He is a "B" team of congress
How, enlighten us?
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Would Kezriwal's socialist policies put a brake on Indian Economy?
- Thread starter vicky84
- Start date
How, enlighten us?
@Samar,
Arvind Kezriwal also opposed FDI in retail! He wants everthing nationalised! Perhaps roll back the liberalisation! Do we really need such party?
Atish, for me the answer is yes. A vote for AAP is the best use of a vote in current circumstances. One can lead to this conclusion in several different ways.
1. Let's say we want to vote the party that stands for reforms. What choice is there really? Forget regional parties, one can't even choose between BJP and Congress. We can't call any political party as pro-reforms. If that was the case, 20 years won't have passed without second generation reforms. The first generation reforms happened because there was no choice. All parties right now are pro-certain businessmen and business houses. Many a times, these business houses stall reforms as more competition will make their positions insecure. AAP guys are a breath of fresh air in the sense that they owe allegiance to nobody. It is too early to pass judgment on AAP on economic questions that Congress/BJP are not able to answer after several years. AAP is still a work in progress...
2. The first post article and everyone else screaming "socialists" (I still say with great misunderstanding of socialism)- okay, they have a point. But it is just one of the several points and a minor one right now. There is no current danger of AAP acquiring power and unleashing nationalisation. They will not be able to break the vote banks - not in the first shot anyways. What harm possibly can happen if they too are there as a pressure group in the legislatures.
3. I don't think their economic policies make a lot of sense right now. But as per first point, that is true for all parties. We can't ask these guys for highest standards on everything, while keep voting for those without any standards. Also, there is a lot of time for them to finetune their policies. People change, parties change. I think if they survive in politics, some bad things will happen with them - but they will also get more practical. In the world we live now, India will find it very hard to go back to old days of state ownership.
4. They themselves say that the manifesto and policies are a work in progress. I don't think we can know what they stand for when they themselves are figuring it out. Watch this interview of Kejriwal. He is talking about decentralization at a seriously big level. He is talking about giving power to people to decide on their local projects. Such a philosophy doesn't gel with a Big Brother State. They are making right noises about big business usurping all assets. They don't have right answers yet, but we can give them time.
http://www.newslaundry.com/2013/01/nl-interviews-arvind-kejriwal/
The larger point I was trying to make in my first post was that socialism per se is not an evil concept. It is the so-called socialist states like USSR that gave socialism a bad name. These countries were totalitarian and not socialist. No one can explain it better than this man:
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1986----.htm
You could have a different type of socialism that is not against free markets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism
Now, if we want reforms and free markets, socialism can live with it. But it is tougher for capitalism as by definition there is an owner, who gains with restrictions on free markets. This happens in India all the time. Businessmen get restrictions on free markets so that they can profit more with lack of competition. When a businessman in India doesn't get what he wants, there is a big hue and cry that India is not great for business. But people who figure it out everyday in the toughest way are the smallest businessmen like a road-side food stall.
This is quite a good link that explains dichotomy between capitalism and free markets
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/workers-of-the-world-unite-for-a-free-market#axzz2K42wHvHi
In general, any government intervention that makes it harder to start businesses pushes people into the labor market with less bargaining power than they would have in a free market. Less bargaining power for workers means more bargaining power for bosses. So it stands to reason that some percentage of the workforce must put up with lousy job conditions they would reject in a minute if there were a wider array of better opportunities, including self-employment. But there isn’t because the State, with the backing of established businesses, has kept those opportunities from coming into existence—sometimes by outright prohibition, sometimes by “progressive” measures to “protect” consumers and workers. Technology now makes it more feasible for people to work independently, but statutes and ordinances still stand in the way.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1986----.htm
You could have a different type of socialism that is not against free markets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism
Now, if we want reforms and free markets, socialism can live with it. But it is tougher for capitalism as by definition there is an owner, who gains with restrictions on free markets. This happens in India all the time. Businessmen get restrictions on free markets so that they can profit more with lack of competition. When a businessman in India doesn't get what he wants, there is a big hue and cry that India is not great for business. But people who figure it out everyday in the toughest way are the smallest businessmen like a road-side food stall.
