Are IIT/IIMs Facing Saturation Crisis ?

[samarkadian]

खुद मुंबई आइआइटी के छात्र रह चुके केंद्रीय पर्यावरण मंत्री जयराम रमेश ने सोमवार को एक नया विवाद खड़ा करते हुए देश के प्रतिष्ठित आइआइटी और आइआइएम को विश्वस्तरीय मानने से इंकार कर दिया। रमेश ने इन संस्थानों के शिक्षकों को आड़े हाथ लेते हुए कहा कि ये संस्थान विश्वस्तरीय नहीं हैं और वे विद्यार्थियों की गुणवत्ता के कारण ही उत्कृष्ट हैं। साथ ही केंद्रीय पर्यावरण मंत्री भारतीय वनस्पति सर्वेक्षण और भारतीय जीव विज्ञान सर्वेक्षण जैसी संस्थाओं को अपने दो वर्ष के कार्यकाल में सरकार से स्वतंत्र और स्वायत्त न बना पाने को अपनी सबसे बड़ी हताशा मानते हैं। रमेश ने यहां संयुक्त राष्ट्र द्वारा घोषित जैव विविधता दशक के विषय पर हुए समारोह से इतर पत्रकारों से कहा, आइआइटी के जरिए बमुश्किल ही कोई महत्वपूर्ण शोध आ पाता है। आइआइटी में शिक्षक विश्वस्तरीय नहीं हैं। आइआइटी में जाने वाले विद्यार्थी विश्वस्तरीय हैं। लिहाजा, आइआइटी और आइआइएम उनके शिक्षकों या शोध की गुणवत्ता के कारण नहीं, बल्कि विद्यार्थियों की गुणवत्ता के कारण उत्कृष्ट हैं। मालूम हो कि रमेश ने 1975 में आइआइटी मुंबई से मैकेनिकल इंजीनियरिंग से बीटेक किया था। रमेश ने कहा कि भारत सरकारी तंत्र के चलते विश्वस्तरीय शोध केंद्र विकसित नहीं कर पाता। उन्होंने गुजरात के जामनगर में रिलायंस इंडस्ट्रीज लिमिटेड के संयुक्त उपक्रम के साथ विश्वस्तरीय राष्ट्रीय समुद्री जैव विविधता केंद्र की स्थापना करने के अपने मंत्रालय के फैसले को भी जायज ठहराया। जामनगर में रिलायंस की बड़ी तेल रिफाइनरी है। रमेश ने कहा कि मंत्रालय ने यह फैसला इसलिए किया क्योंकि सरकारी तंत्र में विश्वस्तरीय शोध केंद्र की स्थापना नहीं की जा सकती और अगर स्थापना हो भी जाए तो उसमें युवाओं को आकर्षित नहीं किया जा सकता। रिलायंस के सहयोग से शोध केंद्र स्थापित करने पर हितों का टकराव होने की बात से रमेश ने इंकार किया। उन्होंने कहा, हम सरकारी व्यवस्था में विश्वस्तरीय शोध केंद्र की स्थापना नहीं कर सकते। हम बीते 60 वर्ष के अनुभव से इस बात को समझ सकते हैं कि सरकारी शोध संस्थान युवा प्रतिभाओं को आकर्षित नहीं कर सकते। रमेश ने कहा कि यही कारण है कि हमें अलग नजरिए से सोचने की जरूरत है। जामनगर में शोध केंद्र सार्वजनिक-निजी भागीदारी के आधार पर स्थापित होगा। इससे पहले जैव विविधता दशक पर रमेश ने कहा, पर्यावरण के क्षेत्र में भारतीय वनस्पति सर्वेक्षण और भारतीय जीव विज्ञान सर्वेक्षण दो प्रमुख संस्थाएं हैं। बतौर पर्यावरण मंत्री मेरी दो वर्ष की सबसे बड़ी हताशा इन्हीं संस्थाओं को लेकर है। उन्होंने कहा, हम चाहते हैं कि ये संस्थाएं पेशेवर तरीके से काम करने के लिए स्वतंत्र और स्वायत्त हो जाएं लेकिन इस संबंध में हो रहे प्रयासों का विरोध इन्हीं संस्थाओं की ओर से हो रहा है। ऐसा इसलिए है कि दोनों संस्थाएं सरकार से अपना जुड़ाव तोड़ना नहीं चाहती क्योंकि स्वतंत्र और स्वायत्त हो जाने वे जवाबदेह भी हो जाएंगी।

