Those guilty of "Within Gotra" marriage should be ostrasized by JAT's... Yes or No ?

[tarzon]

You have made a good point that he law too is after all for the people and should be amended to suit the people if the so desire.

But the fact of the matter is that law doesnt change for any particular community except for religious norms. Our constitution guarantees the same basic laws and right to everyone irrespective of their caste and community. Its only religious beliefs that are left untampered by the courts of law. And even then people have tried to take same gotra marriage into the courts. More than 40 years ago SC decided on a same gotra case and quotes religious Hindu texts to throw out the case against same gotra marriage. Even a few years when Khap issue was in media highlights, a man tried to go to court to seek ban on same gotra marriages. The case was thrown out again.

The trouble with society's laws is that they arent written down anywhere and society itself is so dynamic and in a state of constant flux that it changes its norms very frequently. While in the case of religion, because there is a code written down in religious text, framing laws is simpler. But society's norms aren't collected in one place or written down anywhere. So if one community wishes to change the laws to suit itself then it would have to show a text where all laws are written and prescribed to the members of the community. Apart from that the only way to amend the laws is to seek a referendum on the issue. If all Jats agree with it then it could be made a law. But that will open a can of worms as we have literally thousands of communities and law cant be amended to suit everyone.

Jaspreet,

As far as mine understanding of the law, there is no such prohibition that law can't be formulated for any particular community. The Hindu Marriage Act also have indifference itself, The HMA prohibit marriage with first cousin among Hindus like marriage with Mama's son/daughter, Bua's son/daughter. But the same HMA also exempt some Hindu communities specially from south India where their tradition allow to form matrimonial relationship with Mama's son/daughter, Bua's son/daughter.

So the same law can null and void a matrimonial relationship in some part of the India and the same law gives a legal sanctity to the same relationship in some other part of India.

Are the south Indian are not Indian? Why there is no uniformity in HMA here? In which text or holy book it is written that Hindus can form the matrimonial relationship with Mama's son/daughter, Bua's son/daughter?

There tradition is tradition and got a legal sanctity and our tradition is bullshit and won't get any legal sanctity. This is nonsense and I can't buy this argument. As south Indian tradition allow to form some relationship, similarly our tradition prohibit to form relationship within father and mother gotras and It should also have to get a legal sanctity at least for Jat community or any other community who follows the same tradition.

There are 1000's of Gotras among Jat community, if as per our tradition, we avoid 2-3 gotras at the time matrimonial relationship, it doesn't make any difference. We still have 1000's of gotras to form the relationship. On Jatland more than 3000 Jat gotra are listed or even we should have to do Inter caste marriage, the whole world is open.

As far as SC or any other court decision is concern, the court gave their decision as per the existing law, as there is no mention of Gotra in existing law the court are bound to reject such request.

The law make sit in the Parliament and they make the law. If our gotra system will get legal sanctity then court will give their decisions as per that law.

 

[swaich]

bhai agar A aur B k maa babu b teri dhal same gotra me yakin rakhte honge to inke genes b same honge............aur agar aise he same gotra chalta raha to next generation ko problem hogi he.

BHAI agar A and B dono Swiach hain (same gotra) aur dono shadi karte hain aur C ka janam dete hain to usme dono k 50% genes hote hain.means sare genes SWIACH k hue.
aur scientific way me dekhe to parents k genes different hone chahiye jis se child me 50% alag alag genes ho taki genetic problem na ho.

same gotra me marriage se genetic problem hoti h..........tere reference k liye ek link send karunga padh lena.

Bhai main..current times ki baat kar raha hun jab gotra ko bane hue kayi 100 saal beet chuke hain. Aur agar hum ab tak sare rule strictly follow kar rahe the to fir to kisi gotra ki same gotra se mixing hona mushkil hi hai na. Matlab ki itne saalon se same gotra marriage avoid karte rehne se ab hamne genetic risk almost khatam kar diya hai. Kya aap is baat se agree karte hain? Agar karte hain tabhi main next point rakhunga.

 

[puneetlakra]

A quick look at last few pages and I don't understand what the disagreement is about. It seems that everyone is making the same point, but still disagreeing.

Before you go into the science question, can anyone tell me why is the science question important? Are you following gotra bhaichara because it is scientific? Are you going to stop following it if it was unscientific?

