Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

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drrajpalsingh

New member
On the dating of Indian history, the cut off date provided so far in Indian history books had been fixed on the basis of the Invasion of Alexander in the north west of India and subsequent establishment of Maurya Empire by Chandragupta.

However, with the advancement of information and knowledge based on newer sources, the voices of dissension on the issue have been raised from time to time as the scholars have been coming up with newer dating of Indian history. This means the Chronology of History of India needs once more scrutiny at the hands of researchers who use latest methods of research available now to them.

In view of it, the scholars are invited to share their views on the Chronology Of Indian History in particular and the Jat History in general to update the existing knowledge.
 
I have reproduced some of the log in links on the issue of the chronology of the Indian history in the above given posts; many more are available. Therefore, those who are really interested to reinterpret our past historical narration and remove the contradictions are welcome to join the discussion in right earnestness to enrich the contents of history of India in general and history of the Jats in particular.

Hoping for an early positive beginning of the discussion.
 
Chronology of Jat History, perhaps, Key lies with History of Central Asia:

Perhaps to solve the knot of discord on the issue of chronology of Indian History in general and and History of the Jats in particular, perhaps the history of Central Asia, covering the area of former Soviet Central Asia known in Russia as ''Middle Asia'', the whole of Afghanistan, the northern part of Pakistan and India, and the north-eastern part of Iran, holds the key.

Our concern is with this area where the ancient states of Bacteria, Sodiana and Khorezm grew up. It was the birthplace of a civilisation which in its long history was closely connected with interrelated Iranian and Indian civilisations, and was influenced greatly in the last centuries of B.C. by the Hellenistic culture. Here the Kushana Empire was built up and flourished throughout a period of almost five centuries.

Comments of the scholars on the archaeology, history of art of Central Asia and the development of, economic ties, literature, philosophy and ideas by migration and immigration of people during proto, pre-historic and early historical times are invited.

Thanks
 
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The region of Central Asia has witnessed the rise and spread of some of the earliest and greatest civilizations of the world. As is known well, geography is a compelling factor in history, and India is so situated as to have become inevitably the meeting point of the great movements of peoples and ideas which has taken place in Central Asia in particular and Asia in general since times immemorial. From the earliest times, that is as far back as we can go in history, the destiny of India has been closely interlinked with the development in the north and even the mighty Himalayas could not divide and isolate us from the countries beyond.

The time has come when we must think in terms of human civilisation and not merely in terms of a caste a country or region. It is necessary therefore that the much needed cooperation between countries of Central Asia which existed through the ages should be brought on the pages of history. To whichever land our ancestors may have belonged in yore and to whichever country we may belong now this must be our common mission and united effort ''to achieve goodwill between man and man, to establish a secure foundation of fellowship which will save humanity from suicidal war and the savagery of fanatical superstition we must usher in the age of reason, of cooperation, of a generous reciprocity of culture which will reveal the richness of our common humanity.''

This mission could be achieved only if we understand our common roots, the roots that lay in the central Asia of which India was also a part. So let us discover the historical process of the past ages and march forward in finding out the facts of history afresh by using the latest tools of research, the tools like archaeology, numismatics, science, genetics, anthropology and so on. The facts could be gleaned and collected only by applying multi-disciplinary approach, hence an open appeal to all the members of the Jatland forum to join hands to attain this mission.

Hoping for enlightening insights in the form of posts on the topic by the learned participants.
 
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DrRajpalSingh said:
Chronology of Jat History, perhaps, Key lies with History of Central Asia:

Perhaps to solve the knot of discord on the issue of chronology of Indian History in general and and History of the Jats in particular, perhaps the history of Central Asia, covering the area of former Soviet Central Asia known in Russia as ''Middle Asia'', the whole of Afghanistan, the northern part of Pakistan and India, and the north-eastern part of Iran, holds the key.

Our concern is with this area where the ancient states of Bacteria, Sodiana and Khorezm grew up. It was the birthplace of a civilisation which in its long history was closely connected with interrelated Iranian and Indian civilisations, and was influenced greatly in the last centuries of B.C. by the Hellenistic culture. Here the Kushana Empire was built up and flourished throughout a period of almost five centuries.

Comments of the scholars on the archaeology, history of art of Central Asia and the development of, economic ties, literature, philosophy and ideas by migration and immigration of people during proto, pre-historic and early historical times are invited.

