प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा भारतीय समाज......

[hawasinghsangwan]

प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा भारतीय समाज......

प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा भारतीय समाज को गुमराह कर रहे है : सांगवान

राष्ट्रीय दलित-पिछड़ा एकता संघ के राष्ट्रीय अध्यक्ष पंडित हवासिंह सांगवान ने एक प्रेस विज्ञप्ति में कहा कि विश्व हिंदू परिषद के अंतर्राष्ट्रीय महासचिव प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा अपने बयानों से भारतीय समाज को गुमराह कर रहे हैं जिसमें उन्होंने बार-बार बयान दिया है कि भारत में रहने वाले सभी मुस्लिम और ईसाईयों के पूर्वज हिंदू थे। इसमें जरा भी सच्चाई नहीं है क्योंकि तोगडिय़ा जी ने अभी तक इतिहास का पूरा अध्ययन नहीं किया है। चीनी यात्री फाईयान हमारे देश में 15 वर्ष सन् 399 से 414 तक रहे और उन्होंने अपने संस्मरणों को चीनी भाषा में लिखा, जिनका बहुत पहले अंग्रेजी में अनुवाद हो चुका है और उससे बड़ा स्पष्ट है कि उस समय भारत में मुख्य धर्म बौद्ध धर्म ग्रामीण क्षेत्र में तथा जैन धर्म शहरी क्षेत्रों में व्यापक था। इसके अतिरिक्त हिंदू धर्म का उस समय तक कहीं कोई नामोनिशान नहीं था। इस बात की सच्चाई इससे भी सिद्ध होती है कि हमारे किसी भी हिंदू कहे जाने वाले ग्रंथों में हिंदू शब्द का कोई प्रयोग नहीं किया गया है। फाईयान ने लिखा है कि ब्राह्मण जाति के लोग छोटे-छोटे मंदिरों में मूर्ति पूजन करते थे। लेकिन इनका कहीं कोई धर्म नहीं लिखा है। इसलिए तोगडिय़ा का यह कहना बिल्कुल असत्य है कि सभी के पूर्वज हिंदू थे, बल्कि सभी के पूर्वज बौद्ध और जैन थे। हिदू शब्द का प्रचलन सातवीं सदी के बाद अस्तित्व में आया है, जिसके अनेकों प्रमाण उपलब्ध हैं।
आरएसएस के प्रमुख मोहन भागवत भी बार-बार बयान दे रहे हैं कि भारत में रहने वाले सभी हिंदू हैं। तो हमारा कहना है कि जब हमारे देश में सभी हिंदू हैं, चाहे वे कोई भी धर्म अपनाएं और बदलें तो फिर भारतवर्ष में धर्म का झगड़ा कहां रह गया क्योंकि चाहे कोई किसी भी धर्म को अपनाए, वह हिंदू ही कहलाएगा। फिर आखिर किसलिए सांप्रदायिक दंगे होते हैं और अनगिनत लोग मौत के घाट उतार दिए जाते हैं? इसलिए हमारा कहना है कि धार्मिक नेताओं को तथ्यों पर आधारित ही बयान देने चाहिएं ताकि देश में धार्मिक भाईचारा बना रहे।

 

[abhikrana]

Sir with due respect, the purpose of your post is unclear and would request you to further elaborate:

1. If it is aimed against Pravin Togadia and/or RSS?
2. If you outrightly reject the fact that all Christians and Sikhs and most of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent had common Hindu ancestors?
4. Do you also reject the fact that millions of Hindus were either killed or converted to Islam by such barbarians as Aurangzeb through the fear of the sword?
3. Do you mean to say that Hinduism came after Budhism and Jainism and if so, what about the Lord Shiva and other Gods and Goddesses inscribed on the coins and artifacts during the Indus valley civilization and the findings at Harappa, Mohenjadaro, Kalibangan? Do you refute the findings of world renowned scholars - Historians and archaeologists who have established these facts over decades of painstaking research?

