Lt Gen V K Singh superceded by BHARDWAJ as Vice Army Chief

babu moshay, lathwal ne yeh dialogues film se churaya hae, uska apna kuch nahe, sub copy paste hae. sub dusre ke dimag ka churaya hua maal hae. Hamare film industry ke tarah. :D
When jats discriminate against other jats tho bhai loggon why complain about others doing the same to jats?
Yaar hota hae discrimination hota hae, inn loggon ke saath bhi hua hoga. Inn General kadyan ne tho ek book bhi likhe hae jo inke saath hua tha iske baare mein. :cool:
Bring on all the facts, keep your opinions and fantasies to yourself. Let us walk to army hQ and ask all about this again and again and again. Tub tassli milegi?:D
 
Dear All,

A few quick clarifications before I join the debate. For those who can or care to, please go through my earlier mails and read my comments on the issues of Army as a career, changing times, Corruption in the Army, Patriotism and all allied topics.

There is no question of displaying self smartness by anyone here. Jats are born smarter and naturally consider themselves smarter than others. I am no different.

Yes, I thought rather deeply on the comment about outdated weaponry with the Indian Army during Kargil. It is common knowledge that Indian Artillery hasn’t been upgraded for about 20 years now. A Howitzer is a Cannon having a comparatively short barrel, used esp. for firing shells at a high angle of elevation, as for reaching a target behind cover or in a trench. Therefore, howitzers can’t fire in mountains in that role up to 40 Kilometers. In Kargil the ingenuity factor of the Artillery came to the fore and Bofors Guns were used as howitzers.

I too pay Income Tax, therefore, I too contribute to the government’s kitty from which many get paid.

The arms dealers roam around in the BMW’s to go to Ministry of Defence and not Army HQ. People having basic knowledge of procedure of arms and equipment procurement would understand.

Yes, unscrupulous persons in the defence forces get involved in acts which are prejudicial to good order and military discipline and get punished, and that too rather quickly. In Bareilly one Maj Gen, a couple of Brigadiers and about 8-9 Colonels faced court martial, all together. Corruption is a cancer. There can be no two opinions on it.

Lt Gen Raj Kadyan (Retd) should have done his calculations right when he asked one year’s extension while posted in Paris. That one year cost him. Had there been an officer of any other caste, he too would have met the same fate.

In any case, most of these Generals awaken only after retirement or when superceded.

I have never tried to belittle others training and repository of knowledge of life. I agree that I am not capable of achieving even half of what some distinguished members’ have accomplished. But I know one thing fro sure and that is that given equal opportunities I would have surely done better than most.

The day ‘Regimentation’ ends in the Indian Army, God save this country. Regimentation started during ‘Vedic Period’. Please study this concept in detail.

My belief has always been that the only ‘deshbaghat’ in this country is the poor farmer and soldier. No Army in the world serves for free. The nation does no favor to the Armed Forces by feeding and clothing them. Let them not do it and then see what happens.

A JAT will become Army Chief when a JAT reaches that level of competence and seniority.

Best regards,

JS Malik
 
I had said it on earlier Posts too!!

Dear Col Malik,
I had said it many times earlier too, and just to save time for people to searh it, I re write the famous quote that we all had learnt during the army days.

"The trouble with the world is that Stupids are cock sure, and intellients are full of doubt".

Most people get their facts through the media, but media is not right always and every time. Media is suppose to be service, but it has never been that, it has always been the business and they do write what sells.

So, let us continue to educate people on the subjects that we know, and help them know some thing of our experience and leave it to them what they do with that.
 
Dear Col Malik,

"The trouble with the world is that Stupids are cock sure, and intelligents are full of doubt".

On the lighter side of this-
This is certainly not an intelligent man's observation.

:p

On the serious side-
The Stupid has better chance of correcting his perception and arriving at more scientific assertions.
 
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60 Years no JAT CoAS and wont be like this.

Number of Facts are on tables. Jat Regiment hai, Jat CoAS nahi hai, Kya kuch bhi suspicious nahi hai. Agar appko nahi lagta toh very well.

