Revolutions have a history of doubtful people, however, what gets counted is the faith in the success, however hard it might look.
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केजरीवाल एंड पार्टी
- Thread starter vikram.dahiya
- Start date
Revolutions have a history of doubtful people, however, what gets counted is the faith in the success, however hard it might look.
Hitler was definitely the worst "ideologue" among the human-beings !!
If Anna wants to be related with him, then, maybe he has found himself in Sangh's camp !!
A blind faith could prove conterproductive!
Arvind's policies sound filmy[Bollywoodish]!! These policies will never help in what we want.
Arvind's policies sound filmy[Bollywoodish]!! These policies will never help in what we want.
If Arvind is not the solution, what is the solution? Please elaborate point-wise so that I and others like me can focus on that other alternative/solution.
rekhasmriti
New member
" RTI has been used extensively by general public ever since it was introduced. This has certainly brought more transparency to the system."
Absolutely in agreement , however RTI was not launched over night --rather an effort of years .
Also it was not launched via launching some political party and so called anshans .
Agar RTI---bina kissi drama , anshans , n media attention ke launch hua -----toh why not other reforms . Its just tab how can someone would fulfill ambition of being in politics .
I read somewhere about same long time back when RTI was launched , coz I was curious aise kaise Govt jag gayee , tab read contribution of Aruna Roy n others for RTI. Nothing much I have found in support of my statement , I guess below mentioned link might support what I have said-
http://www.rtigateway.org.in/Documents/References/English/Reports/12.%20An%20article%20on%20RTI%20by%20Harsh%20Mander.pdf
Absolutely in agreement , however RTI was not launched over night --rather an effort of years .
Also it was not launched via launching some political party and so called anshans .
Agar RTI---bina kissi drama , anshans , n media attention ke launch hua -----toh why not other reforms . Its just tab how can someone would fulfill ambition of being in politics .
I read somewhere about same long time back when RTI was launched , coz I was curious aise kaise Govt jag gayee , tab read contribution of Aruna Roy n others for RTI. Nothing much I have found in support of my statement , I guess below mentioned link might support what I have said-
http://www.rtigateway.org.in/Documents/References/English/Reports/12.%20An%20article%20on%20RTI%20by%20Harsh%20Mander.pdf
Solution is improving governance. Good policies and transparency. There is plethora of material available online which you can refer to regarding the issue of governance.
Kezriwal Solution[JanLokpal] for corruption is highly flawed. It could create big problems in Indian Economy. It is ineffecitve in catching hidden corruption[Which is more than what we see in general].
Types of Corruption:
http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/03/the-iceberg-of-indian-corruption/
he following diagram depicts the iceberg of Indian corruption. The diagram shows that a small portion of India’s corruption is ‘visible’ to us, the vast bulk being hidden from view; ‘below water’.
1) Visible Corruption
The visible tip of the iceberg is corruption experienced by ‘common’ people. It comprises many types such as transactional, prioritizational and avoidance.
2) Hidden Deep Corruption
Below the visible corruption is an absolutely mammoth amount of possibly increasing, hidden corruption. This is where the bulk of the ‘money’ is made by politicians, in amounts that run into thousands of crores of rupees each year. The malaise of hidden corruption goes very deep into the vitals of India and provides evidence of its existence from time to time in frightening ways, as it festers for a long time and then erupts. We can’t easily ‘see’ it. But we know it exists when trains smash into each other, roads fall apart, millions of illegal migrants from Bangladesh swamp the country, police perpetrate major crimes and operate as organized criminals at night, and soldiers and farmers commit suicide. Corruption by ministers of police and defence has driven a deep knife into the heart of our security forces. Our border protection and possibly general security are in shambles. It is possible that India’s security could collapse one fine day like a termite-riddled house that has been chewed up, if deep corruption is not checked. We see this termite-like, hidden infestation at work in all government institutions such as public works departments, rural development programmes, public distribution system, education and health services. No major file, no appointment, no contract moves without such deep, fully institutionalized corruption.
3) Hidden Policy Corruption
But there is an even worse, more insidious and dangerous form of corruption not even thought about by most people. Policy corruption, or policy neglect on account of our political leaders devoting their entire waking energy to making money, saps the foundations of our country. Ministers of education spend most of their time in transfers and appointments of school teachers, for a fee. Other ministers consort with tenderers who bid for government contracts with a view to finding out who will pay them the most dakshina. That is the ‘regular’ deep corruption stuff. What happens with all this is that they are able to spend less than 20 per cent of their time on policy making and are forced to delegate policy and strategy to career bureaucrats. Not only are our bureaucrats blissfully ignorant of the world’s best practice in policy, their interests are often at cross-purposes with the interests of India. Many of them are focused primarily on wangling a stint in international organizations through their political contacts, when not making money on the side – which is the primary occupation of a large number of them now. Delegating policy to bureaucrats, namely our IAS officers, is a recipe for total disaster for India on a scale unimaginable by those who haven’t worked for decades within the government and don’t know all about what really happens! I have never seen more shoddy policy analysis than analysis which emerges from Indian government departments.
Ministers display a singular lack of excitement at the great opportunity they have to make a difference to the country. Our representatives simply do not care to question why things are not working and don’t care for finding out effective solutions. Policy-making is not why they joined politics in the first place; they joined politics only to make money. No minister I worked with ever asked any intelligent question on the strategic direction of his portfolio, or guided me on overall policy direction. I was on my own. And if, as a diligent officer, I did bring up such policy matters, there was bemusement when I explained various options through professional analysis. The damage done to India by chronic policy neglect by both ministers and bureaucrats, neglect which I call policy corruption, is far more devastating in impact than ‘regular’ corruption. This corruption leads to colossal damage – there are major policy errors such as investing our money in the wrong things, undertaking the wrong activities, not establishing systems to plan cities and infrastructure, non-functioning services and justice, non-existent schools, non-functioning law and order. No society can prosper, even if it has free markets, if its leaders are dishonest to the core and completely disinterested in good policy.
We therefore need to review our democratic system’s incentives to find out what it will take to attract some of our best people to politics. If we are to be only led by our most mediocre and corrupt people, then we had better get reconciled to perpetual mediocrity. The greatest barrier to entering politics is at the first gate itself – our electoral system. Tall barriers meet honest candidates who want to represent us, barriers deliberately designed to block out all good and competent people. The good news first – it is possible to remove these barriers, since they are all man-made. The bad news is that existing politicians will never remove these barriers, for that would mean the end to their opportunity to make quick money!
