leaders or Managers?

[anilsinghd]

If everyone has the vision and the know-how of what they "need" and what is best for the common good , then we do not need leaders at all.

Did you miss the IF Samar?

 

[aryasatyadev]

Samar , I kind og disagree that political leadership has to yield in long term to the followers.

If everyone has the vision and the know-how of what they "need" and what is best for the common good , then we do not need leaders at all.


A political leader and very much needed in Indian context must have a longer term vision with a short term capability to sell his "seemingly against the common good" ideas.
Difficult but nothing is easy in life!

I am a subsciber to Inspiration Peak.com which sends me the nice quotes everyday, some days before I received a quote and I am producing that here “It takes someone who can see the invisible to do the impossible.” In my opinion the quote was referencing to “vision”—the ability to "see" an idea or plan for the future. It also suggests the possibility of being able to predict the future.

In any case, vision is often listed as a desirable characteristic for a leader, and I do not disagree. I happen to think that the best leaders have a vision of where they want to take themselves and their organization. However, being a visionary does not necessarily make you a great leader. History is filled with many visionary characters that were often viewed as crackpots and only hindsight has proven them correct.

A great leader is not only a visionary, but also has the ability to make the vision “real” for others. They also know whether the timing is right for their vision and whether the environment they are in is capable of embracing it. There is nothing worse than trying to spread your vision to a constituency that doesn’t get it; gets it but doesn’t want it; or wants it, but there are other more powerful forces at work that do not allow for success
So if great leaders have vision and visionaries are not necessarily great leaders, can one be a good leader without vision? In that case my answer is yes. Military is an example of it, but this is also applicable to all occupations. I am sure over the thousands of years that the human race has engaged in organized armed conflict there have been many soldiers who led men in combat but did not share the same “vision” as their government or higher commanders, yet were determined to keep their men alive and were skillful in doing so. These officers and non-commissioned officers would be described as good leaders by their men, yet the extent of their vision may have been mere survival.

 

[aryasatyadev]

Managers are made, leaders are born.

A little diffrence on this issue bro.....
In my opinion, no one is born a leader, just as no one is born a talented artist. But you can be born with the underlying traits that make you a potential artist given the right stimulus and environment. Similarly, exploratory, rebellious characters could become criminals rather than leaders depending on circumstances, so it is the potential you are born with, not full scale leadership. This view has huge implications for leadership development - it means we can develop managers or executives or influencing skills, but not the fundamental drive to be a leader.
The key is the conditions for leadership to emerge informally and spontaneously throughout the organization

 

[aryasatyadev]

Now is leadership about the vision of a single person and forcement of his vision to people or followers(like hitler)? Or does the leader's vision creates the followers and followers follows the vision not leader?
Or is the leadership all about belonging to a leader ancesstors( as we have in India)?

Isn't leadership is about getting someone to do what they don't want to do, but to achieve what they want to achieve.

I hope the queries are answered...

 

[samarkadian]

A little diffrence on this issue bro.....
In my opinion, no one is born a leader, just as no one is born a talented artist. But you can be born with the underlying traits that make you a potential artist given the right stimulus and environment. Similarly, exploratory, rebellious characters could become criminals rather than leaders depending on circumstances, so it is the potential you are born with, not full scale leadership. This view has huge implications for leadership development - it means we can develop managers or executives or influencing skills, but not the fundamental drive to be a leader. The key is the conditions for leadership to emerge informally and spontaneously throughout the organization

Mozart, Lata Mangeskar, KL Sehgal and many more were artists.

You are contradicting yourself here and proving my point right about born-leadership. Reframe it with examples.

I am a subsciber to Inspiration Peak.com which sends me the nice quotes everyday, some days before I received a quote and I am producing that here “It takes someone who can see the invisible to do the impossible.” In my opinion the quote was referencing to “vision”—the ability to "see" an idea or plan for the future. It also suggests the possibility of being able to predict the future.

In any case, vision is often listed as a desirable characteristic for a leader, and I do not disagree. I happen to think that the best leaders have a vision of where they want to take themselves and their organization. However, being a visionary does not necessarily make you a great leader. History is filled with many visionary characters that were often viewed as crackpots and only hindsight has proven them correct.