Aur yeh bhi maan lete hai ki Aaj tak ek bhi jat aisa nahi hoya joh CoAS ban sake.

Thanks for Enlightment by all army persons.

Keep on trying Jat bhai logo. Best Of Luck.
 
who decides who is stupid and who is intelligent? :confused:


इस प्रशन का उत्तर, आप जैसा बुद्धिशाली भाई ही दे सकता है !

लेकिन इस पढ़े लिखे कसौटी पर कसने वाले भाई को क्या कहूँ ?
मुझे अचरज ही नहीं दुःख भी है की आप जाटों के इतने बड़े खैर-खवा हो कर भी ऐसा लिख सकते हो ?
आप और आपके टैक्स पेयर कितनी कीमत देते हैं, उन मुश्किल घड़ियों, दीनो, महीनो और सालों के बदले
जो एक फौजी जवान अपने, गाँव , परिवार, पत्नी और बच्चों से दूर बिताते है ?
आप और आप के टैक्स पेयर कितना भरपाई करते है, उस एक एक पल का जो जीवन और मृत्यु में बराबर बटा होता है ?
आप और आपके टैक्स पेयर, देश पर जान लुटाने की कितनी कीमत देते है ?

खैर, आप जैसा भी सोचें,कहे और लिखें आपका अपना नजरिया है, जिसे व्यक्त करने का आपको पूरा हक है !


अमरीश भाई, आपका इस चर्चा में भाग लेते हुए, मुझे इस नजरिये की कमी जरूर खली थी !

"Keep a bigger heart than than what you had yesterday"


प्रिय कपिल, आपने इस चर्चा में भाग लते हुए, अपनी सयंम भरी लेखनी से, जो भी सारांश प्रस्तुत किया है वो सराहनीय और अनुकरणीय भी है


खुश रहो !
 
अमरीश भाई, आपका इस चर्चा में भाग लेते हुए, मुझे इस नजरिये की कमी जरूर खली थी !

"Keep a bigger heart than than what you had yesterday"


यह थोङा व्यक्तिगत है, फिर भी सामान्य बात यह है कि जातिवाद पर समाजशास्त्रियों की पर्याप्त टिप्पणियाँ शिक्षा जगत में विदित हैं । जातिवाद पर वैज्ञानिक सोच को नकारते हुए सेना को इन पर्यायों ऊपर उठा हुआ मानते हुए उसकी पुरजोर वकालत करना सही मायने में गले नहीं उतरती है ।
खास तौर पर ऐसे समय में जब जाटों को ओ बी सी से बाहर खदेङने के घिनौने प्रयास हो रहे हैं । उच्च जाति के शिक्षाविद् जो कि सरकार के नीति निर्धारण तंत्र के जुङे हुए हैं तथा जिस प्रकार की प्रतिकियावादी सोच रखते हैं, उन्हें इन दो विद्वान सैन्य जनों से उचित सारथी नहीं मिल सकता ।
याद रखें जाट कई वादों की मार एक साथ खा रहे हैं - जातिवाद, क्षेत्रवाद, अंग्रेजीवाद, तंत्रवाद ।

यह मेरे व्यक्तिगत संकट नहीं हैं, परंतु जब इस आधार पर लोगों की समस्याओं को देखता हूँ तब खोखलापन सामने दिखाई देता है । फौज इससे अलग सिर्फ कुछ मायनों में हो सकती है परंतु मुक्त नहीं । मेरा भाँजा शौर्य चक्र प्राप्त है परंतु उसने फौज से अल्प सेवा अवकाश प्राप्त कर लिया, जाहिर अन्य कारणों के अलावा एक कारण यह भी था कि वह अपना आगे भविष्य उज्ज्वल नहीं दिखाई दे रहा था । अगर शूरवीर यह निर्णय लेते हैं तो कहीं तो कुछ ठीक नहीं है ।

And never doubt me! I keep greater heart than what I had yesterday! :-)
 