Kezriwal Solution[JanLokpal] for corruption is highly flawed. It could create big problems in Indian Economy. It is ineffecitve in catching hidden corruption[Which is more than what we see in general].
Types of Corruption:
http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/03/the-iceberg-of-indian-corruption/
he following diagram depicts the iceberg of Indian corruption. The diagram shows that a small portion of India’s corruption is ‘visible’ to us, the vast bulk being hidden from view; ‘below water’.
1) Visible Corruption
The visible tip of the iceberg is corruption experienced by ‘common’ people. It comprises many types such as transactional, prioritizational and avoidance.
- Transactional corruption is where the people have to pay a bribe over and above the government-established charge to get a service which they were entitled to get without the bribe. This form of corruption is relatively easy to fix, being driven by defects in the design of governance systems, defects which leave open areas of information asymmetry and discretion, which can then be arbitraged by government functionaries through non-transparent and unaccountable decisions. Where information technology has been cleverly used, such forms of corruption have reduced; for example, when the Indian Railways computerized its ticketing system the previously rampant corruption in ticketing dropped precipitously.
- Prioritizational corruption is where people get ‘out-of-turn’ favours through ‘speed money’. Such corruption was more relevant in the past where government interventions had resulted in shortages of telephone connections, cars and so on. This kind of corruption has significantly reduced after liberalization. Obtaining gas cylinders now doesn’t require bribing a host of people any longer.
- Avoidance corruption is where people pay a bribe to avoid a fine or wastage of time. This is still quite prevalent when people bribe a police constable to avoid a speeding ticket, a tax avoider pays a bribe to an income tax officer, or the truck driver avoids a detailed inspection from the police by handing over Rs.100 at each check post in India.
2) Hidden Deep Corruption
Below the visible corruption is an absolutely mammoth amount of possibly increasing, hidden corruption. This is where the bulk of the ‘money’ is made by politicians, in amounts that run into thousands of crores of rupees each year. The malaise of hidden corruption goes very deep into the vitals of India and provides evidence of its existence from time to time in frightening ways, as it festers for a long time and then erupts. We can’t easily ‘see’ it. But we know it exists when trains smash into each other, roads fall apart, millions of illegal migrants from Bangladesh swamp the country, police perpetrate major crimes and operate as organized criminals at night, and soldiers and farmers commit suicide. Corruption by ministers of police and defence has driven a deep knife into the heart of our security forces. Our border protection and possibly general security are in shambles. It is possible that India’s security could collapse one fine day like a termite-riddled house that has been chewed up, if deep corruption is not checked. We see this termite-like, hidden infestation at work in all government institutions such as public works departments, rural development programmes, public distribution system, education and health services. No major file, no appointment, no contract moves without such deep, fully institutionalized corruption.
3) Hidden Policy Corruption
But there is an even worse, more insidious and dangerous form of corruption not even thought about by most people. Policy corruption, or policy neglect on account of our political leaders devoting their entire waking energy to making money, saps the foundations of our country. Ministers of education spend most of their time in transfers and appointments of school teachers, for a fee. Other ministers consort with tenderers who bid for government contracts with a view to finding out who will pay them the most dakshina. That is the ‘regular’ deep corruption stuff. What happens with all this is that they are able to spend less than 20 per cent of their time on policy making and are forced to delegate policy and strategy to career bureaucrats. Not only are our bureaucrats blissfully ignorant of the world’s best practice in policy, their interests are often at cross-purposes with the interests of India. Many of them are focused primarily on wangling a stint in international organizations through their political contacts, when not making money on the side – which is the primary occupation of a large number of them now. Delegating policy to bureaucrats, namely our IAS officers, is a recipe for total disaster for India on a scale unimaginable by those who haven’t worked for decades within the government and don’t know all about what really happens! I have never seen more shoddy policy analysis than analysis which emerges from Indian government departments.
Ministers display a singular lack of excitement at the great opportunity they have to make a difference to the country. Our representatives simply do not care to question why things are not working and don’t care for finding out effective solutions. Policy-making is not why they joined politics in the first place; they joined politics only to make money. No minister I worked with ever asked any intelligent question on the strategic direction of his portfolio, or guided me on overall policy direction. I was on my own. And if, as a diligent officer, I did bring up such policy matters, there was bemusement when I explained various options through professional analysis. The damage done to India by chronic policy neglect by both ministers and bureaucrats, neglect which I call policy corruption, is far more devastating in impact than ‘regular’ corruption. This corruption leads to colossal damage – there are major policy errors such as investing our money in the wrong things, undertaking the wrong activities, not establishing systems to plan cities and infrastructure, non-functioning services and justice, non-existent schools, non-functioning law and order. No society can prosper, even if it has free markets, if its leaders are dishonest to the core and completely disinterested in good policy.
We therefore need to review our democratic system’s incentives to find out what it will take to attract some of our best people to politics. If we are to be only led by our most mediocre and corrupt people, then we had better get reconciled to perpetual mediocrity. The greatest barrier to entering politics is at the first gate itself – our electoral system. Tall barriers meet honest candidates who want to represent us, barriers deliberately designed to block out all good and competent people. The good news first – it is possible to remove these barriers, since they are all man-made. The bad news is that existing politicians will never remove these barriers, for that would mean the end to their opportunity to make quick money!
