Taboo Topic: Same sex relationships in Jats.

[vdhillon]

CATION:
1. MATURE NON-JUDGEMENTAL ABOVE 18yrs AUDIENCE ONLY, If you are underage, or are offended by so-called taboo topics of same-sex marriage, same gotra marriage, etc. PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW.

2. THIS THREAD IS STRICTLY FOR CONSTRUCTIVE, NON-JUDGEMENTAL DISCUSSION.

3. STRICTLY NO BASHING OF GAYS (GLBT) and

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Same sex relationships, do exist in jat community, rarely talked about and certainly judged as taboo, sexual deviants, perverts, social pariahs, suffering from mental disorder, etc. This is despite, Hinduism (a religion of majority Jat members of this site) immortalizing, eulogizing, promoting, accepting, practicing same-sex relationships as evident from temples of Ajanta and Ellora as well as multiple references in Kamasutra as to how to have those relationships, also many Hindu holyy text books have references to them 'mahabharata' jaidrath (or someone jo adha nar aur adha nari tha).

Taking a long-term view of history, Hindu and Jat samaj was not against GBLT relaitonships. After British colonialism, Victorian values were imposed on ruled Indian masses, those values included laws making same sex relationships an offence.

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. Eerlier psychologist and non-Hindu theologists defined GBLT as perversion and mental disorder. Latest scientific research proves that gayism is all enshrined in genes and determined at embryonic stage. They are ass natural as we are. Let us not discriminate people who (up to 5% of general population) are born with this gene. We can not change the science, we must accept them, However, social dogma and negative attitude towards GBLT exist, which needs to be changed via awareness.

It is time to shun the taboo and dogmatic attitude about such relationships and go back to vedic era of acceptance.

Before, proceeding further, watch these videos:

1. National Geographic explains the biology of homosexuality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saO_RFWWVVA

2. Also worth perusing is wiki "LGBT topics and Hinduism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Hinduism
PS: For the record, I am a hetro guy who is highly pro-gay. If my offsprings turn out to be gay, I will still accept, love, be proud and supportive of them just the same without any dogma or stigma associated. I have GBLT friends and have worked for highly professional and competent openly-gay boss.

Now, lets discuss this within the specific context of Jat Samaj.

Thanks

 

[prashantacmet]

CATION:
1. MATURE NON-JUDGEMENTAL ABOVE 18yrs AUDIENCE ONLY, If you are underage, or are offended by so-called taboo topics of same-sex marriage, same gotra marriage, etc. PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW.

2. THIS THREAD IS STRICTLY FOR CONSTRUCTIVE, NON-JUDGEMENTAL DISCUSSION.

3. STRICTLY NO BASHING OF GAYS (GLBT) and

------------------------------------------------------------------

Same sex relationships, do exist in jat community, rarely talked about and certainly judged as taboo, sexual deviants, perverts, social pariahs, suffering from mental disorder, etc. This is despite, Hinduism (a religion of majority Jat members of this site) immortalizing, eulogizing, promoting, accepting, practicing same-sex relationships as evident from temples of Ajanta and Ellora as well as multiple references in Kamasutra as to how to have those relationships, also many Hindu holyy text books have references to them 'mahabharata' jaidrath (or someone jo adha nar aur adha nari tha).

Taking a long-term view of history, Hindu and Jat samaj was not against GBLT relaitonships. After British colonialism, Victorian values were imposed on ruled Indian masses, those values included laws making same sex relationships an offence.

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. Eerlier psychologist and non-Hindu theologists defined GBLT as perversion and mental disorder. Latest scientific research proves that gayism is all enshrined in genes and determined at embryonic stage. They are ass natural as we are. Let us not discriminate people who (up to 5% of general population) are born with this gene. We can not change the science, we must accept them, However, social dogma and negative attitude towards GBLT exist, which needs to be changed via awareness.

It is time to shun the taboo and dogmatic attitude about such relationships and go back to vedic era of acceptance.

