Missing links in Jat History

Till the end of ice age ( 10000 BC) most of the human civilization existed around equator as northern parts were too cold. Major human migration started northward after the ice age. This was the time when coastal city of Dwarika started sinking into the Arabic sea. There are people in Europe who have surnames "Kans" who talk of migrating from south to north (post Mahabharat);

http://www.familynewsabout.com/archivalHistory.php?id=50176

After this there were back and forth migrations. there is no doubt that cradles of human civilization were near equatorial regions and South Asia was a very important region.

RK^2
 
I came across a very interesting explanation as to why date change started at mid night;

"The present European calendar came into vogue around 7 A.D. India, since ancient times, has been following the lunar calendar. The Western calendar has undergone many variations and adjustments from time to time e.g., at one stage the first six months had 31 days each while the last six months were 30 days each.

Uptil the Mahabharat War the world had a single, unitary administration under Vedic sovereigns, which reckoned the day from sunrise to sunrise centering on India. Consequently, other regions of the world stuck to the Indian time schedule. Thus for instance, when the sun rose in India at around 5.30 am it used to be midnight hour in Britain. Therefore the Vedic administration in Britain calculated its date from midnight to midnight.

When in the course of time the world became divided into regional states resulting in mutual strife. The British ruled India for about 200 years uptil 1947 A.D. The midnight to midnight reckoning under British rule, emanated originally from the Indian sunrise time. Modern calculations based on that midnight time often result in a error of one or two years in timing."

source: http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_patnaik.html

RK^2
 
rkumar said:
More I read about our history, more missing links I find. Through this thread I will make some efforts to unearth some of these missing links and invite members also to contribute to this thread. May be at times my logics might appear totally absurd, but still let me make sincere efforts. Basic assumptions of my hypothesis would invariably be that we human migrate either during wars or famines or during other natural calamities and to some extent for better opportunities. Wars lead to polarisation of populations and give rise to different ideologies. I would therefore assume that;

1. Major population shift must have taken place from India during Ramayan and Mahabharat wars. Lot is known what all went on during Lord Rama's time, but not much after Luv-Kush periods. Let me venture first on this part of our history. As we know, centre of power during Luv-Kush period shifted to present day Pakistan. The reasons for such shift could have been many. Usually people name their children after the names of Kings or great people. Going by this logic one would imagine that Rama, Luv and Kush must have been very common names during post Rama period and the areas where such names became common, must certainly be the part of their kingdom or other dependent kingdoms. With this logic I started my search and looked into biblical records. Following are my initial findings;

1. http://www.british-israel.ca/Elam.pdf

Going through the above link titled "Elam in Prophecy" I noticed that Rama (mentioned as Ramah and Kush (mentioned as Cush) were the names of people in Elam empire and even in present day Egypt. Then there are names like Amarphel, Banipal etc that are no different than present day common Jat names. There were towns like Ellasar, sounding very similar to Manesar, Amritsar and Parvatsar. My very strong feeling is that Balyan Gotra of Jat has to do something with Babylon. There is mention of places like Harahvati, which in my view are the predators to our present day Haryana. Lots of Jat history is hidden in the history of Elam Empire for sure. There is mention of a place Kundu also in Elam Empire. I think Kundu jats got their surname from this very place. There is very clear mention that Croats and Serbs migrated to Europe from Elam Empire. There is mention that Cush had a son called Nimrod who went against God. I am very inclined to draw from this Nimrod went against lord Rama who was the God of all his forefathers. Nimrod tried to consolidate all the growing families of post-flood mankind. It would be safe for me to assume that this flood was nothing other than the great Pralaya mentioned in Manu-smriti.

I think above should be food enough to trigger imaginations of members to initiate further debate on the subject.

Rajendra
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There is no start and end to Ramayana and Mahabharata until and unless archaeologists do concrete work to verify the facts.
 
rkumar said:
I came across a very interesting explanation as to why date change started at mid night;

"The present European calendar came into vogue around 7 A.D. India, since ancient times, has been following the lunar calendar. The Western calendar has undergone many variations and adjustments from time to time e.g., at one stage the first six months had 31 days each while the last six months were 30 days each.

Uptil the Mahabharat War the world had a single, unitary administration under Vedic sovereigns, which reckoned the day from sunrise to sunrise centering on India. Consequently, other regions of the world stuck to the Indian time schedule. Thus for instance, when the sun rose in India at around 5.30 am it used to be midnight hour in Britain. Therefore the Vedic administration in Britain calculated its date from midnight to midnight.

