जिन्होंने हिंदू धर्म को त्यागा...

[vdhillon]

The Sangh has a social and cultural agenda, and this certainly cannot be denied its space in public discussion in any democracy. The fact that the opposition is not even willing to discuss religious conversions shows that it is afraid of losing its vote banks. It would like to see conversion as communalism when the traffic is towards Hinduism, and would like to ignore it when conversion is away from Hinduism.

~ Copied (I did not write the above, I am borrowing it from here http://www.firstpost.com/politics/dear-rss-focus-on-winning-hearts-and-minds-not-capturing-modi-sarkar-1851859.html)



BTW, Sangh also promoted farmers' rights, those who respect TIKAIT yet abuse Sangh, think of Sangh's Bhartiya Kisan Union.

Farmer's rights can be championed while fighting the reverse discrimination against Hindusand while being enlightened about the real and serious threat that radical Islam poses to the whole humanity , including to muslims themselves. Even the agnostics and atheists born from Hinduism will suffer, they must not remain apathetic to this threat, they can ignore it but can not stay immue from the negative impact they will suffer.

Cancer destroys the very organism it needs to survive/feed on, radicalization of religion sows the seeds of self-destruction. Be tolerant but not ignorant and apathetic, do speak against what is wrong e.g. farmers rights, radicalization of religion, reverse discrimination of Hindus in the name of minority appeasement and pseudo-secularism (majority of the farmers are Hindus, who suffer and pay the price for minority appeasement, imagine all the Muslim hajj subsidy could be abolished so that farmers do not pay land tax to fund such junket, how come a sick-ullu-re govt of a poor developing country pays for religious pilgrimage of only one particular religion by taxing Hindu farmers with land tax that benefits Arabic economy at the cost of Indian economy), religious terror (96% of which emanates from Islam - 10 year study by center of terrorism that cataloged all the terror attacks worldwide), etc.

NO NEED FOR US TO DEVELOP TUNNEL VISION and just harp on singular issue of farmers rights alone in an isolated manner (which I admit is a valid cause) while ignoring all other threats or else our future generations will pay the price, we need to look at all the marginalized rights issues and threats in holistic manner.

~ my comment

 

[upendersingh]

Sharad Yadav speaking about Unionist's .....
'जातिव्यवस्था ने जाटों को किया जलील , इसलिए जाटों ने किया हिन्दू धर्म से पलायन '
"यह ज़लालत अब भी जारी हैं ,
अब समझने की हमारी बारी हैं "

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यह डिबेट धर्म परिवर्तन (घर वापसी) को ले कर थी , इसमे तीनों मेहमानों मे से दो यादव व एक ब्राह्मण था | जब शरद यादव जी ने असल मुद्दे की बात शुरू की तो एंकर जो खुद एक ब्राह्मण हैं ने और सीताराम यचूरी ने बात ही घूमा दी , जिस पर शरद जी ने कहा की आप टप्पा दे रहे हैं .... यह जाति चाहे वामपंथी हो चाहे कुछ और अंदर खाते एक हैं इसलिए असल बात लोगो के सामने नहीं आने देना चाहते | शरद यादव जी को यह बात कहने के लिए चाहे 2 मिनट का समय मिला हो परंतु वह अपना संदेश ,अपना काम कर गए