यह थोङा व्यक्तिगत है, फिर भी सामान्य बात यह है कि जातिवाद पर समाजशास्त्रियों की पर्याप्त टिप्पणियाँ शिक्षा जगत में विदित हैं । जातिवाद पर वैज्ञानिक सोच को नकारते हुए सेना को इन पर्यायों ऊपर उठा हुआ मानते हुए उसकी पुरजोर वकालत करना सही मायने में गले नहीं उतरती है ।
खास तौर पर ऐसे समय में जब जाटों को ओ बी सी से बाहर खदेङने के घिनौने प्रयास हो रहे हैं । उच्च जाति के शिक्षाविद् जो कि सरकार के नीति निर्धारण तंत्र के जुङे हुए हैं तथा जिस प्रकार की प्रतिकियावादी सोच रखते हैं, उन्हें इन दो विद्वान सैन्य जनों से उचित सारथी नहीं मिल सकता ।
याद रखें जाट कई वादों की मार एक साथ खा रहे हैं - जातिवाद, क्षेत्रवाद, अंग्रेजीवाद, तंत्रवाद ।

यह मेरे व्यक्तिगत संकट नहीं हैं, परंतु जब इस आधार पर लोगों की समस्याओं को देखता हूँ तब खोखलापन सामने दिखाई देता है । फौज इससे अलग सिर्फ कुछ मायनों में हो सकती है परंतु मुक्त नहीं । मेरा भाँजा शौर्य चक्र प्राप्त है परंतु उसने फौज से अल्प सेवा अवकाश प्राप्त कर लिया, जाहिर अन्य कारणों के अलावा एक कारण यह भी था कि वह अपना आगे भविष्य उज्ज्वल नहीं दिखाई दे रहा था । अगर शूरवीर यह निर्णय लेते हैं तो कहीं तो कुछ ठीक नहीं है ।

And never doubt me! I keep greater heart than what I had yesterday! :-)

Sir,

I think two issues may be getting confused here- preferential discrimination and systemic discrimination. By former I mean the selection we do in favor of who we like, and by latter I mean a more rampant and focused rejection of a certain class of people. I am coming up with this theory based on my observations and hence it is not my claim that it is scientific (but to be honest, I take quite a few of these 'scientific studies' with a pinch of salt as they ignore the effects of self-selection bias, biased sample sets, correlation-causation fallacy, etc.)

What I have argued against is the claim that Jats are systemically discriminated against in the Armed Forces in general and specifically in the cases cited here. The publicly available material on these cases is reasonably sufficient to take the call that caste was not the determining factor. In fact, it may be hard to make a case for caste as a factor at all in these cases (How is a General who reaches till the very top an example of discrimination? Why was he not stopped by the discriminators much before he reached so close to the top?). In general, if one just looks at the multitude/diversity of factors that exist in a diverse force backed by the arguments given by the ex-servicemen on this forum, it is much harder to make a case for systemic discrimination than to dispute it.

However, that doesn't mean that there would be no cases of discrimination in the armed forces. Which brings me to preferential discrimination that is practised by almost everyone in this world. We do it in our personal decision-making like marriage, making friends, etc. If I am in a group of 100 random people from the world, I'd naturally gravitate towards an Indian. In a group of 100 Indians, towards a Jat or towards someone from my alma mater; and so on and so forth. The effect is visible in professional lives as well. If an ex-IITian goes to an IIM for recruitments, he tends to prefer those from IITs, even if the job has nothing to do even remotely with technical skills. Ditto with an ex-St. Stephanian. But that doesn't mean that the IITians or the Stephanians would automatically bag the job, they'd still have to prove their credentials. But yes, their task becomes easier. The phenomenon exists everywhere. American bosses like Americans, Chinese like Chinese. My desk has quite a few Indians as the boss, though American, liked people from IIMs. Deutsche Bank, a German bank, has more Indians on trading floor than any other nationality, as the head is an Indian. But one has to be clear- It doesn't mean that if you are a non-Indian, you won't succeed in DB. You may not have an advantage to start with, but if you have the merit (and the luck), you'd get there. In the end, a boss always prefers the person who does his job well, as it makes the job of the boss easier.

