Lt Gen V K Singh superceded by BHARDWAJ as Vice Army Chief

[raj2rif]

Gen Kadyan's Case!!

Haan Kadyan ke mamle ko maine follow kiya tha as i am also kadyan, he got retired and no decision made in his case till his retirement.so sad .

Kitne jaat fauj mein hai kya koi jaat chief bana hai in recent history. Agar nahi toh There is Conspiracy for sure. Find this out.

Lt Gen Kadyan was my Col of the Regiment as well as my Corp Commander. I have had a lot of interaction with him. His elder brother lives in US and we have been meeting with each other very often.
Firstly, Lt Gen Kadyan was in line to become chief, for he was commissioned at a very young age, and got promoted in time. He is an excellent orator and had served on important Command and Staff assignment.
What I know is that while posted at France, in Brig's rank, he asked for one year extention of his tenure, which was granted. But then back home his coursemates, junior to him in IC number got promoted, By the time he came back, all of them have finished their command tenure of a division. Lt Gen Kadyan was given minimum mendatory time to fulfill his command tenure requirements, but yet missed the chance to become the Arm Commander. He had asked for the waiver of minimum time to be the Corp Cdr, but apparantly that was not granted. If Lt Gen Kadyan, had made it to Army Cdr, he would have definitely made it to Chief, and he would have been the first Chief from Jat Community. Obviously those who would not know the rules and regulations, will make it a Jat vs. Brahmin/any other caste case.

 

[kapdal]

Lt Gen Kadyan was my Col of the Regiment as well as my Corp Commander. I have had a lot of interaction with him. His elder brother lives in US and we have been meeting with each other very often.
Firstly, Lt Gen Kadyan was in line to become chief, for he was commissioned at a very young age, and got promoted in time. He is an excellent orator and had served on important Command and Staff assignment.
What I know is that while posted at France, in Brig's rank, he asked for one year extention of his tenure, which was granted. But then back home his coursemates, junior to him in IC number got promoted, By the time he came back, all of them have finished their command tenure of a division. Lt Gen Kadyan was given minimum mendatory time to fulfill his command tenure requirements, but yet missed the chance to become the Arm Commander. He had asked for the waiver of minimum time to be the Corp Cdr, but apparantly that was not granted. If Lt Gen Kadyan, had made it to Army Cdr, he would have definitely made it to Chief, and he would have been the first Chief from Jat Community. Obviously those who would not know the rules and regulations, will make it a Jat vs. Brahmin/any other caste case.

Thanks for the clarification, Sir.

Lt Gen Kadyan had also filed a case against his supercession and the HC judge Vijender Jain (Please note the name) had ruled in his favor. I am not sure why the order was not implemented (maybe GoI filed an appeal and the case got stuck in the judicial process). The full details of the case including the arguments given by both sides can be found here:

http://indiankanoon.org/doc/1997055/

The issue mentioned by Col Tevathia above finds clear mention in these archives. Even the Indian Ambassdor to French Embassy had written to the then defence chief that Lt General Kadyan (when he was Brigadier) had wanted to be posted back to India, but was held back in France because of official reasons (letter in the above link). There were also arguments given by GoI based on comparative internal reports of the Army for the 2 contenders. But the court had ruled in favor of Lt Col Kadyan as he was more senior and equally meritorious, if not more. Another point that those who raise the caste question here should note is that the person who superceded Lt. Gen Kadyan was Lt. Gen Kalkat, who was NOT a Brahmin but a Sikh (Jat Sikh? Not sure, but maybe).

If one goes through the details of the case, it is apparent that politics plays a role, as recommendations of both Army top brass and defence ministry become paramount. But what's surprising about it?- where ever human beings are there, politics is natural. It happens in the largest MNCs, religious institutions, universities, everywhere. But there is nothing to suggest that it is based on caste in the cases being highlighted on this thread.

 

[spdeshwal]

Colonel Saheb,

Thanks for your patience and wisdom that has guided this thread to a very meaningful debate! Although, the motive of the initiator of the debate was not to seek the truth and support for Gen.VK Singh but use the opportunity as a political propaganda tool. Nevertheless, your valuable contribution well supported by Kapil and Raviji has not only added value to the debate but brought out new and factual information as well.
Well done all!


Sateypal

 

[jagmohan]

Indeed...

Dear All,

I completely agree with Col Tavathia sir.

