जिन्होंने हिंदू धर्म को त्यागा...

[abhikrana]

Dear Sir,

You are again imputing wrong motivation. I would be the last person to bring you down to grab your position/responsibility of a moderator.

It has always been my endeavour to do my job honestly without it being affected by personal prejudice/bias.

Your action immediately brought to my mind two things that came immediately:
1. With great power comes great responsibility
2. Absolute power corrupts absolutely

Unbiased work should not only be done, it should be seen to be done.

The timing of your closing my thread is highly circumspect.

Friend,

There is nothing wrong in aspiring to be or not to act as moderator/editor/administration.

If you aspire to be a moderator, kindly approach the site management !

But, presently resist the temptation of alleging other moderators in the best interest of all concerned !!

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dear Sir,

You are again imputing wrong motivation. I would be the last person to bring you down to grab your position/responsibility of a moderator.

It has always been my endeavour to do my job honestly without it being affected by personal prejudice/bias.

Your action immediately brought to my mind two things that came immediately:
1. With great power comes great responsibility
2. Absolute power corrupts absolutely

Unbiased work should not only be done, it should be seen to be done.

The timing of your closing my thread is highly circumspect.

Friend,

There is no question of attributing motives to anyone as there is enough space for all of us on the site, so never think in terms of someone going up or other one coming down.

I consider you as an hon'ble member of the site but rules of the site have to be followed by all. You should never think that I am here to let you or anybody else down as all of us are brethern.

Kindly also read my previous post where I have offered to reopen the thread and reply if you are ready to carry forward discussion on the topic. If interested to continue send personal message to any of the person on Contact us and thread will be opened. Otherwise do not make a non issue, issue of discussion please.

Now remember I have also contributed in deviating from the thread theme heading here for which I express regret and hope that the issue closes here with this last post from my side.

A humble request to participants :

In further discussion on the present thread, instead of discussing anything else, the participants are expected to concentrate on making theme related contributions so that the discussion could reach to some tangible destination. Kindly remember the theme of the topic before posting contribution : जिन्होंने हिंदू धर्म को त्यागा, उनका पतन क्यों हो गया?

Irrelevant posts will be summarily removed as per site rules but rest assured no interference from our side till no tangible deviation comes to fore !

Wish all the best.

 

[singhvp]

The mundane stuff posted by some of our sacre-couers every now and then to propagate their theology and their robust intolerance to other faiths and; equal contempt towards the agnostics, has been lowering the level of discussion in a graduated manner. The statement that "जिन्होंने हिंदू धर्म को त्यागा, उनका पतन क्यों हो गया?" is again a reflection of their robustly chauvinistic amour-propre. According to my little knowledge about the religion, Hindu religion has been crumbling under its own sheer weight. The dictates and commandments meant to perpetuate the supremacy of the so called upper castes like 'Brahmins' led the untouchable to shift to other streams of faith. Also, the heavy doze of unnecessary rituals and superstition, apart from the racial discrimination, has been responsible for the migration.

It is though not officially prohibited to discuss anything except obscenity/profanity, it would be sane on the part of members not to pursue personal politico-religious agenda here. There could be people around who do not follow any religion. I am one of those. It is a matter of inclination and personal choice. No one has a right to impose one's theological preferences upon others or undermine other faiths. It is noticed that a sense of hatred is afloat in the air against one particular stream of thought which only serves to lower the reputation of this site. Some members seem to be dumping unwarranted sarcasm and rudeness when their thoughts are not accepted by others in toto. Opinions are bound to differ on this topic and one should not get nervous on hearing the views contrary to their thoughts. I notice that the moderators, especially Dr. Rajpal has been doing a commendable job. Members should also cooperate by not taking their actions personal.