Sir, you are a very senior JL member and I hold you in high esteem as:
1. an elder
2. a guardian of our borders
3. a major force which was pivotal in Jats getting reservation.

Being your admirer I believe Our criticism and the energies that go into it need to be focused at the larger issues that face the community, the states (Jat populous states) and our nation instead of such write-ups which would have no constructive role either for us as a community nor as Jats as contributors to the society or the nation.

Sir, with you being our elder, we need your guidance to show us the way how to build our society in a constructive manner, how to build on our strengths rather than being unduly critical of others, how to ensure that the future generations are well equipped to face the challenges that will be thrown by a very fast changing scenario both nationally and internationally.

प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा भारतीय समाज को गुमराह कर रहे है : सांगवान

राष्ट्रीय दलित-पिछड़ा एकता संघ के राष्ट्रीय अध्यक्ष पंडित हवासिंह सांगवान ने एक प्रेस विज्ञप्ति में कहा कि विश्व हिंदू परिषद के अंतर्राष्ट्रीय महासचिव प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा अपने बयानों से भारतीय समाज को गुमराह कर रहे हैं जिसमें उन्होंने बार-बार बयान दिया है कि भारत में रहने वाले सभी मुस्लिम और ईसाईयों के पूर्वज हिंदू थे। इसमें जरा भी सच्चाई नहीं है क्योंकि तोगडिय़ा जी ने अभी तक इतिहास का पूरा अध्ययन नहीं किया है। चीनी यात्री फाईयान हमारे देश में 15 वर्ष सन् 399 से 414 तक रहे और उन्होंने अपने संस्मरणों को चीनी भाषा में लिखा, जिनका बहुत पहले अंग्रेजी में अनुवाद हो चुका है और उससे बड़ा स्पष्ट है कि उस समय भारत में मुख्य धर्म बौद्ध धर्म ग्रामीण क्षेत्र में तथा जैन धर्म शहरी क्षेत्रों में व्यापक था। इसके अतिरिक्त हिंदू धर्म का उस समय तक कहीं कोई नामोनिशान नहीं था। इस बात की सच्चाई इससे भी सिद्ध होती है कि हमारे किसी भी हिंदू कहे जाने वाले ग्रंथों में हिंदू शब्द का कोई प्रयोग नहीं किया गया है। फाईयान ने लिखा है कि ब्राह्मण जाति के लोग छोटे-छोटे मंदिरों में मूर्ति पूजन करते थे। लेकिन इनका कहीं कोई धर्म नहीं लिखा है। इसलिए तोगडिय़ा का यह कहना बिल्कुल असत्य है कि सभी के पूर्वज हिंदू थे, बल्कि सभी के पूर्वज बौद्ध और जैन थे। हिदू शब्द का प्रचलन सातवीं सदी के बाद अस्तित्व में आया है, जिसके अनेकों प्रमाण उपलब्ध हैं।
आरएसएस के प्रमुख मोहन भागवत भी बार-बार बयान दे रहे हैं कि भारत में रहने वाले सभी हिंदू हैं। तो हमारा कहना है कि जब हमारे देश में सभी हिंदू हैं, चाहे वे कोई भी धर्म अपनाएं और बदलें तो फिर भारतवर्ष में धर्म का झगड़ा कहां रह गया क्योंकि चाहे कोई किसी भी धर्म को अपनाए, वह हिंदू ही कहलाएगा। फिर आखिर किसलिए सांप्रदायिक दंगे होते हैं और अनगिनत लोग मौत के घाट उतार दिए जाते हैं? इसलिए हमारा कहना है कि धार्मिक नेताओं को तथ्यों पर आधारित ही बयान देने चाहिएं ताकि देश में धार्मिक भाईचारा बना रहे।

 

[upendersingh]

