पी एम हो तो मोदी जैसा...........

[rathiji]

That is the biggest travesty. Thousands of lives were lost and the judiciary is powerless to prosecute him as they are dependent on the investigations and that is where lies the fault.

And I will counter wherever I see fit. You can go on blowing the bugle. To each his own.

I think everything is powerless since 2002 except tongue & fingers of Pseudo-seculars anti- Hindu brigade. The biggest slap to them even after a lot of beating around the bush they could never succeed.

Talk about 2002 and all Saffron sanghis just talk about 1984 and other riots in return like you just did. BJP, Congress, SP...Its all a simple case of pot and kettle calling each other back.

Soldier? Not making much sense here.

Haha. Modi was less popular in 2002 then Pseudo's started their agenda n worked hard to make him popular each n every consecutive years now he is prime minister candidate of BJP with a clean chit from SIT . If you posses some personal jealousy to saffron color or anything it doesn't mean that 2002 is the only riot happened in India. Ok if Soldier doesn't make sense then I would say Pseudo secular cadet.

You never saw could also mean you didn't look hard enough. Try harder. In any case I don't need to give proof of anything to anybody by protesting. I will protest wherever I feel like.

How about I ask you -

Being a Hindu, you are more worried about Islamicization and less worried about millions of low caste Hindus still subjugated by higher caste Hindus. I never saw you protesting or denouncing caste system.

Being a Jat - why don't you protest more about bias against the community and media vendetta against Khaps?

Now you get the point? Just because one doesn't see someone protesting doesn't mean the issue doesn't matter.

Here I pressed the right button. You don't care about anti-sikh riots but beat drums on Gujrat riots that you proved by bringing out of context things in discussion just to cover frustration. Like casteism, Khaps etc. I hope you stick to riots as you are the one who started this topic

 

[soroutvirender]

bhai ji, modi ki ideology is very different.
aap press ki baatein mat suno, kabhi khud uske bhasan suno.
india ko netao ki jarurat nahi ek ruler ki jarurat hei. raaj kaise karte hein hum sabko batayenge.
its kinda similar to wt hitler told in germaney.

 

[prikshit]

Jitn kichad fekoge utna Kamal khilega..... When it comes to 84 roits law will take its course, when it comes to Corruption cases law will take its course...now when it comes to modi even clin chit won't do. What is the criteria could anybody from anti-modi brigade explain this

 

[swaich]

I think everything is powerless since 2002 except tongue & fingers of Pseudo-seculars anti- Hindu brigade. The biggest slap to them even after a lot of beating around the bush they could never succeed.

The SC is powerless everywhere. Rarely are politicians punished for abetting riots. Its the same story everywhere. But since its Modi's PM candidature being discussed, 2002 will come up.

Haha. Modi was less popular in 2002 then Pseudo's started their agenda n worked hard to make him popular each n every consecutive years now he is prime minister candidate of BJP with a clean chit from SIT . If you posses some personal jealousy to saffron color or anything it doesn't mean that 2002 is the only riot happened in India. Ok if Soldier doesn't make sense then I would say Pseudo secular cadet.

Actually opposition to Modi grew parallel to his support.

Its not the colour, its the fascist attitudes that go with it that are the problem.

Here I pressed the right button. You don't care about anti-sikh riots but beat drums on Gujrat riots that you proved by bringing out of context things in discussion just to cover frustration. Like casteism, Khaps etc. I hope you stick to riots as you are the one who started this topic

You couldn't press a rubber duck if you wanted to, let alone my buttons.

My opposition to issues and people doesn't need a certificate from you either.

Do check. My posts about 2002 riots in this thread have been present right from the first page till the last and will possibly continue till he owns up to it or suffers some consequence.

 

[virj]

The SC is powerless everywhere. Rarely are politicians punished for abetting riots. Its the same story everywhere. But since its Modi's PM candidature being discussed, 2002 will come up.

That is a big statement. So who will decide whether someone is culprit or not? Somnath Bharti or may be someone from Jatland? If BJP supporters are fascist then this statement looks like favour Anarchrism. Both are equally wrong in my opinion.