 

[swaich]

The mundane stuff posted by some of our sacre-couers every now and then to propagate their theology and their robust intolerance to other faiths and; equal contempt towards the agnostics, has been lowering the level of discussion in a graduated manner. The statement that "जिन्होंने हिंदू धर्म को त्यागा, उनका पतन क्यों हो गया?" is again a reflection of their robustly chauvinistic amour-propre. According to my little knowledge about the religion, Hindu religion has been crumbling under its own sheer weight. The dictates and commandments meant to perpetuate the supremacy of the so called upper castes like 'Brahmins' led the untouchable to shift to other streams of faith. Also, the heavy doze of unnecessary rituals and superstition, apart from the racial discrimination, has been responsible for the migration.

It is though not officially prohibited to discuss anything except obscenity/profanity, it would be sane on the part of members not to pursue personal politico-religious agenda here. There could be people around who do not follow any religion. I am one of those. It is a matter of inclination and personal choice. No one has a right to impose one's theological preferences upon others or undermine other faiths. It is noticed that a sense of hatred is afloat in the air against one particular stream of thought which only serves to lower the reputation of this site. Some members seem to be dumping unwarranted sarcasm and rudeness when their thoughts are not accepted by others in toto. Opinions are bound to differ on this topic and one should not get nervous on hearing the views contrary to their thoughts. I notice that the moderators, especially Dr. Rajpal has been doing a commendable job. Members should also cooperate by not taking their actions personal.

I dont know when people will realize that criticizing religion or evaluating theology isn't an insult. We should all do it. And after all, what better place to start than with the religion we are most accustomed to, the one we see all around us. To question is no crime.

But there are quite a few who run out of arguments and to try to hound out others who hold divergent opinions. Perhaps its education, intellect and diminished exposure to diversity which is at fault.

 

[singhvp]

I dont know when people will realize that criticizing religion or evaluating theology isn't an insult. We should all do it. And after all, what better place to start than with the religion we are most accustomed to, the one we see all around us. To question is no crime.

But there are quite a few who run out of arguments and to try to hound out others who hold divergent opinions. Perhaps its education, intellect and diminished exposure to diversity which is at fault.

To question or not to question is the crucial question about any debate. If the originator of any debate doesn't want people to question his/her wisdom considering it absolute truth, it is pointless to debate.

 

[upendersingh]

To question or not to question is the crucial question about any debate. If the originator of any debate doesn't want people to question his/her wisdom considering it absolute truth, it is pointless to debate.

Respected VP ji, there is nothing offensive in this thread and no one (originator of any debate in your words) is getting away from being questioned, but where did you question? There is no harm to discuss the performance of those people who gave up Hinduism and who remained with it.

 

[swaich]

Respected VP ji, there is nothing offensive in this thread and no one (originator of any debate in your words) is getting away from being questioned, but where did you question? There is no harm to discuss the performance of those people who gave up Hinduism and who remained with it.

Your idea of comparison is in a particular religion "who follows whom" or "who is bullied by whom" which is a bogus criteria. Moreover the original title of the thread seemed to suggest you opened the thread with a preconceived notion that whoever left Brahminical Hinduism are doing worst compared to those who remained. It hardly a critical evaluation. So much for comparison.

Moreover you still haven't clarified how in your esteemed logic the caste/community of the founder becomes the supreme one and all others come under its foot.

 

[upendersingh]

Your idea of comparison is in a particular religion "who follows whom" or "who is bullied by whom" which is a bogus criteria.

Excuse me, it is not my idea. I have learnt it from others.

Moreover the original title of the thread seemed to suggest you opened the thread with a preconceived notion that whoever left Brahminical Hinduism are doing worst compared to those who remained. It hardly a critical evaluation. So much for comparison.

On one side you are saying the same criteria bogus and here you have put 'Brahminical' before Hinduism. That is the cruel face of this world. Though Brahminic case is different, but if we have got independence from Brits, then will you still call us under British rule? We have new caste order now : General, OBC, SC and ST. We want to go in OBC, but Brahminic people say no you go to General category. So this is the order which matters. If you still call Hinduism Brahminic, then I ask you to prove your claims.

Moreover you still haven't clarified how in your esteemed logic the caste/community of the founder becomes the supreme one and all others come under its foot.