When in the course of time the world became divided into regional states resulting in mutual strife. The British ruled India for about 200 years uptil 1947 A.D. The midnight to midnight reckoning under British rule, emanated originally from the Indian sunrise time. Modern calculations based on that midnight time often result in a error of one or two years in timing."

source: http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_patnaik.html

RK^2
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Was it really so! If it is proved to be fact based statement then it would be wonderful addition to knowledge of pre-history.

The statement in the post under reference needs support of some sort of evidence that : ''Uptil the Mahabharat War the world had a single, unitary administration under Vedic sovereigns,..........'' and also add authenticity to it if some convincing date line of emergence of regional state all over the world is also found.
 
As we know, Indian land mass collided with Asian land mass only 50 million years ago, it broke from Gondwana continent along with Australia, Africa and South America etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondwana). India is called Jambbu Dweep also in our ancient books. Somewhere in this thread I spoke of human civilization on Indian landmass before it collided with Asian land mass. As expected, I was ridiculed. Darwin's theory of human evolution has tinted our thinking. Thank God I am neither a biologist nor a conventional historian. I kept looking for evidences which push back human civilization to the time when India was still an island. I came across this very interesting link which is based upon hard facts;

http://www.delusionresistance.org/creation/antedeluvian_finds.html

In my view we don't understand even the tip of human history. Whole issue needs to be looked from a holistic angle by keeping in mind all the hard and soft evidences. In my view human civilization histor goes back to 60-70 million years if not more. On this time scale, Mahabharat was like a last night event.

RK^2
 
rkumar said:
Uptil the Mahabharat War the world had a single, unitary administration under Vedic sovereigns, which reckoned the day from sunrise to sunrise centering on India. Consequently, other regions of the world stuck to the Indian time schedule. Thus for instance, when the sun rose in India at around 5.30 am it used to be midnight hour in Britain. Therefore the Vedic administration in Britain calculated its date from midnight to midnight.

source: http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_patnaik.html

RK^2
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Pure conjecture in that link. Hardly any evidence to support the theory that Britain (GMT) or the world revolved according to Vedic rules practiced in India.
 
swaich said:
Pure conjecture in that link. Hardly any evidence to support the theory that Britain (GMT) or the world revolved according to Vedic rules practiced in India.
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Might sound like a conjecture, however, there is some weight in the argument. As recently as 2000, Indian budget used be presented in our parliament at 5.00 PM. This was so because during British Raj, India budget used to be presented in London at 12 noon. We Indians continued stick British time of 12 noon for almost 60 years. If this can happen in modern times, I see no reason why reverse could not happen in olden days.

RK^2
 
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rkumar said:
Might sound like a conjecture, however, there is some weight in the argument. As recently as 2000, Indian budget used be presented in our parliament at 5.00 PM. This was so because during British Raj, India budget used to be presented in London at 12 noon. We Indians continued stick British time of 12 noon for almost 60 years. If this can happen in modern times, I see no reason why reverse could not happen in olden days.

RK^2
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There you have it. You have evidence for why it happened in modern time. Whats the evidence that the same happened in the Mahabharata period?
 
swaich said:
There you have it. You have evidence for why it happened in modern time. Whats the evidence that the same happened in the Mahabharata period?
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I don't have ready made hard answer. However, I tend to think along following lines;

vedic period people knew how the star positions looked like at various latitudes and longitudes. This is quite evident by the explanations given by Tilak his his polar region Aryan theory. This must have been possible only when people were travelling back and forth. Certain rituals were practiced by Rishis at sun rise and other times of the day. Positions of the stars as seen in India were the reference points for the rituals. In my best guess Rishis must be observing those practices world over with reference to the star positions in India.

RK^2
 
rkumar said:
I don't have ready made hard answer. However, I tend to think along following lines;

vedic period people knew how the star positions looked like at various latitudes and longitudes. This is quite evident by the explanations given by Tilak his his polar region Aryan theory. This must have been possible only when people were travelling back and forth. Certain rituals were practiced by Rishis at sun rise and other times of the day. Positions of the stars as seen in India were the reference points for the rituals. In my best guess Rishis must be observing those practices world over with reference to the star positions in India.

RK^2
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Quite apt answer !!
 
As mentioned many times on this thread, the surnames are a good indicator of migration history. I was listening to a commentary on Modi's Japan visit and noticed the name Peter Kohli ;

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I then looked for Kohli surname in Europe and came across Martin Kohli (http://www.eui.eu/DepartmentsAndCen...ofessors/Profiles/FormerProfessors/Kohli.aspx). So, Kohli surname is common between Indian Punjab and Europe.