Couples of months ago Jai Ram Ramesh had thrown the convocation gown in a convocation ceremony of some University. He had cited that this gown represents the slavery era. This time he has questioned the top reputed institutes of the country. However, by stating teachers/administration the main villain, he righteously projected students as world class. These are the same institutes for which most of school going students start preparing 2-3 years ago. This is an interesting scenario.


1. How can students be world class when their teachers are not above average standards? Or Above observation is purely fictional?

2. As we all know that big middle class pocket of the country loosen itself only at children education. It makes education a huge business market for private and foreign institutes. Indirectly is he alluding towards welcoming of foreign institutes in Indian education sector.?

3. Are top institutes in real facing a phase of saturation?

 

[ravinderpannu]

Couples of months ago Jai Ram Ramesh had thrown the convocation gown in a convocation ceremony of some University. He had cited that this gown represents the slavery era. This time he has questioned the top reputed institutes of the country. However, by stating teachers/administration the main villain, he righteously projected students as world class. These are the same institutes for which most of school going students start preparing 2-3 years ago. This is an interesting scenario.

This is good pointing a finger at slavery kind of tradition.

1. How can students be world class when their teachers are not above average standards? Or Above observation is purely fictional?

Well, as far as students are concerned , they are definately world class, we all know only creamy layer get in there.
Just take any successful person (there can be many criteria of success), track his education history,80% are not from IIT's or IIm's or they never studied in convents or public schools, they managed to get education in only just average kind of institutes but yet they are successful . Same is the case in IITs the student who get in there are really brilliant, so teachers have to make very less effort to make them understand or infact no effort because these guys (IITians) believe in self study(extensive).
.....we have never seen of majority research papers from IIT's. so we draw a conclusion that the teachers are just average and that is true.

2. As we all know that big middle class pocket of the country loosen itself only at children education. It makes education a huge business market for private and foreign institutes. Indirectly is he alluding towards welcoming of foreign institutes in Indian education sector.?

if foreign institutes land in India, and their fees is equivalent or slightly higher to the institutes in India and they provide good base for research and development, i favour them.

3. Are top institutes in real facing a phase of saturation?

Top institutes are always saturated as every body wishes to get in there, because a big BRAND name can get a hefty salary package. If it happens that there is another private institue ( engineerin/management) which provides a very good education and infra for R& D , surely it is going to beat any IIT , IIM ( not IIPM type).

 

[shivamchaudhary]

I had similar thought, I too observed that not all the faculty is upto mark. We hardly motivated to publish any paper and there were lack of guidance. Most of recent joined faculty belongs to the group who didn't get good package from private sector.

In my dept. there are fellows, who are even not suitable in primary teacher place, but awarded PhD. I don't know where these institute are leading to.

Another problem is most students, I would say brilliant students do not join INDIA research or government advance research organization. They are just doing job for making more money in private sector. I don't know how this will help in advancing a nation like INDIA.

 

[amitdabas22]

I dont know whether the faculty is top class or not but IIMs and IITs are certainly producing future CEOs and great entrepreneurs.
Also what fails me is that how come Jairam Ramesh has such profound knowledge about world class quality faculty.
Only attending convocations does not make him aware of the quality of the faculty at a place !

