pakistani administration hands-in-glove with the terrorists, whereas in India the administration is the unquestioned antagonist of the terrorists. So the fear is that while the Indians may be competent, the Pakistanis may be overtly competent. In the wrong way.
I mention this to illustrate the difference in perception between India and Pakistan. And it is this difference is what drives Pakistan mad.
I would poke my head out and say that the recent attacks represents perhaps Pakistan’s most egregious attempt to bring India to the level of Pakistan in terms of international perception. What Pakistan wants to show is that:
1. Foreigners are as safe in India as they are in Pakistan
2. Do not invest in India.
In other words, November 26 is the day that Pakistani terrorists want to show the world that they and India are, in a way, equal. This they want to do by destroying our national confidence, our economy and our tourism. Make no mistake about this.
Now that we have tried to answer “why”, let’s look at who. One of the most important aspects of this attack has been the taking of an American Rabbi as a hostage by the terrorists making Nariman House a special target just for that purpose.
Ask any SIMI rabid radical and while he may fulminate against the Jewish state, it is highly unlikely he would ever go out of his way to get at Jews in India.
Radical Islam in India and Pakistan has been driven by anti-Hinduism. However if you go to the middle East, they don’t care for Hindus. There radical Islam is driven solely by their historic antagonism to Jews.
In this light, the taking of American Jewish hostages may be of great importance. It may represent the changing alignment in the Pakistani terror movement as its leadership passes from a more South-Asia-focused leadership to a more Arab-focused one. This could be the unfortunate concomitant of the failed US war in Afghanistan as the old Al-Qaeda leadership, driven away from Afghanistan but made more powerful, has now taken over operations in Pakistan. Hence the attacks of November 26 are extremely similar to attacks on foreigners in Cairo and in Beirut, with the focus being to attack the US and Israel while humiliating India.
So when the Lashkar e Toiba say they are innocent, perhaps they are right. While their old cadre may be involved in the project operationally and the ISI may still be a major mobilizing and training force, the old brain-trusts of the LET are perhaps no longer in control of the Pakistani Jihadi movement. In other words, the actual Jihadis may be South-Asian but the ones pulling the strings thousands of miles away may be Arabs. Which is why they go out of their way to take a Jewish American hostage and that too a Rabbi.
The train and bus bombings were the “old” way of doing things. These endeavors meet their objectives in the following manner: 1) cause panic 2) make the Indian government make heavy-handed arrests 3) portray those arrested as innocents by “friends” in the media and 4) antagonize minorities who are fed the message that they are being targeted. This I expect will continue.
But November 26 has shown that there is a new kind of terrorism which has emerged—-the kind that does not make much attempt to hide its foreign bonafides, which seeks to effect a more direct toll by breaking international confidence in a country’s economic and political institutions, and which has multiple strategic objectives one of which is to promote and provoke sectarian violence.
If one wants to see an example of how a country crumbles under such attacks, read the modern history of Lebanon where a multi-cultural, liberal country was decimated by a series of such attacks, fragmenting the country into essentially a group of warring militias.
Dark days ahead
And no this magnification has not been something that has been driven exclusively by the philosophy of radical Islam, as is commonly understood.
I would say it has been the green-eyed monster. Jealousy.
While there was a time a few decades ago that Pakistan and India were both in the mud, as a Pakistani commenter said, India chose to look up at the stars while Pakistan kept its face buried in the mud. So while India is seen as a rising power, an economic superpower in 2008, Pakistan is seen universally as a failed state, undoubtedly feared by the West, but as a nuisance actor, the creepy middle-aged man who hangs around at children’s park. Over the last few years, Pakistan has suffered consistent national humiliations—-their citizens have to jump through higher hoops in order to get admitted to Western countries along with countries like Iran, foreign cricket teams have refused to tour the country for many years now because no matter how many times they are referred to as “the front line on the war on terror”, noone is under any misapprehension as to which side of the line Pakistan lies.