This is quite a good link that explains dichotomy between capitalism and free markets
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/workers-of-the-world-unite-for-a-free-market#axzz2K42wHvHi
In general, any government intervention that makes it harder to start businesses pushes people into the labor market with less bargaining power than they would have in a free market. Less bargaining power for workers means more bargaining power for bosses. So it stands to reason that some percentage of the workforce must put up with lousy job conditions they would reject in a minute if there were a wider array of better opportunities, including self-employment. But there isn’t because the State, with the backing of established businesses, has kept those opportunities from coming into existence—sometimes by outright prohibition, sometimes by “progressive” measures to “protect” consumers and workers. Technology now makes it more feasible for people to work independently, but statutes and ordinances still stand in the way.
rekhasmriti
New member
Hmmmm in a way agree with points mentioned.
Still choosing AAP would be the worst of all . Till now apart from doing anshans , ralleys , too much loudness n indeed failure kiya kya hai unhone , unse better toh Aruna n all the RTI toh le aaye .
I have said this earlier as well :
Were their so called brains dead , did not they know they can not get any bill pass by jhuloos , morchas n all bakwas without parliament majority ?
Itna toh even any school kid knows , how are bills proposed n passed . N then they expecting us to trust their policies or intelligence . Its all greed for power nothing else .
They just started , let them first prove themselves if they are capable enough to STICK by their OWN so called rules .
Before we choose them we need to keep this in mind ------its not some CR election . One bad move / policy can cost a lot as its a 1000 crore people nation.
Still choosing AAP would be the worst of all . Till now apart from doing anshans , ralleys , too much loudness n indeed failure kiya kya hai unhone , unse better toh Aruna n all the RTI toh le aaye .
I have said this earlier as well :
Were their so called brains dead , did not they know they can not get any bill pass by jhuloos , morchas n all bakwas without parliament majority ?
Itna toh even any school kid knows , how are bills proposed n passed . N then they expecting us to trust their policies or intelligence . Its all greed for power nothing else .
They just started , let them first prove themselves if they are capable enough to STICK by their OWN so called rules .
Before we choose them we need to keep this in mind ------its not some CR election . One bad move / policy can cost a lot as its a 1000 crore people nation.
virendersihag
Member
After reading all your comments so, frist you all need assurance from AAP they will establish RAM Rajya in India, corruption free india ??? So much inverstigation ?? Had you all done this for other parties ? Dont you all expecting so much from this Man, isn't it too much without giving anything to him ? too much friends... sometime you have to move with your hearts. My hearts says YES at least give him somehting to start with.
Atish, for me the answer is yes. A vote for AAP is the best use of a vote in current circumstances. One can lead to this conclusion in several different ways.
First of all thanks for putting good points! It always makes discussion interesting and useful.
I agree with you points that we do not have choice at this stage. Congress had enough time in past while BJP also had some time, but they did not show much of initiative.BJP in the states did not show any good initiative. I also agree with your points that different parties are associated with different houses. For instance, Reliance industries managed to force Union Cabinet to make policies according to their business requirement (Book, The Polyster Prince: The Rise of Dhirubhai Ambani has a lot about Reliance on that note). I do not disagree with the fact that India is sufferring from crony capitalism. As far as AAP is concerned, I made several points based upon my observation on the Party's stand on some key issues.1. Let's say we want to vote the party that stands for reforms. What choice is there really? Forget regional parties, one can't even choose between BJP and Congress. We can't call any political party as pro-reforms. If that was the case, 20 years won't have passed without second generation reforms. The first generation reforms happened because there was no choice. All parties right now are pro-certain businessmen and business houses. Many a times, these business houses stall reforms as more competition will make their positions insecure. AAP guys are a breath of fresh air in the sense that they owe allegiance to nobody. It is too early to pass judgment on AAP on economic questions that Congress/BJP are not able to answer after several years. AAP is still a work in progress...