 

[vivekdh]

bcs he studied in IIT-B and also in world class MIT

Education:--
Ramesh attended St. Xavier School, Ranchi in 1961-1963 in classes 3 to 5. He graduated in 1975 from the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay (IIT-B) with a B. Tech. in Mechanical Engineering. In 2001, IIT-B presented him with their Distinguished Alumnus Award.[6]
Between 1975-77 he studied at Carnegie Mellon University's Heinz College and received a Master of Science in Management and public policy. In 1977-78, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology he studied technology policy, economics, engineering, and management, as part of the newly-established inter-disciplinary technology policy programme.
He is a founding member of the Indian School of Business in Hyderabad and is a member of the International Council of the New York-based Asia Society. Ramesh has been an Honorary Fellow of the Institute of Chinese Studies, New Delhi since 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jairam_Ramesh

I dont know whether the faculty is top class or not but IIMs and IITs are certainly producing future CEOs and great entrepreneurs.
Also what fails me is that how come Jairam Ramesh has such profound knowledge about world class quality faculty.
Only attending convocations does not make him aware of the quality of the faculty at a place !

 

[virj]

IIT and IIMs are over-rated institutes in India. They are way behind compared to the top institutes in the rest of the world.

 

[htomar]

achhi faculty kaha se aayengi.jab selection mai to misister ki approach chahiye.tatahagat Avtar Tulsi ka example sabke saamne hai.IIt Patna ne reject kiya.acha hua IIt Bomaby ne ijjat bacaha li.nahi to wo bhi padha raha hota kisi foreign university mai.

 

[ankurbaliyan]

Hello every one,
I also want to put forward my views on this....I also have got some experience while I was there.... I used to observe very thoroughly the difference between the NITs/IITs students and other privet college students. Please keep in mind this is my own observations and experiences based on the interaction with both kind of student over more than 10 years. Well before I make a start, I would like to draw your attention to the statement made by Jairam Ramesh.... He is talking about the Research standard...which is really true word by word...I have plenty of friends, they are struggling with the instruments and merely gets trained for those instruments. Now the big questions comes do we really have enough instruments in IITs? Then the answer is yes...They do have. But the real problem is the best use of these instruments, which is highly unlikely in top Indian institutions. Second problem is the technical support. If any sophisticated instruments had even miner issue, they are not dare to touch it and it takes months to repair (Government procedure is so long and lack of technical support in India). Say for example, In my lab we have JEOL TEM, an engineer from JEOL will always be sitting in our institution round the clock, we don’t happen to see this in IITs. Until, you don’t have command on instruments it is a rare case that someone come up with good research.

Indeed, it is true that students are really highly skilled and brilliant. The difference is with the mind set....In IIT a student starts preparing for GRE and TOEFL or GATE in second year, where he/she get to know from their seniors and appear to all the exams in pre final year. While in pvt engineering college, a student start preparing for GATE, and if you ask them about GRE/TOEFL then they say they have not heard off. Preparing for any exam that too with a span of two years is what really matters a lot. They have not only studied the GRE and TOELF syllabus, doing so they have already prepared for Job interviews and sharpen their skills. Faculty is not really important as far research is concern. I used to complain my guide for not telling me about the advance research, but he did admit and told me that.....do you think I can really teach you any advanced research? Then he told me..... Would you like to learn what I had studied before 30 years b/c that is what I have as of now...... and I am not in position to learn new technology, since I am growing older. He told me that I knew much better than him. He asked me to learn new technology and explain to him in simple words.... That day onwards, I never look back b/c I knew the reality which is true of course.... I started learning my own...This is how story goes in IIT/NITs. I foresee the day when IITs will give a chance to the young and dynamic profs to come and join their research groups.... and remember not everyone is made for research, I came across so many good profs who were not good researcher at all but very good teacher...and vice versa. In last December I met few Nobel laureates who their pioneer work in Physics/Chemistry, they also have the same feeling. You go anywhere and check about the quality of its teachers/profs, it is almost same as in India. Every new generation is intelligent then the previous one......This is law of nature....