My father gives some token money to any Dalal girl he comes across when he is visiting any village on a social visit and finds one married in the neighborhood. Is there anything scientific about? He does it as the bhaichara is ingrained in him. It doesn't make any difference if it is scientific or not.

You follow customs and rituals as a matter of faith, not because they have been proven in a lab. It is something that ties you to a community, makes you a part of a group.
All this bickering about proving how scientific gotra bhaichara is only shows our need to get legitimacy for it. If the community wants to follow it, no one can stop it from following it. It is suffice to say that we believe in gotra bhaichara, hence we follow. No other arguments are needed just like no argument is needed in going to a temple or doing a namaaz.

I strongly feel that we should stop talking about science when we talk about gotra system. The logic being debated is that of diversification of genetic pool and you get sufficient diversification as long as you are not systematically inbreeding. As far as genetics is concerned, it is equally likely that you get one from male or female side. Our system gives more weightage to paternal side as you leave all generations of your own gotra (your paternal lineage), your mother's gotra (your mother's paternal lineage) and your dadi's (dadi's paternal lineage). But this doesn't cover some maternal sides like mother's mother's lineage or father's mother's mother's lineage. So theoretically our custom promotes more diversification but with much more weightage to paternal lineages. From what I gathered, both sides were making broadly the same arguments. It is not something you can prove as either scientific or unscientific, so it is not really worth doing your PhD on.

Mr.kapil dalal,
Yes their is significance in giving money to the girl of your gotras while visiting their place , In past time mainly in Mughal era our women are not going out for any livilyhood except their own fields and they don't have any money to use in any emergency time so our elders starts giving money to them while they are not at their parental home and going to her husbands home from parental home , and another important thing is how bhaichara is ingrained the logic behind is when you know someone who is looking and living around you , you feel hesitating in doing any sort of illegal work because what the knows will say this thought always bothers you and forcing you not do any sinful act.


When raja Harshvardhan introduced the Khap system , that is the best system to get consensus over any issue, when we go out of our village /home then we have to visit our gatras girl as par told and followed by our elders ,by this way can know their thoughts and conditions and any issue, this led helps our panchyaats to take appropriate step.
When we met somebody many times and recognize them well then it also ingrained the bhaichara

 

[sure]

Swiach bhai baat h ya ki sidha koi kisi ne ni marta............pehle usne pyar te samjhave se....agar fer b na mane to apni izzat aur samaj ki parampara bachan khater marna b pade se......aur yu marna koi galat ni hai.

aur yu marne wala decision unke parents ka khud ka hota h bhai......

aur ek baat kahu per kehna ni chau tha......itni aag lagri se jo ki same gotra me (jo ki dekhe to BEBE hoyi) shadi karan me b saharm koni......kal ne apne ghar ki chorri gail shadi karan me b sharam na mane.......yu ghatiya kaam rokan khater to bhai ise ise OPEN MINDED marne e padenge.

Galati sudharne ke char pravdhan banaye hue hain.
Ved, vaani, Dand, Bhed. Ved yani gyan, pahle aadmi ko gyan do, gyan dene ke baad bhi baat samajh mein aa jaye toh thheek hai otherwise we must use Vani, oose kade sabdon ka prayog karke samajhana chahiye, agar fir bhi nahi manta hai toh wah Dand ka adhikari hai aur last mein aise aadmi se bhed (ostracized) karna hi uchit hi. Totally infected persons are not supposed to be the part of society.

 

[vikasjat]

Bhai main..current times ki baat kar raha hun jab gotra ko bane hue kayi 100 saal beet chuke hain. Aur agar hum ab tak sare rule strictly follow kar rahe the to fir to kisi gotra ki same gotra se mixing hona mushkil hi hai na. Matlab ki itne saalon se same gotra marriage avoid karte rehne se ab hamne genetic risk almost khatam kar diya hai. Kya aap is baat se agree karte hain? Agar karte hain tabhi main next point rakhunga.

chal man li pehle same gotra ki vajah se genetic problem ni hui...
ab tu bol raha h ki same gotra me shadi thek h koi objection ni hona chahiye.......manta hu starting me genetic problem jyda ni hogi...lekin agar same gotra marriage chali to next generations me genetic problems hogi he hogi....

ab tujhe is se jyda main ni samjha sakta.....tune scientific reason yaha likha to uska b todd tere samne rakh diya....
culture k according log k k bolenge vo b tere te bata di...........ghana khul k aade likh ni sakte kyki sharam karni pade se public site per.

