Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

To conclude the discussion, a few words.

References regarding Avesta on mention of Sarswati/Harahvaiti has already been given so many times earlier too. For latest post on the issue kindly see the first line of the posts no. 731; and read post 730 also.

For understanding the rules of interchange of Iranian 'H' into Skt. 'S' and other rules governing use of other common words, kindly log in

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/books/read12.html

For better understanding of the old forms of both the languages and their commonality and differences link is:

http://www.libraryindex.com/encyclopedia/pages/cpxktpb906/persia-language-persian-zend.html

Therefore, the issue if the Persian word used for 'Sarasvati' river is verifiable or not on the basis of the change of Skt. 'S' into old Persian 'H', according to the rules applied for inter-changeability of the sounds used in both languages stands resolved .

So far, we have been able to identify three rivers named as 'Saraswati' including the now dried up Indian Sarasvati, and it is expected a few more Indian 'Sarasvati Rivers' , perhaps, could be identified with exactitude, if only, some serious research is undertaken as there are stray references available in the list of Indian Rivers given in our Puranas about the presence of Sarasvati rivers in other parts of India too.

With this the identification of the original home of Aryans and their first Sarasvati issue stands resolved as given in above posts 730-731 of this thread page.





Rajpal ji..I think this thread is far from conclusion. As you are aware of all tools and methods used in reserach of history so CONCLUSDION sounds a big word here and does not fit in thread because fellow members have raised few valid points.
Apart from this from the view of almost a neutral person like me it seems that there are two theories regarding identification of original sarswati and none of them have gota universal acceptance yet but more historians identify sarswati with modern day ghaggar. Please corretc me if I am wrong
 
Rajpal ji..I think this thread is far from conclusion. As you are aware of all tools and methods used in reserach of history so CONCLUSDION sounds a big word here and does not fit in thread because fellow members have raised few valid points.
Apart from this from the view of almost a neutral person like me it seems that there are two theories regarding identification of original sarswati and none of them have gota universal acceptance yet but more historians identify sarswati with modern day ghaggar. Please corretc me if I am wrong

Friend,

You are right to say that no unanimity has been arrived at on certain issues. But it would be appreciated if someone raises valid opposition to the identification of 'Saraswati' in Afghanistan and Iran. If some contrary evidence is available on this point, kindly share !

In addition, I never say about the Indian Saraswati 's absence in literature. The identification of lost saraswati has been traced from Adi Badri in Yamunanagar district in Haryana whereas when we proceed to old bed of lost Saraswati some kilometres further it is also argued that it used to flow in the bed now occupied by Ghaghar which now descends to plains near Panchkula. Then the route followed by these two separate seasonal rivers is different so far as Haryana region is concerned. Therefore the issue has to be reconciled before the latest NASA/ISRO proofs are used to identify it convincingly.

Yes there are signs of old river bed in Haryana, Rajasthan , Bahawalpur and Gujrat which indicate, perhaps, old Saraswati mentoned in our traditional literature once flowed there. But what was the route and place of descendence in plains, remains a point of disagreement.

Which of the two places Adi Badri or Panchkula may be identified, one or both? If one is accepted other has to be automatically rejected. Therefore more research is needed to finalize the Identification of lost Saraswati mentioned in India.

Likewise, one Saraswati is mythically connected with Sangam Story at the merging point, Allahabad i.e. Ganges, Yamuna and Saraswati. There are many other places where claim to the existence of Saraswati are made by some people.

Thanks and regards.
 
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Some persons joined the discussion of the issue of the identification of rivers very late, For their convenience it is pointed out that they should read posts 63 and 64 to understand the rivers and regions by log in :

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?35324-Chronology-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page4


As regards my indentification of some rivers and Ravi Chaudhary's views on the identification of some of the rivers initially, kindly turn to posts 43 and 44 :

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...ogy-of-Indian-History-Newer-discussions/page3

However, due to certain reasons, we have been deprived of his latest views, perhaps, due to his other pressing engagements. If he is free from his pre-engagements, he can benefit us by his expert comments on any of the topic but his name should not be dragged here unnecessarily.

Thanks

63 or 64 mein Avesta se koi shloka nahi diya gaya hai jo yeh bataye ki Iran mein koi Saraswati nadi thhi.

Aap phir dhuppal pila rahe hain.

Kab tak?

Rahi baat Ravi ki aap jathistory ke message padh lijiye pichle chaar paanch din ke. Unhone Avesta ka addhyan kiya hai aur unhe bhi Avesta mein kahin Sarswati nadi ka jikr nahi mila.