Lt Gen VK Singh is an Indian and a Soldier, who was born in a Rajput family and was commissioned in the RAJPUT Regiment. He is likely to become the Chie of Army Staff in Nov 2009. He has not been superseded yet. In any case an Army Commander is a much better appointment than that of the Vice Chief.

There is a requirement to understand the difference between Martial Race and Warrior Class. Martial means a person who is ready to pick up a fight at the drop of a hat, while a Warrior is one who is capable and will use his skills only when needed.

I don’t know why Fauj doesn’t attract good talent anymore but surely many young persons would have become really good Officers in the Armed Forces had they not joined the ‘Rat Race’ elsewhere.

I had read a joke here earlier: That one ‘Dantuaa’ (person with long protruding teeth) goes for ‘Bharti’ (recruitment). The Recruiting Officer tells him “Bhaj jya, aaj kal ‘Budkayn’ ki ladai na honti”.

Youngsters who join NDA are raw and just out of school. You must see the same cadets when they passout.

Best regards,

JS Malik

 

[ambijat]

The Caste Factor!

The second point is the controversy of JAT Vs BRAHMIN, that some members are raising. I don't know if Lt Gen V K Singh is Jat by caste to say the least. He is I think from Rajput Regiment, and I am not sure what caste he belongs to. As far as I am concerned, the soldiers don't believe in caste they believe in Regiments and Color that their regiments carry. So, unless you are extremely sure, kindly don't raise such controversy.

Lest my argument be misconstrued, I did not intend to raise any JAT v/s BRAHMIN contro. The simple pointer was to the Brahminism as one of the concerns in giving the top post. Just find out how many Brahmins have been Army Generals and you shall be able to find out they out number quite significantly even though the British did not make any Brahmin regiment. Bengali Brahmins were the first to join the British empire under Bengal native infantry the earliest of the forces.
I have no doubt over the qualities of Lt. Gen Bhardwaj. My simple submission is that where as it takes a world to pay an anna of effort for a JAT its takes a rupee worth of effort to get recognition.

And, why I make this claim is because I had been the Best NCC cadet of the STATE of RAJASTHAN in 1989 and excactly for these reasons I found myself disinclined to join the ARMY as Profession.

But, the destiny of being a JAT never left me, not even in academics!

 

[raj2rif]

I really don't know if things have Changed??

Lest my argument be misconstrued, I did not intend to raise any JAT v/s BRAHMIN contro. The simple pointer was to the Brahminism as one of the concerns in giving the top post. Just find out how many Brahmins have been Army Generals and you shall be able to find out they out number quite significantly even though the British did not make any Brahmin regiment. Bengali Brahmins were the first to join the British empire under Bengal native infantry the earliest of the forces.
I have no doubt over the qualities of Lt. Gen Bhardwaj. My simple submission is that where as it takes a world to pay an anna of effort for a JAT its takes a rupee worth of effort to get recognition.

And, why I make this claim is because I had been the Best NCC cadet of the STATE of RAJASTHAN in 1989 and excactly for these reasons I found myself disinclined to join the ARMY as Profession.

But, the destiny of being a JAT never left me, not even in academics!

Dear Mr. Dhaka,
I feel sorry for you missing on the selection process to IMA/OTS. I don't think in the army people discriminate against caste. Let me assure you there are a whole lot of Jat officers and if that had been the case, we would not have had so many officers from the Jat Community.
Being the best cadet in NCC is one thing and getting through the SSB is another. There are different selection criterias. Sometime one may be too brilliant for the job, and hence miss out on selection. Army takes a particular profile for selection, if you are above or below that you miss out. So, please don't feel that you missed out just because you happened to be JAT.
Now regarding Brahmin Units. The units on caste basis are for the troops. Officers don't get commissioned into the regiments on caste basis. Since more people from Jat, and Rajput communities join the military services (more often than not just after passing their high school) there was a requirement of more regiments for these communities. The Infantry in particular is organized on Class composition. There are some other arms units those are also organized on class composition, but mainly the two fighting arms who lead in the battle (infantry and tank units) are organized on class basis. People from other communities probably study more and get into the army in the technical arms and services. As far as officers are concerned, there are plenty of officers from the Brahmin Community. But as I have said earlier, there is no caste for an officer. You are normally not posted to the regiment where you have troops from your own community. May be officers belonging to other communities get posted to Jat Regiment, Grenadiers, Rajput Regiment and say Rajputana Rifles, Sikh Regiment or Gorkhas, and do well because of the fighting qualities (as most of us believe that they are superior in fighting qualities then our brothers of other communities) and hence shine more than the officers from the Jat community commanding not so better fighters (if that be a true thing to assume)
To me all it really does not matter as to which community a soldier belongs to. It is the training one gets and then applies in realy war that makes the difference. During Kargil War, my own Battalion won four MVC, three went to the officers and none of them was a Jat by caste. In fact as one officer refused to go into attack and was courtmartialled for that reason. You would be surprised to note that the officer belonged to our own community.
So, kindly let us not drag the men in uniform into the Caste War. We can do better without that.
I hope you get my point in right perspective.