 

[singhvp]

According to the two websites indicated below IIT Bombay, Delhi, Kanpur and Madras rank 47, 52, 63 & 68 respectively in the list of world’s top 100 universities/colleges of technology & Engineering. While the website at Srl No. 1(given below) indicates the overall ranking, the ranking given by the website at Srl No. 2 is faculty-specific. However, in terms of general ranking of universities/colleges (at sr. No. 3), the IITs figure nowhere. But for the IIMs, I do not find any mention in the top 100s in all the three links given below.

1. http://www.usnews.com/education/wor.../worlds-best-universities-engineering-and-it-

2.http://www.topuniversities.com/univ...ankings/2010/subject-rankings/technology?page=

3.http://www.topuniversities.com/top-100-universities-in-the-world-2011


However, how realistic and authentic the above mentioned rankings are, could be a matter of debate.

If the craze and competition for admission in IITs and IIMs are to be the indicators, it doesn’t look that these premier institutions, considered to be replicas of Massachusetts Institute of Technology, have lost their glamour – quality of faculty notwithstanding. Even today, an admission into these institutions can almost guarantee an entry into the much sought after MNCs for the boys and girls from humble background. There may be equally good private institutions in India imparting quality education in Technology but the exorbitant fee structure and hefty donations make these institutions comparatively less attractive to the students from lower or middle rungs of society.

Of course, in comparison to some reputed technological and management Institutions in developed countries, you may find our IITs/IIMs lagging far behind in the area of research & development. The reasons could be lack of support from the Indian corporate sector and lack of vision and callous attitude on the part of government appointed Administrators.

In my opinion, these institutions have not yet reached the saturation point and still highly relevant for a country like India which has a vast potential of human resources waiting to be tapped but has scarcity of funds for sending its talented boys and girls abroad for getting best out of them, by giving them adequate scholarships. Therefore, IITs/IIMs are the best resort for that huge mass of talented youth from the humbler India.

 

[kapdal]

Jairam Ramesh is both right and wrong. He is right about research standards (everyone knows that and it has always been the case). He is wrong about saturation point. What has to be understood is that good student, good researcher, good engineer and good businessman are entirely different things.

1. The flagship program (what they are famous for) for IITs is B.Tech and IIMs is PGDM. B.Tech is an undergraduate degree and no where in the world undergrads are known for research. PGDM is the MBA program for IIMs and again, no where in the world MBAs do research. Neither IITs nor IIMs have ever been famous for their research-oriented programs. The research standards are very low compared to the world, but they are still high compared to India. So bottomline is that hardly any good research happens in India in technical fields and IITs/IIMs are no exception.

2. The reason behind "good students" is the fliter-like entrance exams that IITs and IIMs have for their flagship programs. The exams are catered to test IQ in an objective fashion for an extremely large number of students and then pick the top rankers. The only things common about students of flagship programs at IITs and IIMs is good IQ and not good engineering/research/business or even people skills.

3. The faculty at both places is OK, but nothing compared to world standards. Again "good" is different for research and teaching. A good B.Tech faculty should be good at teaching. You can't teach research, but a good research faculty around the world publishes a lot of research and the students get involved in the process. Apart from a few exceptions, the professors at IITs and IIMs are not excellent in either teaching or research. My best teacher at IIT Delhi was a guy who didn't even have a PhD.

4. The people who enter IIT for B.Tech are mostly good students just out of school who are otherwise clueless about what career they want. Atleast this was the case 10 years back. IIT just means a good platform where you first get in and then think later. Many find out that the actual engineering curriculum hardly interests them. That is one reason why a majority of these students switch fields once they graduate. Only some people become engineers or researchers in their fields. Those who want to do further studies in their own field, usually go to the US where research standards are higher. Many take jobs that are not in their field. While quite a few go for MBA at IIMs. But whatever decision they take, they are much more mature and focused on career than they were before entering IIT. This is one reason why the same student puts in much more effort at IIM than he did at IIT. IIMs are also much more rigorous and have a system that forces students to put in effort unlike IITs, where students thrive on "short-cuts". For these reasons, quality of education, as measured by students' understanding of their courses, is much better at IIMs than at IITs even though IITs have much better raw talent.