शरद यादव जैसे शख्स की बातों को ज्यादा गंभीरता से नहीं लिया जाना चाहिए। वो तो इस चर्चा में छोटू राम को भी जट्ट बता रहा है और ऐसे नाम ले रहा है, जैसे कि मुस्लिम बनने वालों में छोटू राम भी हो। फिर यह तो सभी को मालूम है कि सिख और मुस्लिम जाट पहले हिंदू ही थे, लेकिन वे जाति व्यवस्था से परेशान होकर मुस्लिम या सिख बने, इस बात में कोई दम नज़र नहीं आता और न ही शरद यादव ने ऐसा कुछ कहा। उसने तो यह कहा कि हिंदू धर्म को छोड़ने वाले सबसे बड़ी संख्या में जट्ट थे, जो कि बहस का विषय हो सकता है, क्योंकि न तो पाकिस्तान के मुस्लिमों में और न ही सिखों में जाटों की बहुलता है। भारत के पंजाब की आबादी लगभग पौने तीन करोड़ है। इसमें से 40 % हिंदू हैं, यानी लगभग 1.08 करोड़। बाकी लगभग 1.70 करोड़ सिख हैं। दुनिया भर में सिखों की आबादी लगभग 3 करोड़ मानी जाती है, जिनमें से बमुश्किल 60 लाख जाट हैं, यानि लगभग 20 %। आंकड़े तो पंजाब में महज 12-15 % जाट बताते हैं, मैं तो फिर भी बढ़ा-चढ़ाकर लिख रहा हूं। पंजाब में जाटों की संख्या हर्गिज हरियाणा से ज्यादा नहीं है, इसलिए जिन कुछ आंकड़ों में सिख जाटों की संख्या 1 करोड़ के आसपास बताई जाती है, उसमें कोई दम नजर नहीं आता। तब भी वे कुल सिखों का लगभग 33 % ही बैठते हैं। इस प्रकार सिखों में भी 67-80 % गैर-जाट हैं। तो ऐसे में शरद यादव का यह कहना कि जट्ट ही बड़ी संख्या में मुस्लिम या सिख बने, कोई ज्यादा वजनदार बात नहीं है। पूरा कश्मीर पंडितों का था, वे किस जाति व्यवस्था से परेशान होकर मुस्लिम बने???
यदि किसी पेड़ की छाया में कई लोग बैठे हैं और उनमें से कोई यह दावा करने लगे कि तुम इस पेड़ की छाया में बैठने लायक नहीं हो तो फिर उस शख्स को सबक सिखाना चाहिए, न कि डरपोक बुजदिलों की तरह उस पेड़ को गाली देते हुए भाग खड़ा होना चाहिए। ब्राह्मणों को हर्गिज हिंदू धर्म का मालिक नहीं कहा जा सकता, क्योंकि न तो किसी को भी यह मालूम है कि हिंदू धर्म की स्थापना किसने की थी और न ही कोई भी हिंदू महानायक ब्राह्मण है, उलटे सभी हिंदू एक ब्राह्मण रावण का पुतला हर साल जलाते हैं। यदि रावण जाट होता तो उसका पुतला जलाया जाना कैसा लगता??? तो फिर ब्राह्मणों को कैसा लगता होगा?
दरअसल ब्राह्मणों की कोई गलती ही नहीं है। वे तो मंदिरों की देखभाल करने वाले, पूजा-पाठ, मंत्रोच्चारण करने वाले लोग हैं। असली दोष लोगों को दिग्भ्रमित करने वालों का है। मुस्लिम या सिख बनकर जाटों ने क्या हासिल किया? मुस्लिम जाट मानसिक रूप से एक अरबी के गुलाम बन गए और 1971 में आत्मसमर्पण कर बैठे, जबकि सिख जाट बेदी, सोढी, भल्ला और त्रेहन गौत्र के खत्री पंजाबी सिख गुरुओं के गुलाम बन गए और इस मानसिक तनाव में नशेड़ी बनकर बर्बाद हो गए। दूसरी तरफ हिंदू जाट कहीं विश्व चैंपियन पहलवान बने तो कहीं दुनिया के शीर्ष रियल स्टेट कारोबारी।
यदि शरद यादव जैसे लोग वास्तव में हिंदू धर्म को तोड़ना चाहते हैं तो वे ब्राह्मणों को रावण का पुतला जलाए जाने का हवाला देकर भड़काएं और वैश्यों को यह कहकर भड़काएं कि हिंदू अपराधी उनका ही क्यों कत्लेआम करते हैं? पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश में आए दिन कोई न कोई वैश्य या तो क़त्ल किया जाता है, या उसका फिरौती के लिए अपहरण किया जाता हैं या रकम ऐंठने के लिए उसे धमकाया जाता है। पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश के शीर्ष 7 मोस्ट वांटेड में 6 जाट, जबकि 1 राजपूत हैं। एक अमित मलिक उर्फ भूरा तो अभी परसों ही पुलिस हिरासत से फरार हुआ है और वह पुलिस की 2 एके 47 और 1 एसएलआर लेकर भागा है और उस पर 5 लाख का इनाम घोषित हुआ है।
आखिरी बात यह कि कौन किसी को रोक रहा है हिंदू धर्म छोड़कर मुस्लिम या सिख बनने से, लेकिन नाम तो बदलोगे न? या नाम होगा सुरेश और धर्म होगा मुस्लिम?

 

[mpaweria]

This man himself is जलील aadmi(Sarad Yadav).Devilal made him from bhikari ( begger )to textile minister. Same is the case of Mulayam ( charan singh made him.)
JAT are actually Bhola JAT and whenever anybody ask something from them, they gave 100%% but at return always received BIG zero.
Latest is the case of UP election after giving 100% support to modi not getting any justice on Muzzaffarnagar episode.
Whenever Dayanand saraswati serching follower, maximum of JAT adopted Arya Samaj.
Same in the case of Gurugovind singh. Maximum of their follower who accepted sikh were jat.

Jats were always fooled by governing bodies. Right now also maximum of casualty happening at border belongs to JAT community.
If JAT were not fought along with Gurugovind singh against mughals, our country become 100% islamic country at the time of auranjeb( atleast in north india).
Other community people are Ahsaan faramosh and don't know to give respect for sacrifice (Balidan), because of this we are decreasing in numbers and small number of people can easily rule the whole country.

We are proud of being JAT because whenever country required support. We always ahead and sacrifice ourselves on the name of country

Sharad Yadav speaking about Unionist's .....
'जातिव्यवस्था ने जाटों को किया जलील , इसलिए जाटों ने किया हिन्दू धर्म से पलायन '
"यह ज़लालत अब भी जारी हैं ,
अब समझने की हमारी बारी हैं "
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यह डिबेट धर्म परिवर्तन (घर वापसी) को ले कर थी , इसमे तीनों मेहमानों मे से दो यादव व एक ब्राह्मण था | जब शरद यादव जी ने असल मुद्दे की बात शुरू की तो एंकर जो खुद एक ब्राह्मण हैं ने और सीताराम यचूरी ने बात ही घूमा दी , जिस पर शरद जी ने कहा की आप टप्पा दे रहे हैं .... यह जाति चाहे वामपंथी हो चाहे कुछ और अंदर खाते एक हैं इसलिए असल बात लोगो के सामने नहीं आने देना चाहते | शरद यादव जी को यह बात कहने के लिए चाहे 2 मिनट का समय मिला हो परंतु वह अपना संदेश ,अपना काम कर गए

 

[vdhillon]

Thank you bhai, specially for the useful stats. This is a great way of presenting the logic, no personal opinion, only the data, facts speak for themselves. Thanks for enlightening us