Similarly in Army, there must be cases where either the Generals or the political class chose someone whom they identified with more over someone else. But won't it be more logical for a General to favor someone he knew personally and closely from his regiment or command rather than an unknown person from his caste? Ditto with politicians- won't they prefer a pliable General? And if we give them some credit, they might also prefer the right candidate to serve under them as that would give better results! If a Jat gets discriminated in the process, it doesn't mean that it was because he was a jat. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Examples of people who got discriminated against may surely be genuine in atleast some cases, but may also reflect self-selection bias. We get to know of these people as they were discriminated against (or didn't get selected as someone else was preferred). In fact, there would also be cases where the person got rejected because of lack of merit, yet attributed it to his caste. Then the case where a person was preferred because he was a Jat would not voluntarily become an example. Even those who move ahead on merit and are not stopped because of their caste, would rarely be cited as examples. Thus the data is self-selecting and not sufficient to derive any conclusion. A real study should start from the NDA where cadets with same performance profile are clubbed and then their performance evaluated over the years. Even that needs to be done over at least 10 batches to rule out any noise in the data. I don't think that has been done.

Caste is a form of identity in India. It may never happen that people stop discriminating in favor of their caste. It may not be the ideal case, but I'd argue that as long as people don't discount merit and don't systemically discriminate against particular castes, it's still be a very good deal. As good a deal as you'd get anywhere in the world anyways.

Regards,
Kapil
 
Sir,

I think two issues may be getting confused here- preferential discrimination and systemic discrimination.

I was avoiding the sociological discourse here. But, it is good to learn that you have found some taste for it. Let me tell you Althusser has stated that what you make of yourself is not a single psychological self, it is more reflected as social self. And, this social self has number of inputs to it. One of the most basic input is the education. The discrimination or the social stratification begins according to him from the educational differences. Now, how does the education creates stratification? The fact cannot be better exemplified by the fact that Brahimins had barred the Shudras from hearing the Vedas. The one who does so should be punished by making him deaf.
So, when you call in the distinction for the preferential and systemic discrimination. So there are various social institutions that contrbute to stratification and also then the subsequent preferences. Money and land is also of that class. These elements then create a yard scale where your preference system works. The point is how you justify your preferences, as I show you in the following.

Let me tell you how hey are the umbilical twins and they act as in an inside-outside relation.
Say for example there is a professor in a University who has a PhD student. This student is of an average class but he does all his household work, a kind of seva like the spoilt system is seen in much of the higher education. If he wants to take him as a recruit then you would call it a preferential discrimination. But, how to do that. This professor does an innovation. He creates a post with a particular kind of desirable qualification that there are very few applicants to that post. And, finally he has used the systemic disrimination to get his half work done under the preferntial discrimination.
The kill is that even though this student may or may not be from his caste but the subservience is required. This is the only secular element to this kind of corruption. So at times the casteist discrimination gets hedged under the secular instruments of discrimination.

What impact comes from caste preference is that such decision the one as in above case are taken from the caste perspective and no from the perosnal(professor's) perpective.
So casteism is very much community preference. Corruption is also a kind of community preference but it is of a very universal kind. The people who practice such preferences in fact take pride by stating that they are dong community service.
भले ही चाहे देश की कार सेवा हो जाये ।
They both go together. After all it is the individual at the top who sign the appointment letters and they decide who should be the COAS. And, they have preferences too, a blend of course.

Quoting my earlier case. Let me tell that Lt Gen Sinha was not superceded by Gen AD Vaidya wihout adquate reason. The excuse was that he had refused to comply with MRs. Gandhi's order of moving the troops to Golden Temple premise, an opportunity which Gen Vaidya promptly captured. So, there would always be justifications for discrimination. But, if it was justified then why Lt Gen Sinha was not court marshalled and in fact awarded the Governeship of ASSAM.
The simple reason is subservience.शरण में चले जाओ, माफ ही नहीं बल्कि पुरुस्कार भी पाओगे ।
यही जाट की सबसे बङी दुविधा है , शरण में जाना मंजूर नहीं है ।
 
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I was avoiding the sociological discourse here. But, it is good to learn that you have found some taste for it. Let me tell you Althusser has stated that what you make of yourself is not a single psychological self, it is more reflected as social self. And, this social self has number of inputs to it. One of the most basic input is the education. The discrimination or the social stratification begins according to him from the educational differences. Now, how does the education creates stratification? The fact cannot be better exemplified by the fact that Brahimins had barred the Shudras from hearing the Vedas. The one who does so should be punished by making him deaf.
So, when you call in the distinction for the preferential and systemic discrimination. So there are various social institutions that contrbute to stratification and also then the subsequent preferences. Money and land is also of that class. These elements then create a yard scale where your preference system works. The point is how you justify your preferences, as I show you in the following.

