Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

narenderkharb said:
We are ready to take Purans and astronomical data as historical proof.

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Friend,

Thanks for your earnestness to share your views/ knowledge on any of the events/chronology selected for discussion. We eagerly await your first contribution !

Regards,
 
200px-Aral_map.png



The map indicating original home of the people known as 'Aryans' in the pages of History.
 
Friends,

Taking further the discussion on the rivers of Jambu dvipa as listed in earlier post as Vakshu, Sita, Bhadrasoma and Alakananda their identification is necessary.

D. P. Misra, the author of 'Studies in the Proto-History of India' has thrown a welcome light on the issue. He has based his identification on the study conducted by M. Ali: The Geography of the Puranas.'

Dr. Misra says that: "Among these rivers, Vakshu has been recognised as Oxus or Amu Darya. The Chinese call the Tarim Yarkand river as Sito and there is no dispute about its identification with the Puranic river Sita. Dr. Ali identifies Bhadrasoma with Syr Darya, the Jaxartes of the Greeks, and in view of the weighty arguments advanced by him, we may accept his identification. The fourth river Alakananda is,of course, Ganga. It is important to note that Alakananda is only one of the four Gangas. The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way and thus give all of them the common name of Ganga. Thus according to the Puranas the Oxus (Amu Darya), the Jaxartes (Syr Darya) and Tarim-Yarkand are as much a part of Aksa-Ganga as our Alakananda."

If this identification is acceptable to the scholars, then there is no doubt about tracing the original home of the authors of the Puranas i.e. the proverbial Madhya Desh with Meru in its Centre. This was the land of Devas, the former homeland of the Vedic Aryans.

Next we would take up the identification of the division of the Jambu dvipa into various [Varsas] regions.

But before proceeding further, learned comments of the scholars on this identifications of the rivers are invited on this point.

Thanks and regards,
 
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ravichaudhary said:
In Puranic chronology the current era starts with Kali 1, or 3102 BCE.

The Mahabharat war is dated kali -37 or 3139 BCE

The Yudhisthra era starts in Kali +25 or 3077 BCE, at his death . This era is also known as the Laukika era or the Sapt Rishi era, and is still used in Kashmir, and the hill areas, for religious festival dating, astrology etc etc.

There are astronomical references in the MBH, and following them can help in determining if the chronology makes sense or not.

The Vedas also contain astronomical references and can help dating the society and the information i





Ravi Chaudhary
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Thanks Ravi and Rajpal ji for setting agenda ...Two things we can discuss Vedic Geography and use of astronomy in dating certain events .


Astronomy can always be used in establishing dates of certain historical event though it has some inherent danger if the original author has erred or used guess work but taking a positive view it is a scientific tool to date important historical events

leaving possiblity of error that is always present while discussing matters of ancient times.So I have no objection to Ravi views regarding use of astronomy.

So far so good.
 
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ravichaudhary said:
For eaxample the IVC or Sarasvati-Sindu(SS) civilization society knows altars, shaped as a falcon. The sulbassutras( a section of the vedic literrature), contains detailed mathematical methodology for the construction of such an altar.


We know the IVC or SS is dated 3,000 BCE on. The sulba sutras would then also have to dated to this period, and not to 600 BCE as Aryan invasion theory historians would like us to believe they should be dated.

The Rig veda composition would also be pushed back accordingly.

With the link between the SS civilization and the Vedas established, the cultural millieu would also stand established.


Hope this helps

Ravi Chaudhary
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Here Ravi ji relied high on speculation by others and then stretched it to one sulabh sutra that may have nothing to do with Fire pit.

These Fire pits that may have been used for burning wood or cooking food were presented as altars by some and equally contested by others.Even adivasis make pits for lighting fire that doesn't mean they are performing Yagna there

Had it been site for Yagayna or Altar the script and language of Indus Valley people should have beenBrahmi Sanskrit or a variant of that as Both Sulabhsutra or God to whom scarifice was offered were supposed to know sanskrit language of Gods .And Indus script shouldn't have been such a puzzle. .IVC people buried their dead against the advice of Puranas it is not difficult to guess they were ignorant to vedic preaching .

So treating a fire pit first as an altar and then predating a book that deals with altar is pure imaginative argument stretched far too much.


Now Puranic Chronology dates Mahabharata on Astronomical events to approximately 3000 BC.


And just some time back even as we discussed here Historians like(B Lal) found no traces of Archaeological evidence in Hastinapur prior to 1000 BC aappox.

