Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[ravichaudhary]

I have read such stuff many times point is...... Does it suggest inferences that you drew out of these articles?

We know very well that IVC was far too superior civilization so mention of a structure that well may be observatory is no way connected with our argument of borrowing knowledge from vedic civilization.

If you read critically article by Vahia and quotation by Asko Parpola in very same article suggest that knowledge of IVC may have used by later vedic civilization, this he mentions clearly ,no where he suggests that reverse is true

Parpola suggested a southern connection for IVC rather a vedic in his other articles.


Regarding Fire pits ,they are neither circular nor rectangualr in Kaibanga shape is rather oblong defying sulabsutra ,more like Chullahs/Haras of our own houces

They are lined with clay inside as our mothers used to put in our chullahs ...there are burnt clay humps and semioval terracota plates used to hold pot for heating inside these hearths
there are bones of animals and antlers beside these hearths ,fire pits that suggested their cooking of animal parts .

There is a difference in Fire altar termed Vedi in Indian language and a firepit /kund /hara chullaha
Here we donot use terracota plates to offer to God or don't roast animals in vedis that defiles that Yagna .

I may contnue but you can just google Fire altars of IVC and read lot about them.


Regarding Kak he doesn/t explain IVC fire altars ....he tells us about vedic system.


To summerise ....Advancement of IVC in astronomy is no way can be taken as proof of its vedic relationship.


Second these fire pits or hearths/kils /kunds are present in all shapes oval oblong circular in all direction doesn't follow a regular geometric pattern.in different locations,.so should not be treated as some Vedi/Altars .
They have pebbles for retaining heats ,Terracota plates for holding pots ...have burnt cakes that accumulate in hearths not in Altars /Vedis that are cleared before every Yagna .......have beside them bones and antlers so doesn't seem to be classified some vedis of Sulabhsutra....Hence suggestion for Altars should be outright negated.
Some biased writers suggested semioval tericotta plates as two possible halves of lingam but how can you put lungam in fire and then offer ghee and animals to him . We must apply our own critical review besides reading findings of authors like Kak etc..

Warm Regards

It is also a matter of attitude
The IVC seals show images, that remind one of Shiva, ( Yogic Posture) Seven Rishis( Sapt Rishi Constellation ) etc etc.
The altars are there, whether you call them fire pits or altars, they are there, and cannot be wished away.
Animal sacrifice is not new as a religious ceremony, even late and current Hindu ceremony.
The fire pits are aligned - East and West

Here is the contradiction:
Quote: “

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/harappa-mohenjodaro.html

For example, seals have been recovered with the repeated motif of a man sitting in a yogic position surrounded by animals. This is very similar to the Hindu god of Shiva, who is known to have been the friend of the animals and sat in a yogic position. These seals are known as the Shiva seals. Other images of a male god have been found, thus indicating the beginnings of Shiva worship, which continues to be practiced today in India. (10)


This is an interesting point because of the accepted notion of an Aryan invasion. If Aryan's had invaded the Indus Valley, conquered the people, and imposed their own culture and religion on them, as the theory goes, it would seem unlikely that there would a continuation of similar religious practices up to the present. There is evidence throughout Indian history to indicate that Shiva worship has continued for thousands of years without disruption. [cf. harappan cultural continuity]
The Aryan's were supposed to have destroyed many of the ancient cities right around 1500 B.C., and this would account for the decline of the Indus civilization. However the continuity of religious practices makes this unlikely, and other more probable explanations for the decline of the Harappan civilization have been proposed in recent years; such as climate shifts which caused great droughts around 2200 B.C., and forced the abandonment of the Indus cities and pushed a migration westward … { end quote}



In the extract avbove , on one hand a continuity is drawn between the IVC culture and later Hindu Religion.

In the second para, the decline is( was ascribed to the Aryans, who arrived in 1500 BCE and destroyed the civilization.

The author asks however how this could be, and finds another explanation for the decline- Climate change.