Before, proceeding further, watch these videos:

1. National Geographic explains the biology of homosexuality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saO_RFWWVVA

2. Also worth perusing is wiki "LGBT topics and Hinduism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Hinduism
PS: For the record, I am a hetro guy who is highly pro-gay. If my offsprings turn out to be gay, I will still accept, love, be proud and supportive of them just the same without any dogma or stigma associated. I have GBLT friends and have worked for highly professional and competent openly-gay boss.

Now, lets discuss this within the specific context of Jat Samaj.

Thanks

"What should happen" and "what actually happen" are poles apart. A human is born and brought up under some "restrictions" imposed by surrounding environment, "restrictions" may be "cultural" "religious" or something else. So i don't know about high class, highly intellectual and sophisticated overseas/native Jat familes, but in a typical rural environment where 80% of The total jat population reside even 'intercaste marriages" is a stigma (gaam main kah hai ke khandaan kharab kar diya susree ne) so accepting gay and lesbians socially looks, if not centuries but definitely decades, away. Though "change" is a constant process and circumstances can compel changing fast to even Jats

 

[vdhillon]

"What should happen" and "what actually happen" are poles apart. A human is born and brought up under some "restrictions" imposed by surrounding environment, "restrictions" may be "cultural" "religious" or something else. So i don't know about high class, highly intellectual and sophisticated overseas/native Jat familes, but in a typical rural environment where 80% of The total jat population reside even 'intercaste marriages" is a stigma (gaam main kah hai ke khandaan kharab kar diya susree ne) so accepting gay and lesbians socially looks, if not centuries but definitely decades, away. Though "change" is a constant process and circumstances can compel changing fast to even Jats

Bhai Prashant, you made a very valid point about "What should happen" and "what actually happen". I am interested in both 'AS IS' and 'TO BE'.

 

[shibani]

Bhai Prashant, you made a very valid point about "What should happen" and "what actually happen". I am interested in both 'AS IS' and 'TO BE'.

Hi Vishal....well the topic is quiet bold I have to say that JAT community has not even reached at a level to accept inter caste marriage. Accepting SAME SEX marriage is definitely not on the cards for another century. I do sympathies for all gays as well as lesbians in our community but apart from sympathy I pretty much have nothing else to offer.

I am though happy to support them. Beyond this I am unable to imagine anything. But happy to discuss.

 

[amitdabas22]

When the girls/guys in our community have the courage to flee and marry intrs/inter caste, gay/lesb relationship should not be a problem. Its upon the people involved to decide. Two guys or two girls staying together all the time should not be a problem for anyone in our country leave aside our community, as long as they keep it to themselves.
But one thing i can not understand is that y these people need to take out a parade to demonstrate themself when even the courts have legitimised the relationship. They ofcourse have the freedom to practice their sexual orientations!!

 

[vdhillon]

Hi Vishal....well the topic is quiet bold I have to say that JAT community has not even reached at a level to accept inter caste marriage. Accepting SAME SEX marriage is definitely not on the cards for another century. I do sympathies for all gays as well as lesbians in our community but apart from sympathy I pretty much have nothing else to offer.

I am though happy to support them. Beyond this I am unable to imagine anything. But happy to discuss.

Before we dive little deeper, I would like to say that I have been told that this is too bold a topic to be discussed on JL.

Since, Jats pride on bravado, veerta, masochism, etc, I would like to think that Jats are mature and brave enough to face and discuss tough questions/issues.


A. Social attitude towards lesbian relationships - amusement out of novelty
Jat Samaj may deem gay relationships as taboo but they look at lesbian relationships with relatively more tolerance, sheerly out of amusement, not out of awareness. This is evident by media reports of two girls running away from home and wanting to stay together or get married to each other. They was viewed and reported with same curiosity as the birth of a calf with 2 heads, etc.

