narenderkharb
Active member
Agre here. 1,2,3 and 7 are only valid points and collection of ten rupees was just a nonsense idea that harmed the very cause for which it was intented.
12 points by MahaPanchayat - How much you agree?
- Thread starter hemanthooda
- Start date
Agre here. 1,2,3 and 7 are only valid points and collection of ten rupees was just a nonsense idea that harmed the very cause for which it was intented.
ravichaudhary
New member
sunillathwal
New member
Here is article in The Hindu by the enlightened Jagmati Sangwan.
http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article424506.ece?homepage=true
Jagmati Sangwan's Article in 'The Hindu'
A disinterested and objective assessment transpires that except for the following two counts, which seem to be factually misrepresented, the article is worth reading. Thanks for sharing it.
A disinterested and objective assessment transpires that except for the following two counts, which seem to be factually misrepresented, the article is worth reading. Thanks for sharing it.
The above para is factually incorrect and a travesty of truth. Hence a blatant misrepresentation.
Inspite of the information being factually correct, she has deliberately attempted to hide the other side of the story i.e. provocation from the other caste. Hence, politically motivated with an eye on Dalit support to her activities which is an old rhetoric indulged in by all politically motivated people.
Last edited:
Khap panchayats get support from Congress MP
In a letter to Khap representatives, Jindal, who is also an industrialist, acknowledged the existence of these panchayats since the time of great rulers like Ashoka and Harshvardhan and said these Panchayats had always given a “new direction” to the society
“I and my family have always respected the society's traditions, customs, beliefs and culture,” he said in his letter, extending full support to the Khaps within the ambit of the law of the land.
http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/10/stories/2010051056361000.htm
In a letter to Khap representatives, Jindal, who is also an industrialist, acknowledged the existence of these panchayats since the time of great rulers like Ashoka and Harshvardhan and said these Panchayats had always given a “new direction” to the society
“I and my family have always respected the society's traditions, customs, beliefs and culture,” he said in his letter, extending full support to the Khaps within the ambit of the law of the land.
http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/10/stories/2010051056361000.htm
Raviji,
I have read several of your posts challenging the current "Indian Law", and talking about the so-called "Jat Law". I consider this as a dangerous argument. There is only one sovereign in a nation-state and only its law has legal sanction. And that is the way it should be. India is an ancient society and Jats are not unique in having their own customs. Several castes, cultures, religions and regions would have their historical customs (or law as you put it). Just as an example, what if erstwhile Rajputana members start fighting for Sati that was a predominant custom in the region, yet banned by the current Indian law? What about fundamentalist Islamic groups within India who consider Sharia as the final law and justify various crimes citing that? And just to be clear, my argument is not to compare the Jat custom being debated here to the other cases I have cited. I just want to point out that there can only be one sovereign and one law and I hope no one here is challenging that.
There have been several instances of laws being perceived as unjust by sections of the society. But the alternative is not to promulgate your own law. One has to work within the realm of the current law. Get it changed if you feel so short-changed by it. Personally, I don't understand the huge focus on this issue. This is not our biggest problem, is it? Social customs are enforced through social sanctions, not through brute force or laws. If the current custom is surviving merely because of brute force, then god help it.
I reproduce below my post from another thread as this thread is more frequented by the members. Mods may like to have it removed from the other thread if they so wish.
Do you think we need all our customs to be encapsulated in the statue books. Aren’t we meticulously following so many traditions and rituals without any prescription in the rule-books. In every epoch there have been exceptions drifting away from social prescriptions. Did our ancestors ever approach the rulers for enforcement of their customs with state machinery? Is there a mass exodus of young people from the community to ride on the bandwagon of same-gotra marriage? Is just one exception in the recent history a danger signal to our customs which has been haunting us, the brave people? Are our customs too fragile to be requiring legal bounds and State protection? If you think there will be more and more same-gotra marriages on large scale, it is just an hypothesis and unfounded presumption. Have the rule-books been able to deter the 'brain-washed terrorists' from their heinous acts of violence. Ultimately, it is an ideology which prevails upon their psyche and not any rule book. It is easy to find loopholes in the rules and it may not prove to be very efficient tool for making people to observe their traditions.
