Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[romar]

The historical evidences enshrined in the verses of the Rigveda have been gleaned by so many scholars over the years to test their hypotheses that it is not possible for any one of us to post all of them here.

Moreover, the testimony of the Vedic literature has been compared with other historical data and then the workable results of historical events and happenings of the yore in the locale inhabited by the Aryans--both Indo-Aryans and Indo-Iranians-- have been compared and correlated.

The upshot of this type of studies shows, says Dr. Budh Prakash that "the Aryans of Iran call their homeland Eranvej or Airanam Vejo Vahhiviya Dathyaya. Vahvi is the same as Vai or Valhi and denotes the river Oxus. In ancient times the Oxus discharged into the Caspian Sea. It filled the depression of Sarykamysh, flowed through the bed of the Uzboi, south-east of the gap in the Balkhan hills, over 100 miles south-east of Kransnovodsk, and fell into the Caspian opposite the group of islands called Aghyrcha." Dr. Budh Prakash goes on to explain further that "the expression Vejo Vahviya Dathyaya signifies the lower course of the Oxus, marked by the bed of the river Uzboi, for here the river torrentially sallies forth and over-flows its bounds." [pp. 137-138]

He concludes that "it is clear that the region up to the shore of the old sea, encompassing the Caspian and the Aral, formed part of the Aryan homeland''.{p. 138}

Phir wohi baat. Falane ne yeh kaha aur dikhade ne woh kaha. Jab Rigved ke shloka ke baare me jaankari puchi jaaye to milta hai ki falane ki kitab padho. Ab tak kain tathya sidhe rigved se prastut kiye ja chuke hain aur aap unko maan na nahin chahate hain kyonki aapne man bana liya hai ki Bharatiya arya Central Asia se aaye thhe.

Aap ke liye yeh ati avashyak hai ki aap Rigved ke shlok ka hawal de kar vad viavaad karein na ki buddha prakash ne kya kaha ya Roy no kya kaha.

Anyatha yeh samay vyarth karne ki baat hai.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Through the posts 528 and 540 based on the historical sources gleaned by several authors like K M Munshi, A C Das, Gangadhar Jha, D.R. Bhandarkar, E. Herzfeld, Paul Pelliot, W. Dogen, Buddha Prakash etc., the locale of the Aryan home has been identified. In nutshell one can say that ''the region from the Saraswati up to sea, encompassing the Caspian and the Aral, was the cradlelandof the Indo-Iranian peoples. It was inhabited by a large number of tribes and clans of these peoples speaking a variety of dialects of the Aryan speech and exhibiting different shades of a basic culture-complex.Their relations consisted of frequently changing associations and alliances often characterised by conflicts and bickerings. There were also displacements and movements among them from one region to another, presenting a spectacle of invasions and incursions."[pp.139-140]

These bickering and invasions are vividly described as discernible readers of the Rigvedic verses finds a lot of material praising or denouncing the contestant groups and the leaders of either party. Later Indian literature further testifies to the happening of Devasur battles about some of them we have already elucidated to through our posts.

It is for the readers now to either accept this conclusive proof of the locale of the Aryans of the yore or to come forward with more proofs supported, of course by sources, to refute it

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Phir wohi baat. Falane ne yeh kaha aur dikhade ne woh kaha. Jab Rigved ke shloka ke baare me jaankari puchi jaaye to milta hai ki falane ki kitab padho. Ab tak kain tathya sidhe rigved se prastut kiye ja chuke hain aur aap unko maan na nahin chahate hain kyonki aapne man bana liya hai ki Bharatiya arya Central Asia se aaye thhe.

Aap ke liye yeh ati avashyak hai ki aap Rigved ke shlok ka hawal de kar vad viavaad karein na ki buddha prakash ne kya kaha ya Roy no kya kaha.

Anyatha yeh samay vyarth karne ki baat hai.

Please note, I am not referring to 'falana aur dikhada' but reputed scholars who devoted best of the years of their lives to research on various aspects of pre-history and proto-history of various parts of the world.

They might have erred in arriving at their conclusion and every succeeding generation of scholars, has right to improve upon their findings in the light of collecting newer sources of information and by applying latest technics of research methodology. But to cast aspersion on them, without any rhyme or reason, does not come under the purview of scholarly discussion.

If someone has something new to add to the discussion, he/she is free to do so. But kindly come out with solid argument containing some iota of newer evidence from any of the sources consulted/quoted by the scholar to contradict/refute the aforesaid conclusion.