There is no harm if they too are there as a pressure group in the legislatures as long as they Opposing wrong policies and Supporting right policies. I am more concerned about what if we add another Left Front in the country who is there to stall key economic decisons. Left front does all the time. Left Front opposed key decisons in the country. E.g: US-India civil nuclear agreement, FDI in retail, Liberalisation in India. Left parties ruled West Bengal for about 34 years and see the situation West Bengal. Kezriwal and his aide Prashant Bhusan, have been blaming Liberalisation for corruption and crony capitalism! Do you agree with that point? Seriously?2. The first post article and everyone else screaming "socialists" (I still say with great misunderstanding of socialism)- okay, they have a point. But it is just one of the several points and a minor one right now. There is no current danger of AAP acquiring power and unleashing nationalisation. They will not be able to break the vote banks - not in the first shot anyways. What harm possibly can happen if they too are there as a pressure group in the legislatures.
So far what they have proposed is more problematic than the problem itself. For instance JanLokpal Bill. Do you think such solution will ever work? What if they ask people for their suggestions and listen to them rather than pushing their own agenda? I have serious doubts on their intentions on JanLokpal bill. I feel either they have no idea about how to run system(Which I think not true at all) or they have their own agenda behind it.
Opposing FDI is another thing here. There is a lot of evidence to prove that AAP is hard core socialist party! If you browse their website and read about their agenda, you will see what they have proposed so far. For example Rising Prices(http://aamaadmiparty.org/RisingPrices.aspx) Read this page and their arguments behind Rising Prices. I could not understand their logice behind rising prices. For example:
"In Delhi and other parts of India, current governments are planning the privatization of water supply. This will result in making even water supply very expensive. Water supply rates have to be reduced drastically in such areas."
His another aide, Yogendra Yadav is pretty vocal about socialism. If they are founding fathers of AAP and their ideologies are pro socialist, than definitely its a foundation of hard core socialism. For example Left Front.
3. I don't think their economic policies make a lot of sense right now. But as per first point, that is true for all parties. We can't ask these guys for highest standards on everything, while keep voting for those without any standards. Also, there is a lot of time for them to finetune their policies. People change, parties change. I think if they survive in politics, some bad things will happen with them - but they will also get more practical. In the world we live now, India will find it very hard to go back to old days of state ownership.
4. They themselves say that the manifesto and policies are a work in progress. I don't think we can know what they stand for when they themselves are figuring it out. Watch this interview of Kejriwal. He is talking about decentralization at a seriously big level. He is talking about giving power to people to decide on their local projects. Such a philosophy doesn't gel with a Big Brother State. They are making right noises about big business usurping all assets. They don't have right answers yet, but we can give them time.
I agree with your point that no one is perfect. How can we expect so much from AAP when we have no other choice. But there is nothing wrong in analysing their agenda.
samarkadian
Active member
Atish, you are seeing the forest for a tree. Your analysis primarily is based on your sentimental understanding that socialism is an evil.Socialism tried in India was not the socialism of Russia. It was different and might be at that time capitalism was in its infancy.You ve to take in to consideration that death of socialism was more of captialism's overly ambitious nature and efforts rather than its own fallacy. You 've yourself 'believed' that AAP is a socialist party and you are rationalising it with each example.
Another point you are missing is that country at the same time needs a thinking opposition unlike just opposition BJP has been over a decade. BJP used to be much much vocal about Ram Mandir but what happened when they came in to the power.Rising prices and corruption effects every section of the society unlike Ram Mandir or Masjid things. You can't allow certain big houses to divide country's resources and rule the country in their own way.
Anil Ambani has sent defamation notice to all news channels about their live coverage of kejriwal exposing Reliance gas things. As a result of which spineless media gagged itself on AAP. I guess desijat has put that open letter of Kejriwal on the forum. Had it been false charges why Ambani didn't send a defamation notice to AAP directly.
AAP path seem troublesome and full of hurdles as of now because they are running faster when they have to stand on ground. Basically lack a organisational structure to fight elections at the present moment. Lets assume for a moment that AAP comes in power in Delhi, do you think Congress or BJP would let it make it easy for him to implement to whatever you are saying socialist policies.
Another point you are missing is that country at the same time needs a thinking opposition unlike just opposition BJP has been over a decade. BJP used to be much much vocal about Ram Mandir but what happened when they came in to the power.Rising prices and corruption effects every section of the society unlike Ram Mandir or Masjid things. You can't allow certain big houses to divide country's resources and rule the country in their own way.