Our society has been proscribing and ostracizing those dissidents who were found to be indulging in the irresponsible acts of skirting the bounds of civility and societal norms and that has been the best deterrent so far. But the decisions of our ancestors used to be born out of natural and conventional wisdom, fearless and free from any bias and political shades. They were more fair and judicious. We need to revive and preserve that spirit rather than knocking at the doors of law-makers who know little about our traditions. I see a lot of degeneration in the leadership and their style of functioning.
In my assessment, 99% Jats are still meticulously following their traditions on their own, without any social pressure or fear of any leadership and I do not think they need any prescriptions from any rule-book or any leader. Also, they do not seem to be emulating the example of 1% dissidents.
Do you think we need all our customs to be encapsulated in the statue books. Aren’t we meticulously following so many traditions and rituals without any prescription in the rule-books. In every epoch there have been exceptions drifting away from social prescriptions. Did our ancestors ever approach the rulers for enforcement of their customs with state machinery? Is there a mass exodus of young people from the community to ride on the bandwagon of same-gotra marriage? Is just one exception in the recent history a danger signal to our customs which has been haunting us, the brave people? Are our customs too fragile to be requiring legal bounds and State protection? If you think there will be more and more same-gotra marriages on large scale, it is just an hypothesis and unfounded presumption. Have the rule-books been able to deter the 'brain-washed terrorists' from their heinous acts of violence. Ultimately, it is an ideology which prevails upon their psyche and not any rule book. It is easy to find loopholes in the rules and it may not prove to be very efficient tool for making people to observe their traditions.
Our society has been proscribing and ostracizing those dissidents who were found to be indulging in the irresponsible acts of skirting the bounds of civility and societal norms and that has been the best deterrent so far. But the decisions of our ancestors used to be born out of natural and conventional wisdom, fearless and free from any bias and political shades. They were more fair and judicious. We need to revive and preserve that spirit rather than knocking at the doors of law-makers who know little about our traditions. I see a lot of degeneration in the leadership and their style of functioning.
In my assessment, 99% Jats are still meticulously following their traditions on their own, without any social pressure or fear of any leadership and I do not think they need any prescriptions from any rule-book or any leader. Also, they do not seem to be emulating the example of 1% dissidents.
rakeshsehrawat
New member
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rts-to-police-station/articleshow/5910378.cms
Police ke dande aage bhoot bhi nache.
Police ke dande aage bhoot bhi nache.
sunillathwal
New member
.....and some more bad press (international).
Another skewed interpretation of khap.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/19-
jawed-naqvi-can-a-hysterical-mob-be-an-effective-foil-to-the-suicide-bomber-050-hh-02
Curiously, in this article khap diktats (death warrants) are told to be connected to inter-caste marriages. No mention of inter-gotra or intra-villages marriages which I believe is the domain where khaps are actively (directly or indirectly) involved.
Needless to say, dalits are still considered sub-humans by some upper-caste people and there is some prejudices. But is it only khaps?
and somehow khaps are being made synonym to Jats (or at best to upper castes); no one is mentioning the 'sarv-khap' (which i believe stands for all castes inclusive). What is their role or their constituents?
So, in essence, Media is evolving khaps from 'intra-villages/inter-gotra marriage opposer' to 'barbric oppressors of dalits'.
I think it is the latest fashion in media circles!!
Another surprising thing for me is the way village panchayats are being kept out of all this drama of apparent 'dalit-bashing and honor killings'. I hardly see any difference between the 'thinking/working/menatlity/' of panchayats and Khaps. Yet, somehow khap are facing the wrath of media!!