So What is the conclusion than .............


Either Mahabharata was not fought In Hastinapur of India...

Or Astronomical datas are wrong iin Purana .

Please share views which one is right?
 
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DrRajpalSingh said:
Friends,

Taking further the discussion on the rivers of Jambu dvipa as listed in earlier post as Vakshu, Sita, Bhadrasoma and Alakananda their identification is necessary.

D. P. Misra, the author of 'Studies in the Proto-History of India' has thrown a welcome light on the issue. He has based his identification on the study conducted by M. Ali: The Geography of the Puranas.'

Dr. Misra says that: "Among these rivers, Vakshu has been recognised as Oxus or Amu Darya. The Chinese call the Tarim Yarkand river as Sito and there is no dispute about its identification with the Puranic river Sita. Dr. Ali identifies Bhadrasoma with Syr Darya, the Jaxartes of the Greeks, and in view of the weighty arguments advanced by him, we may accept his identification. The fourth river Alakananda is,of course, Ganga. It is important to note that Alakananda is only one of the four Gangas. The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way and thus give all of them the common name of Ganga. Thus according to the Puranas the Oxus (Amu Darya), the Jaxartes (Syr Darya) and Tarim-Yarkand are as much a part of Aksa-Ganga as our Alakananda."

If this identification is acceptable to the scholars, then there is no doubt about tracing the original home of the authors of the Puranas i.e. the proverbial Madhya Desh with Meru in its Centre. This was the land of Devas, the former homeland of the Vedic Aryans.

Next we would take up the identification of the division of the Jambu dvipa into various [Varsas] regions.

But before proceeding further, learned comments of the scholars on this identifications of the rivers are invited on this point.

Thanks and regards,
Click to expand...


Identification of rivers seems justified.However inference iconfusing as how can we draw original home of Aryans as Medhaya desa from this .Even later home different from Aryavijo (identified with Ajerbaijan,Nisa,Siberia or Pamir by different authors )was Aryavarta

This later extended eastward in Later Puranas and only lately term Madhyadesa came in use.

So before Madhyadesa we should focus on Aryanam Vaijo or atleast Aryavarta of Vedic age if Aryanam Vijo is too difficult to find out.
 
narenderkharb said:
Here Ravi ji relied high on speculation by others and then stretched it to one sulabh sutra that may have nothing to do with Fire pit.

These Fire pits that may have been used for burning wood or cooking food were presented as altars by some and equally contested by others.Even adivasis make pits for lighting fire that doesn't mean they are performing Yagna there?
Click to expand...


If this Fire pit, happens to be dated circa 3000 BCE then a layman like me will draw the conclusion that the knowledge existed in 3000 BCE to construct the aforesaid Fire pit

If the 'Fire Pit" is designed with a complex geometric design, and that design happens to be found in the sulbasutra, then for a layman like me, the two are linked.


If the fire pit also happens to follow be geometrically aligned with astronomical patterns, then a layman like me will also conclude that knowledge of astronomy existed at that time.


A coincidence, but there it is.


Ravi Chaudhary
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Friends,

Taking further the discussion on the rivers of Jambu dvipa as listed in earlier post as Vakshu, Sita, Bhadrasoma and Alakananda their identification is necessary.

D. P. Misra, the author of 'Studies in the Proto-History of India' has thrown a welcome light on the issue. He has based his identification on the study conducted by M. Ali: The Geography of the Puranas.'

Dr. Misra says that: "Among these rivers, Vakshu has been recognised as Oxus or Amu Darya. The Chinese call the Tarim Yarkand river as Sito and there is no dispute about its identification with the Puranic river Sita. Dr. Ali identifies Bhadrasoma with Syr Darya, the Jaxartes of the Greeks, and in view of the weighty arguments advanced by him, we may accept his identification. The fourth river Alakananda is,of course, Ganga. It is important to note that Alakananda is only one of the four Gangas. The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way and thus give all of them the common name of Ganga. Thus according to the Puranas the Oxus (Amu Darya), the Jaxartes (Syr Darya) and Tarim-Yarkand are as much a part of Aksa-Ganga as our Alakananda."

If this identification is acceptable to the scholars, then there is no doubt about tracing the original home of the authors of the Puranas i.e. the proverbial Madhya Desh with Meru in its Centre. This was the land of Devas, the former homeland of the Vedic Aryans.

Next we would take up the identification of the division of the Jambu dvipa into various [Varsas] regions.