AUR AGAR AB B TU NI SAMAJH SAKTA TO BHAI AUR HUM B NA SAMJHA SAKTE.......PER TU NU KARIYE SAME GOTRA KI CHORRI TE SHADI KAR LIYE AUR JAB KAR LE TO HUMNE KHABAR KAR DIYE KI MAIN SAHI SALAMAT SU AUR AB MERA GAAM MODERN BAN LIYA USA JISA.

Bhai tu aisa kar jo link maine send kiya h use dhayan se padh le........fir tu mujhe batana ki same gotra hone se genes different kaha se layega???????

 

[vikasjat]

Mr.kapil dalal,
Yes their is significance in giving money to the girl of your gotras while visiting their place , In past time mainly in Mughal era our women are not going out for any livilyhood except their own fields and they don't have any money to use in any emergency time so our elders starts giving money to them while they are not at their parental home and going to her husbands home from parental home , and another important thing is how bhaichara is ingrained the logic behind is when you know someone who is looking and living around you , you feel hesitating in doing any sort of illegal work because what the knows will say this thought always bothers you and forcing you not

bhai shadi k time barati chorri wala te pucha kre ki humare gaam ki koi chorri aade byah rakhi ho ya mare gotra ki koi ho, to usne paise de k aaya kare kyuki va behan mani ja se.

ebb sochan wali baat se je same gotra me shadi koi karta ho to fairo pe apne hon wali bahu ne 10 ruppes de k bolega ki bebe ye le pisse aur side me dhar k faire le le???????????hahhahahhahaha

yaar jo gott chode se vo kimme soch samajh k chode se....ebb nu samajh na aati ki yu SWIACH kade gaam me b gaya hoga to isne k is baat ka bera koni?
ya iske parents ya baat batate koni?

 

[abhikrana]

Very succinctly explained. If still someone is not willing to understand, it's his choice.

The system of gotras came into existence much - much before the advent of modern sciences including genetics. The reason why science and genetics was discussed here was to further scientifically support the advantages of the gotra system. The reason why the discussion on science/genetics got prolonged is for all to see - intransigence of some to have a viewpoint cast in stone at least from a scientific perspective no matter how flawed that perspective is.

Kapil rightly said why we follow the gotra system is not because of science because as said earlier, when the gotra system came into existence, science (at least modern sciences) was nowhere in sight.

The legal perspective is that laws are made and amended to take into consideration the will of the people and also at times the political windfalls. So, it cannot be said that the provision of banning same gotra marriages cannot be incorporated at some point in future considering the will of the people. Despite it being more than 60 years of our constitution, we don't have a uniform civil code which means that in actual there are separate personal/family laws for separate/different communities.

Calling such a senior and learned member as Dr. Rajpal Singh as being biased was in very bad taste. What Dr. Singh did was to put his opinion/viewpoint on the topic and at the same time hoping that some sort of conclusion more or less acceptable to all emerges. And, I believe that is the aim of every debate/discussion.

Finally, no one suggests or supports that the couple marrying within the same gotra should be killed. But just as the people who are free to marry within the same gotra, there are other people who are and should be free to break all social and other family ties with the former.

Some amongst us call the same gotra marriages as being avante garde, 'breaking the shackles, social advancement, etc., but then going by this trend the day is not far when people will apply the same logic to marrying within the family. Shameful!!

Genes and genetics - related parents

A relationship between related people, such as siblings or cousins, is called consanguinity. Related parents are more likely than unrelated parents to have children with health problems or disorders. The closer the genetic relationship between the parents, the greater the risk of birth defects for their children. Genetic counselling is available for a couple who suspect they may be related.
Related parents are more likely than unrelated parents to have children with health problems or genetic disorders. This is because the two parents share one or more common ancestors and so carry some of the same genetic material. If both partners carry the same inherited altered (mutated) gene, their offspring are more likely to have a genetic disorder.
Ordinarily, two unrelated parents will have enough variation in their genes to ensure that their child has at least one normal copy of each gene. However, people with a common ancestor may each carry a copy of the same altered gene. This can make genetic disorders more likely to occur.