Thanks
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Thanks Dr Rajpal ji for your honest efforts in this regard.

I am ready to share my views with an open mind.


A healthy discussion with an open mind can clear lot of confusion regarding our past.
 
Thanks Rajpalji for starting this thread. This is a welcome step.

I do think it is the right time to review Chronology of History of India and Jat history in particular to do a deep scrutiny by researchers who have used latest research techniques available to us. We have compiled a lot of content on Jatland Wiki. Now we need fine moderation by experts.
 
Shri Burdakji,


In view of the objections raised by some of friends on the Jatland Wiki posts, which apparently seem to be genuine, kindly permit me to propose discussion on the whole problem of chronology/antiquity of the Jats and their emergence on the Indian sub continent as power to reckon with afresh.

It is proposed to have an open discussion to seek the views from the cross section of the participants and settle the dust of suspicion and then update the Jatland Wiki pages on the basis of the newer findings, if any. Therefore, we can start the Exercise right earnestly to understand, some of the issues raised under the following headlines :

1. Which region was the original home of the 'Aryans' and when did they migrate from the original home first and to which area did they go from their original home?
2. Was the migration of the 'Aryans' a one time phenomena or was it repeated with immigration and migration. If yes, then when to which region or country/continent?
3. What was the relation of the Jats with the 'Aryans' ?
4. If they were one of them, then, what was their role in the 'Devasura battles?'
5. Which place is identifiable with Devaloka and where do you place Rig Vedic Tridiva or the three provinces of the 'Devaloka' ?
6. Was Rig Vedic Indra denoted god or a commander or king or title of the leaders of the Aryanas during the course of long drawn Devasura battle or not?
7. Who were the Devas and who were their enemies Asuras? What was their relation with the Jats/their clans?
8. When did the Jat identity as a community/caste/people emerge as per historical sources?
9. Were there more than one generation of Indra which is repeatedly invoked by the Rig Vedic Aryans during their long drawn battle against the Asuras?
10. Where do we locate Uttrakurus referred to in the Puranic literature and the Mahabharata?
11. Where, when and by whom among the Jats the first ruling dynasty was established ?

This is merely a glimpse of the points to be encountered when we start discussion to investigate history of the people of India from Pre-Historic to Proto-Historic and Ancient Times.

In addition to given gist, more points could be added by the participants right now or during the course of discussion.

If we first take our Rig Veda, Mahabharata, Ramayana and Puranic literature, a flood of light is available in them to guide us to re-enliven the lost chains of our pedigree and chronology of the past history. For comparison and contrast the evidences from these books, available literature from other contemporary civilisations of central Asia and other neighbouring countries may usefully be taken into consideration. Then archaeological studies and other modern sources could come handy to solve many contentious issues.

Let us hope the discussion proceeds into right direction of re-interpretation of the existing data and presentation of the newer data to supplement our present state of knowledge.

Hearty Welcome to the participants.
 
Jambu Dvipa and Meru

According to the Puranas the world consisted of seven dvipas with Jambu-dvipa as the central dvipa or continent. In the centre of the Jambu dvipa stands the golden mountain Meru [as the centre of the entire world]. From the Meru four major rivers rivers take off and flow in the four directions. The names of the rivers and directions of their flow is: Vakshu, Sita, Bhadrasoma and Alakananda flowing towards West. East,North and South respectively.

Iranians called the mountain region as the Bam-e-Duniya or the roof of the world.

In the identification of this important Asiatic geographical region and river system lies, perhaps, the key to the original abode of the 'Aryanas'.

Perhaps, the puranic location of the Devaloka may be identified with the region on and around the Mount Meru as forcefully advocated by many of the Puranas. Many of the scholars have identified the Puranic Meru with the plateau of Pamir.
 
This is a better structure, just what we would expect from a professional Academic.

So far scholars, both Colonial and Indian have been taking the Puranic data as literal or mythological and/or fantastical.

Before the discussion gets bogged down into Jats were Aryans and came from England, it may be worth while exploring the significance of the astronomy in puranic data.

The earlier historians did not know astronomy and what little they saw as references were lost in the maze of astrology, and again became not worth considering..

Over recent years, Indian researchers have been making substantial strides in the field of historical astronomy.