शरद यादव जैसे शख्स की बातों को ज्यादा गंभीरता से नहीं लिया जाना चाहिए। वो तो इस चर्चा में छोटू राम को भी जट्ट बता रहा है और ऐसे नाम ले रहा है, जैसे कि मुस्लिम बनने वालों में छोटू राम भी हो। फिर यह तो सभी को मालूम है कि सिख और मुस्लिम जाट पहले हिंदू ही थे, लेकिन वे जाति व्यवस्था से परेशान होकर मुस्लिम या सिख बने, इस बात में कोई दम नज़र नहीं आता और न ही शरद यादव ने ऐसा कुछ कहा। उसने तो यह कहा कि हिंदू धर्म को छोड़ने वाले सबसे बड़ी संख्या में जट्ट थे, जो कि बहस का विषय हो सकता है, क्योंकि न तो पाकिस्तान के मुस्लिमों में और न ही सिखों में जाटों की बहुलता है। भारत के पंजाब की आबादी लगभग पौने तीन करोड़ है। इसमें से 40 % हिंदू हैं, यानी लगभग 1.08 करोड़। बाकी लगभग 1.70 करोड़ सिख हैं। दुनिया भर में सिखों की आबादी लगभग 3 करोड़ मानी जाती है, जिनमें से बमुश्किल 60 लाख जाट हैं, यानि लगभग 20 %। आंकड़े तो पंजाब में महज 12-15 % जाट बताते हैं, मैं तो फिर भी बढ़ा-चढ़ाकर लिख रहा हूं। पंजाब में जाटों की संख्या हर्गिज हरियाणा से ज्यादा नहीं है, इसलिए जिन कुछ आंकड़ों में सिख जाटों की संख्या 1 करोड़ के आसपास बताई जाती है, उसमें कोई दम नजर नहीं आता। तब भी वे कुल सिखों का लगभग 33 % ही बैठते हैं। इस प्रकार सिखों में भी 67-80 % गैर-जाट हैं। तो ऐसे में शरद यादव का यह कहना कि जट्ट ही बड़ी संख्या में मुस्लिम या सिख बने, कोई ज्यादा वजनदार बात नहीं है। पूरा कश्मीर पंडितों का था, वे किस जाति व्यवस्था से परेशान होकर मुस्लिम बने???
यदि किसी पेड़ की छाया में कई लोग बैठे हैं और उनमें से कोई यह दावा करने लगे कि तुम इस पेड़ की छाया में बैठने लायक नहीं हो तो फिर उस शख्स को सबक सिखाना चाहिए, न कि डरपोक बुजदिलों की तरह उस पेड़ को गाली देते हुए भाग खड़ा होना चाहिए। ब्राह्मणों को हर्गिज हिंदू धर्म का मालिक नहीं कहा जा सकता, क्योंकि न तो किसी को भी यह मालूम है कि हिंदू धर्म की स्थापना किसने की थी और न ही कोई भी हिंदू महानायक ब्राह्मण है, उलटे सभी हिंदू एक ब्राह्मण रावण का पुतला हर साल जलाते हैं। यदि रावण जाट होता तो उसका पुतला जलाया जाना कैसा लगता??? तो फिर ब्राह्मणों को कैसा लगता होगा?
दरअसल ब्राह्मणों की कोई गलती ही नहीं है। वे तो मंदिरों की देखभाल करने वाले, पूजा-पाठ, मंत्रोच्चारण करने वाले लोग हैं। असली दोष लोगों को दिग्भ्रमित करने वालों का है। मुस्लिम या सिख बनकर जाटों ने क्या हासिल किया? मुस्लिम जाट मानसिक रूप से एक अरबी के गुलाम बन गए और 1971 में आत्मसमर्पण कर बैठे, जबकि सिख जाट बेदी, सोढी, भल्ला और त्रेहन गौत्र के खत्री पंजाबी सिख गुरुओं के गुलाम बन गए और इस मानसिक तनाव में नशेड़ी बनकर बर्बाद हो गए। दूसरी तरफ हिंदू जाट कहीं विश्व चैंपियन पहलवान बने तो कहीं दुनिया के शीर्ष रियल स्टेट कारोबारी।
यदि शरद यादव जैसे लोग वास्तव में हिंदू धर्म को तोड़ना चाहते हैं तो वे ब्राह्मणों को रावण का पुतला जलाए जाने का हवाला देकर भड़काएं और वैश्यों को यह कहकर भड़काएं कि हिंदू अपराधी उनका ही क्यों कत्लेआम करते हैं? पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश में आए दिन कोई न कोई वैश्य या तो क़त्ल किया जाता है, या उसका फिरौती के लिए अपहरण किया जाता हैं या रकम ऐंठने के लिए उसे धमकाया जाता है। पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश के शीर्ष 7 मोस्ट वांटेड में 6 जाट, जबकि 1 राजपूत हैं। एक अमित मलिक उर्फ भूरा तो अभी परसों ही पुलिस हिरासत से फरार हुआ है और वह पुलिस की 2 एके 47 और 1 एसएलआर लेकर भागा है और उस पर 5 लाख का इनाम घोषित हुआ है।
आखिरी बात यह कि कौन किसी को रोक रहा है हिंदू धर्म छोड़कर मुस्लिम या सिख बनने से, लेकिन नाम तो बदलोगे न? या नाम होगा सुरेश और धर्म होगा मुस्लिम?

 

[abhikrana]

I am amazed when Islamic terrorism is such a dangerous reality both within our country and at our borders, people in this country especially Hindus are still lost in this endless tu-tu mein-mein debate of they-versus-us among the various castes.

This reminds one of the story of two cats and a monkey where the cats are fighting over a roti as to how to partition it equally between themselves. A monkey drops by and volunteers to help them by dividing the roti into two exact equal halves. He breaks the roti into two and says the two pieces are not equal. He eats into the bigger piece and says that the other piece is now bigger. He now eats into the bigger piece. He keeps repeating this till the time he has eaten both the pieces of the roti completely.

The need of the hour is unity and a strategic vision for the future. Let's not overlook the bigger picture which presents itself in terms of the bigger challenges that face us in the name of Islamic terror. If we still ignore to see the ISIS trailer, we are doing it at the risk of endangering our (Hindu) future generations.

For all the Hindu critics of Hindu religion, all I can say is that Hinduism would be a better religion if they would leave it because instead of reforming it further, all that they are doing it from birth to death is cursing it. They are apologetic at being Hindus.