A common sentiment I have seen expressed in Pakistani cricket boards—-why does the West refuse to tour Pakistan when India has more number of people killed from terrorist attacks? The reason is simple. The West knows that while there are vast sections of the Pakistani administration hands-in-glove with the terrorists, whereas in India the administration is the unquestioned antagonist of the terrorists. So the fear is that while the Indians may be competent, the Pakistanis may be overtly competent. In the wrong way.
I mention this to illustrate the difference in perception between India and Pakistan. And it is this difference is what drives Pakistan mad.
I would poke my head out and say that the recent attacks represents perhaps Pakistan’s most egregious attempt to bring India to the level of Pakistan in terms of international perception. What Pakistan wants to show is that:
1. Foreigners are as safe in India as they are in Pakistan
2. Do not invest in India.
In other words, November 26 is the day that Pakistani terrorists want to show the world that they and India are, in a way, equal. This they want to do by destroying our national confidence, our economy and our tourism. Make no mistake about this.
Now that we have tried to answer “why”, let’s look at who. One of the most important aspects of this attack has been the taking of an American Rabbi as a hostage by the terrorists making Nariman House a special target just for that purpose.
Ask any SIMI rabid radical and while he may fulminate against the Jewish state, it is highly unlikely he would ever go out of his way to get at Jews in India.
Radical Islam in India and Pakistan has been driven by anti-Hinduism. However if you go to the middle East, they don’t care for Hindus. There radical Islam is driven solely by their historic antagonism to Jews.
In this light, the taking of American Jewish hostages may be of great importance. It may represent the changing alignment in the Pakistani terror movement as its leadership passes from a more South-Asia-focused leadership to a more Arab-focused one. This could be the unfortunate concomitant of the failed US war in Afghanistan as the old Al-Qaeda leadership, driven away from Afghanistan but made more powerful, has now taken over operations in Pakistan. Hence the attacks of November 26 are extremely similar to attacks on foreigners in Cairo and in Beirut, with the focus being to attack the US and Israel while humiliating India.
So when the Lashkar e Toiba say they are innocent, perhaps they are right. While their old cadre may be involved in the project operationally and the ISI may still be a major mobilizing and training force, the old brain-trusts of the LET are perhaps no longer in control of the Pakistani Jihadi movement. In other words, the actual Jihadis may be South-Asian but the ones pulling the strings thousands of miles away may be Arabs. Which is why they go out of their way to take a Jewish American hostage and that too a Rabbi.
The train and bus bombings were the “old” way of doing things. These endeavors meet their objectives in the following manner: 1) cause panic 2) make the Indian government make heavy-handed arrests 3) portray those arrested as innocents by “friends” in the media and 4) antagonize minorities who are fed the message that they are being targeted. This I expect will continue.
But November 26 has shown that there is a new kind of terrorism which has emerged—-the kind that does not make much attempt to hide its foreign bonafides, which seeks to effect a more direct toll by breaking international confidence in a country’s economic and political institutions, and which has multiple strategic objectives one of which is to promote and provoke sectarian violence.
If one wants to see an example of how a country crumbles under such attacks, read the modern history of Lebanon where a multi-cultural, liberal country was decimated by a series of such attacks, fragmenting the country into essentially a group of warring militias.
Dark days ahead
Exactly, This is what I've been advocating for long and I strongly believe this is the only and ultimate way to fix the foul system.
Impose the Army Rule led by a Jat General and see the difference.
I wish and hope it applies soon, Amen !
Rock on
Jit
Impose the Army Rule led by a Jat General and see the difference.
I wish and hope it applies soon, Amen !
Rock on
Jit
rakeshsehrawat
New member
Hahahahahaha
Pehla ARMY RULE Doosra Jat General
Sapne dekhne pe tax nahi hai na bharan khater gud-de bhi bik jate
nishantrathi82
New member
Jit bhai saare theek ho jange aaagar aisa ho gaaya to aurr in Politicians ko to feer bhaaga bhaaga ke maarenge
Let me try to answer you here... but please before I write anything I would request you to keep an open mind. If possible don't think what is written below is from an escapist.