Luckily, no honor killings of such cases, and thus far no intervention from khap-ke-talibani-thekedar. Most cases, these girls are denied their human rights and forcibly married off.


B. Social attitude towards Gay relationships - largely a black hole
Gay relationships in Jat Samaj are unheard off, never reported but does not mean they do not exist. This is more to do with a higher degree of social bigotry.

Though gay pride marches started in Delhi only 4 years ago but participant are increasingly becoming bold, this has spurred more people to come out of the closet. Delhi, though urban, but is right in the middle of the Jat hinterland.

Its a matter of time before winds of change reach them. Since jats in India live in relatively more well off states with higher surface transport connectivity, with relatively easier access to mobile and internet connectivity, they are likely to have quicker access to material that will make them aware of their rights.


C. Social attitude towards Bisexuals - hypocrisy, part of growing up or confused state of mind or dualism or denial or hiding behind definitions
Bisexuality is little more complex to define. Few people are bisexual and continue to remain so for life time. Others may occasionally experiment with it, specially while growing up.

Numerous studies have showed that many people experiment with both sexes while growing up, more so in societies where gender segregation is practiced. A society that practices gender segregation, like Jat samaj does, limits the access to other gender specially in pubescent and adulthood stages. This is further compounded by the fact that sex is considered a taboo in these society and high premium is placed on sexual purity and sexual morality. This limits the opportunity for growing up young ones to obtain education and awareness about sex and related issues. Even where sex education is mandatory part of school curriculum (e.g. Haryana), due to taboo it is taught in such an obscure manner to be of any real benefit.

This results in many youngsters turning to their own gender for sex education, out of curiosity, raging hormones, rapid physical changes, etc. Most end up getting incorrect information or mythical information (recently, I was surprised to see on facebook how many jat youngsters in early 20s, many studying professional courses and have undergone mandatory sex education in school in haryana, are unaware of mode of STD transmission and HIV prevention).

They also turn to their slightly older peers, mostly same-sex for experimenting with sex, including sexual-self-gratification (MODs, please at least leave one of these words intact, if not both), touching themselves or each other or even more. Many grow out of this as they step into adulthood. Does this temporary bi-sexuality, a growing-up part of life in conservative gender-segregated society, make many jats hidden gay/bi? I would like the readers to stop and reflect on their own experiences and then take the poll at the bottom of this post.

Secondly, there also exist an attitude, whereby being a top (dominant, acting as husband during the sexual act) is deemed more macho and less taboo or stigmatic compared to being a bottom (submissive, acting as wife during sexual act). There are cases of male to male rapes where another male is forced into such act just to humiliate. This is an example of forced bi-sexualism deemed derogatory (disrobing the victim of their ultimate jat pride) by seemingly macho perpetrator.


D.Social attitude towards Transgenders - badly discriminated and kept on the fringes of the society
The third gender, Hijras, are still kept at the fringes of the society and there are very few examples where they are given equal rights, right to stay with families, right to education and work like any of us. A highly disadvantaged group. In many countries, including buddhist Thailand, they are accepted as equal and allowed to go to universities and work respectably like anybody else.


E. GLBT Legal Rights in India - decriminalized but not legalized
Britishers imposed their Victorian morality in India and made the gay/lesbian relationships a legal offence. In 2009, supreme court of India struck down that law and 'decriminalized' same-sex relationships. These relationships have been 'decriminalized' (no longer a legal offence) but are yet to be 'legalized' (a legal status with own marriage, divorce, alimony, property division, right to have family, etc).


F. Take the POLL - Your personal attitude towards GLBT
This is an anonymous poll, other will not be able to see your individual vote (your identification will remain confidential), they will be able to see only the aggregated results.
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...ans-Bisexuals-amp-Trans-genders)-in-Jat-Samaj

Brave jats, come on out and discuss your views

 

[cooljat]

.

Against - They are deviant and perverts who need medical and psychological treatment !!

This sums it up. My Vote and thought for the same.