Let me tell you how hey are the umbilical twins and they act as in an inside-outside relation.
Say for example there is a professor in a University who has a PhD student. This student is of an average class but he does all his household work, a kind of seva like the spoilt system is seen in much of the higher education. If he wants to take him as a recruit then you would call it a preferential discrimination. But, how to do that. This professor does an innovation. He creates a post with a particular kind of desirable qualification that there are very few applicants to that post. And, finally he has used the systemic disrimination to get his half work done under the preferntial discrimination.
The kill is that even though this student may or may not be from his caste but the subservience is required. This is the only secular element to this kind of corruption. So at times the casteist discrimination gets hedged under the secular instruments of discrimination.

What impact comes from caste preference is that such decision the one as in above case are taken from the caste perspective and no from the perosnal(professor's) perpective.
So casteism is very much community preference. Corruption is also a kind of community preference but it is of a very universal kind. The people who practice such preferences in fact take pride by stating that they are dong community service.
भले ही चाहे देश की कार सेवा हो जाये ।
They both go together. After all it is the individual at the top who sign the appointment letters and they decide who should be the COAS. And, they have preferences too, a blend of course.

Quoting my earlier case. Let me tell that Lt Gen Sinha was not superceded by Gen AD Vaidya wihout adquate reason. The excuse was that he had refused to comply with MRs. Gandhi's order of moving the troops to Golden Temple premise, an opportunity which Gen Vaidya promptly captured. So, there would always be justifications for discrimination. But, if it was justified then why Lt Gen Sinha was not court marshalled and in fact awarded the Governeship of ASSAM.
The simple reason is subservience.शरण में चले जाओ, माफ ही नहीं बल्कि पुरुस्कार भी पाओगे ।
यही जाट की सबसे बङी दुविधा है , शरण में जाना मंजूर नहीं है ।

Sir,

Thanks for your response. I agree with it in most parts. But I am not sure how that still validates the argument that there is rampant casteism in Armed forces and that it manifests itself in the appointment to the top posts. The specific examples quoted by you (Professor, Gen. Sinha) pertain to discriminations on factors other than caste.

I am not suggesting that there is NO form of discrimination in the forces. On the contrary, I believe discrimination is natural in any profession. It may not be ideal, but the world is not exactly a Utopia. And it is highly unlikely that caste would be the paramount discriminating factor (reasons in earlier post).

The problem is when a certain section of our community attributes any development to caste followed by solutions laced with caste jingoism. Actual instances of casteism don't hold the community back as much as the imagined instances and subsequent preoccupation with them.

Regards,
Kapil
 
Sir,

But I am not sure how that still validates the argument that there is rampant casteism in Armed forces and that it manifests itself in the appointment to the top posts. The specific examples quoted by you (Professor, Gen. Sinha) pertain to discriminations on factors other than caste.

On the contrary, I believe discrimination is natural in any profession. It may not be ideal, but the world is not exactly a Utopia. And it is highly unlikely that caste would be the paramount discriminating factor (reasons in earlier post).

The problem is when a certain section of our community attributes any development to caste followed by solutions laced with caste jingoism. Actual instances of casteism don't hold the community back as much as the imagined instances and subsequent preoccupation with them.

Regards,
Kapil

I have no where said Army roils with casteism. The debate was focussed only on top posts viz., COAS. See my all readings, in fact I have earlier written that Army has better credentials in this regard.

Caste is obviously one of the factors!

Discrimination survives legitimacy test only when it has been raised through distinction, although it would still remain a discrimination, but it becomes unchallengeable, example, the sports. One can equally question the distinction too, but lesser or more in different systems.