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http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/09/the-...out-changing-policies-guess-what-will-happen/
a) Reality: A Lokpal can’t stop the generation of corruption
India’s socialist policies put excessive power and discretion in the hands of decision-makers. Each law that allows a politician or bureaucrat to interfere in economic activity creates an opportunity for corruption. The Lokpal does not change such policies, nor reform the electoral system to reduce the need for corrupt money during elections. Therefore, the Lokpal cannot prevent the continuous generation of corruption. It will be far more effective if we change socialist policies.
b) Reality: The Lokpal can’t catch even a fraction of the corrupt
A Lokpal will become viable and effective if only one per cent (or less) of India’s politicians and bureaucrats are corrupt. But when 99 percent of them are corrupt, then catching a few corrupt people here or there will hardly make a difference. The cancer must be addressed at the source.
c) Reality: Corruption “charges” will increase because of the Lokpal
Because the corrupt will now have to factor in the (presumably slightly) higher probability of being caught, the “rate” they demand for their “services” will increase.
d) Reality: Corruption will be driven even more underground
The Lokpal, under the current system, will merely drive corruption more underground – into more hidden methods. Greater outflows of corrupt money from India will occur to Switzerland or other tax havens. In this “game” of corruption, it is best to stop corruption in the first place, not to waste precious time and resources in chasing corrupt people across the world.
e) Reality: The big fish will escape
Under the current system, big fish can easily access various sophisticated methods of corruption. They can also hire expensive lawyers to exploit loopholes in the legal system to delay and subvert justice, should any case be launched against them. In general, the big fish will escape scrutiny (or punishment) and the Lokpal will be forced to focus on small fry.
f) Reality: Government inefficiency will increase
The Indian Constitution provides extraordinary protections to public servants. There is therefore virtually no way available for governments to punish public servants who do not perform their work properly. If their opportunities for corruption are reduced then public servants are likely to even further slow down their work, leading to total paralysis of governance. The Lokpal (if it becomes even slightly effective, and therefore reduces corruption) will end up putting a severe brake on India’s economic growth.
h) Reality: Lokpal could itself become corrupt
Corrupt politicians and government servants have plenty of money to bribe investigative agencies – and judges. Under the current dispensation there is very significant corruption both in the government and judiciary. It is not difficult to see a situation, particularly with lowly paid Lokpal employees, when the Lokpal officials start accepting bribes.
i) Reality: Lokpal can’t deliver results because of India’s court system
The Lokpal cannot deliver results because it does not control the courts. As Swami Aiyar has pointed out:Even if the Lokpal controls the CBI, it will have no control over the courts. These seem incapable of convicting any resourceful person beyond appeals within his or her lifetime. Little will be achieved if the Lokpal initiates a thousand cases that then drag on for decades, with the accused out on bail.FTI does not recommend scrapping the principles of natural justice for those charged with corruption. We need systemic reforms that include the policies outlined earlier, as well as a strong justice system to quickly and effectively punish the corrupt.
6. Other questions people have regarding the Lokpal
a) What are the mechanisms apart from Lokpal to stop corruption?
Alternative mechanisms to reducing corruption have been outlined above. These are far more effective and involve two key changes:
(i) Reduce the need for corruption: ensure electoral reforms that motivate good people to enter politics, and pay a certain amount per valid vote cast to candidates; and
(ii) Reduce the opportunity for corruption: remove socialist policies so that people can undertake economic activity without unnecessary government regulation.Currently, no political party offers such systemic reforms in India. Without political leadership, however, such reforms cannot be implemented. FTI is a platform for those who understand such reforms to step forward and contest elections. Only then will such systemic reforms be introduced, bringing an end to corruption.
b) Why does FTI not support the Lokpal, given that Hong Kong has a Lokpal-like model?
Hong Kong is highly ranked on Transparency International rankings (currently No. 12, below countries like Australia and New Zealand which do not have any Lokpal).Not very long ago, Hong Kong was a very corrupt country. Its reforms, do not include just an Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC, which started in 1974), but a wide range of policy initiatives such as good governance, world-best economic policy and high quality education. The existence of ICAC should not be seen in isolation from these broader reforms. Indonesia has tried to copy the Hong Kong model and has failed, because it has not adopted the free market economic model of Hong Kong.As Offstumped has pointed out:“Indonesia’s corruption eradication commission, one message screams out —Indiadoes not need to make Indonesia’s mistakes with the proposed Lokpal Bill. It has been nearly 10 years since the KPK was established by law inIndonesia. Ten years on, no surprises: Corruption has not been eradicated fromIndonesia. Far from eliminating corruption, KPK continues to be at the centre of political intrigue in Indonesia.”A Lokpal cannot succeed in removing corruption without a host of far more basic reforms. FTI believes that there is a place for Lokpal in India’s governance, but not today. Only in due course, as part of an entire suite of governance and economic reforms.
http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/09/the-...out-changing-policies-guess-what-will-happen/
a) Reality: A Lokpal can’t stop the generation of corruption
India’s socialist policies put excessive power and discretion in the hands of decision-makers. Each law that allows a politician or bureaucrat to interfere in economic activity creates an opportunity for corruption. The Lokpal does not change such policies, nor reform the electoral system to reduce the need for corrupt money during elections. Therefore, the Lokpal cannot prevent the continuous generation of corruption. It will be far more effective if we change socialist policies.
b) Reality: The Lokpal can’t catch even a fraction of the corrupt
A Lokpal will become viable and effective if only one per cent (or less) of India’s politicians and bureaucrats are corrupt. But when 99 percent of them are corrupt, then catching a few corrupt people here or there will hardly make a difference. The cancer must be addressed at the source.
c) Reality: Corruption “charges” will increase because of the Lokpal
Because the corrupt will now have to factor in the (presumably slightly) higher probability of being caught, the “rate” they demand for their “services” will increase.
d) Reality: Corruption will be driven even more underground
The Lokpal, under the current system, will merely drive corruption more underground – into more hidden methods. Greater outflows of corrupt money from India will occur to Switzerland or other tax havens. In this “game” of corruption, it is best to stop corruption in the first place, not to waste precious time and resources in chasing corrupt people across the world.
e) Reality: The big fish will escape
Under the current system, big fish can easily access various sophisticated methods of corruption. They can also hire expensive lawyers to exploit loopholes in the legal system to delay and subvert justice, should any case be launched against them. In general, the big fish will escape scrutiny (or punishment) and the Lokpal will be forced to focus on small fry.
f) Reality: Government inefficiency will increase
The Indian Constitution provides extraordinary protections to public servants. There is therefore virtually no way available for governments to punish public servants who do not perform their work properly. If their opportunities for corruption are reduced then public servants are likely to even further slow down their work, leading to total paralysis of governance. The Lokpal (if it becomes even slightly effective, and therefore reduces corruption) will end up putting a severe brake on India’s economic growth.
h) Reality: Lokpal could itself become corrupt
Corrupt politicians and government servants have plenty of money to bribe investigative agencies – and judges. Under the current dispensation there is very significant corruption both in the government and judiciary. It is not difficult to see a situation, particularly with lowly paid Lokpal employees, when the Lokpal officials start accepting bribes.
i) Reality: Lokpal can’t deliver results because of India’s court system
The Lokpal cannot deliver results because it does not control the courts. As Swami Aiyar has pointed out:Even if the Lokpal controls the CBI, it will have no control over the courts. These seem incapable of convicting any resourceful person beyond appeals within his or her lifetime. Little will be achieved if the Lokpal initiates a thousand cases that then drag on for decades, with the accused out on bail.FTI does not recommend scrapping the principles of natural justice for those charged with corruption. We need systemic reforms that include the policies outlined earlier, as well as a strong justice system to quickly and effectively punish the corrupt.