Founder becomes the supreme because followers are following him, but he is not following the followers. With his attempts he gets some uniqueness and he shares it with others to improve their lives so he needs to be treated as superior. He has shown the ignorant people right path. Doesn't he deserve to be treated as master? His performance/achievement is huge, but followers' not. What do you say?
And by the way courtesy goes to others to deviate the topic of this thread.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

........... We have new caste order now : General, OBC, SC and ST. We want to go in OBC, but Brahminic people say no you go to General category. So this is the order which matters. If you still call Hinduism Brahminic, then I ask you to prove your claims..........

I
Who has authorised these 'Brhminic people' to direct the destiny of the Jats. Of course, they seem to enjoy the blessings of Manuwadi system of caste system. If we want to break the obnoxious chains put on the social system in olden days, they are trying to force their way on us by adopting all options open to them and keep the community on the lowest possible ladder of social heirarchy because we want to get advantage of the constitutional provision to raise our status and standing. Is it not high handedness in the name of implementing canons of Hinduism !

II.
Of course, these categories represent castes as propounded by Manu/Hindu Code butkindly note that without inclusion of Hindu castes in them they have no identity of their own. In other words, Hindu caste system prevails and is likely to remain so in the times to come. As a born Indian Hindu Jat we have acquired our identity.

But so far as social hierarchy is concerned are Jats, Brahmins, Aggarwals, Gold-smiths, carpenters, cobblers enjoy equality or not, is a simple question which requires a straightforward answer !

 

[abhikrana]

Dear Sir, Thanks for not reopening my thread - Congress - Greatest threat to Hindu religion despite my making a formal request to you. And then it is said that none of the actions are personal. Above that, my post requesting you to reopen it was deleted by you as inappropriate. What was inappropriate in it?? I am sorry to say, but all this reflects arbitrariness.

If you would not like me to be active, please say so. I will stop visiting Jatlland without asking even a single question taking your advice as a command from an elder.

Also I would request you to kindly highlight how is Manu vedic system hurting you as an individual/community?? After the constitution came into effect, there is no discrimination against anyone anymore. Even the SC/STs cannot be called what they were called in the earlier times. In fact they are DMs, SDMs and Judges and everyone irrespective of caste has to bow down in front of their power. Today no one stops anyone from becoming an IAS, IPS, doctor, Engineer, lawyer, Judge, etc. If you have the perseverance, dedication and intelligence, no career, social or professional opportunity is out of your reach irrespective of caste.

Let's be realistic and accept that things have changed for the better enormously in Hindu faith in comparison to what it was say a hundred or more years ago. It seems that a few people who curse Hindu religion are stuck in a time warp.

I
Who has authorised these 'Brhminic people' to direct the destiny of the Jats. Of course, they seem to enjoy the blessings of Manuwadi system of caste system. If we want to break the obnoxious chains put on the social system in olden days, they are trying to force their way on us by adopting all options open to them and keep the community on the lowest possible ladder of social heirarchy because we want to get advantage of the constitutional provision to raise our status and standing. Is it not high handedness in the name of implementing canons of Hinduism !

II.
Of course, these categories represent castes as propounded by Manu/Hindu Code butkindly note that without inclusion of Hindu castes in them they have no identity of their own. In other words, Hindu caste system prevails and is likely to remain so in the times to come. As a born Indian Hindu Jat we have acquired our identity.

But so far as social hierarchy is concerned are Jats, Brahmins, Aggarwals, Gold-smiths, carpenters, cobblers enjoy equality or not, is a simple question which requires a straightforward answer !

 

[singhvp]

Dear Sir, Thanks for not reopening my thread - Congress - Greatest threat to Hindu religion despite my making a formal request to you. And then it is said that none of the actions are personal. Above that, my post requesting you to reopen it was deleted by you as inappropriate. What was inappropriate in it?? I am sorry to say, but all this reflects arbitrariness.

If you would not like me to be active, please say so. I will stop visiting Jatlland without asking even a single question taking your advice as a command from an elder.