We use this excuse to support our own agena/proganada/theory. People who favour Modi will say that SC gave him clean chit so he is clean. People who oppose him will say SC is powerless. Theories just to suit our own agenda. Fact is that his direct involvement cannot be proved yet and we have to respect that decision however he should take up the moral responcibilty and not just him Mulayam and Son should take it for Mujafarnagar and Congress should for numerous riots under their rule.

 

[rsdalal]

Nitish bihari kee kaanch te ibbe aur likdegi, jib Congress bhee Lalu te alliance kar le gee....

Bhaisaab Raka,

Ye sab mudde ab peechhey chhoot gaye hain aur Modi pradhaanmantri ke liye strongest umeedwaar ban gaye hain!!
Aur aapke is Nitish Kumar ki kaanch likadni tay hai !!! 10 seat bhi nahi aawengi JDU ki 40 mein se.....

 

[rsdalal]

SC is powerless, so Swaich bhai will decide and all have to abide by his decision.

That is a big statement. So who will decide whether someone is culprit or not? Somnath Bharti or may be someone from Jatland? If BJP supporters are fascist then this statement looks like favour Anarchrism. Both are equally wrong in my opinion.

We use this excuse to support our own agena/proganada/theory. People who favour Modi will say that SC gave him clean chit so he is clean. People who oppose him will say SC is powerless. Theories just to suit our own agenda. Fact is that his direct involvement cannot be proved yet and we have to respect that decision however he should take up the moral responcibilty and not just him Mulayam and Son should take it for Mujafarnagar and Congress should for numerous riots under their rule.

 

[swaich]

That is a big statement. So who will decide whether someone is culprit or not? Somnath Bharti or may be someone from Jatland? If BJP supporters are fascist then this statement looks like favour Anarchrism. Both are equally wrong in my opinion.

We use this excuse to support our own agena/proganada/theory. People who favour Modi will say that SC gave him clean chit so he is clean. People who oppose him will say SC is powerless. Theories just to suit our own agenda. Fact is that his direct involvement cannot be proved yet and we have to respect that decision however he should take up the moral responcibilty and not just him Mulayam and Son should take it for Mujafarnagar and Congress should for numerous riots under their rule.

Vir bhai, it doesn't take a PhD to figure out the impact-less powers of the judiciary, especially its highest form - Supreme Court. The SC has made critical observations on Modi and his govt's conduct during the riots but beyond that it couldn't do anything or it was powerless to act.

For all the powers vested in it, it cannot function on its own. It needs the support of foolproof investigations, with witness statements, records and all other supporting facts to exercise its powers. And all this cannot be accomplished without a political will to ensure justice is done and perpetrators are punished. That is where the role of the state comes in. We as a nation have the malaise of collective amnesia where we forget and forgive. But the state has to rise beyond it and make sure justice is done for everyone. That is where instance like giving tickets to Sajjan Kumar, Bhagat etc, making Mayaben Kodnani a minster and rewarding MLAs accused in Muzaffarnagar violence come up. It smacks of not only a lack of conscience but of ownership - forgive and forget.

We know how easy it is to fudge records, obfuscate information and scare witnesses in our country to disallow any collection of infromation. Just yesterday. I was hearing a senior journalist mention how when he went proactively to the Mishra Commission to share his eye witness account of Congress politicians bullying policemen in 1984, he was asked to produce two further witnesses to corroborate his statement! Imagine a person taking on grave personal risk to go against politicians and police and then being asked to produce more witnesses.

In my experience with 1984 survivors, no riot victim wishes to remember the pain. Its harrowing for them to recount the details and relive the pain of seeing their loved ones killed in front of them. So it takes extreme courage for some like Zakia Jaffri to continue and fight the system. But whats worse is to see their testimonies tossed into the dustbin and fake cases brought against them as in the case of many in 1984 riots.

Now you could dismiss all that I wrote above as arguments to support my own agenda/propaganda/theory. But put yourself in the place of a riot victim and think of all the ways the system can subvert your demand for justice. That is why I believe that some one who was the head of state when such mass violence happened cannot be guilt free and its only because of the help and negligence of the system/state/govt that the SC has not been able to indict him. This goes for Modi, Mulayam,Rajiv, Thackeray - everyone.