A great leader is not only a visionary, but also has the ability to make the vision “real” for others. They also know whether the timing is right for their vision and whether the environment they are in is capable of embracing it. There is nothing worse than trying to spread your vision to a constituency that doesn’t get it; gets it but doesn’t want it; or wants it, but there are other more powerful forces at work that do not allow for success
So if great leaders have vision and visionaries are not necessarily great leaders, can one be a good leader without vision? In that case my answer is yes. Military is an example of it, but this is also applicable to all occupations. I am sure over the thousands of years that the human race has engaged in organized armed conflict there have been many soldiers who led men in combat but did not share the same “vision” as their government or higher commanders, yet were determined to keep their men alive and were skillful in doing so. These officers and non-commissioned officers would be described as good leaders by their men, yet the extent of their vision may have been mere survival.

Examplify please from the heap of history files.


Military is not leadership directly , more about following discipline and documented rule and order.

Vision makes a MASS LEADER. Good leader as a concept is too vague.

Survival is the motive behind all our behaviour under evolutionary process. Survival of any Vision is the motivation behind a mass leader's behaviour and action. Its not MERE, It is all subconcious and 100%.

Did you miss the IF Samar?

Yes I did but it doesnt change the absurdity of non-utilitarian concept of 'all-having-vision-hence-noone-is -leader.

 

[aryasatyadev]

Mozart, Lata Mangeskar, KL Sehgal and many more were artists.

You are contradicting yourself here and proving my point right about born-leadership. Reframe it with examples.

Examplify please from the heap of history files.


Military is not leadership directly , more about following discipline and documented rule and order.

Vision makes a MASS LEADER. Good leader as a concept is too vague.

Survival is the motive behind all our behaviour under evolutionary process. Survival of any Vision is the motivation behind a mass leader's behaviour and action. Its not MERE, It is all subconcious and 100%.

Here I am examplfying from the heap of history files as you had termed the material available........

Grandma Moses --> painting career began in her seventies after abandoning a career in embroidery because of arthritis.
Bill Traylor --> started drawing at age 83.
Alfred Wallis --> began painting after his wife's death in his 60s
Danny Aiello --> did not begin acting until he was 40.
Peg Phillips --> first pursued acting as a professional after her retirement from accounting.
Richard Farnsworth --> became an actor after 40 years as a stunt man, Rodney Dangerfield --> didn't really start until he was 42.

Now some people who are not artists but were great:
Joshua Millner --> of Britain was 61 when he won his Olympic gold medal in Free rifle, 1000 yards
Oscar SwahnSwedish marksman --> won two Olympic gold medals in the running deer, single shot event at the age of 60. He won his last medal, silver, at 72 making him the oldest medalist

Now the Politics
Václav Havel, born in 1936, was a playwright and writer with an interest in human rights. He became the voice of the opposition in Czechoslovakia in the 1980s and President of Czechoslovakia at age 53 after the collapse of the communist regime in 1989.
Ronald Reagan, a former actor, was first elected to public office at 55 when he became Governor of California and remains the oldest man to have served as U.S. President

These were great artists and leaders who were not born to lead or sing or write or play but they aquired the necessary qualities.........

As far Lata and Mozart they started there career in early age because the environment in which they are being raised was condusive to such development, but for KL Sehgal, I think he was the son of a Tehsildar and used to sell Remington typewriters till the age of 28...

On the front of Military not having leadership, I would like to say that in my opinion (I may be wrong) leadership is seen in everyone ranging from a shepherd herding his flock of sheep to the greats like Gandhi, Guevara, Lenin, Eisenhower to name a few rather glaring personalities in history.
leadership is not a quality which can be instilled in you since birth...
CIRCUMSTANCES maketh a leader....
if "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi" wasnt pushed off a train, he would never have thought of leaving his legal practice in Africa and coming back to India and most probabily would not had been recognised as the bapu of anyone but his 4 children.
extreme political distress and the burning need for social reform forges steel minds like guevara, lenin, bhagat singh, azad, etc.
Now, lets take the example, of Late JRD tata, he was termed as visionary in Hotel industry, the reason why he became great was because he was thrown out of the british hotel in Bombay and thought that he should construct his own hotel..... is that vision.... no, but still he was the leader......

 

[samarkadian]

Here I am examplfying from the heap of history files as you had termed the material available........

Grandma Moses --> painting career began in her seventies after abandoning a career in embroidery because of arthritis.
Bill Traylor --> started drawing at age 83.
Alfred Wallis --> began painting after his wife's death in his 60s
Danny Aiello --> did not begin acting until he was 40.
Peg Phillips --> first pursued acting as a professional after her retirement from accounting.
Richard Farnsworth --> became an actor after 40 years as a stunt man, Rodney Dangerfield --> didn't really start until he was 42.