One such pioneer was Bal Gandhar Tilak, circa 1897, who in his book ' Orion' showed that the ancients had a deep knowledge of Astronomy an dknew the stars , constellations before 3,000 BCE.

His was pooh poohed by British historians.


More recently a veritable army of researchers is engaged in this field, and their works are being published in reputable research magazines

Two researchers Vahia from TIFR and Menon from Manipal School of Architecture, have published a paper, wherein they have reported finding an astronomical observatory in Dholavir, earlier this year- March 2012. The paper is to be published in Man and Environment.

A copy of the paper is in the link below:
http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Harappan Civilisation/Observatory at Dholavira.pdf



A possible astronomical observatory at Dholavira
M N Vahia1, 2 and Srikumar M Menon3
1 Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai
2 Manipal Advanced Research Group, Manipal University, Manipal, Karnataka
3 Manipal School of Architecture and Planning, Manipal University, Manipal, Karnataka


There are other papers too which show that the Harrapans knew about the Sapt Rishi constellation.

This in my view suggests an unbroken history and continuity of civilization in the subcontinent form ancient times.



Ravi Chaudhary
 
The puranas have to reexamined, from an astronomical lens

The purpose of Astronomy in the ancient days would have been to develop a calendar to govern day to day life including agriculture. When to expect rain, when to expect warm weather, when to sow the crops, when to travel by ship to other lands, for the right season, when the winds would be favourable etc.

The world view of the puranas with Mount Meru, and the seven worlds, the four rivers, going East, West, North, South, may just be geographical description of the world.

The four solstices, winter, to herald the start of the new year, Spring/Vernal- to herald the start of sowing season, , Summer- to mark the beginning towards Winter, and autumn, to mark the end f the harvest season, were very important.

Calendar would be lunar or solar. The lunar calendar would have to be adjusted regularly to synchronize with the solar calendar.

The puranic calendar was based around the sun travelling to the land of the Pitris from June to December, and in the land of the ‘Devas, from December to June. Calendars could also start from the vernal or autumnal equinoxes.

The other allegory in it’s the perpetual war between the Devas and the Asuras, for light against Darkness, or spring summer against autumn and winter.

India the slayer of demons, slayer of Vritta, releases the waters of heavens. This could mean also that the spring rains were released.

The yagyas or Yagnas were continuous events; designed to propigate the deified god Indra, who would upon having accepted the offerings of the yagya, would grant the Yajmans wishes.

The Nakshatras had the same use, to help develop and maintain a calendar.

In time superstition took over, and the actual meaning became clouded.

Coming back to Astronomy and its usefulness for determining the chronology.

There and many many references in the Rig Veda, the other Vedas, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, which give us useful data.

One focus should be to see if these references can help us get a better fix of chronology.

Ravi Chaudhary
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Shri Burdakji,

It is proposed to have an open discussion to seek the views from the cross section of the participants and settle the dust of suspicion and then update the Jatland Wiki pages on the basis of the newer findings, if any. Therefore, we can start the Exercise right earnestly to understand, some of the issues raised under the following headlines :

1. Which region was the original home of the 'Aryans' and when did they migrate from the original home first and to which area did they go from their original home?
2. Was the migration of the 'Aryans' a one time phenomena or was it repeated with immigration and migration. If yes, then when to which region or country/continent?
3. What was the relation of the Jats with the 'Aryans' ?
4. If they were one of them, then, what was their role in the 'Devasura battles?'
5. Which place is identifiable with Devaloka and where do you place Rig Vedic Tridiva or the three provinces of the 'Devaloka' ?
6. Was Rig Vedic Indra denoted god or a commander or king or title of the leaders of the Aryanas during the course of long drawn Devasura battle or not?
7. Who were the Devas and who were their enemies Asuras? What was their relation with the Jats/their clans?
8. When did the Jat identity as a community/caste/people emerge as per historical sources?
9. Were there more than one generation of Indra which is repeatedly invoked by the Rig Vedic Aryans during their long drawn battle against the Asuras?
10. Where do we locate Uttrakurus referred to in the Puranic literature and the Mahabharata?
11. Where, when and by whom among the Jats the first ruling dynasty was established ?

This is merely a glimpse of the points to be encountered when we start discussion to investigate history of the people of India from Pre-Historic to Proto-Historic and Ancient Times.

Hearty Welcome to the participants.
Click to expand...

Beautiful post covering almost entire spectrum of discussion .