 

[anilsangwan]

Ha ha ha ha ha Sahi kaha sir. "Khaangress+Lalu+Woh kaale muh aala Paswaan+Nitish" ye sab bhi mill jaayein Bihar mein to bhi 10-12 seat se jyaada nahi jeet paayenge....
Modi wave is very strong in UP and Bihar now ( all recent surveys reflect this) and these two states will give Modi more than 60-70 seats in total....

Nitish bihari kee kaanch te ibbe aur likdegi, jib Congress bhee Lalu te alliance kar le gee....

 

[prikshit]

Vir bhai, it doesn't take a PhD to figure out the impact-less powers of the judiciary, especially its highest form - Supreme Court. The SC has made critical observations on Modi and his govt's conduct during the riots but beyond that it couldn't do anything or it was powerless to act.

For all the powers vested in it, it cannot function on its own. It needs the support of foolproof investigations, with witness statements, records and all other supporting facts to exercise its powers. And all this cannot be accomplished without a political will to ensure justice is done and perpetrators are punished. That is where the role of the state comes in. We as a nation have the malaise of collective amnesia where we forget and forgive. But the state has to rise beyond it and make sure justice is done for everyone. That is where instance like giving tickets to Sajjan Kumar, Bhagat etc, making Mayaben Kodnani a minster and rewarding MLAs accused in Muzaffarnagar violence come up. It smacks of not only a lack of conscience but of ownership - forgive and forget.

We know how easy it is to fudge records, obfuscate information and scare witnesses in our country to disallow any collection of infromation. Just yesterday. I was hearing a senior journalist mention how when he went proactively to the Mishra Commission to share his eye witness account of Congress politicians bullying policemen in 1984, he was asked to produce two further witnesses to corroborate his statement! Imagine a person taking on grave personal risk to go against politicians and police and then being asked to produce more witnesses.

In my experience with 1984 survivors, no riot victim wishes to remember the pain. Its harrowing for them to recount the details and relive the pain of seeing their loved ones killed in front of them. So it takes extreme courage for some like Zakia Jaffri to continue and fight the system. But whats worse is to see their testimonies tossed into the dustbin and fake cases brought against them as in the case of many in 1984 riots.

Now you could dismiss all that I wrote above as arguments to support my own agenda/propaganda/theory. But put yourself in the place of a riot victim and think of all the ways the system can subvert your demand for justice. That is why I believe that some one who was the head of state when such mass violence happened cannot be guilt free and its only because of the help and negligence of the system/state/govt that the SC has not been able to indict him. This goes for Modi, Mulayam,Rajiv, Thackeray - everyone.

Mere bhai,
2004-till date UPA hogi center me? Now come to your investigation agencies, are they not under the control of central govt? Still he comes clear, and sickulars term him a murderer, mockery of the judicial system. Bhai Knagress and other sickulars ki patloon gilli hona to swabhavik hai, pankhe Pakistan, China aur US aala ke bhi patt rhe hai...Thodi thawas rakh evrything would get clear in couple of months.

 

[atamjeet78]

 

[swaich]

Mere bhai,
2004-till date UPA hogi center me? Now come to your investigation agencies, are they not under the control of central govt? Still he comes clear, and sickulars term him a murderer, mockery of the judicial system. Bhai Knagress and other sickulars ki patloon gilli hona to swabhavik hai, pankhe Pakistan, China aur US aala ke bhi patt rhe hai...Thodi thawas rakh evrything would get clear in couple of months.

Are you telling me Modi and his machinery did everything to stop the riots and later to bring everyone to justice?

Congress and BJP are two sides of the same coin. What Congress did in 1984, BJP replicated in 2002. Is hamam mein dono hi nange hain.

Regarding investigation agencies - Whatever arrests and convictions have taken in 2002 are due to some level of involvement of central agencies and efforts of common citizens. Otherwise even that wouldn't have happened. But again all locations, witnesses, records reside in Gujarat,so if local agencies don't cooperate nothing substantial can be done.

 

[swaich]

@atamjeet - Only those lacking in empathy, a sense of conscience and gravity of mass violence will ever attempt a comparison.

Does no action on Rajiv or the 1984 perpetrators make Modi look better? What is the logic here - that at least things aren't as bad as 1984? Lets celebrate!