 

[vdhillon]

.

Against - They are deviant and perverts who need medical and psychological treatment !!

This sums it up. My Vote and thought for the same.

Thanks for sharing your views. I wish to understand the basis of your decision and supporting evidence-based arguments.

I also request to review the post-6.

 

[upendersingh]

When the girls/guys in our community have the courage to flee and marry intrs/inter caste, gay/lesb relationship should not be a problem. Its upon the people involved to decide. Two guys or two girls staying together all the time should not be a problem for anyone in our country leave aside our community, as long as they keep it to themselves.
But one thing i can not understand is that y these people need to take out a parade to demonstrate themself when even the courts have legitimised the relationship. They ofcourse have the freedom to practice their sexual orientations!!

Such people know that they are on wrong path. They do so because they also want others to join them and that is the main problem of this world. Bad people don't want to do bad things in isolation, but they start crying openly that how great they are and then they have to face the heat from the society. Nothing is impossible in this world. Just will power and continuous attempts are essential. If someone is gay by genes, then with strong will power one can get rid of it, as gay relationship is not natural. 2 males or females can't produce kids. Such relationship doesn't look good. Even animals don't have sexual attraction towards same gender. I hate gays.

 

[ritu]

I m totally against same sex relationships.some boundaries are set to preserve the normalacy of society.we r responsible for the future generations also.how confused and disturbed will be or are the kids of gay parents regarding their sexual orientation.i see at these things how these will affect our future generations and feel very responsible for guiding them for gud values not some confused orientations......if we will accept this now then i dread the next ,their is no end to it........

 

[rinkusheoran]

It has proven again and again that gay/lesbian are all acquired tendencies not natural just like we get use to other habit of drinking tea/coffee or some other habits. So if something want to acquire anything then its totally ones own choice.

People talked about same gotra marriage and now same sex marriage what about next , same sex marriage in same gotra???

 

[vicky84]

Same sex relationship is a matter of individual choice. I do not see anything wrong in that as long as it does not hurt others. Personally I don't like them.

P.S : That's what democracy is all about.

 

[vdhillon]

It has proven again and again that gay/lesbian are all acquired tendencies not natural just like we get use to other habit of drinking tea/coffee or some other habits. So if something want to acquire anything then its totally ones own choice.

People talked about same gotra marriage and now same sex marriage what about next , same sex marriage in same gotra???

A. Dogma and biased opinion vs hard but liberating facts
No they are not acquired tendencies. Long ago, I use to think the same way until I made the effort to make myself aware based on scientific facts - it was a slow process. Just like there is diff between 'academic education' and 'awareness (of issues)', same way there is diff between '(dogma and biased) opinion' and ' facts (that may challenge our long held incorrect views)' .

B. Gayism is not by environment, scientific proof that it is in the genes you pass on to your kids
Review the national geography video again. There is ample scientific evidence that its in gene and its natural. Some societies consider it wrong. Hinduism, for most part of its history of 3K to 5K years (except last 200yrs) has excepted and celebrated gayism - immortalized in temple carving and prayed them. Parents might not be gay (or have been hiding or suppressing) but they may pass their 'dormant' gay genes to kids - its not my opinion, its a verifiable scientific fact.

C. Impact of Environment/Society on Gays and Anti-Gays
Gayism is not acquired, what is acquired is 'dogmatic' view against gays or courage to accept or support them. This acquired attitude towards them (anti or support) comes from people's environment, their willingness see beyond obvious, question validity of things (not for the sake of rebellion or jhoota moderanization) that have been ingrained in us from childhood. That requires certain level of maturity and courage. Good thing is this courage and maturity can be 'acquired', only if we are open to it.

D. What next? Where are We headed?
What next?,
Cave man left their cave and moved into villages.
From villages they moved into urban India.
Then some urban jats moved to more liberal western countries overseas.
Some human even went to the moon?