मेरा ख्याल है कि आदरणीय कमांडेंट सांगवान के नाम से कोई और यहां पोस्ट डालता है, शायद उनके सपुत्र राकेश सांगवान जी। यह स्पष्ट होना चाहिए।
बहरहाल कितनी हास्यास्पद बात है कि बौद्ध धर्म को महान सनातन/हिंदू धर्म से पुराना साबित करने का प्रयास किया जा रहा है। बौद्ध धर्म को मानने पर बिहार में जन्मे गौतम बुद्ध की मानसिक गुलामी करने का अहसास होता है, इसलिए बहुत अच्छा हुआ जो हिंदुस्तान से इसकी जड़ें उखड गईं और महज एक-डेढ़ प्रतिशत भारतीय ही इससे जुड़े।
प्रवीण तोगड़िया और मोहन भागवत जैसे लोगों को ढेरों शुभकामनाएं, वे बहुत अच्छा कार्य कर रहे हैं।

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Sir with due respect, the purpose of your post is unclear and would request you to further elaborate:

1. If it is aimed against Pravin Togadia and/or RSS?
2. If you outrightly reject the fact that all Christians and Sikhs and most of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent did not have common Hindu ancestors?
4. Do you also reject the fact that millions of Hindus were either killed or converted to Islam by such barbarians as Aurangzeb through the fear of the sword?
3. Do you mean to say that Hinduism came after Budhism and Jainism and if so, what about the Lord Shiva and other Gods and Goddesses inscribed on the coins and artifacts during the Indus valley civilization and the findings at Harappa, Mohenjadaro, Kalibangan? Do you refute the findings of world renowned scholars - Historians and archaeologists who have established these facts over decades of painstaking research?

Sir, you are a very senior JL member and I hold you in high esteem as:
1. an elder
2. a guardian of our borders
3. a major force which was pivotal in Jats getting reservation.

Being your admirer I believe Our criticism and the energies that go into it need to be focused at the larger issues that face the community, the states (Jat populous states) and our nation instead of such write-ups which would have no constructive role either for us as a community nor as Jats as contributors to the society or the nation.

Sir, with you being our elder, we need your guidance to show us the way how to build our society in a constructive manner, how to build on our strengths rather than being unduly critical of others, how to ensure that the future generations are well equipped to face the challenges that will be thrown by a very fast changing scenario both nationally and internationally.

This is the beauty of the post that it has raised many issues in one go. You are free to make your own interpretation of the issues raised and participate in debate on the issue of your own choice with the initiator of the discussion.

It appears that so long as religion is not allowed as 'individual choice' no country can march on the path of progress.

Let people choose to adopt this, that or no religion as they wish/choose and others concentrate on their own adopted religion/or no religion, then there would be no unnecessary noise on this useless issue of 'religion' !

One thing more, no coin has been found anywhere belonging to Harappan/Indus Valley civilisation so far. If you have special information on the issue, kindly share, it would add to the knowledge of numismatics, archaeology and history of the world.

 

[abhikrana]

Yes Sir, I agree many issues have been raised in the post. All that I have requested for is further clarity. Nothing more.

As for your request for the source of Lord Shiva and other Gods and Goddesses on pre-historic coins/seals the authenticity and age of which has been proven by such scientific techniques as carbon dating, please refer to the link below. There is a world of credible information on these ancient Hindu civilizations. I would request you to further google and look for yourself or in case you have access to any good library.

http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/harappa-mohenjodaro

This is the beauty of the post that it has raised many issues in one go. You are free to make your own interpretation of the issues raised and participate in debate on the issue of your own choice with the initiator of the discussion.

It appears that so long as religion is not allowed as 'individual choice' no country can march on the path of progress.

Let people choose to adopt this, that or no religion as they wish/choose and others concentrate on their own adopted religion/or no religion, then there would be no unnecessary noise on this useless issue of 'religion' !

One thing more, no coin has been found anywhere belonging to Harappan/Indus Valley civilisation so far. If you have special information on the issue, kindly share, it would add to the knowledge of numismatics, archaeology and history of the world.