 

[amritkharb]

This martial class is a con started by British only for Indians. I wonder if this martial class *** is prevalent in other countries?
Does claiming I belong to the martial class makes me a fighting man?

 

[ambijat]

Dear Mr. Dhaka,
I feel sorry for you missing on the selection process to IMA/OTS. I don't think in the army people discriminate against caste...Being the best cadet in NCC is one thing and getting through the SSB is another. There are different selection criterias.

I am sorry for your presumptions, but I have never appeared before these examinations, I changed my mind as early as in 10th class. I think to be a best NCC cadet for a junior wing is in no way a light thing (at that age) especially you are competing among no less than 30,000 boys and girls and 4 stages of screening running no less than 6 months. I had a particular incident which is very personal and I had come to such a conclusion. I intend not generalise it, But then...?

What about the case when Gen AS Vaidya was made COAS. Didn't a JAT General resign? If I remember his name correctly he was Mahendra Singh perhaps from western UP. I would certainly like to be proven false on this.

Rest what you have said can always be held upright for most of the times, but not always!

But as a fighter one should never forget to pay back in kind, I had my sweet revenge when I was invited to lecture at the National Defence College, New Delhi 2 years back. That day I felt myself in a better capacity than the ones who heard me for more than an hour.

 

[amanpoonia]

Dear Aman,

So, let us not spread the rumours, they are not good for the community.

Col Ji, just to clarify I have asked for your opinion on this issue as I have no idea about the army or its functioning. Plus I did mention in my post that "ye to sune sunaye baat hei, I have no idea abt the merit of the statement"

So I am not spreading any rumor rather clarifying the same saying heard by many of us !!

Aman

 

[raj2rif]

Re: Not you Aman

Col Ji, just to clarify I have asked for your opinion on this issue as I have no idea about the army or its functioning. Plus I did mention in my post that "ye to sune sunaye baat hei, I have no idea abt the merit of the statement"

So I am not spreading any rumor rather clarifying the same saying heard by many of us !!

Aman

Dear Aman,
I never meant that you are spreading the rumors, and if I did give that impression, then I extend my sincere apologies for that. As I had written in my post earlier, that is what many people who did not believe in hard work had said. When you tell such things to younger people (specially if they look up to you for guidance) then they believe it. It might be a very good idea to question those who suggest such things a little more to dig out the facts.

 

[dskadyan]

Main Issue wahi ka wahin hai?

I am having intuition that there is more Castism in Army. Because there nomenclature also support that. Aur yeh bhi sahi lag raha hai ki Jat ko CoAS nahi banaya gaya hai toh sirf uski jaat hone kie vajah se. ya phir there is always policy to keep them at lower level only.

So I would say that Dont Just Join for deshbhakti but rise over there. Main Motto should be Higher the:rock rank,higher the salary and most in lime light, but only positive way.

Aur Jaat ho Toh Jaat ko uthao.
Dont think you are spreading castism, its already there and working against us.

 

[ambijat]

Dear Col. Tevatia,
I think you got my argument on Brahmins a bit oblique.

Well! putting rest to all these speculations I can confidently say Army still has better credentials than the politicians or us as academicians when it comes to deliver society the goods in a caste unbiased manner.

 

[raj2rif]

The Facts are different

I am sorry for your presumptions, but I have never appeared before these examinations, I changed my mind as early as in 10th class. I think to be a best NCC cadet for a junior wing is in no way a light thing (at that age) especially you are competing among no less than 30,000 boys and girls and 4 stages of screening running no less than 6 months. I had a particular incident which is very personal and I had come to such a conclusion. I intend not generalise it, But then...?