Why are the below mentioned (Jit, Sumit, Nishant and Siddharth) asked to go and fight in a war?? Why?? Fighting war is a soldier's job. Forming a government and running a country/state is a politician's job. I agree their nature of job is more risky and something that really calls for salutes. I dont deny that. Now, politicians. We elect them... fine... but then when we criticise their decisions or the lack we cannot be simply asked "ok you come and form a government". That is no way to answer anyone. We all are interdependent on each other. If tomorrow, one of the Indian Air Force's Jet is not able to drop a bomb due to a software bug in the hi-tech aplications installed then the software engineers could very well be criticised and that should be accepted. After choosing who would lead us, we do not go and sit idle.... we do our job. When we are wrong in our job then we should be criticised. Sitting in the AC cabins and writing code on computer does not mean that we dont contribute to our country. Yes, we do not fight like brave soldiers as they do on the borders and nowadays in and out of the prime hotels in the city, but then we also do something... how-so-ever little. Today, India's economy as a whole is doing very good... and very well placed on world map. Do we have no contribution in that?? And is our contribution not really worthy???
I dont really wish to argue here... but then I am of a firm opinion that critics play a great part in overall development and melioration of an individual, organization, state and country.
So I request you not to say things like... "Do something youself ... if you can't then shut up" etc etc. We all are putting our best efforts forward... some on the borders, some in water... some sitting in AC rooms
If tomorrow an emergency is applied and people are called to fight in war then everyone will contribute in whatever ways we can. That much I am sure of.
And, if you wish to reply then do so only for the message that I want to put across in this post... I rest my case....!!
Not an escapist,
Sumit
Exactly what I said in some other words !
You are very much right in saying that each one of us has a 'different role' to play and we are playing it in our own ways. And obviously we cant jump up and start a battle on our own simply for the reason that its the task of the forces !
And you are also right in saying that CRITICISM has an important role to play ! But but but ...... listen I never said dont criticize, i said dont criticize here where it is of no use !! Do you think Government will look after the criticism you all are registering here in stiff words?
Why not you try some other 'real' place to criticize..... why not you start some campaign or something of that sort? Is it possible to take the job of the Govt or forces in your own hands even if they are completely wrong? Now its not our task to fight a battle and the Government should declare a war BUt, its not declaring (or you can say that it has failed in fulfilling its duty ...) then what can/will you do?
---- Just answer this question
I just said this - if someone is at fault and its not in our hand to directly correct that fault then whats the use in pointing out that fault again & again, whats the use of wasting energy like this? Suppose you are in a habit of writing a diary and you have marvelous & practical ideas to make India the strongest country noted down in that, will it be of much use ???
Talking, feeling, believing and doing are words with massive difference in their meaning & effect.
Heated arguments lead us nowhere ! Just imagine if we handful of people are not able to come to a common or parallel thinking level then how would the ones at the helm of such affairs at national level would (and when they are not strong decision makers too .... )
We are doing our duties properly and we have all right to demand security and be safe, but still there are many amongst us who are not doing their duties and are in a way or the other supporting and breeding such evils ! There are lots and lots of we general men & women who are not performing their duties and catering to their obligations, rather they are helping in breeding terrorists for their own good reasons ! So, we as a whole stand weak and so is the Governement ! Government is Indian, it is comprised of people like you and me ...... but why dont they act have you ever thought over it? They are weak/money-driven/corrupt/selfish/bast@rds/indecisive blah blah is NOT the answer ...... Answer lies somewhere else but we never talk about cure we are busy looking for the ACTION which has ever happened??? Will it happen after your worthy comments????
If yes, we all are with you whats your action plan??
PS:: People often discard small small goods which CAN be done (which are possible to do) by calling them preaching and keep on talking about ACTION which is never done.
People wish and hope a lot ! Do they work ? What are you doing to make this dream come real?
sidchhikara
New member
Blah blah blah blah blah !! ...........................................blah ..............................blah............................................................blah
brahmtewatia
Active member
! ! ! dev sir, that indeed is the crux of the matter ! ! !