For more detail plz check this Link:
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Genes_and_genetics_related_parents

 

[swaich]

Very succinctly explained. If still someone is not willing to understand, it's his choice.

The system of gotras came into existence much - much before the advent of modern sciences including genetics. The reason why science and genetics was discussed here was to further scientifically support the advantages of the gotra system. The reason why the discussion on science/genetics got prolonged is for all to see - intransigence of some to have a viewpoint cast in stone at least from a scientific perspective no matter how flawed that perspective is.

So now do you believe genes are transferred equally from both parents to a child? That was the bone of contention, right? I wonder why you havent commented on the reference material I posted. Can you still call me wrong in my basic understanding of genetics? But you have the gall to call me intransigent!

Kapil rightly said why we follow the gotra system is not because of science because as said earlier, when the gotra system came into existence, science (at least modern sciences) was nowhere in sight.

The legal perspective is that laws are made and amended to take into consideration the will of the people and also at times the political windfalls. So, it cannot be said that the provision of banning same gotra marriages cannot be incorporated at some point in future considering the will of the people. Despite it being more than 60 years of our constitution, we don't have a uniform civil code which means that in actual there are separate personal/family laws for separate/different communities.

Religious exceptions are made.

Calling such a senior and learned member as Dr. Rajpal Singh as being biased was in very bad taste. What Dr. Singh did was to put his opinion/viewpoint on the topic and at the same time hoping that some sort of conclusion more or less acceptable to all emerges. And, I believe that is the aim of every debate/discussion.

He did try to settle it but with a certain bias. I can paste his posts to support it, but leave it. And its ok. He's human and a member of this forum with is own views. No harm if he expresses it. I dont mind it.

Finally, no one suggests or supports that the couple marrying within the same gotra should be killed. But just as the people who are free to marry within the same gotra, there are other people who are and should be free to break all social and other family ties with the former.

People are here openly supporting that such couples can be killed. Maybe you purposely decided to be blind to those posts.

 

[swaich]

Lets just agree to disagree

I think there's no proven scientific basis for avoiding same gotra marriage especially in a highly inter mixed community like ours. While most here think there is.

At the same time many say lets ignore the scientific genetic cr@p and follow customs and traditions as they are.

And many say society's laws are sacrosanct as any law and therefore people that do not abide by it should be punished to whatever extent.

I disagree on most of these points. But I guess its best to leave it as it is. Time will probably be the best judge of which direction the society takes on such issues. There are other threads and issues to focus our energies on. Lets let this issue rest for now.



P.S. If you still have any thoughts that you want to convey to me..please PM me. I do not want to shy away from a valid discussion. But I wont like to respond to this thread from now on.

 

[vikasjat]

So now do you believe genes are transferred equally from both parents to a child? That was the bone of contention, right? I wonder why you havent commented on the reference material I posted. Can you still call me wrong in my basic understanding of genetics? But you have the gall to call me intransigent!


Religious exceptions are made.


He did try to settle it but with a certain bias. I can paste his posts to support it, but leave it. And its ok. He's human and a member of this forum with is own views. No harm if he expresses it. I dont mind it.


People are here openly supporting that such couples can be killed. Maybe you purposely decided to be blind to those posts.

Bhai tune jo link send kiye us se tune apni baat prove ki.
ab maine jo link send kiya h use detail me padh kar dekh le tujhe sabhi questions k answer mil jyenge.

Rahi baat ye ki parents me genes equally divide hote h to ye fact h......jo genes parents me hote h uski ek copy child me transfer hoti hai.
aur agar kisi me genetic disease hote hain to vo in genes k through he transfer hote hain....

Bhai tune kasam kha rakhi h ki tere baat sahi h......lekin yaha jab koi aur kuch bata raha h to use b sun le aur us per research kar k dekh le.....fir yaha sab ko bata ki kya research ki??

 

[vikasjat]

I think there's no proven scientific basis for avoiding same gotra marriage especially in a highly inter mixed community like ours. While most here think there is.

At the same time many say lets ignore the scientific genetic cr@p and follow customs and traditions as they are.

And many say society's laws are sacrosanct as any law and therefore people that do not abide by it should be punished to whatever extent.