6. Other questions people have regarding the Lokpal
a) What are the mechanisms apart from Lokpal to stop corruption?
Alternative mechanisms to reducing corruption have been outlined above. These are far more effective and involve two key changes:
(i) Reduce the need for corruption: ensure electoral reforms that motivate good people to enter politics, and pay a certain amount per valid vote cast to candidates; and
(ii) Reduce the opportunity for corruption: remove socialist policies so that people can undertake economic activity without unnecessary government regulation.Currently, no political party offers such systemic reforms in India. Without political leadership, however, such reforms cannot be implemented. FTI is a platform for those who understand such reforms to step forward and contest elections. Only then will such systemic reforms be introduced, bringing an end to corruption.
b) Why does FTI not support the Lokpal, given that Hong Kong has a Lokpal-like model?
Hong Kong is highly ranked on Transparency International rankings (currently No. 12, below countries like Australia and New Zealand which do not have any Lokpal).Not very long ago, Hong Kong was a very corrupt country. Its reforms, do not include just an Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC, which started in 1974), but a wide range of policy initiatives such as good governance, world-best economic policy and high quality education. The existence of ICAC should not be seen in isolation from these broader reforms. Indonesia has tried to copy the Hong Kong model and has failed, because it has not adopted the free market economic model of Hong Kong.As Offstumped has pointed out:“Indonesia’s corruption eradication commission, one message screams out —Indiadoes not need to make Indonesia’s mistakes with the proposed Lokpal Bill. It has been nearly 10 years since the KPK was established by law inIndonesia. Ten years on, no surprises: Corruption has not been eradicated fromIndonesia. Far from eliminating corruption, KPK continues to be at the centre of political intrigue in Indonesia.”A Lokpal cannot succeed in removing corruption without a host of far more basic reforms. FTI believes that there is a place for Lokpal in India’s governance, but not today. Only in due course, as part of an entire suite of governance and economic reforms.
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c) Won’t a Lokpal help create new government jobs?
Indeed, the Lokpal will create new jobs but creating government cannot be a valid reason to have a Lokpal. Economic growth & prosperity is never created through government jobs. India needs policies of liberty that will create opportunities for millions to earn their livelihood.
d) Since the poor have to constantly interface with the state, won’t the Lokpal provide a check to corruption at lower level of bureaucracy?
Unless economic policies and the system of governance is changed, villagers in India will not be able to escape from chronic corruption (such as corrupt tahsildars and other land records staff). Villagers, being illiterate, do not have the capacity or resources to lodge (and pursue) complaints with the Lokpal.Villagers have not been able to utilise existing institutions like state vigilance bodies and police because of inability or fea. The Lokpal’s rules and procedures will preclude the possibility of justice for villagers. The corrupt will go scot free even if complaints are lodged against them, due to the sheer numbers involved.Far better to build systems that preclude corruption in the first place. Trying to fix the problem of corruption after it has established itself is a far more difficult (even impossible) task.
e) What is FTI’s view on the level of corruption that can a Lokpal can reduce?
The jury is out on this important question. However, for reasons given above, FTI believes that Lokpal will not reduce corruption, and will probably increase it and drive it underground.
f) How much will the Lokpal cost the taxpayer?
This will depend on the nature and design of the Lokpal. But it will not be cheap. Unfortunately, there will be almost no social gain from this institution. So taxpayers will spend money on the Lokpal, even as the corrupt officials and politicians ofIndia continue their loot.ConclusionAll Indians all angry with our corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. However, we should use our head, not our emotions.FTI agrees with and supports, in principle, IAC people’s movement against corruption. But FTI believes that (at this stage – i.e., without changing the policies of socialism, and ensuring that good people are able to contest elections) the Lokpal will make no difference to the lives of Indians, and could even make things worse in a number of ways.FTI therefore asks the Indian people to seek solutions that will actually work.The people of India have awakened due to the IAC movement. But it is important to understand that the solution does not lie in a Lokpal, but in a package of reforms that will essentially abolish socialism and make Indians free.FTI invites you to support the team to provide India with modern, effective governance.It is hard to remove the socialistic mindset of Indian politicians who think that voters want such policies. It is up to the educated class to show voters that demanding subsidies and handouts from politicians is not the right way to eliminate poverty. They voter must demand good governance, good education, not charity.The poor will become prosperous through freedom. On this journey, a social minimum (which includes high quality private school education for all children and a guaranteed top-up to eliminate poverty) will support those who falter on this journey towards freedom, integrity, and prosperity.In simple language, let’s drain the swamp so that mosquitoes don’t breed. It is not a sensible idea to kill the mosquitoes, one at a time.
c) Won’t a Lokpal help create new government jobs?
Indeed, the Lokpal will create new jobs but creating government cannot be a valid reason to have a Lokpal. Economic growth & prosperity is never created through government jobs. India needs policies of liberty that will create opportunities for millions to earn their livelihood.
d) Since the poor have to constantly interface with the state, won’t the Lokpal provide a check to corruption at lower level of bureaucracy?
Unless economic policies and the system of governance is changed, villagers in India will not be able to escape from chronic corruption (such as corrupt tahsildars and other land records staff). Villagers, being illiterate, do not have the capacity or resources to lodge (and pursue) complaints with the Lokpal.Villagers have not been able to utilise existing institutions like state vigilance bodies and police because of inability or fea. The Lokpal’s rules and procedures will preclude the possibility of justice for villagers. The corrupt will go scot free even if complaints are lodged against them, due to the sheer numbers involved.Far better to build systems that preclude corruption in the first place. Trying to fix the problem of corruption after it has established itself is a far more difficult (even impossible) task.
e) What is FTI’s view on the level of corruption that can a Lokpal can reduce?