Anil Ambani has sent defamation notice to all news channels about their live coverage of kejriwal exposing Reliance gas things. As a result of which spineless media gagged itself on AAP. I guess desijat has put that open letter of Kejriwal on the forum. Had it been false charges why Ambani didn't send a defamation notice to AAP directly.
AAP path seem troublesome and full of hurdles as of now because they are running faster when they have to stand on ground. Basically lack a organisational structure to fight elections at the present moment. Lets assume for a moment that AAP comes in power in Delhi, do you think Congress or BJP would let it make it easy for him to implement to whatever you are saying socialist policies.
There are lot of political ideologies which are wrapped under heading of socialism. Socialism of Russia was based on ideas of Marx and Engels, who vouched for out-throw of bourgeois state and establishment of rule of proletarian. Although it claimed to be a govt. of proletarian, basically it was rule of bureaucrats and communist party. It was an authoritarian state, where capitalist of US were replaced by bureaucrats and communist party leaders. Masses were more or less in similar conditions. Although Russia achieved lot of success like sending first man in space and became a super-power under communism/socialism but it failed to fulfill aspirations of people.We have seen how socialism collapsed in USSR. On contrary we have countries like Sweden, Norway and Denmark where socialism worked.
But will socialism work for India?
We had democratic socialism in India but did it work? It did not work and waned slowly after liberalisation in 1990's. But Arvind Kezriwal argument is that liberalisation is responsible for crony capitalism? Do you agree with that argument?
Socialism of Scandinavian countries is different, it believes in democracy. It doesn't ban private sector in countries, however it supports role of state for uplifting poor strata and providing basic amenities to them. It is similar to state-positive-liberalism, which is largely followed by govt. of Barak Obama in United States.
Socialism proves to be a different creed in hand of it's exponent, in short, is like a hat that lost it's shape because everybody wears it.
rekhasmriti
New member
This is not fair.
He expects support from 1000 crore people and we are expecting too much . It was his decision to join politics -so he better fulfil every single indian expectation
Why would we give him something-----humse poochkar politics join kiya tha .
Jo aaaj AAP ke so called karyakarta hai----unse pooch lo kitno ko pata tha ki he is forming a political party . He is playing with emotions of the countrymen .
Country emotions par nahi chalti .
My heart says----kiya kya hai usne , anshan n all bas . Pooch lo aaj tak kissi ek insan ki help ki hai usne .
Nyways , we all have our own views . I m done with this AAP thing .
He expects support from 1000 crore people and we are expecting too much . It was his decision to join politics -so he better fulfil every single indian expectation
Why would we give him something-----humse poochkar politics join kiya tha .
Jo aaaj AAP ke so called karyakarta hai----unse pooch lo kitno ko pata tha ki he is forming a political party . He is playing with emotions of the countrymen .
Country emotions par nahi chalti .
My heart says----kiya kya hai usne , anshan n all bas . Pooch lo aaj tak kissi ek insan ki help ki hai usne .
Nyways , we all have our own views . I m done with this AAP thing .
After reading all your comments so, frist you all need assurance from AAP they will establish RAM Rajya in India, corruption free india ??? So much inverstigation ?? Had you all done this for other parties ? Dont you all expecting so much from this Man, isn't it too much without giving anything to him ? too much friends... sometime you have to move with your hearts. My hearts says YES at least give him somehting to start with.
T He is playing with emotions of the countrymen .
Bas kar, rulayegi kya? :sorrow:
Exposing corruption is not bad but the way he does it is wrong. Allow me to compare him with Subramaniyam Swamy, I do not agree with Swamy's intentions and one sided expose' but I surely appreciate the way he handles his crusade against corruption 'only' by Congress. His drags his side of debate in the court of law and mostly uses media to only speak on court's proceedings. At times his claims stand tall(2G), at times they fall flat(Involvement of PC) but he does it the right way.