5. A saturation point is reached when you can no longer do what you could earlier. IITs and IIMs can still select high-IQ students and act as filters, like they have always done. So there is no saturation in what they have always done most successfully.

 

[spdeshwal]

Dear kapil

Having first hand experience of both IIT and IIM, you explained it so nicely.
Jairam Ramesh also may be absolutely right in saying that it is the student who are world class and not the facility and faculty.
It may not be true as of now but something I remember from my own experience. In mid eighties, I was at JBIMS Bombay doing MFM (Part Time) and one of distant cousin Naresh Khatri had just finished his PGD from IIM Ahamdabad and joined NABARD at Bomaby ( Now Professor at Missouri State University). He lent me some study material, a bunch of 20-25 case studies. As all of you can imagine, all the case studies were from US. Not a single case study that was carried out was from Indian scenario.
As Kapil has pointed out tight filtering through entrance exams, probably, these institutes would have highest average I.Q in the world and therefore being grabbed straightway from their institutions.
Infact IIM Ahmadabad is prob. in top five while taking salaries paid to the fresh graduate into consideration.
One of the link I have just visited shows it ahead of Harvard Business school. Overall, it places IIM Ahmadabad at 11th and ISB Hydrabad at 13th rank.

http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-rankings-2011

 

[akshaymalik84]

Dear kapil

Having first hand experience of both IIT and IIM, you explained it so nicely.
Jairam Ramesh also may be absolutely right in saying that it is the student who are world class and not the facility and faculty.
It may not be true as of now but something I remember from my own experience. In mid eighties, I was at JBIMS Bombay doing MFM (Part Time) and one of distant cousin Naresh Khatri had just finished his PGD from IIM Ahamdabad and joined NABARD at Bomaby ( Now Professor at Missouri State University). He lent me some study material, a bunch of 20-25 case studies. As all of you can imagine, all the case studies were from US. Not a single case study that was carried out was from Indian scenario.
As Kapil has pointed out tight filtering through entrance exams, probably, these institutes would have highest average I.Q in the world and therefore being grabbed straightway from their institutions.
Infact IIM Ahmadabad is prob. in top five while taking salaries paid to the fresh graduate into consideration.
One of the link I have just visited shows it ahead of Harvard Business school. Overall, it places IIM Ahmadabad at 11th and ISB Hydrabad at 13th rank.

http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-rankings-2011

Deshwal ji,

If you look at the IIMA's faculty with doctrate, 96% of its faculty is Phd. which is almost equal to other institutes percentage. But when you look at the research rank of IIMA it is 92 among top 100 institutes. Also the aims achieved rank for IIMA is 94. IIMA is ahead of harvard business school only in Weighted Salary. This weighted salary is based on the power purchasing parity rates issued by international monetary fund and this PPP factor take into account the cost of living of the country. Thats why may be IIMA is ahead in weighted salary. The above data also confirms the quality of Indian research institutes. If you have 96% of faculty as Phd and raking in research is 92 then something is wronge with faculty.

Also look at the Phd rank, it is 55 for IIMA and 14 for Harvard.Phd rank is calculated by the no. of doctoral graduates from that business school in past three years. And no. of graduates opting for faculty positions also adds to the institute rankings.