What next?
.
.
Shall we go back to the cave?
.
.
How about a cave on the moon?
Afterall many of us want the physical progress science has to offer but we are yet to come out of 'intellectual' caveman attitudes.

Are you an intellectual caveman?
or
Are you a JAT, brave and veer, who steps out in da open and says, "throw the facts at me, and I shall decide based on verifiable fact, no matter how hard initially it may be to accept this and overcome my long held biases"?

Mr and Ms JATs - who are you?
Are you a jat? a jat in name or a jat in practice?
A jat living da dogma or doggedly determined to pursue da truth regardless of how harsh and disturbing it may be.

Thanks for reading my views.

Raam raam to all the 'Alsi' Jats with intellectual courage.

 

[vdhillon]

Same sex relationship is a matter of individual choice. I do not see anything wrong in that as long as it does not hurt others. Personally I don't like them.

P.S : That's what democracy is all about.

@Atish
I respect your views Atish. Its a good start. When I first migrated to Oz, i had similar views, with more exposer to GLBT colleagues, etc and awareness my views slowly evolved from tolerance to acceptance to pro (based on scientific fact, my ability to interact with them and understand them - removing fear of unknown and biases).

@ALL READERS
I would expect that those who are minorities (e.g. Indians living overseas) would be able to relate lot more to the issues of minority GLBT, one way to look at GLBT issues as minority issues/rights and it will make lot more sense in terms of easier to relate to, understand and finally accept them.

Few other questions, I would like to ask all readers are:
1. Have they experienced bi or gay experiences during growing up years (mild to strong experience) refer to my post 6, bullet point C above. Reflect and think.

2. What will you do if your child turns out to be gay? Will you force them into hetro marriage and ruin two lives? What if they do not listen? Will you grudgingly make yourself aware and try to accept? or will you 'jat bahar niskasit' them? or worse, will you kill them to protect your jhoota 'honor'? While you reflect on this, hug you child and contemplate.

Do not turn a blind eye. It could happen to you tomorrow - an openly gay family member or offspring (or inter-caste, inter-racial marriage).

You can only prepare yourself for it or continue to be an Ostrich with head in the sand.

Lets dare to be JAT, brave enough to deal with issues head on.

 

[shibani]

I m totally against same sex relationships.some boundaries are set to preserve the normalacy of society.we r responsible for the future generations also.how confused and disturbed will be or are the kids of gay parents regarding their sexual orientation.i see at these things how these will affect our future generations and feel very responsible for guiding them for gud values not some confused orientations......if we will accept this now then i dread the next ,their is no end to it........

Ritu I understand your dilemma but I don't agree with it totally. Kids of today are so exposed to per say "Taboo" issues in their surrounds that they will not be confused but more informed. As parents we can guide our kids and be their best mentor but choosing a partner is going to be a totally personal choice. Imposing our choice is what going to make them confused. Are you trying to say that gay/lesbians don't have good values or their parents have lacked in their parental responsibility??? Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids.

I don't believe they chose a partner from the same sex due to confused orientations and they can be treated via some Rehablitation program or psychological treatment. They are perfectly normal beings who have a different choice which happen to be, choosing a partner from the same sex.

 

[vdhillon]

Ritu I understand your dilemma but I don't agree with it totally. Kids of today are so exposed to per say "Taboo" issues in their surrounds that they will not be confused but more informed. As parents we can guide our kids and be their best mentor but choosing a partner is going to be a totally personal choice. Imposing our choice is what going to make them confused. Are you trying to say that gay/lesbians don't have good values or their parents have lacked in their parental responsibility??? Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids.

I don't believe they chose a partner from the same sex due to confused orientations and they can be treated via some Rehablitation program or psychological treatment. They are perfectly normal beings who have a different choice which happen to be, choosing a partner from the same sex.

Perrrrfectooo! Shibani.

I am just adding the following:
Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids and gays raising normal kids.