 

[anilsangwan]

नई दिल्ली। 84 दंगों पर दिए गए कांग्रेस उपाध्यक्ष राहुल गांधी के बयान से खफा सिख संगठन आज उनके घर के बाहर प्रदर्शन करेंगे। इसको देखते हुए कांग्रेस मुख्यालय और उनके घर के बाहर सुरक्षा कड़ी कर दी गई है। राहुल ने एक निजी चैनल को दिए साक्षात्कार में 84 दंगों पर विवादास्पद बयान दिया था। पहली बार किसी न्यूज चैनल पर बातचीत के दौरान राहुल गांधी ने सिख दंगों पर कहा था कि 1984 के सिख दंगों के दौरान सरकार कत्लेआम में शामिल नहीं थी। जब उनसे 84 दंगों को लेकर माफी मांगने को कहा गया तो उन्होंने कहा कि वह सिख दंगों में शामिल नहीं थे। उन्होंने कहा था कि कुछ कांग्रेसी लोग 1984 के सिख विरोधी दंगों में शायद संलिप्त थे और इसके लिए उन्हें सजा दी गई है।



.
या खांग्रेस जब भी मोदी खत्र कोये नयी कब्र खोदे स..... उस कब्र में राहुल गाँधी पेहलम कूद जा स।........ हा हा हा हा हा हा हा

 

[rathiji]

The SC is powerless everywhere. Rarely are politicians punished for abetting riots. Its the same story everywhere. But since its Modi's PM candidature being discussed, 2002 will come up.

Mockery of Indian establishment or lost with argument . It's better you decide. SIT was under direct control of Supreme court and other agencies were in direct control of UPA/Congress then MODI got clean chit. 2002 was the first riot or may the last till date which was followed, debated, investigated rigorously, talked, hated, discussed, politically used for over a decade & then MODI came clean out of it. He is not only BJP prime minister candidate also most favoured PM candidate across political spectrum in India.

Actually opposition to Modi grew parallel to his support.

Its not the colour, its the fascist attitudes that go with it that are the problem.

So keep working on your agenda he will draw supporters proportionally, this is fact that MODI development model can be discussed & debated . It can have pros & cons. He can be a better PM or may be not. But a bunch of anti-Hindu groups are still living in nostalgia of 2002 and unnecessarily want to portray him culprit ever after thorough investigations for over a decade. He is a three time democratically elected leader , faced investigation from SIT , got clean chit . Is this fasicm ? The problem with some groups in India is color/saffron/Hindu not Modi or BJP .

You couldn't press a rubber duck if you wanted to, let alone my buttons.

My opposition to issues and people doesn't need a certificate from you either.

Do check. My posts about 2002 riots in this thread have been present right from the first page till the last and will possibly continue till he owns up to it or suffers some consequence.

I think it's better if we talk about the topic you raised ,i.e, communal riots. I am not here to issue certificates and if I were issuing you would never get it because of eligibility criteria.

You raised 2002 issue and I put forward my points . Finally, after losing the legal battle your arguments is that SC is powerless n gave a wrong clean chit to Modi. When SC convicts Maya Kodnani, Babu Bajrangi & 28 others in 2002 riots then SC was not powerless and was upholding constitution & values. You can't do cherry picking , if SC can't function properly then you should accept that Maya & 28 others may be falsely convicted.

Now for 1984 for which you are least interested , there was no SIT no conviction of any politician in 30 years. There was direct involvement of Congress politicians and every one knows about it. you could have saved ur argument of Powerless judiciary and would have used it in this case. I think you just need to flip and ur arguments fall in line with reality.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ake-calls-from-prez-after-84-riots-broke-out/

 

[prikshit]

Are you telling me Modi and his machinery did everything to stop the riots and later to bring everyone to justice?

Congress and BJP are two sides of the same coin. What Congress did in 1984, BJP replicated in 2002. Is hamam mein dono hi nange hain.

Regarding investigation agencies - Whatever arrests and convictions have taken in 2002 are due to some level of involvement of central agencies and efforts of common citizens. Otherwise even that wouldn't have happened. But again all locations, witnesses, records reside in Gujarat,so if local agencies don't cooperate nothing substantial can be done.