Thanks

P S:
Shri Ranbir Tomar Sahib, do you accept the fact or not that the Rigvedic verses present irrefutable data on the conflict among various groups of the Aryans in various regions encomapssing the locale spreading from Saraswati to Caspian or not ? If not, share the reasons thereof, please.

 

[romar]

Shri Ranbir Tomar Sahib, do you accept the fact or not that the Rigvedic verses present irrefutable data on the conflict among various groups of the Aryans in various regions encomapssing the locale spreading from Saraswati to Caspian or not ? If not, share the reasons thereof, please.

Rigved me ladai se talluk rakhne waale shloka prastut kiye ja chuke hain. Kya unme aapko kahin par Saraswati se Caspian tak ladai najar aayi? Mujha to aayi nahin.

Chunki aapne bhaut bade bade vidvanon ki kitabein padhi hain aur aap unka samarthan karte to hum sab anaari logon ki jaankari ke liye aap inki kitabon se yeh bataiye ki kis Rigved ke shloka ka hawala dekar yeh buddhiman log ladai Saraswati se Caspian tak bata rahein hain? Sirf yeh kaha dena ki inki kitab padho kaafi nahin.

Aapne kuch din pehle Shri Roy ka hawala diya ki unhone Divodas ka janam Iran mein bataya. Maine Rigved se shlok prastut kiya jo Roy ki baat ko galat sabit karta hai. Us pur bhi aapki koi tippani nahi aayi.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

There are, at least, five different approaches or methods to study the problem of chronology.

1. Literary method :Literary style method favoured by the philologists,; Analysis of proper names; and, dynastic method.

2. Archaeological method.

3. Radio-carbon Technique.

4. Astronomical Method; and

5. Cross contacts method.

Each of these methods have their merits and demerits, and, individual relative strengths and weaknesses; therefore, it is hazardous to put sole reliance on any one of these methods.

In other words, before arriving at a finally judgement, instead of giving exclusive reliance to any of them, all the methods must be given due weight.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rigved me ladai se talluk rakhne waale shloka prastut kiye ja chuke hain. Kya unme aapko kahin par Saraswati se Caspian tak ladai najar aayi? Mujha to aayi nahin.

Chunki aapne bhaut bade bade vidvanon ki kitabein padhi hain aur aap unka samarthan karte to hum sab anaari logon ki jaankari ke liye aap inki kitabon se yeh bataiye ki kis Rigved ke shloka ka hawala dekar yeh buddhiman log ladai Saraswati se Caspian tak bata rahein hain? Sirf yeh kaha dena ki inki kitab padho kaafi nahin.

Aapne kuch din pehle Shri Roy ka hawala diya ki unhone Divodas ka janam Iran mein bataya. Maine Rigved se shlok prastut kiya jo Roy ki baat ko galat sabit karta hai. Us pur bhi aapki koi tippani nahi aayi.

Friend,

To satisfy your quest for true nature of the battles between various groups mentioned in the Rig Veda, I would like to attract your kind attention to a few verses of Rig Veda. Please go through them objectively to delineate information about various tribes and groups and their locale. This would immensely benefit us to move forward in the direction of finding a workable chronological order of Proto historic period.

The epic battle between the supporters of Divodasa on the one hand and on the other hand, their antagonists-the supporters of Shambara, is mentioned among so many hymns of Rigaveda, to quote a few out of them:

RV. 1.51.6;53.10;54.4. 1.59.6; 1.101.2; 103;112 (113-114); 1.116-18; 119.4; 1.130. (7-10).

Kindly go through them and prepare a list of the participants on both sides and try to find their locale in Aryan homeland of those days. After tabulating full data from the verses collected in this way, we shall start full discussion.

In the meantime I shall return to you with further information as I am collecting other references in the verses of Rig Veda regarding the event under reference.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friend,

To satisfy your quest for true nature of the battles between various groups mentioned in the Rig Veda, I would like to attract your kind attention to a few verses of Rig Veda. Please go through them objectively to delineate information about various tribes and groups and their locale. This would immensely benefit us to move forward in the direction of finding a workable chronological order of Proto historic period.