The jury is out on this important question. However, for reasons given above, FTI believes that Lokpal will not reduce corruption, and will probably increase it and drive it underground.
f) How much will the Lokpal cost the taxpayer?
This will depend on the nature and design of the Lokpal. But it will not be cheap. Unfortunately, there will be almost no social gain from this institution. So taxpayers will spend money on the Lokpal, even as the corrupt officials and politicians ofIndia continue their loot.ConclusionAll Indians all angry with our corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. However, we should use our head, not our emotions.FTI agrees with and supports, in principle, IAC people’s movement against corruption. But FTI believes that (at this stage – i.e., without changing the policies of socialism, and ensuring that good people are able to contest elections) the Lokpal will make no difference to the lives of Indians, and could even make things worse in a number of ways.FTI therefore asks the Indian people to seek solutions that will actually work.The people of India have awakened due to the IAC movement. But it is important to understand that the solution does not lie in a Lokpal, but in a package of reforms that will essentially abolish socialism and make Indians free.FTI invites you to support the team to provide India with modern, effective governance.It is hard to remove the socialistic mindset of Indian politicians who think that voters want such policies. It is up to the educated class to show voters that demanding subsidies and handouts from politicians is not the right way to eliminate poverty. They voter must demand good governance, good education, not charity.The poor will become prosperous through freedom. On this journey, a social minimum (which includes high quality private school education for all children and a guaranteed top-up to eliminate poverty) will support those who falter on this journey towards freedom, integrity, and prosperity.In simple language, let’s drain the swamp so that mosquitoes don’t breed. It is not a sensible idea to kill the mosquitoes, one at a time.
Indeed a very good analysis of the types of corruption and a few FAQs which generally have assumptions as answers instead of concrete and implementable answers.
The solution or alternative that I gather from your reply is that we need to have good governance and transparency. Who would bring that governance or transparency?? The Congress or the BJP?? OR THE CIVIL SOCIETY and the mango men members of the civil society who have recently entered into electoral politics?
Well, most of the criticism directed towards Arvind is founded on unestablished assumptions and unfounded fears. He talks tough against corruption and the corrupt and follows it by action like he did in Farukhabad to which he was dared by the so-called educated Goonda Salman.
He dared to take on the corruption of the powerful first family of India when no one including the powerful and influential media dared to touch upon the topic.
Arvind at least deserves a chance in electoral politics even if it were to prove him wrong (by his detractors).
This unnecessary criticism of Arvind which is devoid of any merit whatsoever is more of an attempt by the mainstream political parties to use one way or the other to tarnish his image even though unsuccessfully because they have not been able to find anything concrete against him.
Indian economy will function better by giving it a corruption free environment. It would help foreign companies establish new offices within a few days instead of the months that it takes currently where now it requires palms to be greased at every level.
Especially to all those Congressies: Indian economy is not hurt by bringing to light corruption and the corrupt, but it is ACTUALLY HURT BY THE CORRUPTION AND THE CORRUPT. By criticizing Arvind and people like him, we are shooting the messenger instead of the well-entrenched players.
The solution or alternative that I gather from your reply is that we need to have good governance and transparency. Who would bring that governance or transparency?? The Congress or the BJP?? OR THE CIVIL SOCIETY and the mango men members of the civil society who have recently entered into electoral politics?
Well, most of the criticism directed towards Arvind is founded on unestablished assumptions and unfounded fears. He talks tough against corruption and the corrupt and follows it by action like he did in Farukhabad to which he was dared by the so-called educated Goonda Salman.
He dared to take on the corruption of the powerful first family of India when no one including the powerful and influential media dared to touch upon the topic.
Arvind at least deserves a chance in electoral politics even if it were to prove him wrong (by his detractors).
This unnecessary criticism of Arvind which is devoid of any merit whatsoever is more of an attempt by the mainstream political parties to use one way or the other to tarnish his image even though unsuccessfully because they have not been able to find anything concrete against him.
Indian economy will function better by giving it a corruption free environment. It would help foreign companies establish new offices within a few days instead of the months that it takes currently where now it requires palms to be greased at every level.
Especially to all those Congressies: Indian economy is not hurt by bringing to light corruption and the corrupt, but it is ACTUALLY HURT BY THE CORRUPTION AND THE CORRUPT. By criticizing Arvind and people like him, we are shooting the messenger instead of the well-entrenched players.
Solution is improving governance. Good policies and transparency. There is plethora of material available online which you can refer to regarding the issue of governance.
Kezriwal Solution[JanLokpal] for corruption is highly flawed. It could create big problems in Indian Economy. It is ineffecitve in catching hidden corruption[Which is more than what we see in general].
Types of Corruption:
http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/03/the-iceberg-of-indian-corruption/
he following diagram depicts the iceberg of Indian corruption. The diagram shows that a small portion of India’s corruption is ‘visible’ to us, the vast bulk being hidden from view; ‘below water’.
1) Visible Corruption
The visible tip of the iceberg is corruption experienced by ‘common’ people. It comprises many types such as transactional, prioritizational and avoidance.
- Transactional corruption is where the people have to pay a bribe over and above the government-established charge to get a service which they were entitled to get without the bribe. This form of corruption is relatively easy to fix, being driven by defects in the design of governance systems, defects which leave open areas of information asymmetry and discretion, which can then be arbitraged by government functionaries through non-transparent and unaccountable decisions. Where information technology has been cleverly used, such forms of corruption have reduced; for example, when the Indian Railways computerized its ticketing system the previously rampant corruption in ticketing dropped precipitously.
Did you read about Kejriwal's link to Aruna Roy, his reform guru and how she left him in his crusade of politics?