Thanks for the enlightenment.
I will say two things
1) The nature of roits is different (1984: Due to a family, which could have been controlled, because it was Kngress and its supportes who had executed. Gandi family could have stopped it as they were in full control of the govt machinery).
2) 2002 : It was between two communities (Modi was new CM, and the adjoining congress states had helped him a lot hehe) I am not saying what had happend there was good in any sense. Par sirf mudda banaya gya tha and itni conviction gujarat me hui hai utni India me kisi roits me bta de bhai

PS: Kuch muddo pe rajneeti karte aur kuch log murdo pe rajneeti karte hai.

 

[virj]

Vir bhai, it doesn't take a PhD to figure out the impact-less powers of the judiciary, especially its highest form - Supreme Court. The SC has made critical observations on Modi and his govt's conduct during the riots but beyond that it couldn't do anything or it was powerless to act.

For all the powers vested in it, it cannot function on its own. It needs the support of foolproof investigations, with witness statements, records and all other supporting facts to exercise its powers. And all this cannot be accomplished without a political will to ensure justice is done and perpetrators are punished. That is where the role of the state comes in. We as a nation have the malaise of collective amnesia where we forget and forgive. But the state has to rise beyond it and make sure justice is done for everyone. That is where instance like giving tickets to Sajjan Kumar, Bhagat etc, making Mayaben Kodnani a minster and rewarding MLAs accused in Muzaffarnagar violence come up. It smacks of not only a lack of conscience but of ownership - forgive and forget.

We know how easy it is to fudge records, obfuscate information and scare witnesses in our country to disallow any collection of infromation. Just yesterday. I was hearing a senior journalist mention how when he went proactively to the Mishra Commission to share his eye witness account of Congress politicians bullying policemen in 1984, he was asked to produce two further witnesses to corroborate his statement! Imagine a person taking on grave personal risk to go against politicians and police and then being asked to produce more witnesses.

In my experience with 1984 survivors, no riot victim wishes to remember the pain. Its harrowing for them to recount the details and relive the pain of seeing their loved ones killed in front of them. So it takes extreme courage for some like Zakia Jaffri to continue and fight the system. But whats worse is to see their testimonies tossed into the dustbin and fake cases brought against them as in the case of many in 1984 riots.

Now you could dismiss all that I wrote above as arguments to support my own agenda/propaganda/theory. But put yourself in the place of a riot victim and think of all the ways the system can subvert your demand for justice. That is why I believe that some one who was the head of state when such mass violence happened cannot be guilt free and its only because of the help and negligence of the system/state/govt that the SC has not been able to indict him. This goes for Modi, Mulayam,Rajiv, Thackeray - everyone.

Jaspreet,

I am not going to dismiss what you wrote in fact I agree to most of it. My point was that was he directly involved or not? We don't have a single proof as yet. Has he destroyed all proofs? May be but 2002 was the first riots in India where we had lot of scrutiny from media plus Congress was in the power straight after the riots and they did all they could to find direct links. Still the fact is it still cannot be proved.

I value human life more than anything. I can feel the pain of the people who has lost their loved ones. I want full accountability too and that is why said that he is still accountable as a Chief Minister. Should he be punished for that reason? Honestly I do want and that will make them more accountable but alas in the eye of Law he is not guilty. Still I want him to be punished too at least he should have resigned but why only him? Why not Gandhi Parivar ? Why not Mulayam ? Why people only talk about him? They call him murderer but what about others? This is the double standard I was referring to which people use to push their agenda.

You probably believe that he is murderer and I respect your opinion ( I know this is not your agenda and you sincerely believe what you are saying ) but brother there are lot who believes he is not. I know our legal system has lot of shortcomings like in Salman Khan case it is hanging on and on for so long that he has all the time in the world to kill witness/turn them hostile. Our legal system fail to deliver justice lot of time ,totally agree here, but it is the same legal system who has convicted people like Sanjay Dutt. In Modi's case at least there wasn't that kind of delay. While accepting all the shortcomings in legal system I still have faith in it.