Caste is not paramount. It is the ideology which is paramount for any state discrimination. When Caste rides ideology as secular instruments of discrimination it reveals its paramountcy.

It is not any or every development. After all I did not say that JATS do not discriminate when it comes to excercise power. Even enlightened man like Sir Chotu Ram could not spare himself from these inclinations when he held the office of power.

My point is that caste and its cocktail with ideology has the most harmful consequences on the general morale of the society. The Congress led governments had been Brahamanical in their caste ideology and therefore they betrayed lot of mistrust by systemic alienation of the Backward Classes. Remember the OBCs what they have achieved post-1989 has been unique in terms of political achievements as neither Congress nor BJP (although-partially credit goes only to Vajpayee , in Rajasthan) had delivered by means of promise but by pressure.

The caste is not simply a kind of -ism, it is an ideology for the actors of state. And it is for us to wean that effect away by properly deciphering it.
See the works of Andre Betielle, the noted sociologist on Brahamanism and caste as an ideology.

Thanks!
 
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I have no where said Army roils with casteism. The debate was focussed only on top posts viz., COAS. See my all readings, in fact I have earlier written that Army has better credentials in this regard.

Caste is obviously one of the factors!

Discrimination survives legitimacy test only when it has been raised through distinction, although it would still remain a discrimination, but it becomes unchallengeable, example, the sports. One can equally question the distinction too, but lesser or more in different systems.

Caste is not paramount. It is the ideology which is paramount for any state discrimination. When Caste rides ideology as secular instruments of discrimination it reveals its paramountcy.

It is not any or every development. After all I did not say that JATS do not discriminate when it comes to excercise power. Even enlightened man like Sir Chotu Ram could not spare himself from these inclinations when he held the office of power.

My point is that caste and its cocktail with ideology has the most harmful consequences on the general morale of the society. The Congress led governments had been Brahamanical in their caste ideology and therefore they betrayed lot of mistrust by systemic alienation of the Backward Classes. Remember the OBCs what they have achieved post-1989 has been unique in terms of political achievements as neither Congress nor BJP (although-partially credit goes only to Vajpayee , in Rajasthan) had delivered by means of promise but by pressure.

The caste is not simply a kind of -ism, it is an ideology for the actors of state. And it is for us to wean that effect away by properly deciphering it.
See the works of Andre Betielle, the noted sociologist on Brahamanism and caste as an ideology.

Thanks!

Sir,

I was not attributing the tendency to link any development to caste to you, but to a certain section of the community. You can find examples of the same on these forums. I am sorry if you felt it was a personal comment on you. With respect to top posts in the army, I'd still assert that no concrete logic/evidence has been provided by anyone that shows a systemic discrimination against Jats.

The point that casteism still afflicts our society is an undeniable fact. As you have said, its usage as an ideology is indeed dangerous.

Thanks for mentioning Prof. Andre Betielle. I spent some time reading a few essays written by him. Indeed, he is a brilliant thinker. Here is a link to one of his speeches:
http://www.kolkataporttrust.gov.in/kopt_lecture2007.pdf

It is an excellent piece and the whole of it deserves to be read. But to summarize, he asserts that caste as a factor has been on a decline in three prominent areas: religion and ritual, marriage and association with occupation.

Indeed, untouchability and other such rituals associated with caste have diminished significantly since independence. Inter-caste marriages are much more common, and the opposition to them is mostly from family, and don't invite sanctions from the entire community, like earlier. Finally, the rigid associations of caste with occupation are no longer there. One can see people of every caste in every occupation. There may still be entry barriers, but they are not unsurmountable.

But Betielle also argues that caste as a factor has got a new lease of life because of its increasing prominence in politics and the electoral system. The danger now is that it is being used by political parties not only on grounds of pragmatism, but also on ideological grounds.

Personally, while I am conscious of the second point, I still think that the decline of caste as a factor in other fields is no mean achievement in itself. I think the trend would continue and probably gather more pace as a new generation grows up mostly unconscious of rituals/prejudices of past, and intermingles with other castes at schools/colleges. The social effects of urbanisation, satellite TV, consumerism, etc. are also anti-caste; though they may prop up new problems. Inter-caste marriages may also cross a critical point, making a large section of the society ambivalent, if not entirely indifferent to their caste identity.