 

[rkhatkar]

मेरा ख्याल है कि आदरणीय कमांडेंट सांगवान के नाम से कोई और यहां पोस्ट डालता है, शायद उनके सपुत्र राकेश सांगवान जी
The issue is not with the difference in the name of Father or Son; the issue is in the philosophy and the direction of views expressed;
कितनी हास्यास्पद बात है कि बौद्ध धर्म को महान सनातन/हिंदू धर्म से पुराना साबित करने का प्रयास किया जा रहा है
The interpretation is not so simple; it seems a try to trace relief from the name Sanatan for the help of term Hindu (The term which the post writer has challenged)
बौद्ध धर्म को मानने पर बिहार में जन्मे गौतम बुद्ध की मानसिक गुलामी करने का अहसास होता है
If any agrees to the above sentence, it means concerned post writer member is in influence of a certain normal person namely Buddha where as…..
प्रवीण तोगड़िया और मोहन भागवत जैसे लोगों को ढेरों शुभकामनाएं, वे बहुत अच्छा कार्य कर रहे हैं।
Above sentence doesn't deny that its writer has not been able to save himself from the cocoon of Togadia Ji and/or Bhagwat Ji…

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Yes Sir, I agree many issues have been raised in the post. All that I have requested for is further clarity. Nothing more.

As for your request for the source of Lord Shiva and other Gods and Goddesses on pre-historic coins/seals the authenticity and age of which has been proven by such scientific techniques as carbon dating, please refer to the link below. There is a world of credible information on these ancient Hindu civilizations. I would request you to further google and look for yourself or in case you have access to any good library.

http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/harappa-mohenjodaro

Friend,

I know that concept of Shiva worship and antiquity of Indian culture and civilization goes to pre-historic times. My curiosity was just to know where did the coins came to light !

So My simple objection to your post was that coins have not been unearthed from the Indus Valley archaeological sites. Thanks for providing the link.

But I am sorry to state that I have again and again read the given link but could not find any reference to the coins found from anywhere so your surmise that Shiva coins were in circulation in those days is not supported by historical studies. the link merely says : " There are many remnants of the script on pottery vessels, seals, and amulets, but without a "Rosetta Stone" linguists and archaeologists have been unable to decipher it."

Perhaps you equate seals to coins as your juxtaposition of the two together in your post shows. But both of them are separate not inter-changeable, Dear Friend, as no coins have come out to knowledge so far.

Rest, I have no interest in joining the debate between the advocates of one religion theory through ages in India and/or its antagonists, because, none can settle the issue to the satisfaction of one and all because on both the sides present is pressed into service to prove/disprove the past.

So let the discussion proceed for the sake of discussion.

If some all pleasing conclusion appears at the end of the day the country will be better place to live in peace and harmony in present and future times.

All the best participants.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

मेरा ख्याल है कि आदरणीय कमांडेंट सांगवान के नाम से कोई और यहां पोस्ट डालता है, शायद उनके सपुत्र राकेश सांगवान जी। यह स्पष्ट होना चाहिए।
बहरहाल कितनी हास्यास्पद बात है कि बौद्ध धर्म को महान सनातन/हिंदू धर्म से पुराना साबित करने का प्रयास किया जा रहा है। बौद्ध धर्म को मानने पर बिहार में जन्मे गौतम बुद्ध की मानसिक गुलामी करने का अहसास होता है, इसलिए बहुत अच्छा हुआ जो हिंदुस्तान से इसकी जड़ें उखड गईं और महज एक-डेढ़ प्रतिशत भारतीय ही इससे जुड़े।
प्रवीण तोगड़िया और मोहन भागवत जैसे लोगों को ढेरों शुभकामनाएं, वे बहुत अच्छा कार्य कर रहे हैं।

Kindly do not misinterpret Historical facts dear Shri Singh :

Siddharatha who later emerged after enlightenment as Gautama, the Buddha was born in Lumbani in Nepal not in Bihar.

Buddhism remained a major religion of majority of Indians for thousands of years and spread far and wide as is testified by the fact that it is one of the Major three religions of the people of globe at the present times.