What happened to these Aryans and when did they come?


If they came in 1500 BCE, then how do you explain the Vedic deity- Shiva.?


If they came before or during the IVC, or for that matter were already there, then the chronology and the Vedic texts co relate to each other.


Which explanation is preferable, the simple one, or the complicated one?

Warm Regards

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr Singh ,

With respect to you and I have pointed this out to you before, Kindly stop drawing defining my comments as " out bursts of anger"

If you see any ' light;' welcoming or otherwise, in D P Misra's work, please draw our attention to it

Chaudhary Sahib,

We have started a discussion on very important issues in which we are expected to find many points of view and face diversion of debate from one side to other and so on. The issue being discussed in the present context deals with Dr. Misra's study of the Deva Loka as mentioned in the Puranas. He has tried to take help from the study of another geographer Dr. Ali to carry forward his identification of the rivers of the Central Asia as given in the post under reference under quote. After the quote I had invited the comments of the participants by writing----If this identification..........

Instead of giving alternate interpretation you rejected it as ''This is just plain silly.''

Then again you added that there are many ifs and buts in Misra's contention but the exact quote in the post is again put before you for re-examination:

Dr. Misra says that: "Among these rivers, Vakshu has been recognised as Oxus or Amu Darya. The Chinese call the Tarim Yarkand river as Sito and there is no dispute about its identification with the Puranic river Sita. Dr. Ali identifies Bhadrasoma with Syr Darya, the Jaxartes of the Greeks, and in view of the weighty arguments advanced by him, we may accept his identification. The fourth river Alakananda is,of course, Ganga. It is important to note that Alakananda is only one of the four Gangas. The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way and thus give all of them the common name of Ganga. Thus according to the Puranas the Oxus (Amu Darya), the Jaxartes (Syr Darya) and Tarim-Yarkand are as much a part of Aksa-Ganga as our Alakananda."

Instead of examining his supposition, we again find another post on the issue,"

"Quoting other writers, scholars is one thing, claiming they are shedding 'welcome light" in another.

If a would be scholar claims to shed 'light, they had better be prepared to defend their claim.

part of the problem, is that would be scholars, get academic posts, and the quote each other, thereby creating a picture of genuine scholarship, which is not there."

Friend, by saying that Dr. Misra has shed a welcome light on the issue under discussion should be read as stimulation for carrying the discussion further and not as final word for ending the discussion here and now. We will meet many more scholars on the way as the discussion progresses and have to bear with their findings with solid counter-arguments or supportive evidences to understand them. My point was our 'harsh' words towards scholars would lead us nowhere and so must be desisted.

I think I erred somewhere in my earlier posts on the issue to say that we are taking up one of the points of view or to say 'theories' on the original home of the 'Aryans' but, I failed to mentioned that it is neither final theory nor the only theory on the issue to solve the ancient home, chronology, migration and immigration of the 'Aryans'. This was my real idea to start the thread. So let us move forward and join hands to take the issue to logical end, if possible.

Thanks and regards

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friends,

As quoted earlier, Dr. Misra says regarding identification of 4 rivers of the proposed 'Aryan' home and concludes that:.......... ''The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way and thus give all of them the common name of Ganga. Thus according to the Puranas the Oxus (Amu Darya), the Jaxartes (Syr Darya) and Tarim-Yarkand are as much a part of Aksa-Ganga as our Alakananda."