Green pastures are waiting for them on the other side once they leave Hindu religion. They will enjoy all the freedom in the religion of their choice and they can curse that religion as much as they like provided ONLY if they are not beheaded by then

From what I see across the Iraq, Iran, and other like countries - stoning to death, beheading, marriage between brothers/sisters, I further feel proud to be a Hindu.

 

[swaich]

शरद यादव जैसे शख्स की बातों को ज्यादा गंभीरता से नहीं लिया जाना चाहिए। वो तो इस चर्चा में छोटू राम को भी जट्ट बता रहा है और ऐसे नाम ले रहा है, जैसे कि मुस्लिम बनने वालों में छोटू राम भी हो। फिर यह तो सभी को मालूम है कि सिख और मुस्लिम जाट पहले हिंदू ही थे, लेकिन वे जाति व्यवस्था से परेशान होकर मुस्लिम या सिख बने, इस बात में कोई दम नज़र नहीं आता और न ही शरद यादव ने ऐसा कुछ कहा। उसने तो यह कहा कि हिंदू धर्म को छोड़ने वाले सबसे बड़ी संख्या में जट्ट थे, जो कि बहस का विषय हो सकता है, क्योंकि न तो पाकिस्तान के मुस्लिमों में और न ही सिखों में जाटों की बहुलता है। भारत के पंजाब की आबादी लगभग पौने तीन करोड़ है। इसमें से 40 % हिंदू हैं, यानी लगभग 1.08 करोड़। बाकी लगभग 1.70 करोड़ सिख हैं। दुनिया भर में सिखों की आबादी लगभग 3 करोड़ मानी जाती है, जिनमें से बमुश्किल 60 लाख जाट हैं, यानि लगभग 20 %। आंकड़े तो पंजाब में महज 12-15 % जाट बताते हैं, मैं तो फिर भी बढ़ा-चढ़ाकर लिख रहा हूं। पंजाब में जाटों की संख्या हर्गिज हरियाणा से ज्यादा नहीं है, इसलिए जिन कुछ आंकड़ों में सिख जाटों की संख्या 1 करोड़ के आसपास बताई जाती है, उसमें कोई दम नजर नहीं आता। तब भी वे कुल सिखों का लगभग 33 % ही बैठते हैं। इस प्रकार सिखों में भी 67-80 % गैर-जाट हैं। तो ऐसे में शरद यादव का यह कहना कि जट्ट ही बड़ी संख्या में मुस्लिम या सिख बने, कोई ज्यादा वजनदार बात नहीं है। पूरा कश्मीर पंडितों का था, वे किस जाति व्यवस्था से परेशान होकर मुस्लिम बने???
यदि किसी पेड़ की छाया में कई लोग बैठे हैं और उनमें से कोई यह दावा करने लगे कि तुम इस पेड़ की छाया में बैठने लायक नहीं हो तो फिर उस शख्स को सबक सिखाना चाहिए, न कि डरपोक बुजदिलों की तरह उस पेड़ को गाली देते हुए भाग खड़ा होना चाहिए। ब्राह्मणों को हर्गिज हिंदू धर्म का मालिक नहीं कहा जा सकता, क्योंकि न तो किसी को भी यह मालूम है कि हिंदू धर्म की स्थापना किसने की थी और न ही कोई भी हिंदू महानायक ब्राह्मण है, उलटे सभी हिंदू एक ब्राह्मण रावण का पुतला हर साल जलाते हैं। यदि रावण जाट होता तो उसका पुतला जलाया जाना कैसा लगता??? तो फिर ब्राह्मणों को कैसा लगता होगा?
दरअसल ब्राह्मणों की कोई गलती ही नहीं है। वे तो मंदिरों की देखभाल करने वाले, पूजा-पाठ, मंत्रोच्चारण करने वाले लोग हैं। असली दोष लोगों को दिग्भ्रमित करने वालों का है। मुस्लिम या सिख बनकर जाटों ने क्या हासिल किया? मुस्लिम जाट मानसिक रूप से एक अरबी के गुलाम बन गए और 1971 में आत्मसमर्पण कर बैठे, जबकि सिख जाट बेदी, सोढी, भल्ला और त्रेहन गौत्र के खत्री पंजाबी सिख गुरुओं के गुलाम बन गए और इस मानसिक तनाव में नशेड़ी बनकर बर्बाद हो गए। दूसरी तरफ हिंदू जाट कहीं विश्व चैंपियन पहलवान बने तो कहीं दुनिया के शीर्ष रियल स्टेट कारोबारी।
यदि शरद यादव जैसे लोग वास्तव में हिंदू धर्म को तोड़ना चाहते हैं तो वे ब्राह्मणों को रावण का पुतला जलाए जाने का हवाला देकर भड़काएं और वैश्यों को यह कहकर भड़काएं कि हिंदू अपराधी उनका ही क्यों कत्लेआम करते हैं? पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश में आए दिन कोई न कोई वैश्य या तो क़त्ल किया जाता है, या उसका फिरौती के लिए अपहरण किया जाता हैं या रकम ऐंठने के लिए उसे धमकाया जाता है। पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश के शीर्ष 7 मोस्ट वांटेड में 6 जाट, जबकि 1 राजपूत हैं। एक अमित मलिक उर्फ भूरा तो अभी परसों ही पुलिस हिरासत से फरार हुआ है और वह पुलिस की 2 एके 47 और 1 एसएलआर लेकर भागा है और उस पर 5 लाख का इनाम घोषित हुआ है।
आखिरी बात यह कि कौन किसी को रोक रहा है हिंदू धर्म छोड़कर मुस्लिम या सिख बनने से, लेकिन नाम तो बदलोगे न? या नाम होगा सुरेश और धर्म होगा मुस्लिम?

Decent use of data but not so correct conclusions.

According to you Brahmins were poor, innocent mantra chanting simpletons. Well, these simpletons restricted access to temples, education and ran the society via the rulers. They proclaimed they had the god given right to be closer to God and the uneducated communities followed.