RK^2
 
Did we come from South of India?

If we read history and epics like "Ramayana", we find that there was a continuous movement of people from north to south. Interestingly there is no sure known date of real existence of epics like "Ramayana" or "Mahabharata" as no solid archaeological artifacts are present in any of the museums and neither are any archaeological sites related with these epics. If we look into recent history, we still find people moving from north to south and mid India due to continuous inflow of tribes and frequent occurrence of wars.



Having said that, there is a lot of mythological and religious crap that tries to create a non verifiable connection.
 
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There has been strong belief that Aryans brought the horses in India and India never head them. Contrary to all this we find mention of horses in chariots during Mahabharat period and then Ashwamedh yagya even during Ramayan period. This latest discovery should be the proof enough that it was India where the horses originated;

http://www.thenewage.co.za/143964-1021-53-Horses_and_rhinos_originated_in_India_Researchers

Sooner or later we will find the proof of human civilization also on India when it was an island (Jamboo Dweepa).

RK^2
 
rkumar said:
There has been strong belief that Aryans brought the horses in India and India never head them. Contrary to all this we find mention of horses in chariots during Mahabharat period and then Ashwamedh yagya even during Ramayan period. This latest discovery should be the proof enough that it was India where the horses originated;

http://www.thenewage.co.za/143964-1021-53-Horses_and_rhinos_originated_in_India_Researchers

Sooner or later we will find the proof of human civilization also on India when it was an island (Jamboo Dweepa).

RK^2
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The latest researches conducted at the behest of UNESCO show that there was no race as named ARYANS. Rather they conclude that the word represents hatrogeneous group of people speaking one language at a point of time when they lived together somewhere in central Asia long time ago. They are believed to have migrated in various directions from time to time due to increase in population of men and animals reared by them and some other reasons.

If we agree to their having entered India, the moot question and the biggest one arises when did they come for the first time in this country. Whether it was pre-Mahabharata era/pre-Ramayana era or none of the two ?
 
rkumar said:
There has been strong belief that Aryans brought the horses in India and India never head them. Contrary to all this we find mention of horses in chariots during Mahabharat period and then Ashwamedh yagya even during Ramayan period. This latest discovery should be the proof enough that it was India where the horses originated;

http://www.thenewage.co.za/143964-1021-53-Horses_and_rhinos_originated_in_India_Researchers

Sooner or later we will find the proof of human civilization also on India when it was an island (Jamboo Dweepa).

RK^2
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Friend, the study is good attempt to trace the origin of horse in India but has to confirm the findings as its conclusions are tentative as suggested by the word 'probably.' Hope further researchers would carry this task further in future.


NEW DELHI: Horses and rhinos probably originated on the Indian subcontinent, some 54.5 million years ago according to a new study of fossils found in Gujarat. At that time, the subcontinent was an island inching its way towards a collision with the Eurasian landmass. [red colour used by me to highlight the probability]

The study was carried out by a team of John Hopkins researchers and colleagues, and published on November 20 in the online journal Nature Communications.
 
Horse in Sanskrit is known by name "Ashva". "Ashva" means "horse" and "grain" both. Sacrifices which call for "Ashva" were assumed to be for horses but the correct Vedic interpretation is that of "grain". The pre-Classical form of Sanskrit is known as Vedic Sanskrit, with the language of the Rigveda being the oldest and most archaic stage preserved, its oldest core dating back to as early as early 2nd millennium BCE. {See Nedi︠a︡lkov, V. P. (2007). Reciprocal constructions. Amsterdam Philadelphia: J. Benjamins Pub. Co. p. 710; MacDonell, Arthur (2004). A History Of Sanskrit Literature (in Norwegian). Kessinger Publishing. ISBN 9781417906192.}
 
The wikipedia shown above says that the langauges of "Elam" were related with Dravidian languages.

We must not consider all the facts stated in wikipedia or online material as factual, lot of the times the matter written on such media are manipulated and changed due to wrong interests and parties with wrong interest involved. It is also possible to change the subject or the written matter in an online text remotely and without the knowledge of owner of the content.

The online content can be easily changed and manipulated to feed wrong information to people and societies.

The underlying fact remains that there are similar names and facts which connect migration of people in ancient times, when there were no nationalistic boundaries as shown by governments and related agencies of the world today.
 
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