The epic battle between the supporters of Divodasa on the one hand and on the other hand, their antagonists-the supporters of Shambara, is mentioned among so many hymns of Rigaveda, to quote a few out of them:

RV. 1.51.6;53.10;54.4. 1.59.6; 1.101.2; 103;112 (113-114); 1.116-18; 119.4; 1.130. (7-10).

Kindly go through them and prepare a list of the participants on both sides and try to find their locale in Aryan homeland of those days. After tabulating full data from the verses collected in this way, we shall start full discussion.

In the meantime I shall return to you with further information as I am collecting other references in the verses of Rig Veda regarding the event under reference.

In continuation to the above kindly see the following references in the Rig Veda :

2.12.11; 146.7; 19.6; 24.2.

4.26.(3-5); 4.30 (14,15,20,21).

6,16.(4-5-9); 18.13; 26(35);43.1; 61.1;
6.31.(1-4); 6.47.(21-22).

7.18.2; 19.8; 99.5.

8.77; 8.78; 8.103.2.

9.61.2.

A careful study of the above quoted hymns would show that next to the Indra-Vrita fights, the battles between Divodasa and Sambhara occupy the largest portion of the Rig Veda. Some of the verses pointedly tell more than the eye could see and some of them allude to the incidents.

This evidence from Rig Veda may be analysed critically to find out if there exist some cross contacts among the events/ persons involved or not.

What caused large scale destruction of hundreds of fortified towns and other related loss of life and property in the area during all these years.

Who were the kings and the groups of the people involved in these activities of historic importance. what was the impact of these happenings emerge the important issues which need to be sorted out.

The third major issue is when did this hundred year fight happen i.e. the chronology of this struggle. If we take all these issues separately, and then establish their combined identification and mutual relation, perhaps, the problem could be sorted out.

Waiting for scholarly comments, now !

Thanks,

 

[romar]

In continuation to the above kindly see the following references in the Rig Veda :

2.12.11; 146.7; 19.6; 24.2.

4.26.(3-5); 4.30 (14,15,20,21).

6,16.(4-5-9); 18.13; 26(35);43.1; 61.1;
6.31.(1-4); 6.47.(21-22).

7.18.2; 19.8; 99.5.

8.77; 8.78; 8.103.2.

9.61.2.

A careful study of the above quoted hymns would show that next to the Indra-Vrita fights, the battles between Divodasa and Sambhara occupy the largest portion of the Rig Veda. Some of the verses pointedly tell more than the eye could see and some of them allude to the incidents.

This evidence from Rig Veda may be analysed critically to find out if there exist some cross contacts among the events/ persons involved or not.

What caused large scale destruction of hundreds of fortified towns and other related loss of life and property in the area during all these years.

Who were the kings and the groups of the people involved in these activities of historic importance. what was the impact of these happenings emerge the important issues which need to be sorted out.

The third major issue is when did this hundred year fight happen i.e. the chronology of this struggle. If we take all these issues separately, and then establish their combined identification and mutual relation, perhaps, the problem could be sorted out.

Waiting for scholarly comments, now !

Thanks,

Aapka bahut dhanyavad. Aap ne jo yeh shlok dundhe hain kya unka anuvad bhi diya gaya hai?

Aapka in shloko se kya nishkarsh hai?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friend,

These verses clearly show that group of people known as Aryans [ and several other tribes too] residing in the vast stretch of Saraswati-Caspian region, joined this last and long drawn 'Devasura Yudha'/ battle and in it, ultimately, Divadasa [dynasty] emerged victorious.

Rig Veda original text Mandala, Sukata and verses numbers have been quoted above. You can check out from any of the standard Rig Veda copy. Translations are available in abundance in many languages and may vary, so chose according to your own taste, please.

Thanks

 

[romar]

Friend,

These verses clearly show that group of people known as Aryans [ and several other tribes too] residing in the vast stretch of Saraswati-Caspian region, joined this last and long drawn 'Devasura Yudha'/ battle and in it, ultimately, Divadasa emerged victorious.

Rig Veda original text Mandala, Sukata and verses numbers have been quoted above. You can check out from any of the standard Rig Veda copy. Translations are available in abundance in many languages and may vary, so chose according to your own taste, please.

Thanks

Kaunse shloka mein kaha gaya hai ki ladai caspian sea ke pass hui?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friend,

These verses clearly show that group of people known as Aryans [ and several other tribes too] residing in the vast stretch of Saraswati-Caspian region, joined this last and long drawn 'Devasura Yudha'/ battle and in it, ultimately, Divadasa emerged victorious.