Gays and Lesbian's Right to Adopt, Conceive or Raise Kids
In fact I can recall an incidence, once I was approached by a lesbian couple from Perth to be a sperm doner (no sex involved, child conceived using medical intervention, etc). I respectfully declined as I was not willing to have a child over whom I will not have any legal parental rights or wont be able to raise myself or not conceived with whom I was not living, etc. Though I wish to highlight, I am personally not against 'capable (of parental responsibilities)' gays or lesbian couples adopting or having biological kids by the way of surrogacy+medical or other methods.

Thats all from me for now. I am headed to my "Air Conditioned Medieval Cave" now <toink> <toink>. See you in the next post. Cheers!

 

[ritu]

Shibani i m no dilemma.i simply believe in rules of nature which tells me that hetro is the normal.which applies to plants animals and humans.kids have very tender minds and not all kids are smart enough.I am not questioning the values gay parents give to their kids.I feel responsible for my future genrations.I m not against gays but definitely wont support this sexual orientation.

Ritu I understand your dilemma but I don't agree with it totally. Kids of today are so exposed to per say "Taboo" issues in their surrounds that they will not be confused but more informed. As parents we can guide our kids and be their best mentor but choosing a partner is going to be a totally personal choice. Imposing our choice is what going to make them confused. Are you trying to say that gay/lesbians don't have good values or their parents have lacked in their parental responsibility??? Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids.

I don't believe they chose a partner from the same sex due to confused orientations and they can be treated via some Rehablitation program or psychological treatment. They are perfectly normal beings who have a different choice which happen to be, choosing a partner from the same sex.

 

[vdhillon]

Shibani i m no dilemma.i simply believe in rules of nature which tells me that hetro is the normal.which applies to plants animals and humans.kids have very tender minds and not all kids are smart enough.I am not questioning the values gay parents give to their kids.I feel responsible for my future genrations.I m not against gays but definitely wont support this sexual orientation.

Ritu ji, I agree with your view point that as per rules of nature "hetro" is normal, so is gay, lesbians, transgenders as proven by medical research, its in the gene. Like every one of has dormant TB, in some it develops into a disease. Same way everyone of has dormant GLBT genes, which get passed on to kids and in some kids they become 'active' at embroynic stage in the womb. These kids have no choice, its not a life style choice. Its this social practices in some societies make them 'not normal'. God has created all kinds - hetro, bi, homo & trans. There are many species of plant and animals born with both organs.

 

[singhvp]

All the gays and lesbians should be sent to concentration camps/correction centers in the dessert of Jaisalmer for a minimum term of 2 years to experience the riguors of life. Gay pride parade is sheer non-sense, height of perversion and demonstration of their shamelessness. Such kind of shameful activities must be dealt with iron hand. We cannot expect the liberty of doing any damn thing to quell the flames of our bestial lust. Tomorrow someone will seek a legislation for polygamy, promiscuity and right to rape.

 

[vdhillon]

Tomorrow someone will seek a legislation for polygamy, promiscuity and right to rape.

Polygamy and Promiscuity already exist. If all adult consenting parties are carrying it on then its their freedom of choice, why judge? Lets look into our collective societal hypocrisy.

Polygamy: Until British imposed Victorian laws on India, polygamy existed and was well accepted. Most Hindu kings and Hindu people with means were polygamous. even today, various tribes (Rajput and Jats) in Himachal and even Nepal practice one wife married to many brothers (to prevent division of property), Draupti, Raja Dashrath, all Pandava's and many wives. Our venerated Hindu icons were polygamous prior to British laws.

Promiscuity: Until islamic invasion there was no parda (veil) system, Hindu women wore two piece bikini type top (choli), a tribe (jat) that is largely follower of Shaivism, worships a phallus, takes pride in world's first ever manual on sex (that includes tips on gay, lo and behold 3sum, 4some, etc), glorifies promiscuity in erotic temple carving and worships phallus images...shall I go on more.

I rest my case