What about the case when Gen AS Vaidya was made COAS. Didn't a JAT General resign? If I remember his name correctly he was Mahendra Singh perhaps from western UP. I would certainly like to be proven false on this.

Rest what you have said can always be held upright for most of the times, but not always!

But as a fighter one should never forget to pay back in kind, I had my sweet revenge when I was invited to lecture at the National Defence College, New Delhi 2 years back. That day I felt myself in a better capacity than the ones who heard me for more than an hour.

Dear Mr. Dhaka,
Firstly congratulations for delivering a speech at NDC. That is indeed a great honor. What I have not understood is why do you think it was a sweet revenge? What wrong did army establishement do to you. Let me confess, that being the Best Cadet for a State is no mean achievement. But if Army was biased against JATS then how come they selected as a Best Cadet? for the selection must have been done by army people only.
Actually, I joined army through NCC myself. I attended only one annual camp as a Seargent. However, our Senior Under Officer did not have a good word of command and our College was the seniormost college, so our SUO was to command the parade after the camp. My NCC officer asked me to give word of command, I did it, they liked it and made me SUO, then and there and I commanded the Parade. Let me tell you, they all knew that I was a JAT, and the cadet whom I replaced was also a JAT fellow.

Regarding Gen Vaidya's case. I don't remember if any Lt Gen Mohinder Singh resigned because of Gen Vaidya, for during my service I concentrated more on my soldiers rather than knowing about the senior officers (not a good thing by most people's opinion) All I know is Lt Gen Sinha was the one who was superseded and he was not JAT by caste. All of us entitled to our own opinion, but I am convinced that caste probably may be the last thing that comes into play in military promotions.

 

[ambijat]

What I have not understood is why do you think it was a sweet revenge?

I certainly would not ascribe that thing to Army as an institution, but I certainly had the grudge of being discriminated and insulted as a cadet. May be being a convent educated boy it was too much noticeable to me.
But, yes! there are matters of discrimination.
And, to wade through muddy waters and reclaim the honour indeed is a sweet experience enough.
Tks! I hope I can wind off the debate with that. Tks! for the patience.

 

[prashantacmet]

Dear Mr. Dhaka,
I feel sorry for you missing on the selection process to IMA/OTS. I don't think in the army people discriminate against caste. Let me assure you there are a whole lot of Jat officers and if that had been the case, we would not have had so many officers from the Jat Community.
Being the best cadet in NCC is one thing and getting through the SSB is another. There are different selection criterias. Sometime one may be too brilliant for the job, and hence miss out on selection. Army takes a particular profile for selection, if you are above or below that you miss out. So, please don't feel that you missed out just because you happened to be JAT.
Now regarding Brahmin Units. The units on caste basis are for the troops. Officers don't get commissioned into the regiments on caste basis. Since more people from Jat, and Rajput communities join the military services (more often than not just after passing their high school) there was a requirement of more regiments for these communities. The Infantry in particular is organized on Class composition. There are some other arms units those are also organized on class composition, but mainly the two fighting arms who lead in the battle (infantry and tank units) are organized on class basis. People from other communities probably study more and get into the army in the technical arms and services. As far as officers are concerned, there are plenty of officers from the Brahmin Community. But as I have said earlier, there is no caste for an officer. You are normally not posted to the regiment where you have troops from your own community. May be officers belonging to other communities get posted to Jat Regiment, Grenadiers, Rajput Regiment and say Rajputana Rifles, Sikh Regiment or Gorkhas, and do well because of the fighting qualities (as most of us believe that they are superior in fighting qualities then our brothers of other communities) and hence shine more than the officers from the Jat community commanding not so better fighters (if that be a true thing to assume)
To me all it really does not matter as to which community a soldier belongs to. It is the training one gets and then applies in realy war that makes the difference. During Kargil War, my own Battalion won four MVC, three went to the officers and none of them was a Jat by caste. In fact as one officer refused to go into attack and was courtmartialled for that reason. You would be surprised to note that the officer belonged to our own community.
So, kindly let us not drag the men in uniform into the Caste War. We can do better without that.
I hope you get my point in right perspective.

Being ignorant about a problem and start uttering coutless logics (merely logics not facts) to prove ur stand does n't necessary dilute the problem. Entire indian society, each private and goverment sectors, each profession, whether it is elite "indian army" or anyother, is prevailed by the "casteism" factor. And we all know who imposed this curse on us. If " Indian army" has nothing to do with "casteim" why we have regiments like "jat regiment", "rajputana" , "sikh regiment"?. Why one regiment of Indian army has the slogan like " jat balwaan jai bhagwaan"?