Arvind's ideology is anti-democractic. His solution is anti-democratic. That's why Subhramanium Swami also called him "VamPanthi". I am not here to quibble but yes if there are huge problems with something, then its worth to ponder. I don't go blindly after anyone rather spend my time and do my own research and understand. I always admire Arvind and Anna for their crusade against corruption and bring this problem to center. However, its worth to look into their solutions and ideology. Their main problem is that they are undermining democracy and the constitution. What they have proposed must be scruitnised and should be discussed all over the country. It cannot be my way or high way. My question is: how can they claim that their version of Janlokpal is only effective whereas what others are proposing is a trash! Have they done any research. Has any constitutional body ever approved it. Introducing draconian laws never help. It is well proved and a fact. Countries like New Zealand, Australia do not have Janlokpal but still these countries have least corruption in the world. What is special with JanLokpal? Indonesia implemented it but nothing has improved there. Country is still struggling with corruption. Janlokpal bill consequences could be very high. It undermine constitutional bodies. A thorough research about it would prove that it may be an ineffective way of tackling corruption. As a wrote earlier. Solution lies in making system transparent, improving governance not in intoducing draconian laws!
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Apology in advance for Copy and Paste:
http://sabhlokcity.com/tag/lokpal-bill/
The Lokpal Bill does not tackle any of the root causes of corruption. The bill amounts to an unparalleled concentration of power in one institution that will literally be able to summon any institution and command any kind of police, judicial and investigative power. In other words, in a situation where the problem is power, we create an entity that has even more power. It has even appointed officials instead of elected ones.
There are many loopholes in the Bill which I have discussed below:a) The three Pillars of Indian Democracy – namely the Legislature, Executive and Judiciary – keep checks and balances on the other, and so they must remain separate, because that’s the only way to ensure that there is no abuse of power. The Jan Lokpal intends to disturb this fine balance by virtually creating a fourth pillar. It intends to create an Executive outside the constitutional framework, answerable to nobody. Chances of such an organization getting corrupted by the sheer lust for power are much greater than the Executive functioning within a constitutional framework, where checks and balances ensure accountability
b) The appointment of the Lokpal will be done by a – Bharat Ratna awardees, Nobel prize winners of Indian origin, Magsaysay award winners, Senior Judges of Supreme and High Courts, the Chairperson of the National Human Rights Commission, the Comptroller and Auditor General of India, the Chief Election Commissioner, and members of the outgoing Lokpal board and the Chairpersons of both houses of Parliament. Only one person, the chairperson of the Lok Sabha, is a democratically elected person. The idea of a Jan Lokpal is modeled on an Ombudsman but there is no example where a country decided that Nobel Prize winners and those awarded with state conferred honors can be given the task of selecting those entrusted with the power to punish people.
c) The autonomy and independence of the Judiciary is protected under the Constitution, which allows a member of the higher Judiciary to be removed only through the cumbersome impeachment process. The intent was to ensure that justice is administered without fear or favor. The Jan Lokpal proposal of putting higher judiciary under Lokpal is absurd. The consequences are even worse, when you consider that under it the Jan Lokpal Bill will have independent investigating and prosecuting agencies. Will any judge ever dare differ with the views of a prosecutor of the Jan Lokpal since he might face prosecution himself if his orders are misunderstood? Is it logical that Investigation and Prosecution be done by the same agency?
d) Since this country understands the language of cricket well, just try to imagine Indian captain Dhoni on field. During the course of play, several critical decisions need to be taken and it should be best left to the captain on the field to do that. If we start with the premise that Dhoni is likely to falter and should be under strict scrutiny for each and every decision he takes on field, it will be completely impossible for him to take out-of-box decisions. Most of the audience might not agree with his decision to let the last over of the match bowled by a new bowler but we cannot raise a suspicion every time he does so. If we don’t want the whole functioning of the government come to standstill on petty issues, the Prime Minister may be best kept out of Jan Lokpal.e) We have to understand, there are enough strong laws available in this country to address literally every issue under the Sun. Implementation of a new bill will require a strong will and huge additional resources and that is where the whole problem lies. Consumer courts were created to give speedy justice but today a large number of cases are pending before it just because of lack of resources. The law was always there to arrest the likes of Mr. Kalmadi or Mr. Raja but it could happen only when it was backed by a strong will to do it. State Lokayukta is there in India in as many as 18 states today but only a Santosh Hegde could make a difference in Karnataka. There are strong laws against illegal construction, land grabbing and even mining, the need of the hour is to implement it and not spend time into making additional laws.
f) The resource crunch will destabilize the Jan Lokpal. If both the Central govt. and State govt. employees are to be brought under its scanner, the number of people it will have to cover will be around 10-12million. Obviously, huge machinery will be needed to deal with this. Also, the same system of corrupted civil servants, politicians, anti-corruption agencies, judges, media, civil society groups and ordinary citizens will work under the Lokpal to deal with corruption and just because they will work for Lokpal, will they become incorruptible? Won’t it mean adding another bunch of bribes to the long list of existing ones?
g) There is NO right to appeal – The right to at least one appeal against an order, which affects someone adversely, is inherent in the Constitution. There is no specific clause regarding appeals in the Jan Lok Pal Bill, and that is unconstitutional, to say the least.
Noted political analyst Pratap Bhanu Mehta has nicely summed up the addition of Jan Lokpal as one more law. He says, “To many of us, this proposal seems like the way we approached educational reform: if BA is not good quality, introduce MA; since MA does not work, have MPhil; since we can’t trust our PhDs, have a further NET exam, endlessly deferring to new institutions at the top of the food chain without attending to basics.”
I sincerely feel that Jan Lokpal is a Medicine which has severe side-effects. While there are many ways which can help us effectively fight corruption arising out of political nexus, there is only one way to fight social corruption:
The RTI legislation can be the most effective tool in eradicating corruption. The many government decisions taken on critical issues have to be brought under public scrutiny and it is how the government can be made accountable for its decisions. Another effective way of dealing with corruption arising out of political nexus is with the help of electoral reforms like proportional representation, state funding of elections which will lead to uniform spending of candidates and most importantly the right to recall of elected representatives.
Corruption in day to day life is more of a social issue. It is a value system where when I benefit its desirable, when I am the victim, it’s not. Only a true introspection can get us to its roots. It has to be tackled from inside and only then a Lokpal can be effective.
I've repeatedly explained that the Lokpal Bill does NOT address the causes of corruption. It merely tries to catch those who are corrupt. That would be fine if 1 per cent were corrupt. But the SOCIALIST POLICIES in India GENERATE CORRUPT people in the MILLIONS (including ALL Ministers). So the task being given to the LP isTOTALLY futile.