As we all are aware, generally accepted literal meaning of Akas-Ganga is Milky way but does there exist any chance to intrepret the phrase ''Akas Ganga in any other way. Dr. M. Ali, says on the issue of another interpretation as under:

"The Ganga is a celestial river which has been very picturesquely compared in the Puranas to the Milky Way. The first part of the statement, therefore, refers to the ' starry River' in the heavens (i.e., the Milky Way) which ones sees revolving round the North pole in the Northern Hemisphere, as though it were attached to the Pole by an invisible bond. The 'adobe' of this celestial river (in the literal sense) on the earth is the extensive, snow-bound and glacier-mantled high plateau of the Pamir (the Meru) on which that river, i.e. the Ganga 'descends' from the sky, obviously in the form of snow. The Ganga thus remains suspended on this mountainous region above the snow-line or in Puranic language, rests on the head or in the tresses of gods and deities Not only does the 'heavenly river' rest on the plateau of Meru but also on the high ridges and ranges which surround and radiate from the Meru, or the Pamir region. Thus the 'river' runs several times 'round Meru', according to the Puranas before it descends further down by melting or as a glacier. It should be noted that at this stage, i.e. before melting, the Ganga rests or remains suspended on the high mountain peaks and ridges and does not flow into valleys or plains. When the glaciers melt and their waters accumulate in the lakes at the foot of the mountain and issue from there as rivers, the Ganga assumes the form of water channels i.e., rivers in the real sense. The Puranas mention four main lakes and four main rivers which originate as such and flow to the four cardinal points of Jambu-Divpa." (The Geography of the Puranas, pp 63-64)

Now, Dr. Ali's identification of the four rivers issuing from the four sides of the Meru with the four rivers flowing from the Pamirs needs further illumination by the scholars with the help of original sources.

Thanks and regards.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Dr. Singh

Thank you for the welcome light you are shedding on the topic. In fact the light is most illuminating. There is nothing more that lay persons can add .


To summarize :

Reading your posts, I am now convinced that the scholars Misra, Ali and you are more than correct.

The Akash Ganga is the Milky Way ( a Galaxy many thousands of light years away) and it flowed into Jambudwipa, and split into four rivers, going east, west, north and south.

Fortunately we also discover the river Sita, in Central Asia.


Here we now have absolute proof of the Jat origins from Jambudwipa, from the Banks of the River Sita.

We know jat clans give their names to territory, land etc.

The Jat Clan Gangas must have give their name to the Akash Ganga, and the earthly Gangas.

The Ganga jats set up empires all over. We find them as far as South India, from Andhra to the Westerrn Ghats.

As a further proof, we find the River Sita is not onlyfound in the Tarim Basin,( Central asia) but in Karnataka, ( South India) and in Romania ( Europe).


This proves that they descended to Earth from the Heavens, by the Milky Way, a far off galaxy, and spread to the four corners of the earth.

In time they named many rivers on earth after them, as is only to be expected.

Their antiquity to the the time of the Ramayan also stands proved.

Thank you very much.

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Thanks Chaudhary Sahib for your encouraging comments on the quest for finding the correlation between Puranic-Rigvedic references and geographical regions inhabited by the 'Aryans' in the remote past.

The area in all probability seems to encompass the region known as north-western Indian sub-continent [situated to the south of the Pamirs plateau] and other regions popularly known as 'Central Asia'. The exact location would emerge as the study based on archaeological finds and re-interpretation of the literary available sources progresses further.

Let us join hands to further find the sources/studies carried out on the issue of understanding the expansion and extent of the region with Meru at its centre and identification of the people who resided, migrated/immigrated from there from time to time starting from earliest times [ starting from pre-historic and proto-historic times] to the dawn of historic times so that conclusive picture comes out of the discussion.

Thanks and regards

 

[lrburdak]

Jamin Ashman ek ho gaya !

Jat ab Universal ho gaya !!

Thanks Ravi ji for your lattest post.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr. K.L. Daftari in 'The Astronomical Method And Its Application to the Chronology of Ancient India', Nagpur University, 1942; Dr. Budha Prakash ['Rgveda and the Indian Civilisation, and also in 'India and the World', 1964, VVRI, Hoshiarpur] as well as Dr. V.S. Agarwal, Markandeya Purana--Ek Sanskritic Adhyana -- have also supported the Puranic geography regarding Meru and concurred in their identification of the Meru with the Pamir as the homeland of the Devas.

The views of some other authors on the issue, who have applied Rigveda as a source of study to locate the original home of the 'Aryans' willl be dealt with in the succeeding post.