 

[jagmohan]

Being ignorant about a problem and start uttering coutless logics (merely logics not facts) to prove ur stand does n't necessary dilute the problem. Entire indian society, each private and goverment sectors, each profession, whether it is elite "indian army" or anyother, is prevailed by the "casteism" factor. And we all know who imposed this curse on us. If " Indian army" has nothing to do with "casteim" why we have regiments like "jat regiment", "rajputana" , "sikh regiment"?. Why one regiment of Indian army has the slogan like " jat balwaan jai bhagwaan"?

Dear friend,

I suggest you read a book, if you have the time; 'A Matter of Honour' by one Mr Philip Mason. How Indian Army evolved over a period of time is covered rather well. There are different ways of looking at things. If one looks at the Indian Army Regiments only from the angle of the caste, it would not be the right way.

JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN is the battle cry of the famous JAT Regiment. What this battle cry can de during war is worth exploring if you can read another book 'Battle of Barki' by Brig Hyde, MVC.

Best regards,

JS Malik

 

[prashantacmet]

Dear friend,

I suggest you read a book, if you have the time; 'A Matter of Honour' by one Mr Philip Mason. How Indian Army evolved over a period of time is covered rather well. There are different ways of looking at things. If one looks at the Indian Army Regiments only from the angle of the caste, it would not be the right way.

JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN is the battle cry of the famous JAT Regiment. What this battle cry can de during war is worth exploring if you can read another book 'Battle of Barki' by Brig Hyde, MVC.

Best regards,

JS Malik

I know how british befooled innocent jats and exploited them. Countless Jats soldiers laid down their life for british in World war I and II. Now in independent india if jats get a chance of recognition, they are pushed back in the rear of the queue and someone else is enthroned to rule them. Morever, it is irony that Educated jats shout , ""yes it was the right thing to do that . "someone else" deserved better "":rock:rock

 

[badgujarsampat]

Very apt words....it shows high characteristic quality of
the writer.

"
It is irony that Educated jats shout , ""yes it was the right thing to do that . "someone else" deserved better.

"

I know how british befooled innocent jats and exploited them. Countless Jats soldiers laid down their life for british in World war I and II. Now in independent india if jats get a chance of recognition, they are pushed back in the rear of the queue and someone else is enthroned to rule them. Morever, it is irony that Educated jats shout , ""yes it was the right thing to do that . "someone else" deserved better "":rock:rock

 

[ambijat]

The dibate digresses!

Sorry to intervene, but the core debate seems to have been let off.

There has been no raising finger on the Army's functioning at least at this frame of debate. The crux of the matter was that whenever it comes to appoint a head of an institution it has been seen that often a Jat ( unless and until he has a political clout) is often discounted among the top ranks.

This was confirmed in the appointments of the COAS from time to time. Nobody meant that ARMY in itself bred this kind of attitude, in fact blame was on the political parties especially the Congress led regimes which had done this in the past.

I repeat the blame was on the party in rule not on the ARMY as often interpreted by the retired gentleman from the forces who had taken the cudgels on the behalf of the political system not for the ARMY as the COAS are appointed by the politicians and not by the ARMY.

And let me put a very strong preposition that "there has been some arrest in the degeneration of the functioning of armed forces after the Kargil War." I dont want to thank the enemy for this, but we often have swallow the bitter pill.

 

[amritkharb]

I know how british befooled innocent jats and exploited them. Countless Jats soldiers laid down their life for british in World war I and II. Now in independent india if jats get a chance of recognition, they are pushed back in the rear of the queue and someone else is enthroned to rule them. Morever, it is irony that Educated jats shout , ""yes it was the right thing to do that . "someone else" deserved better "":rock:rock

Agreed bro, Jats are treated as second class citizens subject to bias, prejudice and degradation by other Indians. North India ki area mein refugees, punjabi, baniya raj hae. Jats ko bus conductor, sipahi ke haisyat se jana jaata hae. I have never heard baniya, refugee showing deshbhakti for hindustan as much as the jat kaum. But baniya, refugee is ruling. Yahaan bhi aisa hae hae. Even Jats love for jats bhi dikhawe ke liye hae.