====================
Another interesting read regarding honor killings and khaps or oor (as they are known in TamilNadu)
http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/Readers-Editor/article409862.ece
Another skewed interpretation of khap.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/19-
jawed-naqvi-can-a-hysterical-mob-be-an-effective-foil-to-the-suicide-bomber-050-hh-02
Curiously, in this article khap diktats (death warrants) are told to be connected to inter-caste marriages. No mention of inter-gotra or intra-villages marriages which I believe is the domain where khaps are actively (directly or indirectly) involved.
Needless to say, dalits are still considered sub-humans by some upper-caste people and there is some prejudices. But is it only khaps?
and somehow khaps are being made synonym to Jats (or at best to upper castes); no one is mentioning the 'sarv-khap' (which i believe stands for all castes inclusive). What is their role or their constituents?
So, in essence, Media is evolving khaps from 'intra-villages/inter-gotra marriage opposer' to 'barbric oppressors of dalits'.
I think it is the latest fashion in media circles!!
Another surprising thing for me is the way village panchayats are being kept out of all this drama of apparent 'dalit-bashing and honor killings'. I hardly see any difference between the 'thinking/working/menatlity/' of panchayats and Khaps. Yet, somehow khap are facing the wrath of media!!
====================
Another interesting read regarding honor killings and khaps or oor (as they are known in TamilNadu)
http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/Readers-Editor/article409862.ece
Last edited:
ravichaudhary
New member
Pardah system posts moved to new thread
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?29920-Pardah-system-in-rural-India
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?29920-Pardah-system-in-rural-India
Last edited:
Sorry if this is already posted,
Om Prakash Chautala meets Chidambaram over Gotra issue
On Jagmati Sangwan and her article, got this from a blog,
Selective battles
Om Prakash Chautala meets Chidambaram over Gotra issue
On Jagmati Sangwan and her article, got this from a blog,
Selective battles
ravichaudhary
New member
This is the whole point.:
What we have is state machinery, interfering.
“the jats are asking for NON INTERFERENCE by the State Machinery.”
Ravi Chaudhary
It is vice-versa. We are seeking State interference in our customs through amendment in Hindu Marriage Act . This is an alarmist approach to the extent of being paranoid. Majority of Jats are poor farmers living in villages in miserable conditions reeling under debt on their head. They are more concerned with the issues of poverty alleviation, better education for their wards, their employment, marriage of their daughters, abolition of dowry system, electricity, roads, remunerative prices for their produce etc. They are very little worried about the same gotra marriage as they have faith in their children. Therefore, this issue is secondary to them which can be dealt with once their basic problems are properly addressed to. Unfortunately, the economically better placed and well settled sections of Jat Society do not seem to be showing any concern for their basic issues. They tend to side-step these serious issues as such issues do not offer any spicy/juicy gossip on village chaupal. Such issues require some sacrifice for which they are seldom prepared. They are more concerned about their leadership. Usually, these leaders consist of the "Angochchadhari Kurta Pajama clad" college drop outs, flop advocates and retired government servants who need some activities for pastime and also a platform to carve out some political stature for themselves. Now, some of them can be seen hobnobbing with politicians of different shades hijacking the agenda of amendment in Hindu Marriage Act from the hands of the conventional Khap leaders, in order to carve a niche for themselves irrespective of the political ideology.
Last edited:
ravichaudhary
New member
The Hindu Marriage Act was created in 1955.
Prior to that there is no Statutory Act to govern Jat marriage customs.
The Hindu Marriage Act was an instance of the State interfering with Jat customs( since 1955)
The real question the is do you wish to be governed by the Hindu Marriage Act or not?
Ravi Chaudhary
Prior to that there is no Statutory Act to govern Jat marriage customs.
The Hindu Marriage Act was an instance of the State interfering with Jat customs( since 1955)
The real question the is do you wish to be governed by the Hindu Marriage Act or not?