Rig Veda original text Mandala, Sukata and verses numbers have been quoted above. You can check out from any of the standard Rig Veda copy. Translations are available in abundance in many languages and may vary, so chose according to your own taste, please.

Thanks

Reflect please; if the above quote gives rise to such unwarranted question ?

Kaunse shloka mein kaha gaya hai ki ladai caspian sea ke pass hui?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friend,

These verses clearly show that group of people known as Aryans [ and several other tribes too] residing in the vast stretch of Saraswati-Caspian region, joined this last and long drawn 'Devasura Yudha'/ battle and in it, ultimately, Divadasa [dynasty] emerged victorious.

................................................

Thanks

One of the battles described in the Rig Veda 7.18, 33 and 83 amply shows that numerous tribes and mercenaries like Pakhtas, Bhalanas, Shigrus, Alinas and Yakshus participated in it. It is for scholars to identify as to where from did they came to take part in this battle of ten kings fought on the banks of Ravi.

Were all of them inhabitants of India proper or belonged to other parts of the world than India at that point of time?

Why and on whose side they fought ?

So, the moot point is to identify their homelands to understand their relationship with one another and to find out cross contacts, if any, to know the chronology of the event.

Kindly contribute to solve this puzzle of proto historical times history of India.

Thanks

 

[romar]

Apne kaha: "These verses clearly show that group of people known as Aryans [ and several other tribes too] residing in the vast stretch of Saraswati-Caspian region"

Main kaha:"Kaunse shloka mein kaha gaya hai ki ladai caspian sea ke pass hui?"

Aap kaha rahe hain:

Reflect please; if the above quote gives rise to such unwarranted question ?

Main phir pooch raha hoon ki jab Rigved mein is ladai ke vishay mein Caspian Sea ka koi jikar nahi hai to hum Caspian ko kahan se laa rahe hain? Kya hum aisi baat la sakte hain jo Rigved mein nahi di hai aur kah de ki yeh Rigved main likha hai? Ise kaun manega?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Apne kaha: "These verses clearly show that group of people known as Aryans [ and several other tribes too] residing in the vast stretch of Saraswati-Caspian region"

Main kaha:"Kaunse shloka mein kaha gaya hai ki ladai caspian sea ke pass hui?"

Aap kaha rahe hain:


Main phir pooch raha hoon ki jab Rigved mein is ladai ke vishay mein Caspian Sea ka koi jikar nahi hai to hum Caspian ko kahan se laa rahe hain? Kya hum aisi baat la sakte hain jo Rigved mein nahi di hai aur kah de ki yeh Rigved main likha hai? Ise kaun manega?

I have never said that the battle was fought near the Caspian region.

I have said that the people living between Saraswati and Caspian sea region participated in the battle. What is wrong in it ?

This does not mean that the battle was fought near Caspian sea.

Therefore, there is no question of approval or disapproval of anybody.

Please read Post no. 552 given above and you would understand what I have said and on what basis and why ?

If you have something to share on the above mentioned points then come up with your comments supported by evidence, please.

Thanks.

 

[romar]

I have never said that the battle was fought near the Caspian region.

I have said that the people living between Saraswati and Caspian sea region participated in the battle. What is wrong in it ?

Theek hai. Mere hi padhne mein galti rahi hogi. To ab aap yeh bataiye ki kaunsa Rigved ka shlok aapke is kathan ka samarthan karta hai ki Caspian region tak ke log is ladai me lade:

"people living between ...... and Caspian sea region participated in the battle ".

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Theek hai. Mere hi padhne mein galti rahi hogi. To ab aap yeh bataiye ki kaunsa Rigved ka shlok aapke is kathan ka samarthan karta hai ki Caspian region tak ke log is ladai me lade:

"people living between ...... and Caspian sea region participated in the battle ".

Tell frankly friend, have you read post 552 or are you in a hurry to put one question after another without paying due attention to what is being posted on the issue regularly.

Now come out to either accept what has been written above or post your evidence based post to refute it, simple request to you.

Thanks.

 

[romar]

Tell frankly friend, have you read post 552 or are you in a hurry to put one question after another without paying due attention to what is being posted on the issue regularly.

Now come out to either accept what has been written above or post your evidence based post to refute it, simple request to you.

Thanks.