Without policy change the disease of corruption CANNOT be cured. It is NECESSARY to build a system where the incentives are designed to ensure that only the honest enter, and policies do not generate corruption.
But, of course, that requires POLICY thinking - which is clearly well beyond the ken of people like Anna Hazare or even "smart" people Arvind Kejriwal, and Kiran Bedi - it would appear.
ONLY well-thought out policies, based on a sound understanding of ECONOMIC incentives, work in real life. Everything else is a waste. But such deep thinking is so rare as to be almost totally absent in India. (Hence the socialist nightmare that India is still going through – its SHODDY thinking has cost it millions of lost lives and created unbelievably bad governance.)
http://sabhlokcity.com/tag/lokpal-bill/
The Lokpal Bill does not tackle any of the root causes of corruption. The bill amounts to an unparalleled concentration of power in one institution that will literally be able to summon any institution and command any kind of police, judicial and investigative power. In other words, in a situation where the problem is power, we create an entity that has even more power. It has even appointed officials instead of elected ones.
There are many loopholes in the Bill which I have discussed below:a) The three Pillars of Indian Democracy – namely the Legislature, Executive and Judiciary – keep checks and balances on the other, and so they must remain separate, because that’s the only way to ensure that there is no abuse of power. The Jan Lokpal intends to disturb this fine balance by virtually creating a fourth pillar. It intends to create an Executive outside the constitutional framework, answerable to nobody. Chances of such an organization getting corrupted by the sheer lust for power are much greater than the Executive functioning within a constitutional framework, where checks and balances ensure accountability
b) The appointment of the Lokpal will be done by a – Bharat Ratna awardees, Nobel prize winners of Indian origin, Magsaysay award winners, Senior Judges of Supreme and High Courts, the Chairperson of the National Human Rights Commission, the Comptroller and Auditor General of India, the Chief Election Commissioner, and members of the outgoing Lokpal board and the Chairpersons of both houses of Parliament. Only one person, the chairperson of the Lok Sabha, is a democratically elected person. The idea of a Jan Lokpal is modeled on an Ombudsman but there is no example where a country decided that Nobel Prize winners and those awarded with state conferred honors can be given the task of selecting those entrusted with the power to punish people.
c) The autonomy and independence of the Judiciary is protected under the Constitution, which allows a member of the higher Judiciary to be removed only through the cumbersome impeachment process. The intent was to ensure that justice is administered without fear or favor. The Jan Lokpal proposal of putting higher judiciary under Lokpal is absurd. The consequences are even worse, when you consider that under it the Jan Lokpal Bill will have independent investigating and prosecuting agencies. Will any judge ever dare differ with the views of a prosecutor of the Jan Lokpal since he might face prosecution himself if his orders are misunderstood? Is it logical that Investigation and Prosecution be done by the same agency?
d) Since this country understands the language of cricket well, just try to imagine Indian captain Dhoni on field. During the course of play, several critical decisions need to be taken and it should be best left to the captain on the field to do that. If we start with the premise that Dhoni is likely to falter and should be under strict scrutiny for each and every decision he takes on field, it will be completely impossible for him to take out-of-box decisions. Most of the audience might not agree with his decision to let the last over of the match bowled by a new bowler but we cannot raise a suspicion every time he does so. If we don’t want the whole functioning of the government come to standstill on petty issues, the Prime Minister may be best kept out of Jan Lokpal.e) We have to understand, there are enough strong laws available in this country to address literally every issue under the Sun. Implementation of a new bill will require a strong will and huge additional resources and that is where the whole problem lies. Consumer courts were created to give speedy justice but today a large number of cases are pending before it just because of lack of resources. The law was always there to arrest the likes of Mr. Kalmadi or Mr. Raja but it could happen only when it was backed by a strong will to do it. State Lokayukta is there in India in as many as 18 states today but only a Santosh Hegde could make a difference in Karnataka. There are strong laws against illegal construction, land grabbing and even mining, the need of the hour is to implement it and not spend time into making additional laws.
f) The resource crunch will destabilize the Jan Lokpal. If both the Central govt. and State govt. employees are to be brought under its scanner, the number of people it will have to cover will be around 10-12million. Obviously, huge machinery will be needed to deal with this. Also, the same system of corrupted civil servants, politicians, anti-corruption agencies, judges, media, civil society groups and ordinary citizens will work under the Lokpal to deal with corruption and just because they will work for Lokpal, will they become incorruptible? Won’t it mean adding another bunch of bribes to the long list of existing ones?
g) There is NO right to appeal – The right to at least one appeal against an order, which affects someone adversely, is inherent in the Constitution. There is no specific clause regarding appeals in the Jan Lok Pal Bill, and that is unconstitutional, to say the least.
Noted political analyst Pratap Bhanu Mehta has nicely summed up the addition of Jan Lokpal as one more law. He says, “To many of us, this proposal seems like the way we approached educational reform: if BA is not good quality, introduce MA; since MA does not work, have MPhil; since we can’t trust our PhDs, have a further NET exam, endlessly deferring to new institutions at the top of the food chain without attending to basics.”
I sincerely feel that Jan Lokpal is a Medicine which has severe side-effects. While there are many ways which can help us effectively fight corruption arising out of political nexus, there is only one way to fight social corruption:
The RTI legislation can be the most effective tool in eradicating corruption. The many government decisions taken on critical issues have to be brought under public scrutiny and it is how the government can be made accountable for its decisions. Another effective way of dealing with corruption arising out of political nexus is with the help of electoral reforms like proportional representation, state funding of elections which will lead to uniform spending of candidates and most importantly the right to recall of elected representatives.
Corruption in day to day life is more of a social issue. It is a value system where when I benefit its desirable, when I am the victim, it’s not. Only a true introspection can get us to its roots. It has to be tackled from inside and only then a Lokpal can be effective.
I've repeatedly explained that the Lokpal Bill does NOT address the causes of corruption. It merely tries to catch those who are corrupt. That would be fine if 1 per cent were corrupt. But the SOCIALIST POLICIES in India GENERATE CORRUPT people in the MILLIONS (including ALL Ministers). So the task being given to the LP isTOTALLY futile.