But before proceeding further, learned comments of the scholars on this identifications of the rivers are invited on this point.

Thanks and regards,
Click to expand...

For some reason , lay persons like me, do not see the light, let alone "welcome light" , shed by D P Misra.

He himself admits, that he relying upon Mr. Ali's work, i.e he had not done any critical evaluation.


Claiming that as the Chinese called the Yarkhnad river as Sito, Mr Misra leaps to the conclusion that the identification between the Yarkhand and Sita is firmly established.


This is just plain silly.

If we accept Misra's claim, he is telling us the vedic people's phonetics was such a disaster that they mis- pronounced the Rive Sita as the River Yarkhand.


" quote " The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way"


Misra misses the important clue" , that the Akash Ganga is literally the milky way"

As an aside, Misra has too many ifs and buts, that does not make a history text

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary
 
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ravichaudhary said:
If the fire pit also happens to follow be geometrically aligned with astronomical patterns, then a layman like me will also conclude that knowledge of astronomy existed at that time.


A coincidence, but there it is.


Ravi Chaudhary
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Ravi ji

You are much learned senior than a novice like me and that is from heart I hope you won't take my argument otherwise .

IVC was certainly more advanced than Vedic civilization no doubt about that .

Now whether the Fire pit of IVC was geometrically aligned to astronomical patterns I am not sure .you can further elobrate that.

Anyway Please give your views on others issues raised in the post.
 
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You have to make a little effort. Simply claiming to be novice, will not suffice.

Search for : Harappa astronomy

https://www.google.ca/search?q=hara...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


You will find plenty of links.

Briefly , if the reader is willing to put aside the pre-conceptions, and not be clouded by religion, myth, and outright prejudice, then there is plenty of data and information.

The core essence is that the Indian researchers are getting into their stride, and bringing up new material which debunks colonial myths

One such group The Tata institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai, Dept Of Astrophysics.

They have a list of papers which they have put on their site.

Two names that come to mind are:

Vahia, Menon

Harappan astronomy: Vahia and Sukumar


http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Harappan Civilisation/Harappan Astronomy.pdf

http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Harappan Civilisation/Observatory at Dholavira.pdf

A possible astronomical observatory at Dholavira
M N Vahia1, 2 and Srikumar M Menon3



Another useful paper is by Professor Subash Kak

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1002/1002.4513.pdf

He writes :

“ The sacred ground for Vedic ritual is the precursor to the temple. The Vedic observances were
connected with the circuits of the sun and the moon (Kak, 1993; Kak, 1995; Kak, 1996). The altar ritual
was associated with the east‐west axis and we can trace its origins to priests who maintained different
day counts with respect to the solstices and the equinoxes. Specific days were marked with ritual
observances that were done at different times of the day.
Figure 6. The three altars of the Vedic house: circular
(earth, body), half‐moon (atmosphere, prāna), square (sky, consciousness)
In the ritual at home, the householder employed three altars that are circular (earth), half‐moon
(atmosphere), and square (sky), which are like the head, the heart, and the body of the Cosmic Man
(Purusha). In the Agnichayana, the great ritual of the Vedic times that forms a major portion of the
narrative of the Yajurveda, the atmosphere and the sky altars are built afresh in a great ceremony to the
east. This ritual is based upon the Vedic division of the universe into three parts of earth, atmosphere,
and sky that are assigned numbers 21, 78, and 261, respectively. The numerical mapping is maintained
by placement of 21 pebbles around the earth altar, sets of 13 pebbles around each of 6 intermediate
(13¯6=78) altars, and 261 pebbles around the great new sky altar called the Uttara‐vedi, which is built
in the shape of a falcon; these numbers add up to 360, which is symbolic representation of the year. The
proportions related to these three numbers, and others related to the motions of the planets, and angles
related to the sightings of specific stars are reflected in the plans of the temples of the historical period
(Kak, 2002b; Kak, 2006a; Kak, 2009; Kaulācara, 1966).
Figure 7. The falcon altar of the Agnichayana altar
The Agnichayana altar is the prototype of the temple and of the tradition of architecture (Vāstu). The
altar is first built of 1,000 bricks in five layers (that symbolically represent the five divisions of the year,
the five physical elements, as well as five senses) to specific designs. The altar is constructed in a
sequence of 95 years, whose details are matched to the reconciliation of the lunar and solar years by

means of intercalary months”




http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/george/vedi.html


This is a western University, extract from the School of Architecture.