 

[prikshit]

Jaspreet,

I am not going to dismiss what you wrote in fact I agree to most of it. My point was that was he directly involved or not? We don't have a single proof as yet. Has he destroyed all proofs? May be but 2002 was the first riots in India where we had lot of scrutiny from media plus Congress was in the power straight after the riots and they did all they could to find direct links. Still the fact is it still cannot be proved.

I value human life more than anything. I can feel the pain of the people who has lost their loved ones. I want full accountability too and that is why said that he is still accountable as a Chief Minister. Should he be punished for that reason? Honestly I do want and that will make them more accountable but alas in the eye of Law he is not guilty. Still I want him to be punished too at least he should have resigned but why only him? Why not Gandhi Parivar ? Why not Mulayam ? Why people only talk about him? They call him murderer but what about others? This is the double standard I was referring to which people use to push their agenda.

You probably believe that he is murderer and I respect your opinion ( I know this is not your agenda and you sincerely believe what you are saying ) but brother there are lot who believes he is not. I know our legal system has lot of shortcomings like in Salman Khan case it is hanging on and on for so long that he has all the time in the world to kill witness/turn them hostile. Our legal system fail to deliver justice lot of time ,totally agree here, but it is the same legal system who has convicted people like Sanjay Dutt. In Modi's case at least there wasn't that kind of delay. While accepting all the shortcomings in legal system I still have faith in it.

Kudos!!! You nailed it and summed it up in better words, leaving no space for Jaspreet bhai to counter your views :victorious:

 

[desijat]

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Clearly what is said cant be enough to frame someone but does show ones intention

 

[swaich]

Mockery of Indian establishment or lost with argument . It's better you decide. SIT was under direct control of Supreme court and other agencies were in direct control of UPA/Congress then MODI got clean chit. 2002 was the first riot or may the last till date which was followed, debated, investigated rigorously, talked, hated, discussed, politically used for over a decade & then MODI came clean out of it. He is not only BJP prime minister candidate also most favoured PM candidate across political spectrum in India.

Do you know why was SIT constituted? The SC had to intervene as Modi and his establishment were hardly conducting any investigation of their own. Even after SIT was constituted, they couldn't do much as Gujarat establishment never cooperated. 2000 cases were closed by Gujarat police due to lack of evidence. After SIT's intervention, 1600 of these were reopened and inquiries were begun against mre than 50 police officers. Do you think the police were helping the rioteers on their own? They didn't know they had support from the top?

So keep working on your agenda he will draw supporters proportionally, this is fact that MODI development model can be discussed & debated . It can have pros & cons. He can be a better PM or may be not. But a bunch of anti-Hindu groups are still living in nostalgia of 2002 and unnecessarily want to portray him culprit ever after thorough investigations for over a decade. He is a three time democratically elected leader , faced investigation from SIT , got clean chit . Is this fasicm ? The problem with some groups in India is color/saffron/Hindu not Modi or BJP .

Mass support or votes is hardly an indicator of a leader being clean. Hitler to was elected to the German parliament and his supporters filed his rallies.

I think it's better if we talk about the topic you raised ,i.e, communal riots. I am not here to issue certificates and if I were issuing you would never get it because of eligibility criteria.

You raised 2002 issue and I put forward my points . Finally, after losing the legal battle your arguments is that SC is powerless n gave a wrong clean chit to Modi. When SC convicts Maya Kodnani, Babu Bajrangi & 28 others in 2002 riots then SC was not powerless and was upholding constitution & values. You can't do cherry picking , if SC can't function properly then you should accept that Maya & 28 others may be falsely convicted.

Exactly, the smaller fish were caught and the big fish got a clean chit. You quote those names above and still believe they were acting alone?

Now for 1984 for which you are least interested , there was no SIT no conviction of any politician in 30 years. There was direct involvement of Congress politicians and every one knows about it. you could have saved ur argument of Powerless judiciary and would have used it in this case. I think you just need to flip and ur arguments fall in line with reality.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ake-calls-from-prez-after-84-riots-broke-out/

I think you have a comprehension problem as we have gone over this multiple times but it fails to register in your head. I have said multiple times, 1984 can't be compared or discussed to justify 2002. But if you think you can mention 1984 and tell me things I don't already know then you are mistaken.