Also I would request you to kindly highlight how is Manu vedic system hurting you as an individual/community?? After the constitution came into effect, there is no discrimination against anyone anymore. Even the SC/STs cannot be called what they were called in the earlier times. In fact they are DMs, SDMs and Judges and everyone irrespective of caste has to bow down in front of their power. Today no one stops anyone from becoming an IAS, IPS, doctor, Engineer, lawyer, Judge, etc. If you have the perseverance, dedication and intelligence, no career, social or professional opportunity is out of your reach irrespective of caste.

Let's be realistic and accept that things have changed for the better enormously in Hindu faith in comparison to what it was say a hundred or more years ago. It seems that a few people who curse Hindu religion are stuck in a time warp.

The untouchables getting into civil services viz. IAS/IPS/IFS etc. is not a result any religious liberalism. In Southern part of India, there are still temples where people of certain castes are not allowed entry. There have been instances where temple courtyards were cleaned with milk consequent upon entry of some untouchable there.

 

[abhikrana]

Indian constitution guaranteeing equal opportunity of employment may not be a result of religious liberalism, but it is very much a REALITY (whether we accept it or not).

Yes, even I have read about a few random/scattered incidents of untouchability in the south. But neither did I nor anybody else here say that there is no further scope for reforms in Hinduism. The need of the hour is reforms and not crass criticism without any action.

A few people view Hinduism as very narrowly limited to the self styled Godmen. I would say that is a very wrong perspective. Hinduism is much much greater/more than these thugs. And moreover, these Godmen pay the price of the wrongs committed by them. Indian administrative/police machinery is doing its job well.

The untouchables getting into civil services viz. IAS/IPS/IFS etc. is not a result any religious liberalism. In Southern part of India, there are still temples where people of certain castes are not allowed entry. There have been instances where temple courtyards were cleaned with milk consequent upon entry of some untouchable there.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dear Sir, Thanks for not reopening my thread - Congress - Greatest threat to Hindu religion despite my making a formal request to you. And then it is said that none of the actions are personal. Above that, my post requesting you to reopen it was deleted by you as inappropriate. What was inappropriate in it?? I am sorry to say, but all this reflects arbitrariness.

If you would not like me to be active, please say so. I will stop visiting Jatlland without asking even a single question taking your advice as a command from an elder.

Also I would request you to kindly highlight how is Manu vedic system hurting you as an individual/community?? After the constitution came into effect, there is no discrimination against anyone anymore. Even the SC/STs cannot be called what they were called in the earlier times. In fact they are DMs, SDMs and Judges and everyone irrespective of caste has to bow down in front of their power. Today no one stops anyone from becoming an IAS, IPS, doctor, Engineer, lawyer, Judge, etc. If you have the perseverance, dedication and intelligence, no career, social or professional opportunity is out of your reach irrespective of caste.

Let's be realistic and accept that things have changed for the better enormously in Hindu faith in comparison to what it was say a hundred or more years ago. It seems that a few people who curse Hindu religion are stuck in a time warp.

Friend, Kindly re-read the post to get a reply to your question in para I :http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...40;्यागा/page15 and follow it please.

Reply to two points made by me are still awaited. Rather you have put some more questions, hence an attempt to further elucidation.

Yes, the caste system as propounded in the past still continues to plague the Indian society even today. Contrary to theoretical stipulations, the lists of categories for governmental jobs, admissions, reservation of constituencies for MLAs/MPs etc have to be based on the lists of castes available in our Hindu code. This is being done to bring up deprived/depressed castes to the level of so called upper castes and a welcome step.

End of untouchability based on caste stands abolished but has it been wiped out practically in toto from the country, remains a gray area for all policy makers and administrators to deal with. Is it not so !

Then take up another practical side of the caste in the field of our body polity: see how during the election time, vote bank politics forces the parties to nominate dominant/majority caste members in certain constituencies as their candidates, appeals for garnering votes for a specific caste member or see the cabinet formations where representation to various caste members is given so that they could act as balancing factor between the government and social reality of the state/country.

What is the logic behind all this? The answer is continuation of the old Hindu caste system in our society has not been rooted out.

Hence none can deny the fact that the institution of caste in Indian Polity and society continues to be a reality even today as it was in the past. Some progress has been made to weaken this system and much more yet remains to be done.