Without policy change the disease of corruption CANNOT be cured. It is NECESSARY to build a system where the incentives are designed to ensure that only the honest enter, and policies do not generate corruption.
But, of course, that requires POLICY thinking - which is clearly well beyond the ken of people like Anna Hazare or even "smart" people Arvind Kejriwal, and Kiran Bedi - it would appear.
ONLY well-thought out policies, based on a sound understanding of ECONOMIC incentives, work in real life. Everything else is a waste. But such deep thinking is so rare as to be almost totally absent in India. (Hence the socialist nightmare that India is still going through – its SHODDY thinking has cost it millions of lost lives and created unbelievably bad governance.)
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I respect democracy and our great constitution. But which constitution and democracy are we talking about? The constitution given by the founding fathers including Ambedkar or the constitution that these rascals have made it into by so many amendments to suit their political needs. An example - PM Indira Gandhi made an amendment to the constitution that election to the office of PM cannot be challenged in Courts when her election was challenged by Jai Prakash Narayan. There were amendments made for reservation in the constitution where one citizen is given preferential treatment over the other and merit takes a backseat. All these amendments were good or bad? It is for all to see and judge.
Arvind has never said that there should be no elections or democracy. He is only talking of electoral reforms like the right to reject and the right to recall. What is wrong in that?
Unfortunately in the criticism of Arvind I have so far only found unfounded and unsubstantiated hype and no substance.
Arvind has never said that there should be no elections or democracy. He is only talking of electoral reforms like the right to reject and the right to recall. What is wrong in that?
Unfortunately in the criticism of Arvind I have so far only found unfounded and unsubstantiated hype and no substance.
If you seriously want to keep your eyes closed then no one can help! And its your own choice to make such decison. No one is opposing.
I am still to receive any specific, substantiated and proven allegation against him. Casting aspersions on him or calling him a dictator without any specific examples or for that matter even before his coming to power can be labelled as nothing but a 'propaganda campaign' against him.
Post after post, I have raised my questions[Have substance in them]. I am not here for any "propaganda campaing". As I said, its worth to look into what he is proposing. I called him dictator because he only believe in his solution. But he does not listen to others. In a democracy, it never works. The way he is operating clearly suggest that he is on path of becoming dictator!
Is the present Congress govt. not a dictator?
It amends the constitution when it pleases, it buys MPs when it pleases in the Parliament during the vote of no-confidence against it.
Above all, it snatches the Roti from plate of the aam admi and benefits itself and people like Ambanis and DLF, it hikes gas and petrol prices at its sweet will, it increases electricity rates by its own sweet will, it forcefully acquires agricultural land at its own sweet will.
And Arvind whom you call a dictator even before his coming to power, is a dictator (if at all he can be called one) for the cause of the people - REMOVING CORRUPTION.
You say his Janlokpal is wrong. Is the Congress Lokpal okay where the whistlblower will be jailed if his complaint is found to be unsubstantiated? And who would judge whether the allegation is unsubstantiated or not - the same corrupt politicians and the corrupt police and CBI (Congress Bureau of Investigation).
In all the criticism to Arvind we can only see "HE WILL DO THIS WRONG, HE WILL DO THAT THING WRONG". But actually what wrong has he done so far is yet to be seen. It is therefore that I call all allegations against him baseless and farfetched.
It amends the constitution when it pleases, it buys MPs when it pleases in the Parliament during the vote of no-confidence against it.
Above all, it snatches the Roti from plate of the aam admi and benefits itself and people like Ambanis and DLF, it hikes gas and petrol prices at its sweet will, it increases electricity rates by its own sweet will, it forcefully acquires agricultural land at its own sweet will.
And Arvind whom you call a dictator even before his coming to power, is a dictator (if at all he can be called one) for the cause of the people - REMOVING CORRUPTION.
You say his Janlokpal is wrong. Is the Congress Lokpal okay where the whistlblower will be jailed if his complaint is found to be unsubstantiated? And who would judge whether the allegation is unsubstantiated or not - the same corrupt politicians and the corrupt police and CBI (Congress Bureau of Investigation).
In all the criticism to Arvind we can only see "HE WILL DO THIS WRONG, HE WILL DO THAT THING WRONG". But actually what wrong has he done so far is yet to be seen. It is therefore that I call all allegations against him baseless and farfetched.
Yes you are right in pointing out all these problems. But propose an effective solution. If Arvind propose an effective solution I will fully support it. Right now his solution has many flaws. Congress Lokpal has also problems.
But before proposing any Lokpal, isn't it good to get back to basics. Why we need a Lokpal if we have investigating agencies. If we have problems with Investigating agencies, then why don't we solve them. Why to add one more mamoth bureaucracy? Why there is so much emphasis upon catching cuprits rather than preventing the corruption. [That does not mean that we should not have any ombudsman]
For example, if you make processes transparent and less complex, would not it reduce the corruption at first place. Would not it add a value to the economy if we improve ease of doing business conditions. And that would result in creating millions of jobs. That's what people want.
Janlokpal on the other hand could put a stop on economic growth due to its draconian nature. Practically such Lokpal will not work despite so much expectations. It can present very drastic results.
Bureaucrats already struggling to make decison which lead to delay in projects and thus keeping millions of Indian away from employment. JanLokpal would add more to it. I think its better to go back to basics and think logically rather than emotionally. You cannot rule out economics out of whole issue.
But before proposing any Lokpal, isn't it good to get back to basics. Why we need a Lokpal if we have investigating agencies. If we have problems with Investigating agencies, then why don't we solve them. Why to add one more mamoth bureaucracy? Why there is so much emphasis upon catching cuprits rather than preventing the corruption. [That does not mean that we should not have any ombudsman]
For example, if you make processes transparent and less complex, would not it reduce the corruption at first place. Would not it add a value to the economy if we improve ease of doing business conditions. And that would result in creating millions of jobs. That's what people want.
Janlokpal on the other hand could put a stop on economic growth due to its draconian nature. Practically such Lokpal will not work despite so much expectations. It can present very drastic results.
Bureaucrats already struggling to make decison which lead to delay in projects and thus keeping millions of Indian away from employment. JanLokpal would add more to it. I think its better to go back to basics and think logically rather than emotionally. You cannot rule out economics out of whole issue.