The causes of its decline in India were many and one of them was that Hindu religious reformers adopted Gautama the Buddha as reincarnation of Vishnu and installed his images/sculptures in the temples. And gradually separate identity of Buddhism eclipsed on the country.

The stems of Hindu religion are deeper rooted than the word 'Hindu' itself as this word - Hindu - came into existence very late.

Let us not twist historical facts in our discussion of the issue to suit our liking or disliking of the persons involved.

 

[samarkadian]

प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा भारतीय समाज को गुमराह कर रहे है : सांगवान

राष्ट्रीय दलित-पिछड़ा एकता संघ के राष्ट्रीय अध्यक्ष पंडित हवासिंह सांगवान ने एक प्रेस विज्ञप्ति में कहा कि विश्व हिंदू परिषद के अंतर्राष्ट्रीय महासचिव प्रवीण तोगडिय़ा अपने बयानों से भारतीय समाज को गुमराह कर रहे हैं जिसमें उन्होंने बार-बार बयान दिया है कि भारत में रहने वाले सभी मुस्लिम और ईसाईयों के पूर्वज हिंदू थे। इसमें जरा भी सच्चाई नहीं है क्योंकि तोगडिय़ा जी ने अभी तक इतिहास का पूरा अध्ययन नहीं किया है। चीनी यात्री फाईयान हमारे देश में 15 वर्ष सन् 399 से 414 तक रहे और उन्होंने अपने संस्मरणों को चीनी भाषा में लिखा, जिनका बहुत पहले अंग्रेजी में अनुवाद हो चुका है और उससे बड़ा स्पष्ट है कि उस समय भारत में मुख्य धर्म बौद्ध धर्म ग्रामीण क्षेत्र में तथा जैन धर्म शहरी क्षेत्रों में व्यापक था। इसके अतिरिक्त हिंदू धर्म का उस समय तक कहीं कोई नामोनिशान नहीं था। इस बात की सच्चाई इससे भी सिद्ध होती है कि हमारे किसी भी हिंदू कहे जाने वाले ग्रंथों में हिंदू शब्द का कोई प्रयोग नहीं किया गया है। फाईयान ने लिखा है कि ब्राह्मण जाति के लोग छोटे-छोटे मंदिरों में मूर्ति पूजन करते थे। लेकिन इनका कहीं कोई धर्म नहीं लिखा है। इसलिए तोगडिय़ा का यह कहना बिल्कुल असत्य है कि सभी के पूर्वज हिंदू थे, बल्कि सभी के पूर्वज बौद्ध और जैन थे। हिदू शब्द का प्रचलन सातवीं सदी के बाद अस्तित्व में आया है, जिसके अनेकों प्रमाण उपलब्ध हैं।
आरएसएस के प्रमुख मोहन भागवत भी बार-बार बयान दे रहे हैं कि भारत में रहने वाले सभी हिंदू हैं। तो हमारा कहना है कि जब हमारे देश में सभी हिंदू हैं, चाहे वे कोई भी धर्म अपनाएं और बदलें तो फिर भारतवर्ष में धर्म का झगड़ा कहां रह गया क्योंकि चाहे कोई किसी भी धर्म को अपनाए, वह हिंदू ही कहलाएगा। फिर आखिर किसलिए सांप्रदायिक दंगे होते हैं और अनगिनत लोग मौत के घाट उतार दिए जाते हैं? इसलिए हमारा कहना है कि धार्मिक नेताओं को तथ्यों पर आधारित ही बयान देने चाहिएं ताकि देश में धार्मिक भाईचारा बना रहे।

Sir, That is what has happened with mythological texts which has been edited as per wish of rulers/influential people or the ones who had this facility and a greater chunk of population was always mislead through inaccuracies.

Modi, although from a right wing party, came to the power through the blabbering and promise of solely development. Not a single time he ever faltered in his words on religious issues but related outfits have turned over-ambitious. Some may call it diplomacy to suit their liking but as far as greater impact is concerned VHP/RSS will surely de-rail the image and resolve of the PM sooner through such claims and declarations. BJP has a great history of in-fighting.