Where-as Kejriwal believes in the policy of hit and run, for him the only trial worth exploring is media trial where in anyone he accuses of corruption should be ruled guilty immediately in the court of media by the emotional democracy. Another issue, like you mentioned is his alternative to solutions. He has never run a govt before but surely is educated enough to understand what goes behind running a country and this surprises me even more. He acts like a literate illiterate on policies and mostly speaks of impractical solutions.
Policy matters are decided by the government and politicians in the parliament, court has little to do with it.
Also, everyone can not be Adv Subramaniyam Swamy. For a normal person (aam adami) a case as simple as a check-bounce may take 10-15 years. And even after waiting that much, he would not even get an inflammation adjusted interest.
Policy matters are decided by the government and politicians in the parliament, court has little to do with it.
I was referring more towards corruption allegations which has been center of Arvind's agenda.
Also, everyone can not be Adv Subramaniyam Swamy. For a normal person (aam adami) a case as simple as a check-bounce may take 10-15 years. And even after waiting that much, he would not even get an inflammation adjusted interest.
Not sure if you know but Prashant Bhushan is also known as PIL king of India
Large scale corruption has changed forms, it's executed now through misuse of government's policies and procedures.I was referring more towards corruption allegations which has been center of Arvind's agenda.
...
For example, take a look at the real estate in Haryana.
1. Govt issues notification of it's intention to acquire some X land for public use.
2. Real estate sharks approach farmers to purchase land at a price higher than the government one.
3. Some farmers sell their land (Y) to these sharks, others (Z=X-Y) don't.
4. Government issues fresh notification leaving out sharks land (Y) and acquires Z land.
How can this be challenged in court. Court will say, there was no violation of procedures.
samarkadian
Active member
This is not fair.
He expects support from 1000 crore people and we are expecting too much . It was his decision to join politics -so he better fulfil every single indian expectation
Why would we give him something-----humse poochkar politics join kiya tha .
Jo aaaj AAP ke so called karyakarta hai----unse pooch lo kitno ko pata tha ki he is forming a political party . He is playing with emotions of the countrymen .
Country emotions par nahi chalti .
My heart says----kiya kya hai usne , anshan n all bas . Pooch lo aaj tak kissi ek insan ki help ki hai usne .
Nyways , we all have our own views . I m done with this AAP thing .
Wow! Phenomenal !
When you last time checked your Voter card's location? errrr... Your Honour, When you voted first and last AND on what merits ( and demerits) ?
How can this be challenged in court. Court will say, there was no violation of procedures.
2G case is a fine example of a policy lead projected scam and court has taken action.
If it can not be proven, it is not a scam but politics.
2G case is a fine example of a policy lead projected scam and court has taken action.
If it can not be proven, it is not a scam but politics.
So have we got justice in 2G case? What happened to all that kickback money? Until the corrupt money is taken back with credit card's rate of interest, and the corrupt are financially fined, I wont' call it a justice.
Are we discussing about justice or Kejriwal's style of hit and run policy? Dont get confused between 2.
If Kejriwal believes he has all the proofs he should go to court in stead of gaining media attention-that is the point.
If Kejriwal believes he has all the proofs he should go to court in stead of gaining media attention-that is the point.
So have we got justice in 2G case? What happened to all that kickback money? Until the corrupt money is taken back with credit card's rate of interest, and the corrupt are financially fined, I wont' call it a justice.
Atish, you are seeing the forest for a tree. Your analysis primarily is based on your sentimental understanding that socialism is an evil.Socialism tried in India was not the socialism of Russia. It was different and might be at that time capitalism was in its infancy.You ve to take in to consideration that death of socialism was more of captialism's overly ambitious nature and efforts rather than its own fallacy. You 've yourself 'believed' that AAP is a socialist party and you are rationalising it with each example.
Samar,
I understand the difference between Socialism tried in Russia and India. I am not saying that socialism does not work. In my previous post I did mention about why socialism worked in Sweden. Socialism can be of many types and as Kapil said, it may not be against free markets.
All I am saying is whatever Kezriwal has proposed so far is not what country require. His party ideology seems to be influenced by socialism. Again Socialism as per se may not be bad when its well thought out. But Kezriwal rational behind corruption and the proposed solutions looks absurd! I am just counting what he has proposed so far.