Thanks.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Jamin Ashman ek ho gaya !

Jat ab Universal ho gaya !!

Thanks Ravi ji for your latest post.

Burdakji,

You are most welcome.

You had quoted from the Deva Samhita. Could you add the Link here and material here

If I recall correctly:

You had written, something like this:

"Shivji, tells Parvati, something like this:

O Parvati,

The history of the Jats has been deliberately hidden, for were it to be told a glorious history would be revealed, and they would take their rightful pace.

Jats are Devtas"


Shivji ,is of course, Mahadev, the greatest of the Devtas.

He crosses the Universe with one step.

He is also the ancestor of the Jats, who are descended from his Jatas.

We must thank the scholars D.P. Misra et al, who have shed the brilliant light on the subject.


This also , as an important by product, settles the Scythian question once and for all, for Jambudwipa and Scythia are the same and in central Asia.


Warm regards


Ravi Chaudhary


P.S All that remains is to see which star their original homeland was on, but that should be a comparatively simpler task. We know the rastha/route they took to come here.

 

[narenderkharb]

Ravi ji

Dr Rajpal/Mishra might have erred in identifying Meru of Puranas.If you doubt that identification you must put forward reasons for doing so.Please share your ideas on meru ,Sita locations.

 

[narenderkharb]

It is also a matter of attitude
The IVC seals show images, that remind one of Shiva, ( Yogic Posture) Seven Rishis( Sapt Rishi Constellation ) etc etc.
The altars are there, whether you call them fire pits or altars, they are there, and cannot be wished away.
Animal sacrifice is not new as a religious ceremony, even late and current Hindu ceremony.
The fire pits are aligned - East and West

Here is the contradiction:
Quote: “

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/harappa-mohenjodaro.html

For example, seals have been recovered with the repeated motif of a man sitting in a yogic position surrounded by animals. This is very similar to the Hindu god of Shiva, who is known to have been the friend of the animals and sat in a yogic position. These seals are known as the Shiva seals. Other images of a male god have been found, thus indicating the beginnings of Shiva worship, which continues to be practiced today in India. (10)


This is an interesting point because of the accepted notion of an Aryan invasion. If Aryan's had invaded the Indus Valley, conquered the people, and imposed their own culture and religion on them, as the theory goes, it would seem unlikely that there would a continuation of similar religious practices up to the present. There is evidence throughout Indian history to indicate that Shiva worship has continued for thousands of years without disruption. [cf. harappan cultural continuity]
The Aryan's were supposed to have destroyed many of the ancient cities right around 1500 B.C., and this would account for the decline of the Indus civilization. However the continuity of religious practices makes this unlikely, and other more probable explanations for the decline of the Harappan civilization have been proposed in recent years; such as climate shifts which caused great droughts around 2200 B.C., and forced the abandonment of the Indus cities and pushed a migration westward … { end quote}



In the extract avbove , on one hand a continuity is drawn between the IVC culture and later Hindu Religion.

In the second para, the decline is( was ascribed to the Aryans, who arrived in 1500 BCE and destroyed the civilization.

The author asks however how this could be, and finds another explanation for the decline- Climate change.

What happened to these Aryans and when did they come?


If they came in 1500 BCE, then how do you explain the Vedic deity- Shiva.?


If they came before or during the IVC, or for that matter were already there, then the chronology and the Vedic texts co relate to each other.


Which explanation is preferable, the simple one, or the complicated one?

Warm Regards

Ravi Chaudhary

Agree with you AIT of type mentioned above is wrong.But main question is do some people who composed Vedas were original native Indians or came from northwest?

 

[narenderkharb]

Burdakji,

You are most welcome.

You had quoted from the Deva Samhita. Could you add the Link here and material here

If I recall correctly:

You had written, something like this:

"Shivji, tells Parvati, something like this:

O Parvati,

The history of the Jats has been de.............