Lagta hai Iran ki Saraswati sirf aap hi ko najar aa rahi hai!
 
Therefore the issue has to be reconciled before the latest NASA/ISRO proofs are used to identify it convincingly.
Yeh Issue bahut pehle reconcile ho chuka hai bas kamaal yeh hai ki sirf aap ko nahi maloom hai?

Kya aapne yeh naksha dekha hai: (jo pehle bhi post kiya ja chuka hai!)
http://www.ghumakkar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/map2.jpg

Isme jo kaale bindu hai wahan vaigyanikon ne khudai ki hai. Artharth yeh saraswati nadi , jo ab sookhi hai aur sirf monsoon mein chalti hai, ke dono taraf base hue shahar aur gaon hain. Iska matlab yeh hai ki jab in jagahon pe log thhe 1900 BC se pehle tab is nadi mein paani thha.

Durbhgya ki baat yeh hai ki aap ke Iran me koi Saraswati nahi hai. Dekhna yeh hai ki aap kab is jooth ka sahara chodenge.
 
Apart from this from the view of almost a neutral person like me it seems that there are two theories regarding identification of original sarswati and none of them have gota universal acceptance yet but more historians identify sarswati with modern day ghaggar. Please corretc me if I am wrong

Kya aapko Kocchar ke dwara diye gaye shlok mein Iran ka koi jikr mila?

Ya aap professor sahab ki copy paste se impress ho chuke hain?
 
Kya aapko Kocchar ke dwara diye gaye shlok mein Iran ka koi jikr mila?

Ya aap professor sahab ki copy paste se impress ho chuke hain?

matlab aap chahte hai ki aap jo kah rahe hai wo akashwaani hai..uspe koi kuch nahi bol sakta..aap tark de rahe hai ..theek hai..par iska matlab yeh nahi ki aap jabardasti apni baat manwayenge!!..main pehle bhi kah chuka huin ki aapki baat main bhi dum hai...abhi meri stithi yeh hai ki main decide nahi akr paa raha huin ki kaun si theory sahi hai..to aap apni theory kyoun thop rahe hai..maine aapki theory ko bhi galat nahi kaha aur rajpal ji ki theory ko bhi galat nahi kaha..to aap kyoun jabardasti kewal apni hi baat manwane ki peeche pade hai..yeh sahi tarika nahi hai maamma ji!!
 
63 or 64 mein Avesta se koi shloka nahi diya gaya hai jo yeh bataye ki Iran mein koi Saraswati nadi thhi.

Aap phir dhuppal pila rahe hain.

Kab tak?

Rahi baat Ravi ki aap jathistory ke message padh lijiye pichle chaar paanch din ke. Unhone Avesta ka addhyan kiya hai aur unhe bhi Avesta mein kahin Sarswati nadi ka jikr nahi mila.

Lagta hai Iran ki Saraswati sirf aap hi ko najar aa rahi hai!


Friend,

Everybody is free to participate by posting his views in the debate on the issue here, if someone has solid evidence to deny the statement that there is no Haravaiti/Saraswati in Zend Avesta, he must share here by posting the evidence that he has with him to support his post.

Those who have some knowledge of nomenclatures system of different regions know that the rivers supply names to the regions as Indus river area is known as Indus Valley and then Indus became the root word for Indus to Hind or Indus to India; Ganga river area turned into 'Gangeys region'. In the same way the pious land created by Aura Mazda 10 i.e. Haravaiti [Persian] represents Sarasvati [Skt] and the Haravaiti valley area is mentioned in the Avesta as quoted above.


If this interpretation is not acceptable to someone, then he is free to draw his own conclusion; I have no objection at all.

Regards
 
matlab aap chahte hai ki aap jo kah rahe hai wo akashwaani hai..uspe koi kuch nahi bol sakta..aap tark de rahe hai ..theek hai..par iska matlab yeh nahi ki aap jabardasti apni baat manwayenge!!..main pehle bhi kah chuka huin ki aapki baat main bhi dum hai...abhi meri stithi yeh hai ki main decide nahi akr paa raha huin ki kaun si theory sahi hai..to aap apni theory kyoun thop rahe hai..maine aapki theory ko bhi galat nahi kaha aur rajpal ji ki theory ko bhi galat nahi kaha..to aap kyoun jabardasti kewal apni hi baat manwane ki peeche pade hai..yeh sahi tarika nahi hai maamma ji!!