... btw, we can blame pakistan or muslim or islamic apologists in media, intellectual as well as political circles... as much as we want and all the way till eternity, till hell freezes over... or till pigs start flying. the fact remains that unless nd until we don’t have leaders who will have the political will, personal courage as well as tenacity to go after this menace with a ferocity never before seen, and deliver results, we will, sadly, be subjected to these kind of heinous terror attacks time-n-again. unfortunately in that scenario - as in current one, we won’t have anyone but ourselves to blame.
sumitsehrawat
New member
Laurels!!
Source: http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/28mumterror-shivraj-patil-is-incompetent.htm
US intelligence expert says Patil is incompetent
Walter Andersen, a former senior Administration official, who headed up the State Department's South Asia Division of the Intelligence and Research Bureau has said the Mumbai terrorist attacks showed clearly a failure of India's intelligence and security apparatus and also the utter incompetence of Home Minister Shivraj Patil.
"Clearly there was failure here of India's intelligence and security and also the security units were slow in responding, which means that the whole system really needs to be revamped," he said. Andersen, currently associate director of the South Asia Program at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, told rediff.com, "I am surprised that after several terrorist incidents, the government hasn't moved faster to get something much more effectively in place."
"You have a totally incompetent home minister, and why he isn't removed is beyond me," he said, "He really doesn't know how to get the bureaucracy organised to have some sort of coordinated planning."
Anderson noted, "And, of course, it happens on the eve of state elections and this cannot be helpful for the Congress party," and he recalled that "like in this country, the economic problem had 'many fathers' but then of course, people blamed the (Bush) Administration." He predicted that "it's likely to be the case in the Indian context as well." On the terrorist attacks, he said, it was to be expected that if would be focused on 'soft targets' as it was. "This is often the norm in terrorist targets anyway -- these soft targets. So, it is not surprising that they would have done that in this case."
"It was an extremely well coordinated and sophisticated attack and it undoubtedly had some kind of larger context. I think they were trying to send out some kind of message. People have been saying that Kashmir is the cause of it, (but) I am not sure that that is necessarily the case," he said. Andersen said, "I believe they want to make an impression that they can strike anywhere and anytime and the larger objective is not Kashmir -- the larger objective is to set off Hindu-Muslim problems in India. I think this has long been one of their objectives."
He acknowledged that in the wake of reports that the terrorists had set up control rooms in the two hotels ahead of time, showed that "this was a sophisticated, well-planned set up. This is something that takes months of planning." Andersen also said the claim of Deccan Mujahideen, like the earlier claims by Indian Mujahideen for terrorist attacks across India, was simply "an effort to show that it is domestically oriented. There maybe an element of that but now that there are reports that they apparently came from a 'mother ship' that was off the coast, and they were speaking Punjabi -- they are from Pakistan."
He acknowledged that "this could have an al Qaeda hallmark as well �well planned and that sort of thing. And, this Deccan Mujahideen is definitely a dummy organisation." Andersen said the targeting of Americans and Britishers by the terrorists was clearly because "the US is associated closely with India and it's obviously an effort to show Americans that we can strike you too." When asked if there wasn't any way the US intelligence and Indian intelligence could have had some indication considering their cooperation and the sophisticated counter-terrorism equipment and other intelligence gathering methods being used, he said, "If a person's willing to kill themselves, it's really hard to control it ahead of time." "And, in this case, they came from ashore, outside the country." But Andersen argued that more than US-India intelligence cooperation, "there probably may need to be better coordination (intelligence) between India and Pakistanon this, but up to now, the intelligence agencies haven't trusted each other sufficiently to really cooperate."
He agreed that it doesn't help that India believes that the Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence is responsible for some of the attacks since it allegedly trains and funds terrorist movements and networks operating in India. There is now apparently evidence even among US intelligence that it was the ISI that was behind the bombing several months ago of the Indian embassy in Afghanistan.
Source: http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/28mumterror-shivraj-patil-is-incompetent.htm
US intelligence expert says Patil is incompetent
Walter Andersen, a former senior Administration official, who headed up the State Department's South Asia Division of the Intelligence and Research Bureau has said the Mumbai terrorist attacks showed clearly a failure of India's intelligence and security apparatus and also the utter incompetence of Home Minister Shivraj Patil.