As for politics, the current trend vis-a-vis reservations and caste based parties is dangerous. Though one still has to appreciate that even the most vocal of caste politicians like Mayawati have to extend a hand to other castes in their quest for power. The political class would also have to heed to the changes in the society. One can draw a parallel from the US, which had a bitterly divided society in 1960s, with Blacks asserting their political rights and several southern states still officially following policies like segregation. Subsequent changes in society ensured that the current polity is not that divided on the question of race.

Regards,
Kapil
 
Compare these works of Betielle with the works of Dipankar Gupta, another sociologist from JNU. Though he has been championing the cause of Dalits, it is he who takes an opportunity to hit out at the JATs. Their propaganda to deny the OBC reservation in higher education institutions is one of their plank for survival in terms of neo-Brahamanical posture.
And, without making out the fact that JATs don't discriminate in a sense, that they pass on the discrimination just like the tax burden from the upper castes.
 
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dear members,
i don't know unless the things have changed in past 10 years or so, usually, one of the army commnaders takes over as the coas. To the best of my knowledge the vcoas is a ceremonial appointment. So while making any comment, one must look into this aspect.

the second point is the controversy of jat vs brahmin, that some members are raising. I don't know if lt gen v k singh is jat by caste to say the least. He is i think from rajput regiment, and i am not sure what caste he belongs to. As far as i am concerned, the soldiers don't believe in caste they believe in regiments and color that their regiments carry. So, unless you are extremely sure, kindly don't raise such controversy.

the third question is the debate that was going on about lt gen v k singh's date of birth. It is a controversial issue. Several times officers when suddenly realizing that they might come up for promotion to the higher ranks, ask for the revision of age, claiming the poor records about age that were prevailing in our system. Where no one knew the exact date of birth of an individual. My objection to the revision of dob is, why at that stage? If one knows that his dob is wrong, one can correct it at the time of filling up of the 10th board examination forms. But then we want to take advantage of this "age" as it suits us. I don't know what is true and what is not. I am still optimistic that lt gen v k singh makes it to the coas. Coming on to the lt gen bhardwaj, well he is from one of the finest regiment of the indian army, the parachute regiment. He is decorated soldier and as qualified as lt gen v k singh is.

while it is not a good idea to supersede an officer at that stage or for that matter on any stage, except for the reasons of merit and competence, let us not raise the passions unless we see the writing on the wall in real sense.

i would wait and watch.

sir...i fully subscribe to your views...competence takes priority and moreover our perceptions cannot be validated unless we're sure as to what actually transpires at the highest levels, so we should not get involved in details of something which is vague to a common man. Amen!
 
You DONT have any idea of the level to which these "Bahmann" transpires !

Like Refugee they have been taught to speak politely even to your enemies...
( their famous quote : pata nahin , bhaiya naraz ho gaya )

seeing that even others are coming forward to ally with them....

Sharma - Verma Alliance
Sharma - Jangra (Khati )...inne to grahan he kar liya
namkaran
Jahan jiski chalein..uss gail mil le hain
they are uniting with Jats in Fauj only ..not elsewhere

Aurangzeb ne theek kara the..kashmir te to dande maar maar ke bhajaye the..

IN all educational institute of JATS you will see a Bahmann as PRINCIPAL...Khaoon piyoon..

Only reason..inke uper baithe hain..CBSE etc main..recognition dilaan main..
Arr ke JATA ki dhaal sookha tora na karte...Institution ke maalik ne to issa mitha bole ge ...yo to bus free main pingal ja se.

Emotional less kaum hain ye BAHMANN.



sir...i fully subscribe to your views...competence takes priority and moreover our perceptions cannot be validated unless we're sure as to what actually transpires at the highest levels, so we should not get involved in details of something which is vague to a common man. Amen!
 
A Small Addition

A small addition to what Col Tewatia & Col Malik have said earlier.