Aap sawal puuchiye unpe jo aapke man mein sanshaye hain. Thali baith ke nahin kaam chalnega.

Thopne ka koi matlab nahi. Ajaad desh hai Bhaanje jo jiski marji woh soch sake.

Parantu aap yeh bataiye ki saare avesta granth mein ek bhi jagah Saraswati nadi ka ullekh nahi hai. Isse aap kya nishkarsh nikaalte hain?
 
if someone has solid evidence to deny the statement that there is no Haravaiti/Saraswati in Zend Avesta, he must share here by posting the evidence that he has with him to support his post.
aap ke anusaar "solid evidence" kya hai? Falane ne kaha diya ya dikhede ne kaha diya to ho nahi sakta. Mool stotra ko hi maan na padega yani Rigved aur Avesta. Ek taraf Rigved hai jisme aneko jagah Saraswati nadi ka bahut sundar varnan hai.

Aur doosri taraf Avesta hai jisme ek bhi jagah Saraswati nadi ka ullekh nahi hai.

Avesta mein Saraswati nadi ka na likha hona kyon solid evidence nahi hai?
 
The region of Central Asia has witnessed the rise and spread of some of the earliest and greatest civilizations of the world. As is known well, geography is a compelling factor in history, and India is so situated as to have become inevitably the meeting point of the great movements of peoples and ideas which has taken place in Central Asia in particular and Asia in general since times immemorial. From the earliest times, that is as far back as we can go in history, the destiny of India has been closely interlinked with the development in the north and even the mighty Himalayas could not divide and isolate us from the countries beyond.

The time has come when we must think in terms of human civilisation and not merely in terms of a caste a country or region. It is necessary therefore that the much needed cooperation between countries of Central Asia which existed through the ages should be brought on the pages of history. To whichever land our ancestors may have belonged in yore and to whichever country we may belong now this must be our common mission and united effort ''to achieve goodwill between man and man, to establish a secure foundation of fellowship which will save humanity from suicidal war and the savagery of fanatical superstition we must usher in the age of reason, of cooperation, of a generous reciprocity of culture which will reveal the richness of our common humanity.''

This mission could be achieved only if we understand our common roots, the roots that lay in the central Asia of which India was also a part. So let us discover the historical process of the past ages and march forward in finding out the facts of history afresh by using the latest tools of research, the tools like archaeology, numismatics, science, genetics, anthropology and so on. The facts could be gleaned and collected only by applying multi-disciplinary approach, hence an open appeal to all the members of the Jatland forum to join hands to attain this mission.

Hoping for enlightening insights in the form of posts on the topic by the learned participants.


We have to go ahead without anyone pushing us in wrong direction, without losing our identity, without losing our roots and without losing thoughts and values that our ancestors lived and fought for.
 
We have to go ahead without anyone pushing us in wrong direction, without losing our identity, without losing our roots and without losing thoughts and values that our ancestors lived and fought for.

With the change in economical structure of India. It is a hard times for all the communities connected with soil.
 
Aap sawal puuchiye unpe jo aapke man mein sanshaye hain. Thali baith ke nahin kaam chalnega.

Thopne ka koi matlab nahi. Ajaad desh hai Bhaanje jo jiski marji woh soch sake.

Parantu aap yeh bataiye ki saare avesta granth mein ek bhi jagah Saraswati nadi ka ullekh nahi hai. Isse aap kya nishkarsh nikaalte hain?

agar aisi baat hai to aapki baat sahi hai..r..par rajpal ji kah rahe hai ki ullekh hai..baaki mere haath rigved ki pdf to lag gayi hai ..par abhi avesta haath nahi lagi hai...abhi thoda time dijiye hum bhi koshish kar rahe hai :)..
 
Prashan Bhai,

Log in for Avesta English version, please:

http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd1sbe.htm


In addition to having created 10th Land Haravaiti, he is credited with creating 15th land as :

18. The fifteenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Seven Rivers[SUP]42[/SUP].Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created abnormal issues in women, and excessive heat.

<tbody>
[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"][/TD]

[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]42. Hapta hindava, the basin of the affluents of the Indus, the modern Panjab (= the Five Rivers), formerly called Hind, by contradistinction to Sindh, the basin of the lower river. [Hum34: "the PhlT of V1.18 quotes the fragment haca ushastara hinduua auui daosha<s>tarem hindum</s> <s> 'from the eastern river to the western river'.]</s>[/TD]

</tbody>


Kindly read the note and make your own note the words 'Hapta hindava', the basin of the affluent of the Indus.... If this is a valid explanation then proceed to read the

10th holy land Haravaiti/Saraswati posted earlier also and 11th was Helmand as given below:

The tenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the beautiful Harahvaiti[SUP]29[/SUP].Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created a sin for which there is no atonement, the burying of the dead[SUP]30[/SUP].
13. The eleventh of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the bright, glorious Haetumant[SUP]31[/SUP].
Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created the evil work of witchcraft.