"Clearly there was failure here of India's intelligence and security and also the security units were slow in responding, which means that the whole system really needs to be revamped," he said. Andersen, currently associate director of the South Asia Program at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, told rediff.com, "I am surprised that after several terrorist incidents, the government hasn't moved faster to get something much more effectively in place."
"You have a totally incompetent home minister, and why he isn't removed is beyond me," he said, "He really doesn't know how to get the bureaucracy organised to have some sort of coordinated planning."
Anderson noted, "And, of course, it happens on the eve of state elections and this cannot be helpful for the Congress party," and he recalled that "like in this country, the economic problem had 'many fathers' but then of course, people blamed the (Bush) Administration." He predicted that "it's likely to be the case in the Indian context as well." On the terrorist attacks, he said, it was to be expected that if would be focused on 'soft targets' as it was. "This is often the norm in terrorist targets anyway -- these soft targets. So, it is not surprising that they would have done that in this case."
"It was an extremely well coordinated and sophisticated attack and it undoubtedly had some kind of larger context. I think they were trying to send out some kind of message. People have been saying that Kashmir is the cause of it, (but) I am not sure that that is necessarily the case," he said. Andersen said, "I believe they want to make an impression that they can strike anywhere and anytime and the larger objective is not Kashmir -- the larger objective is to set off Hindu-Muslim problems in India. I think this has long been one of their objectives."
He acknowledged that in the wake of reports that the terrorists had set up control rooms in the two hotels ahead of time, showed that "this was a sophisticated, well-planned set up. This is something that takes months of planning." Andersen also said the claim of Deccan Mujahideen, like the earlier claims by Indian Mujahideen for terrorist attacks across India, was simply "an effort to show that it is domestically oriented. There maybe an element of that but now that there are reports that they apparently came from a 'mother ship' that was off the coast, and they were speaking Punjabi -- they are from Pakistan."
He acknowledged that "this could have an al Qaeda hallmark as well �well planned and that sort of thing. And, this Deccan Mujahideen is definitely a dummy organisation." Andersen said the targeting of Americans and Britishers by the terrorists was clearly because "the US is associated closely with India and it's obviously an effort to show Americans that we can strike you too." When asked if there wasn't any way the US intelligence and Indian intelligence could have had some indication considering their cooperation and the sophisticated counter-terrorism equipment and other intelligence gathering methods being used, he said, "If a person's willing to kill themselves, it's really hard to control it ahead of time." "And, in this case, they came from ashore, outside the country." But Andersen argued that more than US-India intelligence cooperation, "there probably may need to be better coordination (intelligence) between India and Pakistanon this, but up to now, the intelligence agencies haven't trusted each other sufficiently to really cooperate."
He agreed that it doesn't help that India believes that the Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence is responsible for some of the attacks since it allegedly trains and funds terrorist movements and networks operating in India. There is now apparently evidence even among US intelligence that it was the ISI that was behind the bombing several months ago of the Indian embassy in Afghanistan.
sumitsehrawat
New member
Chuck it. What do you propose?
One of the living organisms in this world spoke something like... "I am surprised that after several terrorist incidents, the government hasn't moved faster to get something much more effectively in place."
One of the living organisms in this world spoke something like... "I am surprised that after several terrorist incidents, the government hasn't moved faster to get something much more effectively in place."
nishantrathi82
New member
Exactly what I said in some other words !
Do you think Government will look after the criticism you all are registering here in stiff words?
Mam this is a discussion forum we all are putting our views here.
Mam go back to 1000 years back and try to think about computer, it look likes same as u written above.
Now its not our task to fight a battle and the Government should declare a war BUt, its not declaring (or you can say that it has failed in fulfilling its duty ...) then what can/will you do?
---- Just answer this question
Awareness between the people that we all have a same thinking and wanted a some worthy steps that can help us.
U r doing same mam
We can very well see in history Revolution against Britishers took place with the people who had a think for a change, who resist against what they are getting. So who know's what's next. So keep trying u will get success some day
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