 

[krishdel]

Very much right

-तुम शूद्र क्यों हों? छोटूराम पूछते।
-ऐसा ब्राह्मणों ने कहा है। शूद्र जवाब देते।
-उन्होंने तो हम जाटों को भी शूद्र कहा है। क्या हम उनकी सुनते हैं?
-धर्म में तो लिखा है कि हम शूद्र हैं। झुके हुए शूद्र चेहरे जवाब देते।
-उनके धर्म में तो ये भी लिखा है कि विधवा पुनर्विवाह पाप है। लेकिन जाट तो विधवा पुनर्विवाह करते हैं। वो तो नहीं मानते उनकी लिखी हुई बकवासें। छोटूराम कहते।
(शूद्र चुप रहते लेकिन आज हम जवाब जानते हैं। जाटों ने उस समय की ब्राह्मणवादी मानसिकता का सफलता पूर्वक सामना किया। क्योंकि वो संगठित थे, उनके पास ज़मीने भी थीं और वो आत्मनिर्भर भी थे। जबकि शूद्रों के साथ ऐसा नहीं था। ऐसा नहीं है कि जाटों को इसकी क़ीमत नहीं चुकानी पड़ी। उन्होंने चुकाई, अपना इतिहास और अपने नायक खोकर। ब्राह्मण लेखकों ने उन्हें गहरे दफ़ना दिया।)
(हर प्रबुद्ध पाठक को दीनबन्धु छोटूराम को पढ़ना चाहिए और ख़ासकर उन पर लिखी सूरजमल सांगवान की पुस्तक -‘किसान संघर्ष तथा विद्रोह’)

 

[abhikrana]

Sir, my reply in blue:

Friend, Kindly re-read the post to get a reply to your question in para I :http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...40;्यागा/page15 and follow it please.

Reply to two points made by me are still awaited. Rather you have put some more questions, hence an attempt to further elucidation.

Request you to kindly mention the two points again. Would try to the best of my ability to come up with a reply that would try to answer your points/questions as closely as possible.

Yes, the caste system as propounded in the past still continues to plague the Indian society even today. Contrary to theoretical stipulations, the lists of categories for governmental jobs, admissions, reservation of constituencies for MLAs/MPs etc have to be based on the lists of castes available in our Hindu code. This is being done to bring up deprived/depressed castes to the level of so called upper castes and a welcome step.

End of untouchability based on caste stands abolished but has it been wiped out practically in toto from the country, remains a gray area for all policy makers and administrators to deal with. Is it not so !

Then take up another practical side of the caste in the field of our body polity: see how during the election time, vote bank politics forces the parties to nominate dominant/majority caste members in certain constituencies as their candidates, appeals for garnering votes for a specific caste member or see the cabinet formations where representation to various caste members is given so that they could act as balancing factor between the government and social reality of the state/country.

Sir, there is again a contradiction in this statement. We say that political parties should not consider local caste equations in giving tickets to candidates and make them ministers. Yet, at the same time WE felt bad when BJP ignored these caste equations and made a non-Jat a CM despite Jats being the dominant community. How can both the views exist together?

What is the logic behind all this? The answer is continuation of the old Hindu caste system in our society has not been rooted out.

Hence none can deny the fact that the institution of caste in Indian Polity and society continues to be a reality even today as it was in the past. Some progress has been made to weaken this system and much more yet remains to be done.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friend,

I do not think that my post under reference leads one to think on terms of this or that party or this persons belonging to a certain caste has become CM and the other one belonging to certain other caste has been given opportunity. This is totally alien to what I have said. You are mistaken to limit my questions or discussion to Haryana castes or polity and that too to restricting it to the recent change of Government. Kindly re-read. You will find I am talking of Indian Polity and you are talking of party politics of a certain political party due to reasons best known to you !

You would find that this is the gist of caste system in India and the response of Indian polity and society towards this institution even after attainment of freedom from the British and coming into force new constitution of India throughout the Indian Union.

If you or any other person has arguments to refute the existence of caste system in Indian society or the efforts of politicians of all hues and colours to their advantage at the time of hustings; it would be greatly welcomed !