Ravi Chaudhary
Ravi ji,
Frankly speaking, I never felt the necessity of this Book named Hindu Marriage Act. In fact, majority of poor Kisans have no idea of this Act and the marriages in our society are solemnized without referring to this holy book. Poor people like us go by our well-established Jat traditions. May be in property disputes and for restitution of conjugal rights it has some relevance.
Last edited:
Demand of amendment in Hindu Marriage Act for Jats is like inviting the State to interfere in our Jat customs and traditions. We are already following our customs and traditions precisely except .00000000000001 % of Jat people violeting it. I don't think that we need any interference from the State by imposing some constitutional laws on our marriage customs.
Morever, asking for the amendment reminds me the mistake done by Nehru when he took the Kashmir issue in the UN Assembly inspite of the fact that we already occupied the whole Kashmir and our forces were into the Pakistan territory.
खता लम्हों की की हमने
सजा सदियों की पायी है |
We should learn from our mistakes.
Morever, asking for the amendment reminds me the mistake done by Nehru when he took the Kashmir issue in the UN Assembly inspite of the fact that we already occupied the whole Kashmir and our forces were into the Pakistan territory.
खता लम्हों की की हमने
सजा सदियों की पायी है |
We should learn from our mistakes.
Last edited:
sanjaymalik
New member
We are not advocating all customs to be encapsuled in statute books, violation of those which endangered our social norms, our social stucture must need to be incorporate in statute books for preservance and protection being violated by the so called leberal progressing youths who proclaimed to be modern. Once incorparated in Act prove to be deterance.
If no codified law is require then why this legislation stands for, in fact peoples not follow laws until and unless have sanction form the Govt.if there is no fear from law or from state then such incidence will be more and more.
this judgement will bust up the confidene of these lovers within same gotra or same village. Today its a single case but tomarroww there will more Manoj and Babli or whether we need to wait when there will be mass exode for the same.
if our ancestor have had so much forseeability then they would had demand for the same.Like our custom " odhna udai or chunni udhoi" i.e marraige of widow with brother of deceased husband have been duly recognised by the law maker at that time.
So uncle ji state interference is required for the same.
Last edited:
ravichaudhary
New member
Another of your lucid and wide ranging posts, which make it such a pleasure to come across.
I am in agreement with the ‘danger’.
I am against too much legislation on socials mores. The state should not be interfering in personal lives of people.
Legislation has a way of codifying the matter, and making it inflexible.
On Sharia- Jammu and Kashmir, already has Sharia Courts. The UCC does not apply to Muslims.
Some Jats may be forgiven for asking themselves, are they the only ones, who are asked to sacrifice?
Who should be the final arbiter on Marriage customs- the community or the statute?
If the Indian parliament , (Hindu marriage Act 1955 )can accept South Indian practices of first cousin marriage, It can accept that Jats do not marry into the same blood line.
That is where the Hindu Marriage Act fails, it sanctifies marriage within the same blood line. Then in asking for a change, for a clarification so out of place?
Ravi Chaudhary
Last edited:
ravichaudhary
New member
The fact is that increasingly , a marriage must be registered.
The old days are going.
In the Jats, the affiliation is to Hinduism, and therefore the HIndu Marriage Act appllies.
There is problem ( poor kisan is a good example, who does not know about the ACT).
The probelm arises, when the poor Kisan who did not know about the Act, gets blindsided by the effect of the Act.
At that point, the 'poor' kisan is in conflict with the act, and we will hear cries,( as we do now) of how the Kisan, is no longer a poor Kisan, but a rabid fundamentalist, compared to the Islamic Taliban, who positively come across as choir boys.
Ravi
Last edited:
What is most surprising to me is that khap leaders who are asking for amendment have not presented any data. Shouldn't there be some data presented on how many such inter gotra marriages are happening among jats. Just because there happened to be a case where law did not accepted the punishment meted out by panchyats, khaps have started asking for change in law, is not something digestable.