<tbody>
[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]29. Harauvati; `Aracwsia ; corrupted into Ar-rokhag (name of the country in the Arabic literature) and Arghand (in the modern name of the river Arghand-âb).30. See Vd3.36 ff .[/TD]

[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]31. The basin of the EtumandroV or Erymanthus, now Hermend, Helmend, that is to say, the region of Saistân.[/TD]

</tbody>

What I suggest is objective study is required for understanding the meaning equally applicable to all three lands as per the situation explained here.

Perhaps, a proper reading of the description it can safely be suggested from this explanatory note that the land/region may safely be identified the basins of the Sarasvati in Iran, Helmand in Sistan and Indus in India.

Thanks.

PS: Perhaps none except a few, who are in a habit of raising a bogey against use of quotes as evidence to support the hypotheses/theses, would object to posting relevant quotes/ information from the sources used by us duly acknowledged.
 
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agar aisi baat hai to aapki baat sahi hai..r..par rajpal ji kah rahe hai ki ullekh hai..baaki mere haath rigved ki pdf to lag gayi hai ..par abhi avesta haath nahi lagi hai...abhi thoda time dijiye hum bhi koshish kar rahe hai :)..

Bahut khoob! Lage raho bhaanje Dilli door nahi!
 
Prashan Bhai,

Log in for Avesta English version, please:

http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd1sbe.htm


In addition to having created 10th Land Haravaiti, he is credited with creating 15th land as :

18. The fifteenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Seven Rivers[SUP]42[/SUP].Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created abnormal issues in women, and excessive heat.

<tbody>
[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"][/TD]

[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]42. Hapta hindava, the basin of the affluents of the Indus, the modern Panjab (= the Five Rivers), formerly called Hind, by contradistinction to Sindh, the basin of the lower river. [Hum34: "the PhlT of V1.18 quotes the fragment haca ushastara hinduua auui daosha<s>tarem hindum</s> <s> 'from the eastern river to the western river'.]</s>[/TD]

</tbody>


Kindly read the note and make your own note the words 'Hapta hindava', the basin of the affluent of the Indus.... If this is a valid explanation then proceed to read the

10th holy land Haravaiti/Saraswati posted earlier also and 11th was Helmand as given below:

The tenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the beautiful Harahvaiti[SUP]29[/SUP].Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created a sin for which there is no atonement, the burying of the dead[SUP]30[/SUP].
13. The eleventh of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the bright, glorious Haetumant[SUP]31[/SUP].
Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created the evil work of witchcraft.

<tbody>
[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]29. Harauvati; `Aracwsia ; corrupted into Ar-rokhag (name of the country in the Arabic literature) and Arghand (in the modern name of the river Arghand-âb).30. See Vd3.36 ff .[/TD]

[TD="class: NOTE, bgcolor: #EEEEEE"]31. The basin of the EtumandroV or Erymanthus, now Hermend, Helmend, that is to say, the region of Saistân.[/TD]

</tbody>

What I suggest is objective study is required for understanding the meaning equally applicable to all three lands as per the situation explained here.

Perhaps, a proper reading of the description it can safely be suggested from this explanatory note that the land/region may safely be identified the basins of the Sarasvati in Iran, Helmand in Sistan and Indus in India.

Thanks.

PS: Perhaps none except a few, who are in a habit of raising a bogey against use of quotes as evidence to support the hypotheses/theses, would object to posting relevant quotes/ information from the sources used by us duly acknowledged.
Aap phir apni wohi baat do raha rahe hain. Saaf likha ka ki Iranyion ke bhagwan ne "jameen" yani land ka nirmaan kiya.

Aapko Avesta se aise shlok ka reference dena hai jisme Saraswati nadi ka kuch roop jhalkata ho jaise ki:
vo behti hai,
ya usme baad aati hai,
yah veh samudra tak milti hai
ya anye visheshan jo uske nadi ke roop ko darshayen.

Kya hai aisa koi saboot?