 

[swaich]

Yes Sir, I agree many issues have been raised in the post. All that I have requested for is further clarity. Nothing more.

As for your request for the source of Lord Shiva and other Gods and Goddesses on pre-historic coins/seals the authenticity and age of which has been proven by such scientific techniques as carbon dating, please refer to the link below. There is a world of credible information on these ancient Hindu civilizations. I would request you to further google and look for yourself or in case you have access to any good library.

http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/harappa-mohenjodaro

No coins but seals were found. And you are correct, Shiva as a deity seems to have similarity with some seals of a man found in IVC sites. But that is still a similarity and no definite proof exists.

It is also understood that the oncoming Aryans (or whatever we call the new inhabitants) absorbed the Gods/Deities of the IVC inhabitants and the resultant pantheon of Gods was born. Some deities came to prominence - possibly Shiva while others may have declined. Gods also change shapes and sizes in depictions.

So it will be incorrect to say Hinduism or Hindu deities were in existence during the IVC. Yes, similarities are there but as the IVC script has not yet been deciphered, we cannot say for sure.

Perhaps our resident historians, Kharbji, Ravi Choudhary ji and Rajpal ji can shed more light.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

No coins but seals were found. And you are correct, Shiva as a deity seems to have similarity with some seals of a man found in IVC sites. But that is still a similarity and no definite proof exists.

It is also understood that the oncoming Aryans (or whatever we call the new inhabitants) absorbed the Gods/Deities of the IVC inhabitants and the resultant pantheon of Gods was born. Some deities came to prominence - possibly Shiva while others may have declined. Gods also change shapes and sizes in depictions.

So it will be incorrect to say Hinduism or Hindu deities were in existence during the IVC. Yes, similarities are there but as the IVC script has not yet been deciphered, we cannot say for sure.

Perhaps our resident historians, Kharbji, Ravi Choudhary ji and Rajpal ji can shed more light.

Your surmise is absolutely correct - similarity of a Yogi on some seals/sculptures ascribed to meditating Shiva, nothing more nor less !

Even in Rigveda no direct mention of Shiva.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Sir, That is what has happened with mythological texts which has been edited as per wish of rulers/influential people or the ones who had this facility and a greater chunk of population was always mislead through inaccuracies.

Modi, although from a right wing party, came to the power through the blabbering and promise of solely development. Not a single time he ever faltered in his words on religious issues but related outfits have turned over-ambitious. Some may call it diplomacy to suit their liking but as far as greater impact is concerned VHP/RSS will surely de-rail the image and resolve of the PM sooner through such claims and declarations. BJP has a great history of in-fighting.

Today's Hinduism absorbed all the best characteristics of faiths with ritualism of the Brahminical doctrines prior to advent of Islam and Christianity in India. One of the oldest known written proof of religions prevalent in India are Asokan Inscriptions. They make no mention of either Hindus or Hinduism. The Mauraya King clearly mentioned in his edicts on the MORALITY the Ajivikas, Buddhist monks, Brahamins etc. but nowhere mentioned word Hindu. That proves the fact that in later times the word used by foreign invaders for describing the people living beyond Indus in due course of time began to be used to describe all people and their religion as Hindu.

Thus the new name to combination of faiths and religions of India and her people came to be known as Hindu.