I disagree on most of these points. But I guess its best to leave it as it is. Time will probably be the best judge of which direction the society takes on such issues. There are other threads and issues to focus our energies on. Lets let this issue rest for now.

bhai tere samne SCIENTIFIC and Custom dono he fact rakhe hain..........aur dono me kya sahi h ye tujhe b pata h ache se.

per ab tu man he gaya h to bot samajhdari ka kaam kara tane.....bhala ho tera.........

 

[sure]

bhai tere samne SCIENTIFIC and Custom dono he fact rakhe hain..........aur dono me kya sahi h ye tujhe b pata h ache se.

per ab tu man he gaya h to bot samajhdari ka kaam kara tane.....bhala ho tera.........

Yo manya nah hai Vikas, yo nue kah ka gaya hai ak dusre thread bhi sa jit eesnae infection ki suee chabhoni sa. ees bhai na time ka intjar hai arr puri society mae infection faillana hai, nue konya bera ak time aavega jab ghane badhe operation hoya kara sa, aur fir infection ko jad se khatam karna padta hai abhi toh sirf PARHEJ se kaam chala rahaein hain.

 

[abhikrana]

Your Royal Highness!! Yes I have the gall and the b_ _ls and the audacity to call all those who have closed their eyes and ears to the voice of reason as intransigent whether they like it or not.

If they still would like to go ahead with blowing their trumpet, they are more than free to do so and get their sisters and daughters married within the same gotra or even within the family by all means.

So now do you believe genes are transferred equally from both parents to a child? That was the bone of contention, right? I wonder why you havent commented on the reference material I posted. Can you still call me wrong in my basic understanding of genetics? But you have the gall to call me intransigent!

 

[swaich]

Bhai tune jo link send kiye us se tune apni baat prove ki.
ab maine jo link send kiya h use detail me padh kar dekh le tujhe sabhi questions k answer mil jyenge.

Rahi baat ye ki parents me genes equally divide hote h to ye fact h......jo genes parents me hote h uski ek copy child me transfer hoti hai.
aur agar kisi me genetic disease hote hain to vo in genes k through he transfer hote hain....

Bhai tune kasam kha rakhi h ki tere baat sahi h......lekin yaha jab koi aur kuch bata raha h to use b sun le aur us per research kar k dekh le.....fir yaha sab ko bata ki kya research ki??

Bhai aapko reply kar raha hun..since yoi posted when I was writing my last post..

I agree ki same gotra se marriage karne mein genetic risk hota hai...BUT this come with a condition...ki woh close relation ho...apne jo link post kiya usme cousins or siblings ki baat ki gayi hai...unse marriage karne mein risk hai....yeh main manta hun aur maine pehle bhi likha hai...BUT agar aaj ki baat karien...to same gotra mein marriage karne is not equal to marrying your cousin kyunki sam gotra families have diverged from each other after living seprately for so many centuries...is liye risk kam ho jata hai...

 

[vikasjat]

Bhai aapko reply kar raha hun..since yoi posted when I was writing my last post..

I agree ki same gotra se marriage karne mein genetic risk hota hai...BUT this come with a condition...ki woh close relation ho...apne jo link post kiya usme cousins or siblings ki baat ki gayi hai...unse marriage karne mein risk hai....yeh main manta hun aur maine pehle bhi likha hai...BUT agar aaj ki baat karien...to same gotra mein marriage karne is not equal to marrying your cousin kyunki sam gotra families have diverged from each other after living seprately for so many centuries...is liye risk kam ho jata hai...

ebb tak to family diverged thi kyuki hum apni parampara k according chal rahe hain.....lekin aaj agar teri same gotra wali parampara suru kar denge to kuch din baad ya e problem fir aayegi jo maine uper discuss ki hai.......

vo haryana me kahavat h na ki "Raad te to badd achi".

same gotra means same origin......same origin hoga to normal si baat h genes b kuch had tak same he honge.....lekin jab ye same gotra wala system suru hoga to genetic problems same hongi kyuki same genes next generation me similar parents se transfer ho rahe hain jis se genetic disorders to hoga he sath me immune system b week hoga..............so protect your next generation brother and drop this idea.........