Laxman ji clearly wrote in his earlier posts that he is simply compiling matter on Jats ...It is the duty of all of us to go for moderation and recompilation of existing matter on Jats.

 

[lrburdak]

Raviji Here is the link what you have asked for - [Wiki]Deva Samhita[/Wiki]

 

[nrao]

Agree with you AIT of type mentioned above is wrong.But main question is do some people who composed Vedas were original native Indians or came from northwest?

याने कि northwest बोले तो, किधर ?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Raviji Here is the link what you have asked for - Deva Samhita

The relevant extract from the above link is reproduced hereinunder for the benefit of critical analysis of the proceedings of the present discussion vis-a-vis the new source Deva Samhita:

Deva Samhitā (देवसंहिता) is a collection of Sanskrit hymns by Gorakh Sinha during the early medieval period. Deva Samhitā propounded the theory of Origin of Jats from Shiva's Locks. [SUP][3][/SUP] [SUP][4][/SUP] [SUP][5][/SUP] Devasamhita records an account of the Origin of the Jats in the form of discussion between Shivaand Parvati expressed in shloka (verses). Pārvatī asks Shiva, O Lord Bhutesha, knower of all religions, kindly narrate about the birth and exploits of the Jat race. Who is their father? Who is their mother? Which race are they? When were they born? Having read the mind of Parvati, Shiva said, "O mother of the world, I may tell you honestly the origin and exploits of the Jats about whom none else has so far revealed anything to you. Some relevant verses are given below.
There is mention of Jats in Deva Samhitā [SUP][6][/SUP] in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia. When Pārvatī asks Shiva about the origin of Jats, their antiquity and characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in Sanskrit shloka-15 as under:
महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāḥ
सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्*टा देवकल्*पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devakalpā dridh-vratāḥ || 15 ||
Meaning - "They are symbol of sacrifice, bravery and industry. They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyā, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth."
Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita as under:
श्रृष्टेरादौ महामाये वीर भद्रस्य शक्तित: Shrishterādau mahāmāye Virabhadrasya shaktitaḥ
कन्यानां दक्षस्य गर्भे जाता जट्टा महेश्वरी Kanyānām Dakshasya garbhe jātā jattā maheshwarī. || 16 ||
Meaning – "In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha's daughter gani's womb originated the caste of Jats."
Pārvatī asks, in the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' about the origin and exploits of the Jats, whom none else has so far revealed, Shiva tells Parvati that:
गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī
विचित्रं विस्*मयं सत्*वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam || 17 ||
Meaning - "The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals, lest it should injure and impair their false pride of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you."


Let us see to what extent this new source supports the Central Asian origin of the Jats or not !!

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

The map of Central Asia [marked red] is reproduced from the Wiki pages of the Jatland.com for use of scholars to locate the exact position of the places being discussed here.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friends,

Thanks for giving your valuable points to add to the value of the discussion. But, in the meantime, I would like to request all participants to use their discretion to jump from one point to another in a hurry or to have patience and first discuss the Pauranic and Rigvedic homes of 'Aryans' described as Deva Lok and Pitra Loka and subsequent Migration of Asuras to the valley of the Indus after the end of Devasura Wars.

Thereafter, it is found that at least three waves of the 'Aryans' descends from their original home towards south of the Pamirs during the course of almost 1500 years, the last being described to have happened as per text books in between 1500 BC to 1000 BC.

These proofs, if proved conclusively, will open new vistas in the field of history of not only the Jats but is likely to unravel the mystry of the authors of the Harrapan / Indus Valley Civilization. But let us first let the discussion progress step by step.

Whatever, research material collected by historians on the issue being discussed has come to my knowledge, if critically put to test by the present scholars, would surely clear many myths from the pages of history which we will see as the discussion progresses. Inputs are requested from the learned authors by means of posting their comments to carry forward the discussion without jumping to quick conclusions.