 

[upendersingh]

मेरा ख्याल है कि आदरणीय कमांडेंट सांगवान के नाम से कोई और यहां पोस्ट डालता है, शायद उनके सपुत्र राकेश सांगवान जी
The issue is not with the difference in the name of Father or Son; the issue is in the philosophy and the direction of views expressed;
कितनी हास्यास्पद बात है कि बौद्ध धर्म को महान सनातन/हिंदू धर्म से पुराना साबित करने का प्रयास किया जा रहा है
The interpretation is not so simple; it seems a try to trace relief from the name Sanatan for the help of term Hindu (The term which the post writer has challenged)
बौद्ध धर्म को मानने पर बिहार में जन्मे गौतम बुद्ध की मानसिक गुलामी करने का अहसास होता है
If any agrees to the above sentence, it means concerned post writer member is in influence of a certain normal person namely Buddha where as…..
प्रवीण तोगड़िया और मोहन भागवत जैसे लोगों को ढेरों शुभकामनाएं, वे बहुत अच्छा कार्य कर रहे हैं।
Above sentence doesn't deny that its writer has not been able to save himself from the cocoon of Togadia Ji and/or Bhagwat Ji…

Thanks

You are getting personal, Mr. RKhatkar. I can answer all your above points suitably, but it will be a waste of time.

 

[upendersingh]

Kindly do not misinterpret Historical facts dear Shri Singh :

Siddharatha who later emerged after enlightenment as Gautama, the Buddha was born in Lumbani in Nepal not in Bihar.

Buddhism remained a major religion of majority of Indians for thousands of years and spread far and wide as is testified by the fact that it is one of the Major three religions of the people of globe at the present times.

The causes of its decline in India were many and one of them was that Hindu religious reformers adopted Gautama the Buddha as reincarnation of Vishnu and installed his images/sculptures in the temples. And gradually separate identity of Buddhism eclipsed on the country.

The stems of Hindu religion are deeper rooted than the word 'Hindu' itself as this word - Hindu - came into existence very late.

Let us not twist historical facts in our discussion of the issue to suit our liking or disliking of the persons involved.

Lumbini in Nepal is not very big revelation. Yet Budha is supposed to be a product of India all over the world, because when he was born Lumbini was a part of India. Buddha is not supposed to be born in Nepal, so no further argument from my side in this concern.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

You are getting personal, Mr. RKhatkar. I can answer all your above points suitably, but it will be a waste of time.

Wonderful reply or to say it a Good Escape root when no arguments match the questions raised by Shri Khatkar Sahib !!

 

[drrajpalsingh]

........... बौद्ध धर्म को मानने पर बिहार में जन्मे गौतम बुद्ध की मानसिक गुलामी करने का अहसास होता है, इसलिए बहुत अच्छा हुआ जो हिंदुस्तान से इसकी जड़ें उखड गईं और महज एक-डेढ़ प्रतिशत भारतीय ही इससे जुड़े।....................

and

Lumbini in Nepal is not very big revelation. Yet Budha is supposed to be a product of India all over the world, because when he was born Lumbini was a part of India. Buddha is not supposed to be born in Nepal, so no further argument from my side in this concern.

None claims it as a big or small revelation; but it is the birthplace of the great master and is not in Bihar as supposed earlier by you.

Thanks for agreeing to the fact that Lumbni is not in Bihar and therefore there would be no sense of shame or a short of slavery of Bihar and also that at one point of time the Buddhism was the religion of a major section of the population of India.

Remember by that time when Buddhism had swept the adherence of people as mass faith, there had even not emerged the word [Hindu] later on coined to describe the people of India as Hindu, which on the advent of Islam in India began to be used to denote both its residents and their religious belief as a whole.

To put the record on historically verifiable facts should not be construed to mean that we are opposed to Hinduism as a faith of people including ours !

 

[abhikrana]

Sir, yes I juxtaposed seal with a coin. All those with a little bit of knowledge about history would know that coins came into existence much later. Though I thought that the message went out clear. However, it seems the discussion is being focused on semantics rather than substance - but in any case I would be careful if you insist.

I am also surprised that instead of focusing on the issue, we are beating around the bush by getting involved in the question of Nepal and Bihar. Did the present day Bihar and Nepal exist thousands of years ago as they exist today? If yes, who was the prime minister of Nepal then and the CM of Bihar then?