And previously too we had a debate on how just because the Sikh gurus were Khatris did not mean the other communities became subservient to them or were ranked lower than them. If you still do not understand it, it means you do not understand the ground realities of the Sikh society.

Hinduism, purely in terms of an organized religion has great concepts and has many qualities. But egalitarianism is not one of them.

 

[swaich]

 

[upendersingh]

Decent use of data but not so correct conclusions.

According to you Brahmins were poor, innocent mantra chanting simpletons. Well, these simpletons restricted access to temples, education and ran the society via the rulers. They proclaimed they had the god given right to be closer to God and the uneducated communities followed.

And previously too we had a debate on how just because the Sikh gurus were Khatris did not mean the other communities became subservient to them or were ranked lower than them. If you still do not understand it, it means you do not understand the ground realities of the Sikh society.

Hinduism, purely in terms of an organized religion has great concepts and has many qualities. But egalitarianism is not one of them.

Then why don't you make me understand the ground realities? Mostly Jat Sikhs think that someone of our 10 gurus must be a Jatt (mostly take Guru Gobind Singh to be a Jatt). If they all are told that no one was then there will be a huge turmoil in Sikhism. If you don't believe then take an honest survey yourself. Ask at least 10 young Sikhs about the caste of their Sikh gurus (I am sure you will find that mostly of them think that there must be some Jatt in 10 gurus, but you will tell me here that all know that no guru was a Jatt. So keep the result to yourself only). I have experienced it in many debates over other sites.

 

[upendersingh]

Why are you living in 18th century India? Not only you, but all of them who oppose Hinduism seem to live in centuries old India when there were many evils present in Hinduism. Now those 4 varnas are gone and modern 4 varnas are Forward caste, OBC, SC and ST. We Jats are in forward castes, but to avail reservation we got into OBC on which there is a case going on in Supreme Court. So come out of 18th century and live in present, new year 2015 is just to come. I think this write up will be useful for you in this concern :
Caste system in modern India

The leaders of independent India decided that India will be democratic, socialist and secular country. According to this policy there is a separation between religion and state. Practicing untouchability or discriminating a person based on his caste is legally forbidden. Along with this law the government allows positive discrimination of the depressed classes of India.
​

The Indians have also become more flexible in their caste system customs. In general the urban people in India are less strict about the caste system than the rural. In cities one can see different caste people mingling with each other, while in some rural areas there is still discrimination based on castes and sometimes also on untouchability. Sometimes in villages or in the cities there are violent clashes which, are connected to caste tensions. Sometimes the high castes strike the lower castes who dare to uplift their status. Sometimes the lower caste get back on the higher castes.
​

In modern India the term caste is used for Jati and also for Varna. The term, caste was used by the British who ruled India until 1947. The British who wanted to rule India efficiently made lists of Indian communities. They used two terms to describe Indian communities. Castes and Tribes. The term caste was used for Jatis and also for Varnas. Tribes were those communities who lived deep in jungles, forests and mountains far away from the main population and also communities who were hard to be defined as castes for example communities who made a living from stealing or robbery. These lists, which the British made, were used later on by the Indian governments to create lists of communities who were entitled for positive discrimination.
​

The castes, which were the elite of the Indian society, were classified as high castes. The other communities were classified as lower castes or lower classes. The lower classes were listed in three categories. The first category is called Scheduled Castes. This category includes in it communities who were untouchables. In modern India, untouchability exists at a very low extent. The untouchables call themselves Dalit, meaning depressed. Until the late 1980s they were called Harijan, meaning children of God. This title was given to them by Mahatma Gandhi who wanted the society to accept untouchables within them.
​

The second category is Scheduled Tribes. This category includes in it those communities who did not accept the caste system and preferred to reside deep in the jungles, forests and mountains of India, away from the main population. The Scheduled Tribes are also called Adivasi, meaning aboriginals.
​

The third category is called sometimes Other Backward Classes or Backward Classes. This category includes in it castes who belong to Sudra Varna and also former untouchables who converted from Hinduism to other religions. This category also includes in it nomads and tribes who made a living from criminal acts.
​

According to the central government policy these three categories are entitled for positive discrimination. Sometimes these three categories are defined together as Backward Classes. 15% of India's population are Scheduled Castes. According to central government policy 15% of the government jobs and 15% of the students admitted to universities must be from Scheduled Castes. For the Scheduled Tribes about 7.5% places are reserved which is their proportion in Indian population. The Other Backwards Classes are about 50% of India's population, but only 27% of government jobs are reserved for them.
​

Along with the central government, the state governments of India also follow a positive discrimination policy. Different states have different figures of communities entitled for positive discrimination based on the population of each state. Different state governments have different lists of communities entitled for positive discrimination. Sometimes a specific community is entitled for rights in a particular state but not in another state of India.
​

In modern India new tensions were created because of these positive discrimination policies. The high caste communities feel discriminated by the government policy to reserve positions for the Backward Classes. In many cases a large number of high caste members compete for a few places reserved for them. While the Backward Classes members do not have to compete at all because of the large number of reserved places for them compared to the candidates. Sometimes in order to fill the quota, candidates from the lower classes are accepted even though they are not suitable. Sometimes some reserved positions remain unmanned because there were few candidates from the lower classes causing more tension between the castes. Between the lower castes there are also tensions over reservation.
​

In the order of priority for a reserved place of the Backward Classes, candidate from the Scheduled castes is preferred over a candidate from the Scheduled Tribes who is preferred over a candidate from the other Backward Classes. As stated earlier Other Backward Classes are about 50% of India's population but only 27% of the Other Backward Classes are entitled for positive discrimination according to central government policy. Some Other Backward Classes communities are organizing politically to be recognized as Backward Classes entitled for positive discrimination.
​