“The second step in the construction of the altar is to determine its location and orientation. The orientation is both spatial and temporal; the orienting procedure determines not only the direction of the ritual object, but also the time of its construction. Similar procedures were utilized to orient any propitious event.
The simplest procedures for determining time and orientation in the Indian tradition utilize gnomons and ropes. The earliest example of the application of this technique occurs in the orientation of the Vedic sacrificial altar. The shadow of a gnomon is used to determine the primary, east-west line, and pegs, cords, and rods are used to layout a square of 240 x 240 angulas,



Note the requirement East – West orientation of the Fire Pits

Couple this with the observatory at Dholvira and you get an idea of the sophistication of astronomy and mathematics in the Harapan age.





Ravi Chaudhary
 
ravichaudhary said:
You have to make a little effort. Simply claiming to be novice, will not suffice.

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Note the requirement East – West orientation of the Fire Pits

Couple this with the observatory at Dholvira and you get an idea of the sophistication of astronomy and mathematics in the Harapan age.





Ravi Chaudhary
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I have read such stuff many times point is...... Does it suggest inferences that you drew out of these articles?

We know very well that IVC was far too superior civilization so mention of a structure that well may be observatory is no way connected with our argument of borrowing knowledge from vedic civilization.

If you read critically article by Vahia and quotation by Asko Parpola in very same article suggest that knowledge of IVC may have used by later vedic civilization, this he mentions clearly ,no where he suggests that reverse is true

Parpola suggested a southern connection for IVC rather a vedic in his other articles.


Regarding Fire pits ,they are neither circular nor rectangualr in Kaibanga shape is rather oblong defying sulabsutra ,more like Chullahs/Haras of our own houces

They are lined with clay inside as our mothers used to put in our chullahs ...there are burnt clay humps and semioval terracota plates used to hold pot for heating inside these hearths
there are bones of animals and antlers beside these hearths ,fire pits that suggested their cooking of animal parts .

There is a difference in Fire altar termed Vedi in Indian language and a firepit /kund /hara chullaha
Here we donot use terracota plates to offer to God or don't roast animals in vedis that defiles that Yagna .

I may contnue but you can just google Fire altars of IVC and read lot about them.


Regarding Kak he doesn/t explain IVC fire altars ....he tells us about vedic system.


To summerise ....Advancement of IVC in astronomy is no way can be taken as proof of its vedic relationship.


Second these fire pits or hearths/kils /kunds are present in all shapes oval oblong circular in all direction doesn't follow a regular geometric pattern.in different locations,.so should not be treated as some Vedi/Altars .
They have pebbles for retaining heats ,Terracota plates for holding pots ...have burnt cakes that accumulate in hearths not in Altars /Vedis that are cleared before every Yagna .......have beside them bones and antlers so doesn't seem to be classified some vedis of Sulabhsutra....Hence suggestion for Altars should be outright negated.
Some biased writers suggested semioval tericotta plates as two possible halves of lingam but how can you put lungam in fire and then offer ghee and animals to him . We must apply our own critical review besides reading findings of authors like Kak etc..

I was expecting response from scholars on my second question about Mahabharta times raised in earlier post.


Warm Regards
 
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Thanks Kharb Sahib for your comments.


As already hinted in my earlier post, I will try to throw light on the issue raised in the next post based on the identification of Trigratas and " the identification of the division of the Jambu dvipa into various [Varsas] regions" as mentioned in Puranas and other literature.

Thanks.
 
ravichaudhary said:
For some reason , lay persons like me, do not see the light, let alone "welcome light" , shed by D P Misra.

He himself admits, that he relying upon Mr. Ali's work, i.e he had not done any critical evaluation.


Claiming that as the Chinese called the Yarkhnad river as Sito, Mr Misra leaps to the conclusion that the identification between the Yarkhand and Sita is firmly established.


This is just plain silly.

If we accept Misra's claim, he is telling us the vedic people's phonetics was such a disaster that they mis- pronounced the Rive Sita as the River Yarkhand.


" quote " The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way"


Misra misses the important clue" , that the Akash Ganga is literally the milky way"

As an aside, Misra has too many ifs and buts, that does not make a history text

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary
Click to expand...


Sito was ancient name ....Yarkand is later that doesn't mean Yarkand was derived out of Sito ....Like Jehlumof today was known Vitasta earlier that doesn't mean jehlum has to be derived out of Vitasta.