 

[kapdal]

Dear kapil

Having first hand experience of both IIT and IIM, you explained it so nicely.
Jairam Ramesh also may be absolutely right in saying that it is the student who are world class and not the facility and faculty.
It may not be true as of now but something I remember from my own experience. In mid eighties, I was at JBIMS Bombay doing MFM (Part Time) and one of distant cousin Naresh Khatri had just finished his PGD from IIM Ahamdabad and joined NABARD at Bomaby ( Now Professor at Missouri State University). He lent me some study material, a bunch of 20-25 case studies. As all of you can imagine, all the case studies were from US. Not a single case study that was carried out was from Indian scenario.
As Kapil has pointed out tight filtering through entrance exams, probably, these institutes would have highest average I.Q in the world and therefore being grabbed straightway from their institutions.
Infact IIM Ahmadabad is prob. in top five while taking salaries paid to the fresh graduate into consideration.
One of the link I have just visited shows it ahead of Harvard Business school. Overall, it places IIM Ahmadabad at 11th and ISB Hydrabad at 13th rank.

http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-rankings-2011

That's pretty much still the case, sir. Most case studies in IIMs are still from US universities. There are a few related to India written by Indian professors, but it is a very small percentage.

 

[arvindc]

Couples of months ago Jai Ram Ramesh had thrown the convocation gown in a convocation ceremony of some University. He had cited that this gown represents the slavery era. This time he has questioned the top reputed institutes of the country. However, by stating teachers/administration the main villain, he righteously projected students as world class. These are the same institutes for which most of school going students start preparing 2-3 years ago. This is an interesting scenario.


1. How can students be world class when their teachers are not above average standards? Or Above observation is purely fictional?

A peep in the history would tell you that the master revolutionists and great scientists were not a product of best schools. They defied common believes and set new ones. In fact, they defied more then what they followed. World class facilities is not a necessity.

Yes, there is direct relationship between the best schools and best money makers. There are many examples in the present day scenario. It doesn’t not matter how they make money (ethics is just a word for them). They use the latest tools to loot and plunder people and nations. The only difference between them and thieves is that while thief uses absence of good security, these people use absence of good laws. Both have good IQ, both are greedy and both are thieves.

2. As we all know that big middle class pocket of the country loosen itself only at children education. It makes education a huge business market for private and foreign institutes. Indirectly is he alluding towards welcoming of foreign institutes in Indian education sector.?

Yeah, after selling off all the natural resources, the politicians now want to encash of 'good' (markatable) brand image of these institutions. Private players can makes milliions out of this brand image, so why not take a share of it.

3. Are top institutes in real facing a phase of saturation?

Doesn't matter, if one goes down, the other comes up.

 

[annch]

So, you think high IQ and ethics are mutually exclusive, as are earning well (best schools/best money makers) and being ethical?

Yes, there is direct relationship between the best schools and best money makers. There are many examples in the present day scenario. It doesn’t not matter how they make money (ethics is just a word for them). They use the latest tools to loot and plunder people and nations. The only difference between them and thieves is that while thief uses absence of good security, these people use absence of good laws. Both have good IQ, both are greedy and both are thieves.

 

[kapdal]

So, you think high IQ and ethics are mutually exclusive, as are earning well (best schools/best money makers) and being ethical?

Hehe, this sort of exclusivism is classic Mao- style communist ideology...

If you have good IQ, you must be a thief. And there is no chance of you having ethics. In order to be honest, you should have low IQ. So the first thing Mao did with his "great leap forward" was a mass genocide (purge) of engineer, doctors, and other "skilled" workers.

No wonder why even good ideas like socialism have a very bad name today. Marx and those before him didn't intend human beings to suppress their natural aspirations for growth and better lifestyle.
But in the hands of Stalin-Mao type ideologues, their meaning was completely distorted. Any natural aspiration of a human being is by default corrupt and unethical. To be ethical, you HAVE TO be servile, you HAVE TO shun your aspirations in favor of the greater good (read as high command's diktat) and you HAVE TO remain poor.

 

[arvindc]

So, you think high IQ and ethics are mutually exclusive, as are earning well (best schools/best money makers) and being ethical?

A subset (not all) of both is mutually exclusive.