The Scheduled Tribes who are seen as the aborigins of India got ownership and certain rights over Indian land. Many communities in India claim also to be aborigins of India and they are claiming the same rights as the Scheduled Tribes.
​

The caste identity has become a subject of political, social and legal interpretation. Communities who get listed as entitled for positive discrimination do not get out of this list even if their social and political conditions get better. In many cases the legal system is involved to decide if a certain person is entitled for positive discrimination.
​

 

[vdhillon]

Sikhsim is offshot of Hinduism in many ways. Islam, which along with Christianity and Judaism is Abrahmic religion, is an alien Arab import to India. Sikhism is DHARMIC religion, just as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism are. In fact Sikhism came into being as a counter to Islam, to reconvert people from Islam to bring them back to DHARMIC fold, and later Guru Gobind Singh ji even recruited eldest son from reconverted ones and all Hindu families to serve as KHALSA to defend the HINDU dharma. Hindu aur Sikh Jat eek doosare ko bina soche eek dum se roti beti ka rishta rkahtey hain, suna hai kabhi hindu jat ne mooley jat ko beti di ho marji se?

Jats who converted to Islam under the influence of Sufism would be extremely miniscule to even be counted as an example, most conversions happened under the sword: convert or be killed once your women are raped. To save face they say they were given a choice (other choice was to be killed and raped), and the person usually officiating the ceremony could well have been a sufi or the after conversion they may have found following Suifism less painful under forced conversion, hence the face-saving lies they told themselves and their future generation ki hum ne darr kar nahi ...sufiyon se conversion kra liya tha. Does anyone ever admit they were so darpok to be converted? Kuch aise bhi jat the jo fought till last breath under the khaps. Jin mein nahi tha dum, ban gye fatak se mulle. Ab kehte phir te hain ki marji se bane the. Jo cheez un ke poorvajon pe jabardasti thopi gyi thi, now that pressure is gone, it is an opportunity for them to throw away that curse of forced religion and take the more civilised option of ghar-waapasi.

Neither do I fully agree with Sharad Yadav but I think you may be a little hasty in passing judgements on our Jat ancestors who veered away from Hinduism. What do we know of the hardships or daily lives they lived to say they were scared? Islam also spread via Sufism in the North as it appealed to the culture of saints/babas this region had. If they could convert of their own will to Sikhism, they could very well do the same and convert to Islam.

 

[vdhillon]

Jo log apne dharam ko hi gaali dete rehte hain may they get to live in Pakistan or under Taliban, Al Qayeda and ISIS, just to get the perspective

I am amazed when Islamic terrorism is such a dangerous reality both within our country and at our borders, people in this country especially Hindus are still lost in this endless tu-tu mein-mein debate of they-versus-us among the various castes.

This reminds one of the story of two cats and a monkey where the cats are fighting over a roti as to how to partition it equally between themselves. A monkey drops by and volunteers to help them by dividing the roti into two exact equal halves. He breaks the roti into two and says the two pieces are not equal. He eats into the bigger piece and says that the other piece is now bigger. He now eats into the bigger piece. He keeps repeating this till the time he has eaten both the pieces of the roti completely.

The need of the hour is unity and a strategic vision for the future. Let's not overlook the bigger picture which presents itself in terms of the bigger challenges that face us in the name of Islamic terror. If we still ignore to see the ISIS trailer, we are doing it at the risk of endangering our (Hindu) future generations.

For all the Hindu critics of Hindu religion, all I can say is that Hinduism would be a better religion if they would leave it because instead of reforming it further, all that they are doing it from birth to death is cursing it. They are apologetic at being Hindus.

Green pastures are waiting for them on the other side once they leave Hindu religion. They will enjoy all the freedom in the religion of their choice and they can curse that religion as much as they like provided ONLY if they are not beheaded by then

From what I see across the Iraq, Iran, and other like countries - stoning to death, beheading, marriage between brothers/sisters, I further feel proud to be a Hindu.

 

[vdhillon]

I usually enjoy your comments, sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't but there is always something useful in your comments bhai.

Good point. Not just Hinduism, all religions are non-egalitarian, they profess (some verses) but they also have institutionalized discrimination (several times more verses on this).

Hinduism, purely in terms of an organized religion has great concepts and has many qualities. But egalitarianism is not one of them.

 

[swaich]

Then why don't you make me understand the ground realities? Mostly Jat Sikhs think that someone of our 10 gurus must be a Jatt (mostly take Guru Gobind Singh to be a Jatt). If they all are told that no one was then there will be a huge turmoil in Sikhism. If you don't believe then take an honest survey yourself. Ask at least 10 young Sikhs about the caste of their Sikh gurus (I am sure you will find that mostly of them think that there must be some Jatt in 10 gurus, but you will tell me here that all know that no guru was a Jatt. So keep the result to yourself only). I have experienced it in many debates over other sites.

I have asked 100s, face to face and virtually. I am yet to meet a single one who says Sikh Guru were Jatts. That debate is non-existent. Depending on their age and knowledge, they are either aware of caste of the Gurus or not but no one actually said they were Jatts. If you are talking to NRI Sikhs who are mainly Jatt Sikh, they might say so.

Talk to Sikhs - Jatts or therwise and you will understand if the supremacy of the Khatris is really even a talking point. Its not.

 

[swaich]

I usually enjoy your comments, sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't but there is always something useful in your comments bhai.

Good point. Not just Hinduism, all religions are NOT egalitarian, they profess (some verses) but they also have institutionalized discrimination (several times more verses on this).

I will disgaree. And I am talking about the scriptures here and not how it was interpreted or operationalised by the people. No other religion sanctions the supremacy of particular community over others in its holy books. In fact that was how Islam, Christianity and Sikhism grew in India. Their teachings appealed to the lower castes as there was no heiarchy. Of course it turned out differently at least in Islamic and Sikh society where old-caste or tribal bonds held strong.