However, the fact remains that the seals have Lord Shiva and other Gods and Goddesses on them. Now if you say that Lord Shiva inscribed on the seal could or could not be Lord Shiva or just some yogi, it is your interpretation. For the believers there is no reason to doubt that it is Lord Shiva. I have this question for you - Have you seen any photograph or Buddha, Mahavir Jain, Jesus Christ, Mohammed or Guru Nanak? Or have you personally met any person who has personally heard, seen or spoken to any of these holy men? NO? So if there is no proof of Hindu Gods and Hindu religion and its beliefs are mythological, on what basis you can say that others are not mythological? Is this not double standards?

Now coming to your point that the word 'Hindu' came into existence much later than the Indus valley civilization. As per you Hindus did not exist during the Indus valley civilization or at least their faith was not Hinduism. Right? Why do we have names for persons, things, places???? To distinguish one from the other. Hope you agree. Now let's see a scenario where only one person, place or thing exists and there is no need for us to distinguish him from someone or something that does not exist at all. There is very much a possibility that either the Hindus identified themselves with a different name then or that since all were Hindus, there was no need to distinguish them from others and hence no name.

I am amazed how the voice of logical reasoning, justification and rationality come up ONLY in the case of Hindu faith, but when it comes to other religions, we blindly follow what is told to us - Another example of double standards/hypocrisy.

I agree there should be peace and harmony. But at what cost?? At the cost of deprecating your own faith - the faith that you are still following, that your ancestors followed and despite the fear of the sword did not change.

PS. None of the above points are aimed at any particular person. Just part of the thought process which was set in motion on reading the posts/replies.

Friend,

I know that concept of Shiva worship and antiquity of Indian culture and civilization goes to pre-historic times. My curiosity was just to know where did the coins came to light !

So My simple objection to your post was that coins have not been unearthed from the Indus Valley archaeological sites. Thanks for providing the link.

But I am sorry to state that I have again and again read the given link but could not find any reference to the coins found from anywhere so your surmise that Shiva coins were in circulation in those days is not supported by historical studies. the link merely says : " There are many remnants of the script on pottery vessels, seals, and amulets, but without a "Rosetta Stone" linguists and archaeologists have been unable to decipher it."

Perhaps you equate seals to coins as your juxtaposition of the two together in your post shows. But both of them are separate not inter-changeable, Dear Friend, as no coins have come out to knowledge so far.

Rest, I have no interest in joining the debate between the advocates of one religion theory through ages in India and/or its antagonists, because, none can settle the issue to the satisfaction of one and all because on both the sides present is pressed into service to prove/disprove the past.

So let the discussion proceed for the sake of discussion.

If some all pleasing conclusion appears at the end of the day the country will be better place to live in peace and harmony in present and future times.

All the best participants.

 

[upendersingh]

and


None claims it as a big or small revelation; but it is the birthplace of the great master and is not in Bihar as supposed earlier by you.

Thanks for agreeing to the fact that Lumbni is not in Bihar and therefore there would be no sense of shame or a short of slavery of Bihar and also that at one point of time the Buddhism was the religion of a major section of the population of India.

Remember by that time when Buddhism had swept the adherence of people as mass faith, there had even not emerged the word [Hindu] later on coined to describe the people of India as Hindu, which on the advent of Islam in India began to be used to denote both its residents and their religious belief as a whole.

To put the record on historically verifiable facts should not be construed to mean that we are opposed to Hinduism as a faith of people including ours !

According to you were Guru Nanak and Shaheed Bhagat Singh Indians or Pakistani???

 

[narenderkharb]

Your surmise is absolutely correct - similarity of a Yogi on some seals/sculptures ascribed to meditating Shiva, nothing more nor less !

Even in Rigveda no direct mention of Shiva.

True.

Rigveda doesn't recognise Lord Shiva ....Rudra mentioned in Rigveda is a Rain God, lord of Maruts ( clouds).

 

[swaich]

True.

Rigveda doesn't recognise Lord Shiva ....Rudra mentioned in Rigveda is a Rain God, lord of Maruts ( clouds).

Rudra would then be more closer to Indra then I believe?