 

[swaich]

ebb tak to family diverged thi kyuki hum apni parampara k according chal rahe hain.....lekin aaj agar teri same gotra wali parampara suru kar denge to kuch din baad ya e problem fir aayegi jo maine uper discuss ki hai.......

vo haryana me kahavat h na ki "Raad te to badd achi".

same gotra means same origin......same origin hoga to normal si baat h genes b kuch had tak same he honge.....lekin jab ye same gotra wala system suru hoga to genetic problems same hongi kyuki same genes next generation me similar parents se transfer ho rahe hain jis se genetic disorders to hoga he sath me immune system b week hoga..............so protect your next generation brother and drop this idea.........

Bhai .mere argument ka purpose ye nahi ki nayi parampara start karo..par yeh hai ki same gotra marriage karne walon ne ab tak koi genetic ya health risk increase nahi kiya hai..is liye unke upar itna strict action lena bhi jayaz nahi hai...Kya aap isse agree karte ho?

 

[vikasjat]

Bhai .mere argument ka purpose ye nahi ki nayi parampara start karo..par yeh hai ki same gotra marriage karne walon ne ab tak koi genetic ya health risk increase nahi kiya hai..is liye unke upar itna strict action lena bhi jayaz nahi hai...Kya aap isse agree karte ho?

Bhai main to AGREE KONI.................

ab increase na kara ho per aage to increase ho sake se. jeebe to mane va haryanavi kahavat likhi "Raad te to badd achi".
Bhai jo galat se vo to h e......same gotra marraige walo ko pehle mana kiya jata h,samjhaya b jata hai,per jab ni mante to marna padta hai (vo b unke gharwale marte hain apni samaj me izzat bachanae k liye).....vo kaha kre na ki PAGAL KUTTE NE TIME PER MAAR DE TO THEK HO SE,GAAM K LOGO NE KAM PADENGE.....ya baat aade suit kare se.

meri ek baat samajh na aati k thare te 3 GOTRA ni chode jate.....baki gotra ki chorri se unte byah kar lo yaar.

 

[swaich]

Bhai main to AGREE KONI.................

ab increase na kara ho per aage to increase ho sake se. jeebe to mane va haryanavi kahavat likhi "Raad te to badd achi".
Bhai jo galat se vo to h e......same gotra marraige walo ko pehle mana kiya jata h,samjhaya b jata hai,per jab ni mante to marna padta hai (vo b unke gharwale marte hain apni samaj me izzat bachanae k liye).....vo kaha kre na ki PAGAL KUTTE NE TIME PER MAAR DE TO THEK HO SE,GAAM K LOGO NE KAM PADENGE.....ya baat aade suit kare se.

meri ek baat samajh na aati k thare te 3 GOTRA ni chode jate.....baki gotra ki chorri se unte byah kar lo yaar.

Bhai aapki baat sahi hai...3 gotra chorhne koi mushkil baat nahin...

Par hum ghoom fir ke usi baat pe aa jate hain...ki agar kisi ne byaah kar bhi liya..aur hamein yeh pata hai ki uska koi health risk nahi hai...to us par itne strict action to mat lo..ki uski family uski jaan le le...thread ka topic to yahi poochta hai na...? itni badi punishment kyun?

Par haan jaisa ki aapne kaha...future mein risk ho sakta hai agar aap close relation se shaadi karo to...is liye close relation teeno gotra mein avoid karo...

 

[vikasjat]

Bhai aapki baat sahi hai...3 gotra chorhne koi mushkil baat nahin...

Par hum ghoom fir ke usi baat pe aa jate hain...ki agar kisi ne byaah kar bhi liya..aur hamein yeh pata hai ki uska koi health risk nahi hai...to us par itne strict action to mat lo..ki uski family uski jaan le le...thread ka topic to yahi poochta hai na...? itni badi punishment kyun?

Par haan jaisa ki aapne kaha...future mein risk ho sakta hai agar aap close relation se shaadi karo to...is liye close relation teeno gotra mein avoid karo...

bhai baat nu se ki 1-2 ne kar li aur ve chod diye.........yu india se aade dusre ne dekh k ghana kara kre......un ne dekh dekh k aur b karenge......yu kaam na ho isliye pehle e lagaam kardii kar do.

ebb milgya jawab ki strict kyu hon sa?????????

 

[samarkadian]

शाबास!! खेंच क ले लो !! जुन्सा जीतेगा उसने एक बोरी बादाम सत्येश्वर की ओड़ त इनाम में !!