Aapke reference ke liye kuch shlok Rigved se Saraswati nadi ke vishay mein (aise hi shlok Avesta se chaiye tab maana jayege ki Iran mein Saraswati thhi):

"In the Rig Veda (7.95.1-2, tr. Griffith) the Sarasvati is described as flowing to the ocean:


प्र क्षोदसा धायसा सस्र एषा सरस्वती धरुणमायसी पूः । प्रबाबधाना रथ्येव याति विश्वा अपो महिना सिन्धुरन्याः ॥१॥ एकाचेतत्सरस्वती नदीनां शुचिर्यती गिरिभ्य आ समुद्रात् । रायश्चेतन्ती भुवनस्य भूरेर्घृतं पयो दुदुहे नाहुषाय ॥२॥</pre>


This stream Sarasvati with fostering current comes forth, our sure defence, our fort of iron. As on a car [= chariot], the flood flows on, surpassing in majesty and might all other waters. Pure in her course from mountains to the ocean, alone of streams Sarasvati hath listened. Thinking of wealth and the great world of creatures, she poured for Nahusa her milk and fatness."




"In RV 2.41.16 she is called ámbitame nádītame dévitame sárasvati, "best mother, best river, best goddess"
 
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When none denies the presence of 'Sarasvati' [though now dried up] in Indian part of sub-continent, what do you intend to prove by quoting this or that verse.

The issue is to find out if there are some other rivers than the one mentioned in Indian traditions as river or goddesses bearing name 'Sarasvati.'

And it stands proved that there were a few rivers and goddesses bearing the same name.
 
When none denies the presence of 'Sarasvati' [though now dried up] in Indian part of sub-continent, what do you intend to prove by quoting this or that verse.

Niminlikhit mein aap ko kya samajh main nahi aaya jo aap aise atpate sawaal puch rahe hain? Hindi to kaafi spasht lihki hai neeche!
Aapko Avesta se aise shlok ka reference dena hai jisme Saraswati nadi ka kuch roop jhalkata ho jaise ki:
vo behti hai,
ya usme baad aati hai,
yah veh samudra tak milti hai
ya anye visheshan jo uske nadi ke roop ko darshayen.

Kya hai aisa koi saboot?


And it stands proved that there were a few rivers and goddesses bearing the same name.

Katai Nahi. Aapko Avesta ka reference samajh mein nahi aaya hai. Ho sakta hai Ravi Chaudhary ka lekh aap ki samajh mein acha aaye to jara nosh pharmayen:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7655

aur yeh bhi padhiyega:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/7657
 
Yeh Issue bahut pehle reconcile ho chuka hai bas kamaal yeh hai ki sirf aap ko nahi maloom hai?

Kya aapne yeh naksha dekha hai: (jo pehle bhi post kiya ja chuka hai!)
http://www.ghumakkar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/map2.jpg

Isme jo kaale bindu hai wahan vaigyanikon ne khudai ki hai. Artharth yeh saraswati nadi , jo ab sookhi hai aur sirf monsoon mein chalti hai, ke dono taraf base hue shahar aur gaon hain. Iska matlab yeh hai ki jab in jagahon pe log thhe 1900 BC se pehle tab is nadi mein paani thha.

Durbhgya ki baat yeh hai ki aap ke Iran me koi Saraswati nahi hai. Dekhna yeh hai ki aap kab is jooth ka sahara chodenge.

So ....Yehi Vedic Sarswati thi Kaya...?

Since I am not a regular visitor so pls excuse me if I missed this map earlier.


Now pls tell us about its seven tributaries ...their course as you might have found convincing.

And How Yamuna and Ganga fell in this Sarswati river?

Let us start with this..
 
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When none denies the presence of 'Sarasvati' [though now dried up] in Indian part of sub-continent, what do you intend to prove by quoting this or that verse.

The issue is to find out if there are some other rivers than the one mentioned in Indian traditions as river or goddesses bearing name 'Sarasvati.'

And it stands proved that there were a few rivers and goddesses bearing the same name.


Rajpal ji


He wants to be heard ,Pls give him a chance.
 
Friends,

The issue to be resolved is to find out the location and identification of 'Indian Saraswati', route of its flow either to Sangam at Allahabad or to Kachh-Bhujja and then to Arabian Sea; and other questions about its present substitute names either Ghaggar or the old bed of Yamuna and the place from where it descends to plains in Haryana, when and why did it dry up and the like.

This type of discussion could be taken up in the thread :http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...nology-of-Epic-Mahabharata-and-Bharata-Battle

Thanks
 
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