Tahks and Regards.
 
ravichaudhary said:
For some reason , lay persons like me, do not see the light, let alone "welcome light" , shed by D P Misra.

He himself admits, that he relying upon Mr. Ali's work, i.e he had not done any critical evaluation.


Claiming that as the Chinese called the Yarkhnad river as Sito, Mr Misra leaps to the conclusion that the identification between the Yarkhand and Sita is firmly established.


This is just plain silly.

If we accept Misra's claim, he is telling us the vedic people's phonetics was such a disaster that they mis- pronounced the Rive Sita as the River Yarkhand.


" quote " The Puranas treat all the four rivers mentioned above as having their source in Akasa-Ganga falling on the top of Meru from their source in the Milky Way"


Misra misses the important clue" , that the Akash Ganga is literally the milky way"

As an aside, Misra has too many ifs and buts, that does not make a history text

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary
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Chaudhary Sahib,

You will agree that quoting other scholars studies by citing the source is an accepted norm in research studies, hence, Dr. Dwivedi has followed the normal method of historicaal research methodology.

If we do not agree with his identification of the rivers mentioned above, we may provide other more convincing identifications based on sources of information to counter them.

Kindly enlighten us about the meaning of the ''Akash Ganga'' which Dr. Misra seems to have missed.

Thanks.
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Chaudhary Sahib,

You will agree that quoting other scholars studies by citing the source is an accepted norm in research studies, hence, Dr. Dwivedi has followed the normal method of historicaal research methodology.

If we do not agree with his identification of the rivers mentioned above, we may provide other more convincing identifications based on sources of information to counter them.

Kindly enlighten us about the meaning of the ''Akash Ganga'' which Dr. Misra seems to have missed.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Quoting other writers, scholars is one thing, claiming they are shedding 'welcome light" in another.

If a would be scholar claims to shed 'light, they had better be prepared to defend their claim.

part of the problem, is that would be scholars, get academic posts, and the quote each other, thereby creating a picture of genuine scholarship, which is not there.

Here on this board, let us try and stay away from gratuitious flattery for the sake of it.

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary


P.S. The Akash Ganga is known as the Milky way,in the night sky. A simple inernet serach will provide much information
 
ravichaudhary said:
Quoting other writers, scholars is one thing, claiming they are shedding 'welcome light" in another.

If a would be scholar claims to shed 'light, they had better be prepared to defend their claim.

part of the problem, is that would be scholars, get academic posts, and the quote each other, thereby creating a picture of genuine scholarship, which is not there.

Here on this board, let us try and stay away from gratuitious flattery for the sake of it.

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary


P.S. The Akash Ganga is known as the Milky way,in the night sky. A simple inernet serach will provide much information
Click to expand...

Chaudhary Sahib,

I love your comments and bow my head before your words of wisdom.

But would you be kind enough that instead of replying a direct question on Akash Ganga in your own words by directing me to internet for the information you have, perhaps, committed the same sin for which you have tried to allege other persons' writings on the issue.

With due regards to your great scholarship, permit me to add here that if you have no answer to the simple questions raised, do not be furious and pour your outbursts of anger on the academicians for the posts they hold !



You will appreciate, tolerance and patience towards other persons point of view and right to put questions on the issues being raised in the posts is needed for indulging in a scholarly discussion which it seems has become a very rare thing these days.

Your views on the identification of the original home of the 'Aryans' and their migration/immigration, chronology etc. are, once again, invited not your sermons or admonishes please.

Thanks and regards.
 
Dear Dr. Singh


I thought I had given you my understanding of the " Akash Ganga" as below:

" The Akash Ganga is known as the Milky way,in the night sky.



A simple internet search will provide much information"


The Akash Ganga, is clearly visible in the night sky.




Of course it helps if it is clear night, and there are no clouds



I mentioned the internet as a research tool, for with that, you can see images of teh Milky Way/ Akash Ganga, even when there are clouds.



There is also a lot of astronomical information about the Akash Ganga/ Milky way.



Warm regards





Ravi Chaudhary
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
With due regards to your great scholarship, permit me to add here that if you have no answer to the simple questions raised, do not be furious and pour your outbursts of anger on the academicians for the posts they hold !
Click to expand...



Dr Singh ,



With respect to you and I have pointed this out to you before, Kindly stop drawing defining my comments as " out bursts of anger"




If you see any ' light;' welcoming or otherwise, in D P Misra's work, please draw our attention to it
 
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