Thanks,

NB :My Post may be quoted separately from the reply portion to be added in future as per past practice of the site. Would you spare time to turn to my post :http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...351;ागा&p=373519#post373519 and take trouble to enlighten me on the issues raised.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

It seems that some over enthusiasts among our Hindu religion are not aware about the inherent rich qualities and characteristics of Hinduism and forget the strength of Hindu religion which has witnessed so many turns and twists to its existence and withstood all pressures and threats through the ages on its own. Their supposed fear that Hindu dharma is in danger and their attempts to forcible convert a handful of the adherents of other religions/faiths can fortify are totally ill founded attempts. Many people on their own continue to joining this fold every year so no need to cry foul about other religions/faiths on this count.

Hindu dharma has millions and millions of adherents who go on increasing the number of its adherents year after year and looking at the rich and glorious past history and heritage of Hindu dharma, there seems to be no cause to fear about its continuity as long as the mankind is there on the globe !

 

[abhikrana]

Sir,

The caste based politics in Haryana is not any different from any other part of the country. So you rightly blame Indian polity to indulge in caste equations. But when there is a beginning made against caste based equations in Haryana, WE still have a problem with that. More than the polity/politicians, we need to change our perspective. We are okay with saying that there should be no caste based politics when it concerns other castes, but when it comes to our own caste, we want our pound of flesh. In effect, what we are saying is Heads you lose and Tails, you still lose.

And how is Hinduism related/responsible to/for this caste/region/linguistic based politics?????

I would request you to be specific with the questions put by you and I would try to discuss them further with you.

Friend,

I do not think that my post under reference leads one to think on terms of this or that party or this persons belonging to a certain caste has become CM and the other one belonging to certain other caste has been given opportunity. This is totally alien to what I have said. You are mistaken to limit my questions or discussion to Haryana castes or polity and that too to restricting it to the recent change of Government. Kindly re-read. You will find I am talking of Indian Polity and you are talking of party politics of a certain political party due to reasons best known to you !

You would find that this is the gist of caste system in India and the response of Indian polity and society towards this institution even after attainment of freedom from the British and coming into force new constitution of India throughout the Indian Union.

If you or any other person has arguments to refute the existence of caste system in Indian society or the efforts of politicians of all hues and colours to their advantage at the time of hustings; it would be greatly welcomed !

Thanks,

NB :My Post may be quoted separately from the reply portion to be added in future as per past practice of the site. Would you spare time to turn to my post :http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...351;ागा&p=373519#post373519 and take trouble to enlighten me on the issues raised.

 

[abhikrana]

Sir, You are right that Hinduism has withstood the vagaries of time - in the form of sword and through alms by the missionaries.

However, the question remains - people have no problem when Hindus convert to Islam or Christianity, BUT they set alarm bells ringing when others convert to Hinduism.

These are double standards which we unfortunately follow. For some, secularism is a one-way street.

It seems that some over enthusiasts among our Hindu religion are not aware about the inherent rich qualities and characteristics of Hinduism and forget the strength of Hindu religion which has witnessed so many turns and twists to its existence and withstood all pressures and threats through the ages on its own. Their supposed fear that Hindu dharma is in danger and their attempts to forcible convert a handful of the adherents of other religions/faiths can fortify are totally ill founded attempts. Many people on their own continue to joining this fold every year so no need to cry foul about other religions/faiths on this count.

Hindu dharma has millions and millions of adherents who go on increasing the number of its adherents year after year and looking at the rich and glorious past history and heritage of Hindu dharma, there seems to be no cause to fear about its continuity as long as the mankind is there on the globe !

 

[abhikrana]

Rajpal Sir,

I would also like to discuss with you the following:

Please elaborate how does being a Jat according to you puts you at a disadvantage in the present day scheme of things?

1. Are you not allowed to apply for any job?
2. Are you stopped from applying to any educational course?
3. Are Jats stopped from visiting temples?
4. Are Jats not allowed to celebrate festivals?

How are Jats treated as Shudras in the present day?