Rest all of us can add or deduct what I have written in this post.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

After having discussed identification of Meru as the centre of the Devaloka of the Pauranic literature, let us now try to find out Diva or Devaloka, the abode of the gods which it appears that this abode had three separate regions as the Rigveda occasionally speaks of Tridiva.

Taking a cue from this reference found in Rigveda, Rajaram Ramkrishna Bhagwat Shastri in his book Key to Interpret Rigveda, Poona, 1907, names these three regions as Prasrauana, Rochaana and Samudra.

As the gods themselves were of three classes e.g. the Vasus, Rudras, and the Adityas, he is of the view that each class may have had a separate region to itself.

The fact that Indra has been called Vasava and also included among Adityas only goes to support the view that there was not one but many Indras.

Now we have to find out whether these places and the three types of gods could be co-related with the region whose centre we have assumed to be Meru i.e. Pamir plateau or not . For this interpretion we will once again have to turn to seek help from the experts from the field of Ancient Geography.

[To be contd...]

 

[drrajpalsingh]

[Contd. from previous post]

Dr. D.P. Misra quotes Dr. M. Ali's identification to substantiate his view on the issue as follows:

The Rigvedic Trideva or the three provinces of Devaloka appear to confirm in the geography of the vast tract formerly called Russian Turkestan [ Kirghiz, Uzbekistan and Turkemenistan] lying to the south of Siberia and extending up to the plateau of the Pamir. This area is situated to the ''North and north-west of the plateau of Pamir [Meru] and which ,may have been the Rigvedic Prasravana, Rochana and Samudra respectively. Turkeministan lies in the vicinity of the Caspian Sea and it may have been appropriately called Samudra. The Puranic names of Kirghizia and Uzbekistan i.e. Samarkand region are Suparsva and Ramanaka."

He goes on to state that the ''Puranic Suparsva is likely to have been the Vedic Prasravana as according to the Vayu Purana the river Bhadrasome [Syr Darya] while passing through the Suparsava mountain throws water like garland which, according to Dr. Muzaffer Ali, is an apt description of Syr Darya, when it flows through Kirghizia. Similarly the name Ramnaka given by the Puranas to the Samarkand region in Uzbekistan, appears synonymous with Rochana and, therefore, the two may be accepted as identical regions.'' ibid, pp 16-17.

This is the identification given to Tridiva of Rigveda and supported by Pauranic literature for regions of Devaloka.

From the minute study of the description it would be found that this Devaloka is not the Uttra Kuru, which extends up to the Arctic ocean but only the southern part of it which is fed by the rivers which have their rise in the glaciers of the Pamirs. The region beyond the sea of Aral was considered unfit for the birth of any kind of cultural life....

Please note that this is the identificaation of Devaloka[Home of 'Indo-European Aryans' and its regions; Puranic and Rigvedic 'Pitrloka or the home of the Indo-Iranians and the battle ground between Devas and asuras yet remain to be identified. Now the post is open for the scholarly comments of the readers.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Before we take up another aspects of the people residing/inhabiting the Pauranic and Rigvedic Devaloka as identified above, let us find out Pitarlok i.e. the region identified with the ancestral habitation of the Iranian 'Aryans' also known as Indo-Iranian Aryans in contrast to Devaloka i.e. region inhabited by Indo-Europeans identified in the above discussion. For this purpose, we will have to turn to the researches carried out with the identification of the regions mentioned in Avesta and corroborated by other sources including literary sources, traditions, archaeology and so on. The views of the learned commentators are invited in this exercise, please.

 

[nrao]

The map of Central Asia [marked red] is reproduced from the Wiki pages of the Jatland.com for use of scholars to locate the exact position of the places being discussed here.

Thanks.

Dr Singh,

The map does not seem right. In above few postings you limit original home to just 3 countries which are immediately west of Pamir but here the red square covers 3-4 times as many countries. Can you please contract the square and re-paste for sake of better accuracy.

Secondly according to you, can Saraswati be placed anywhere on this map.