The point, in context, here is that the best schools, teachers, facilities, etc are not a necessaria criteria for becoming 'the' best. Common belives and paths would lead only to a common place.

 

[arvindc]

Hehe, this sort of exclusivism is classic Mao- style communist ideology...

If you have good IQ, you must be a thief. And there is no chance of you having ethics. In order to be honest, you should have low IQ. So the first thing Mao did with his "great leap forward" was a mass genocide (purge) of engineer, doctors, and other "skilled" workers.

No wonder why even good ideas like socialism have a very bad name today. Marx and those before him didn't intend human beings to suppress their natural aspirations for growth and better lifestyle.
But in the hands of Stalin-Mao type ideologues, their meaning was completely distorted. Any natural aspiration of a human being is by default corrupt and unethical. To be ethical, you HAVE TO be servile, you HAVE TO shun your aspirations in favor of the greater good (read as high command's diktat) and you HAVE TO remain poor.

yes, in socialism, the community comes before the individual. A high IQ individual has to first make good, the community, before himself.... let's not deviate the topic

 

[singhvp]

Hehe, this sort of exclusivism is classic Mao- style communist ideology...

If you have good IQ, you must be a thief. And there is no chance of you having ethics. In order to be honest, you should have low IQ. So the first thing Mao did with his "great leap forward" was a mass genocide (purge) of engineer, doctors, and other "skilled" workers.

No wonder why even good ideas like socialism have a very bad name today. Marx and those before him didn't intend human beings to suppress their natural aspirations for growth and better lifestyle.
But in the hands of Stalin-Mao type ideologues, their meaning was completely distorted. Any natural aspiration of a human being is by default corrupt and unethical. To be ethical, you HAVE TO be servile, you HAVE TO shun your aspirations in favor of the greater good (read as high command's diktat) and you HAVE TO remain poor.

Very true. Optimum and sustainable progress can never be achieved unless the legitimate aspirations of individuals are allowed to be realized by way of giving due space to their natural intelligence (IQ). Mao and Stalin made historical mistakes in annihilating the people with exceptional qualities and high degree of IQ thereby subverting progressive ideologies propounded by great social scientists and thinkers like Hegel, Marx and Friedrich Engels. Our IITs/IIMs provide good filters for identifying the best IQ in our country and provide it deserved opportunity at very reasonable price to develop the natural talent which is in conformity with the law of natural selection and the best interest of our country.

 

[kapdal]

yes, in socialism, the community comes before the individual. A high IQ individual has to first make good, the community, before himself.... let's not deviate the topic

You deviated from the topic! And sorry, you are giving us the Stalin/Mao definition of socialism. "Community comes before the individual"- is the sort of ideology that has been used to suppress people by communist regimes all over the world. Where community is denoted by "the chosen few".

What does it mean- if community thinks you should be a factory worker, but you want to be a football player- you bow to the community? Community tells you that you should live in a ghetto in the corner of a city, while you want to live somewhere else- you bow to the community? These are real examples from communist regimes!

"Community comes before the individual" captures the strongly prescriptive and authoritarian format of the communism which advocates Utopia but practises tyrnanny of the chosen few in the name of community. They usurp power by advocating "All men are equal" and once in power "become more equal than others". Their children go to the best universities in the world (Case in point- Bengali Communists), while the masses are forced through a sub-standard education system and any sort of individual merit is suppressed.

The progressive thinkers imagined Socialism as an uplifting system, where people won't be suppressed in name of hierarchy of wealth, birth, class, etc. The community was supposed to provide an environment that maximised every individual's aspirations rather than direct them on the whims of a few. Common ownership of means of production was advocated so that a few people don't exploit the rest because of their advantageous position. It wasn't advocated to suppress the individual. As anyone can see, the communist regimes were a total opposite of Socialist system.

I pull my hair out when I see most people talk about socialism as an evil force because of the obvious propaganda in the West. But the situation is so bad that the so-called supporters of socialism define it in such evil fashion!