Now some people who are not artists but were great:
Joshua Millner --> of Britain was 61 when he won his Olympic gold medal in Free rifle, 1000 yards
Oscar SwahnSwedish marksman --> won two Olympic gold medals in the running deer, single shot event at the age of 60. He won his last medal, silver, at 72 making him the oldest medalist

Now the Politics
Václav Havel, born in 1936, was a playwright and writer with an interest in human rights. He became the voice of the opposition in Czechoslovakia in the 1980s and President of Czechoslovakia at age 53 after the collapse of the communist regime in 1989.
Ronald Reagan, a former actor, was first elected to public office at 55 when he became Governor of California and remains the oldest man to have served as U.S. President

These were great artists and leaders who were not born to lead or sing or write or play but they aquired the necessary qualities.........

As far Lata and Mozart they started there career in early age because the environment in which they are being raised was condusive to such development, but for KL Sehgal, I think he was the son of a Tehsildar and used to sell Remington typewriters till the age of 28...

On the front of Military not having leadership, I would like to say that in my opinion (I may be wrong) leadership is seen in everyone ranging from a shepherd herding his flock of sheep to the greats like Gandhi, Guevara, Lenin, Eisenhower to name a few rather glaring personalities in history.
leadership is not a quality which can be instilled in you since birth...
CIRCUMSTANCES maketh a leader....
if "Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi" wasnt pushed off a train, he would never have thought of leaving his legal practice in Africa and coming back to India and most probabily would not had been recognised as the bapu of anyone but his 4 children.
extreme political distress and the burning need for social reform forges steel minds like guevara, lenin, bhagat singh, azad, etc.
Now, lets take the example, of Late JRD tata, he was termed as visionary in Hotel industry, the reason why he became great was because he was thrown out of the british hotel in Bombay and thought that he should construct his own hotel..... is that vision.... no, but still he was the leader......

Good Arya Sahab , Lets look at them one by one. Artists which you have mentioned in your reply are the ones who did it with acquired skills not in -born. Its like same a person is working with an organisation and after years of loyality and his average understanding of work process, he has been made a manager but again on acquired skills. So its equalise that acquired skills to the making of a manager. While KL Shegal was 'gifted' naturaly with the kind of voice non one yet ever had. It doesnt matter what he did up to the age of 28.

Yes, you are right there are only FEW and RARE who were mass leader which was natural to them. They didnt acquire it. So their level would be always higher than what you termed as great.

Now coming to Mohandas K Ghandi's point. Infinite number of people had been insulted by Britishers In India While MK was done to this in South Africa. He FORESAW it while others didnt. His agitation against British in SA was a dress reharsal for India. Why only Ghandi encashed his insult out of millions?

As far as JRD is concerned, motivation may have been again the British insult but why was he alone motivated ? He envisioned his success in a virgin field. His behaviour to erect the prestigious hotel all over Indian land cant be termed as unvisionary from business point of view.

 

[anilsinghd]

Yes I did but it doesnt change the absurdity of non-utilitarian concept of 'all-having-vision-hence-noone-is -leader.

Ohh , completely agree with the concept!


Just that I was always with the concept.

 

[aryasatyadev]

Good Arya Sahab , Lets look at them one by one. Artists which you have mentioned in your reply are the ones who did it with acquired skills not in -born. Its like same a person is working with an organisation and after years of loyality and his average understanding of work process, he has been made a manager but again on acquired skills. So its equalise that acquired skills to the making of a manager. While KL Shegal was 'gifted' naturaly with the kind of voice non one yet ever had. It doesnt matter what he did up to the age of 28.

Yes, you are right there are only FEW and RARE who were mass leader which was natural to them. They didnt acquire it. So their level would be always higher than what you termed as great.

Now coming to Mohandas K Ghandi's point. Infinite number of people had been insulted by Britishers In India While MK was done to this in South Africa. He FORESAW it while others didnt. His agitation against British in SA was a dress reharsal for India. Why only Ghandi encashed his insult out of millions?

As far as JRD is concerned, motivation may have been again the British insult but why was he alone motivated ? He envisioned his success in a virgin field. His behaviour to erect the prestigious hotel all over Indian land cant be termed as unvisionary from business point of view.

Samar Sahab, this is a non ending process.........
On a lighter note...... Pls go throght the book "Gangland Democracy" by MK Dhar and see how a leader can be made out of nothing.......