There can be two ways of doing ..answering all questions raised numberwise and than giving supporting reasons or taking issues one by one Like Aryans immigration or emigration ,Jats Aryans or otherwise.....
 
ravichaudhary said:
The puranas have to reexamined, from an astronomical lens

The purpose of Astronomy in the ancient days would have been to develop a calendar to govern day to day life including agriculture. When to expect rain, when to expect warm weather, when to sow the crops, when to travel by ship to other lands, for the right season, when the winds would be favourable etc.

The world view of the puranas with Mount Meru, and the seven worlds, the four rivers, going East, West, North, South, may just be geographical description of the world.

The four solstices, winter, to herald the start of the new year, Spring/Vernal- to herald the start of sowing season, , Summer- to mark the beginning towards Winter, and autumn, to mark the end f the harvest season, were very important.

Calendar would be lunar or solar. The lunar calendar would have to be adjusted regularly to synchronize with the solar calendar.

The puranic calendar was based around the sun travelling to the land of the Pitris from June to December, and in the land of the ‘Devas, from December to June. Calendars could also start from the vernal or autumnal equinoxes.

The other allegory in it’s the perpetual war between the Devas and the Asuras, for light against Darkness, or spring summer against autumn and winter.

India the slayer of demons, slayer of Vritta, releases the waters of heavens. This could mean also that the spring rains were released.

The yagyas or Yagnas were continuous events; designed to propigate the deified god Indra, who would upon having accepted the offerings of the yagya, would grant the Yajmans wishes.

The Nakshatras had the same use, to help develop and maintain a calendar.

In time superstition took over, and the actual meaning became clouded.

Coming back to Astronomy and its usefulness for determining the chronology.

There and many many references in the Rig Veda, the other Vedas, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, which give us useful data.

One focus should be to see if these references can help us get a better fix of chronology.

Ravi Chaudhary
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We are ready to take Purans and astronomical data as historical proof.

Can Ravi ji suiggest us how the astonomical data present in Purana can be used as histrocical data by citing one or more example.?

This just to know the methodology and accuracy of a technique that we are going to use in historical research.
 
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There is one more angle in the study of ancient literature which is ignored is the Flora and Fauna of that period. In each we get geography of the area described. The Indian epics discuss about the flora and fauna, the geography and forestry of the region. Our rishis or the writers of epics have described the Flora and Fauna of those locations which can be of great help in tracing history and determining the time scale, as these do not record time scales of the incidences mentioned in these. I have contributed one article on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_of_the_Indian_epic_period

The plant species of Ramayana and Mahabharata have been identified in this article and locations with shloka and present distribution has been compiled. Members may take advantage of this article if interested.
 
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Friends,

Thanks for overwhelming interest shown in the present discussion.

It is requested that we must concentrate on sharing our own knowledge and also readings/studies of others on the issues raised [or new points which emerge during discussion] on related issues to let the thread progress further in the right direction.

Thanks and regards
 
narenderkharb said:
We are ready to take Purans and astronomical data as historical proof.

Can Ravi ji suiggest us how the astonomical data present in Purana can be used as histrocical data by citing one or more example.?

This just to know the methodology and accuracy of a technique that we are going to use in historical research.
Click to expand...


In Puranic chronology the current era starts with Kali 1, or 3102 BCE.

The Mahabharat war is dated kali -37 or 3139 BCE

The Yudhisthra era starts in Kali +25 or 3077 BCE, at his death . This era is also known as the Laukika era or the Sapt Rishi era, and is still used in Kashmir, and the hill areas, for religious festival dating, astrology etc etc.

There are astronomical references in the MBH, and following them can help in determining if the chronology makes sense or not.

The Vedas also contain astronomical references and can help dating the society and the information in the Vedas.


For eaxample the IVC or Sarasvati-Sindu(SS) civilization society knows altars, shaped as a falcon. The sulbassutras( a section of the vedic literrature), contains detailed mathematical methodology for the construction of such an altar.


We know the IVC or SS is dated 3,000 BCE on. The sulba sutras would then also have to dated to this period, and not to 600 BCE as Aryan invasion theory historians would like us to believe they should be dated.

The Rig veda composition would also be pushed back accordingly.

With the link between the SS civilization and the Vedas established, the cultural millieu would also stand established.


Hope this helps

Ravi Chaudhary
 
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