 

[swaich]

Sikhsim is offshot of Hinduism in many ways. Islam, which along with Christianity and Judaism is Abrahmic religion, is an alien Arab import to India. Sikhism is DHARMIC religion, just as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism are. In fact Sikhism came into being as a counter to Islam, to reconvert people from Islam to bring them back to DHARMIC fold, and later Guru Gobind Singh ji even recruited eldest son from reconverted ones and all Hindu families to serve as KHALSA to defend the HINDU dharma. Hindu aur Sikh Jat eek doosare ko bina soche eek dum se roti beti ka rishta rkahtey hain, suna hai kabhi hindu jat ne mooley jat ko beti di ho marji se?

Jats who converted to Islam under the influence of Sufism would be extremely miniscule to even be counted as an example, most conversions happened under the sword: convert or be killed once your women are raped. To save face they say they were given a choice (other choice was to be killed and raped), and the person usually officiating the ceremony could well have been a sufi or the after conversion they may have found following Suifism less painful under forced conversion, hence the face-saving lies they told themselves and their future generation ki hum ne darr kar nahi ...sufiyon se conversion kra liya tha. Does anyone ever admit they were so darpok to be converted? Kuch aise bhi jat the jo fought till last breath under the khaps. Jin mein nahi tha dum, ban gye fatak se mulle. Ab kehte phir te hain ki marji se bane the. Jo cheez un ke poorvajon pe jabardasti thopi gyi thi, now that pressure is gone, it is an opportunity for them to throw away that curse of forced religion and take the more civilised option of ghar-waapasi.

I think you need to understand the basics of Sikhism or at least its teaching. In it basic principles its much closer to Islam than Sikhism. For eg. no idol worship and equality for all. And it wasn't a response to Islam. Thats a myth. Yes, its martial nature was formalized by the later Gurus due to conflicts with Mughals but at no stage was there an enmity with Islam. Infact Guru Nanaks' closest companion was Mardana, a Muslim Marasi. Further, the foundation of Harmandir Sahib was laid by a Muslim sufi, Mian Mir of Lahore. His family is still honoredby SGPC regularly. I can quote more examples, but just haven't got the time right now. Maybe over the weekend.

 

[vdhillon]

A. EGALITARIANISM IS LOT MORE THAN NON-EXISTENCE OF JUST CASTE BASED DISCRIMINATION
Egalitarianism entails lot more than just castes. It also includes age, gender, religion, region, races, etc. Other religion may not include discrimination coded in their scriptures based on caste but they discriminate on other classifications, some lot more severely than Hinduism. No Islam did not spread in India as an answer to castes system, as Macaulayians would like to believe, it spread on the basis of kill-or-convert barbarism.

To compare the egalitarianism across religions, let us consider all other variables/parameters/constructs, and not limit ourselves to tunnel vision of casteism being the sole parameter.

B. WHY DID HINDU CONVERTS TO ISLAM SHUN EVERY OTHER VIRTUE BUT NOT THE REASON (CASTE) THEY CONVERTED FOR
The argument that Hindus converted to Islam to escape casteism is highly concocted, because how come those converts readily shunned all the good virtues of Hinduisms (e.g. vegetarianism (better global food security, better health, better animal rights), not practicing the incest through marrying within own family (higher disease-free survival rate and longevity through better diversity of gene pool) ) yet never shunned the very same thing (casteism) is that SUPPOSEDLY (and to falsely) attributed to them as a cause of conversion. Jis cheez ko chodne ke liye Hindu dharam chodda, bus usi ko nahi chodda aur baaki sab kuch chodd diya, come to think of it, start eating meat for a vegetarian person and start sleeping with own cousins & half siblings is the hardest thing to adopt, as opposed to giving up caste.

C. QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS OF EGALITARIANISM (LACK OF) IN ISLAMIC VERSES
Islam does not have concept of caste in its scriptures. Absence of caste system in Quran should not be autoassumed as rejection of Casteism, because Quran did not specific forbade caste system. Absence of X (caste), does not mean presence of B (egalitarianism). Other factor needs to be looked at.

Example of
Quran considers women lower than men (testimony of 2 women equates to testimony of 1 man, man can merry 4, women cant, man can divorce at will and woman cant, only men go to heaven and women can not enter heaven, men can beat wife provided they adhere to length of stick mentioned in Hadith, etc). That is already 50% of Muslims (female) blatantly discriminated against. Out of 1.5 billion Muslims of early 7 billion people in the world, they discriminate against 750 million of their own ilk. I won't even mention sectarian Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiya, Khoja, etc discrimination as those did not exist in Sunnah (Quran) or Hadith, though I will cover this later in this comment.

Quran considers non-Muslim people of Abrahamic religions (Christians and Jews) as Dhimmis, automatically with lower rights than Muslims, they must be taxed or punished and should be actively converted. That is another 2 Billion Christian and Jew people being discriminated against.

Quran considers non-Muslim people of non-Abrahamic religions (Hindus, Buddhists, Communists, Atheists, other religions) as kafirs (non-believers). In the eyes of Quran, DHARMIC (Indian-origin religions) do not even count as belief, they are considered people of NO-FAITH, who going by Quranic verses do not even deserve protection as DHIMMIs (though Muslim rulers of India treated Hindus as cash-cow Dhimmis to generate REVENUE through zajia, converting all Hindus would have meant drying up of state revenue). KAFIRS (no rights, kill or convert, rape and pillage them at will) are different from DHIMMIS (who deserve protection after paying taxes). That is another 3.5 Billion (1.5 Billion Hindus and Buddhists + 2 Billion communists/atheists/others) people being discriminated against.

Cumulative total of people being discriminated against by Quranic verses 6.25 billion people (including 750 million Muslim women) out of a total of nearly 7 billion population of the world. That is the SCRIPTED (as per scriptures) FORMALISED MANDATED DISCRIMINATION of whooping 90% of the humanity.

D. QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS OF EGALITARIANISM IN HINDUISM
Since we considered only the early sources/scriptures of Islam (Quran and Hadith) and we did not factor in later sectarian corruptions in Islam which have led to even more in-group and out-group (endo and exo) discrimination, to make the comparison fair let us consider only earliest scriptures of Hinduism, which are ONLY VEDAS, Vedas have concept of profession based castes and carry no discrimination. That is zero % discrimination.

Even if we make it apple vs oranges comparison, consider later corruption of Hinduism while ignoring later corruption of Islam, e.g. Manu-vadi birth-based casteism of early medieval period, Hindus discriminate against 60% of lower castes (OBC, SC and ST). Additionally, due to later corruption, we started to discriminate against own women thats another 20% (50% of the remaining 40%), giving us 80% in-group (among Hindus) discrimination against our own. 80% of 1 billion Hindus (inflated and grossly rounded up number) is 800 million. Surprisingly Hindus are very tolerant (if not accepting) of others e.g. no concept of proselytizing, converting, forcing, killing, taxing non-Hindus and just letting them co-exist without troubles. This means Hindus are worst enemies of their own but very tolerant of outsiders. This roughly translates to Hindus discriminating against 800 million people (most among themselves) of 7 billion people, that is mere 9% rate of discrimination even after factoring in LATER CORRUPTIONS, compare that to 90% rate of discrimination by the RELIGION OF PIECE (of blood thirsty mayhem) which is truly most (non)EGALITARIAN. winkzzz

I will disgaree. And I am talking about the scriptures here and not how it was interpreted or operationalised by the people. No other religion sanctions the supremacy of particular community over others in its holy books. In fact that was how Islam, Christianity and Sikhism grew in India. Their teachings appealed to the lower castes as there was no heiarchy. Of course it turned out differently at least in Islamic and Sikh society where old-caste or tribal bonds held strong.

 

[vdhillon]

This does not prove Sikhism is more close to Islam. Vedas also do not have idol worship.

Mardana was a convert, that was the idea of reconverting them.

Also, consider why Mughals turned against Sikhs's in first place, due to reconversion and Sikh guru came to protect Hindus of Kashmir who were forced to convert (those who were unfortunate enough to not escape this, now claim it was some Sufi who performed the conversion rites... lolz ... gotta save the face)

But yes, you are right, it is undeniable that Sikhism has incorporated stuff from Islam to LOWER THE BARRIER TO ENTRY/RECONVERSION of Muslims, this makes it easier for the Muslims to convert/come back to DHARMIC fold via Sikhism with least amount of changes Gotta love this smart PRODUCT PLACEMENT strategy of Gurus Once they are back in the fold, they are warriors to fight against the forced Islamic conversions

I think you need to understand the basics of Sikhism or at least its teaching. In it basic principles its much closer to Islam than Sikhism. For eg. no idol worship and equality for all. And it wasn't a response to Islam. Thats a myth. Yes, its martial nature was formalized by the later Gurus due to conflicts with Mughals but at no stage was there an enmity with Islam. Infact Guru Nanaks' closest companion was Mardana, a Muslim Marasi. Further, the foundation of Harmandir Sahib was laid by a Muslim sufi, Mian Mir of Lahore. His family is still honoredby SGPC regularly. I can quote more examples, but just haven't got the time right now. Maybe over the weekend.

 

[swaich]

This does not prove Sikhism is more close to Islam. Vedas also do not have idol worship.

Mardana was a convert, that was the idea of reconverting them.

Also, consider why Mughals turned against Sikhs's in first place, due to reconversion and Sikh guru came to protect Hindus of Kashmir who were forced to convert (those who were unfortunate enough to not escape this, now claim it was some Sufi who performed the conversion rites... lolz ... gotta save the face)

But yes, you are right, it is undeniable that Sikhism has incorporated stuff from Islam to LOWER THE BARRIER TO ENTRY/RECONVERSION of Muslims, this makes it easier for the Muslims to convert/come back to DHARMIC fold via Sikhism with least amount of changes Gotta love this smart PRODUCT PLACEMENT strategy of Gurus Once they are back in the fold, they are warriors to fight against the forced Islamic conversions

I don't remember reading anywhere Mardana was a convert to Sikhism. Nor was there a marketing ploy as you put it.

I feel like you are giving your own spin on things without reading enough. I would recommend you to read a book on Sikh History. You can start with Khushwant Singh's a History of the Sikhs Vol I and II. Or perhaps a Wiki article on Sikhism could summarize a lot of things for you.

 

[vdhillon]

I may be off the mark about Mardana's conversion, I will check once again properly. Thanks for letting me know.

I don't remember reading anywhere Mardana was a convert to Sikhism. Nor was there a marketing ploy as you put it.

I feel like you are giving your own spin on things without reading enough. I would recommend you to read a book on Sikh History. You can start with Khushwant Singh's a History of the Sikhs Vol I and II. Or perhaps a Wiki article on Sikhism could summarize a lot of things for you.

 

[aryanpoonia]

All the sects originated on the land of Hindustan , should be considered Hinduism as Hindu is not a religion ,it is national identity, it is jeevan Darshan. Indian religious tradition promotes freedom of thinking( bhudhism) that's why there are so many sects. As far as caste discrimination in Hinduism is concerned, in modern time every caste follow its independent sect( dalits - bhudhism, bania- Jainism, jats- arya smaj, Sikhism, majority worship certain deities) therefore the issue of brahimin domination is not very important. We should give priority only to those scriptures which are against caste discrimination. It does not matter much if those scriptures are related to any certain sect. Because every Sikh , bhudhist and Jainist is a Hindu. Thus Hindu should be national and cultural identity.
I hope there is nothing objectionable.