Jitni akal hai uske anusaar to 552 padh li hai. Magar sanshay yeh hai ki kya ham Rigved ke rachnakaron ke muh meh shabd dal sakte hain? Agar unhone Caspian sea ka jikar nahi kiya to aap aur main kaise kar sakte hain?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Jitni akal hai uske anusaar to 552 padh li hai. Magar sanshay yeh hai ki kya ham Rigved ke rachnakaron ke muh meh shabd dal sakte hain? Agar unhone Caspian sea ka jikar nahi kiya to aap aur main kaise kar sakte hain?

Salute to you for your valuable contribution to discussion !

 

[nrao]

So far the discussion has moved back from later sources to actual Rig Ved. Lot of material has been presented. First set was a group of secondary evidence, as seen in #542:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=334157&viewfull=1#post334157

Luckily, I was able to find the small book by Dr Budh Prakash and will deal with it in the next few days/weeks to see if he really has anything new to present or if he is repeating the popular theory during his time. The specific edition of his book that I have is 1976, and is published from Lahore. It is clear from his book that he is a big supporter of external invasion theory unlike Bhargava who is an internal invasionist.

Then we will come to specific shlok from Rig Ved, which are presented as dev-asur dwand and not movement of people from alleged homeland of central asia.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

While discussing the issue of chronology, S B Roy has undertaken an indepth study of sources of historical research and basing his findings on the main pillars of his chronology, he has averred that the entire Veda could be conveniently divided into three broad chronological divisions as follows:

Early Vedic Age : Dynasty Number= D.N. 1 to D.N. 62 i.e.the hymns (if any) composed by Rishis having these dynastic numbers will belong to the division now called Early Vedic Age.

Middle Vedic Age : D.N. 63 to D.N. 68.

Late Vedic Age : D.N. 69 to D.N. 96.

He has thoroughly examined the Middle Vedic Age to find out the locale of of the Vedic People from the hymns themselves of Rig Veda. To solve the problem he relies on the hymns of Shyavashwa Atreya who belonged to D.N. 64 because the Rishi has extensively described the rivers crossed by Atreya Storm troopers.

Shyavashwa Atrey [R.V. 5 (52,53,61] mentions several rivers. They are :

R.V. V.53.9 mentions the rivers Rasa, Anitabha, Kumbha, Kruma, Sindhu and Saryu. Rasa has been indentified a the river Jaxtartes (Syr Dariya) in Turan i.e. South Russia. Kubha [Kabul River] and Krumu [Kurram River] are western tributaries of the river Indus and situated in Modern Afghanistan i.e. the Vedic Gandhara. Sindhu is the Indian River Indus.

Saryu in the context of the present enumeration, is probably the Iranian river Horayu and the river Saryu of eastern U P.

R.V. 5.52.9 mentions Parushni, the river Ravi of the Punjab.

Gomati [RV 5.61] has been identified as the river Gomal of Baluchistan by Pargiter and Keith.

Yamuna [RV 5.52.17 ] appears to be the modern Yamuna, marking perhaps the eastern limit of Aryana.

S.B. Roy in Aryan invasion and the Rigveda: A chronological reappraisal, pp165-176 writes on the basis of the above identification of the Rivers mentioned in the Rig Veda, "The habitat of the Vedic people when Shyavashwa [D.N.64] composed the hymn was, therefore, Turan, Iranm Gandhara [Afghanistan] and the Indian region, and perhaps, India up to the river Yamuna." He goes on to add that at this point of time, "the whole of Aryana--from Zagrus Mountains in the west to Jamuna in the east, and from Turan in the north to the Arabian seas in the south was the Vedic Land. The later nadi-stuti R.V. X.75 by Sindhukshita, the sib (?) of Priyamedha, describes the rivers of Punjab and also Ganga, and therefore, it could be said that when Shyavashwa Atrey [D.N. 64] wrote, the invasion was not complete but it was in the offing: when Sindhukhsita [D.N. 68?] wrote his hymn the Aryans had reached and settled in Ganga. To be more specific, the Vedic people were still mainly on the west of Indus when D.N. 64 composed in the hymn i.e. it was the age of transition into India."

Before proceeding further, the comments of the participants supported by sources in the discussion are invited on this hypothesis of S.B. Roy. After thourough discussion when this issue is settled in the form of making a workable hypothesis then, we shall proceed to next step.


------------for the dates/chronology of the Dynasty No. 64 to 68 of the rulers and the Rishis.....please wait a while.......