CASTE BASED REGIMENTS: We've been discussing caste based regimentation and segregation etc etc. Guys plse wake up, caste based regiments are based on scientific issues, plse realize Jats or Sikhs and Madrasis or Gorkhas can not have same eating habits. Main course for a South Indian, Rice, would be a pudding for a Jat or Sikh troop.
Do we expect them to learn each others languages when most of them are only 12th pass? (Earlier even less). Many more factors work behind this.
I'm from a Regiment which has Jats and Rajput troops and inspite of all similarities and hailing from North India they had different eating habits. A Jat would not be able to have the kind of spicy food which Rajpoots would be eating. So on and so forth.

Two guys sitting on some idiot channel, wearing three piece can not pass a judgement on Army's regimentation. You need to live and die with your soldiers to understand the traditions and regimentation of Forces.

Corruption : While admitting that corruption is there in all spheres of life , army being one of them, can I ask a simple question? We've all read and heard stories of corruption in Forces and Generals / Brigadiers being sent behind bars. How many of us have heard a Civil Servant being punished ? leave aside politicians. Now don't tell me that Forces have more corruption then Civil. Truth is that corrupt guys are caught and punished fast in forces (As Col Malik has mentioned) and hence highlighted by the 'Elites'
 
.

Capt Saab, You summed it really well in simple n' straight words. Hope it clears the dirt.

Cheers!

A small addition to what Col Tewatia & Col Malik have said earlier.

CASTE BASED REGIMENTS: We've been discussing caste based regimentation and segregation etc etc. Guys plse wake up, caste based regiments are based on scientific issues, plse realize Jats or Sikhs and Madrasis or Gorkhas can not have same eating habits. Main course for a South Indian, Rice, would be a pudding for a Jat or Sikh troop.
Do we expect them to learn each others languages when most of them are only 12th pass? (Earlier even less). Many more factors work behind this.
I'm from a Regiment which has Jats and Rajput troops and inspite of all similarities and hailing from North India they had different eating habits. A Jat would not be able to have the kind of spicy food which Rajpoots would be eating. So on and so forth.

Two guys sitting on some idiot channel, wearing three piece can not pass a judgement on Army's regimentation. You need to live and die with your soldiers to understand the traditions and regimentation of Forces.

Corruption : While admitting that corruption is there in all spheres of life , army being one of them, can I ask a simple question? We've all read and heard stories of corruption in Forces and Generals / Brigadiers being sent behind bars. How many of us have heard a Civil Servant being punished ? leave aside politicians. Now don't tell me that Forces have more corruption then Civil. Truth is that corrupt guys are caught and punished fast in forces (As Col Malik has mentioned) and hence highlighted by the 'Elites'
 
A small addition to what Col Tewatia & Col Malik have said earlier.

CASTE BASED REGIMENTS: We've been discussing caste based regimentation and segregation etc etc. Guys plse wake up, caste based regiments are based on scientific issues, plse realize Jats or Sikhs and Madrasis or Gorkhas can not have same eating habits. Main course for a South Indian, Rice, would be a pudding for a Jat or Sikh troop.
Do we expect them to learn each others languages when most of them are only 12th pass? (Earlier even less). Many more factors work behind this.
I'm from a Regiment which has Jats and Rajput troops and inspite of all similarities and hailing from North India they had different eating habits. A Jat would not be able to have the kind of spicy food which Rajpoots would be eating. So on and so forth.

Two guys sitting on some idiot channel, wearing three piece can not pass a judgement on Army's regimentation. You need to live and die with your soldiers to understand the traditions and regimentation of Forces.

Corruption : While admitting that corruption is there in all spheres of life , army being one of them, can I ask a simple question? We've all read and heard stories of corruption in Forces and Generals / Brigadiers being sent behind bars. How many of us have heard a Civil Servant being punished ? leave aside politicians. Now don't tell me that Forces have more corruption then Civil. Truth is that corrupt guys are caught and punished fast in forces (As Col Malik has mentioned) and hence highlighted by the 'Elites'


Well said sir ji. Hopefully after this jl fellow members will think before raising any question about our armed forces.
 
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