Yes you are right. But there is guy who wants to marry her sister to keep the property within the family or whatever reason. Why our law is stopping them?? Moreover its not just related to jats other communites want this too
12 points by MahaPanchayat - How much you agree?
- Thread starter hemanthooda
- Start date
Yes you are right. But there is guy who wants to marry her sister to keep the property within the family or whatever reason. Why our law is stopping them?? Moreover its not just related to jats other communites want this too
Biological hazards of same gotra marriages.
It is biologically wrong to marry in same Gotra because offsprings are prone to various congenital disorders.It is genetically established that certain disease causing genes become dominant if present in both the parents which otherwise are recessive in the individuals.So it is also against mother Nature to marry in the same Gotra.
Yash Vir
It is biologically wrong to marry in same Gotra because offsprings are prone to various congenital disorders.It is genetically established that certain disease causing genes become dominant if present in both the parents which otherwise are recessive in the individuals.So it is also against mother Nature to marry in the same Gotra.
Yash Vir
kusumdhochak
New member
I agree to your first point. I didn't metion it because it was not needed here.
But I didn't understand the point you are trying to convey in the underlined
part of your second point. It is ambiguous. Also Kapil has made clearer what I wanted to convey. People are free to practice their culture.
But I didn't understand the point you are trying to convey in the underlined
part of your second point. It is ambiguous. Also Kapil has made clearer what I wanted to convey. People are free to practice their culture.
narendra81
Member
does this make any sense?
http://www.bhaskar.com/article/supreme-court-chief-justice-k-960349.html
'प्यार करने वाले खाप से नहीं डरते'
नई दिल्ली. सुप्रीम कोर्ट के चीफ जस्टिस के.जी. बालकृष्णनन ने कहा कि प्यार करने वाले किसी खाप से नहीं डरते हैं। चीफ जस्टिस का बयान उस समय आया जब प्रेमी जोड़ों पर खाप पंचायत का कहर बढ़ता ही जा रहा है।
अब तो खाप पंचायत के पक्ष में कांग्रेस के नवीन जिंदल और हरियाणा के पूर्व मुख्यमंत्री और भारतीय राष्ट्रीय लोकदल के प्रमुख ओम प्रकाश चौटाला भी उतर आए हैं। इन सभी का मानना है कि हिंदू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन कर एक ही गोत्र में शादी को प्रतिबंधित किया जाए।
इन्हीं सब बातों को ध्यान में रखते हुए बालकृष्णन ने प्यार करने वालों के पक्ष को और मजबूत कर दिया है। इस फैसले के बाद अब जहां पर प्रेमी जोड़ों को एक बल मिला है वहीं खाप पंचायत को जोर का झटका धीरे से लगा है।
http://www.bhaskar.com/article/supreme-court-chief-justice-k-960349.html
'प्यार करने वाले खाप से नहीं डरते'
नई दिल्ली. सुप्रीम कोर्ट के चीफ जस्टिस के.जी. बालकृष्णनन ने कहा कि प्यार करने वाले किसी खाप से नहीं डरते हैं। चीफ जस्टिस का बयान उस समय आया जब प्रेमी जोड़ों पर खाप पंचायत का कहर बढ़ता ही जा रहा है।
अब तो खाप पंचायत के पक्ष में कांग्रेस के नवीन जिंदल और हरियाणा के पूर्व मुख्यमंत्री और भारतीय राष्ट्रीय लोकदल के प्रमुख ओम प्रकाश चौटाला भी उतर आए हैं। इन सभी का मानना है कि हिंदू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन कर एक ही गोत्र में शादी को प्रतिबंधित किया जाए।
इन्हीं सब बातों को ध्यान में रखते हुए बालकृष्णन ने प्यार करने वालों के पक्ष को और मजबूत कर दिया है। इस फैसले के बाद अब जहां पर प्रेमी जोड़ों को एक बल मिला है वहीं खाप पंचायत को जोर का झटका धीरे से लगा है।
Sorry, I don't see how this is related to the discussion. Marriage with sister is universally recognized as wrong. Even marriage with cousin is almost universally recognized as wrong by Hindus. Hindu Marriage Act restricts BOTH. It makes an EXCEPTION (not a restriction) ONLY for a significant minority that allows marriage with cousins (Marriage of cousins in Jats and most other Hindu communities would still be illegal as per the current law). The law is not interferring with our customs, so we can't ask for an exception. We are rather asking for fresh RESTRICTIONS based on our customs. If the law has to put in restrictions for every community, then that law would become 10 times the size of Mahabharata. Say we still want to do it, just try drafting it. These customs change every 10 kms. Some people leave 3 gotras, some leave 2. Some recogize Kheda, some don't. Some follow the same-village restriction, some don't. Then there are gotra specific restrictions. Dalals, Maan, Sehwag and Deshwal have mutual exclusion clause on top of the usual gotra restrictions. Jat Rana/Chaudha Rana can allow/disallow marriage between each other based on what village you are talking about.
I'd love to look at this law. Sample one of the million provisions. Girls belonging to gotra X can't be married in gotra Y of villages A, B and C ONLY; however girls born in gotra Y of these villages can be married in gotra X anywhere except in villages A, B and C (I am not kidding, this is applicable to one of the cases from last year).
Law has to be just and not justify desires of anyone/everyone. A community's grouse is genuine if the law declares their customs as illegal. Not if the law fails to declare non-compliance with the customs as illegal.
Is this all that Chautala and Jindal are demanding- just prohibition of same-gotra marriage? How does this make any difference to cases involving different gotras, but still wrong as per the customs of that region?
.............Here's more to the news-"The Khap panchayats at a meeting (Mahapanchayat) held at Pai in Kaithal district on May 2 had put all elected representatives in the state on a one-month notice to support their demand for amending the Hindu Marriage Act seeking a ban on same gotra marriages.
They had also threatened to gherao Jindal in Kurukshetra tomorrow in case he did not extend support to their demand.
Navin Jindal stated that he supported their demand and regretted that he could not attend their Mahapanchayat."
And Chautala ji has gone a step ahead and said that he does not support inter-caste marriages as well.......
sanjaymalik
New member
Dear vijay HMA simply does not allow the marriage between cousins and the same is falling under prohibitory relationship but there are two execption to these prohibitory relationship which has been duly recognised by HMA as long stading customs and usage.
i) Marriage between cousins in South India
ii) marriage between widow of deceased husband with ( we can say Odhani Udhai )his younger brother in north India specially in (Haryana, Punjah, UP and Rajathan)
other customs have no validity as per section 4 of HMA. And cease to exists after the comencement of HMA.
So marraige between the same gotra need to insert in definition of Prohibitory relationship.
sunillathwal
New member
Agreed Kapil... hard to imagine an amendment in HMA which can satiate 'everyone'.
But there is one interesting point: If we see any of recent 'honor killing'/ 'same-gotra'/ 'same-village' marriage; None of these is between 'maternal cousins'/ 'paternal cousins' or between 'Mama-bhanji'!!
Let's us put HMA aside for a moment. Many members (and of course media!) are pointing out that times have changed; these 'old' customs have no place in modern society [natural 'progression']; younger/educated generation is influenced by what they see in other culture and they try to mimic it [globalization].
Here is my question: if such marriages are 'purely' consequence of 'globalization' and 'natural progressive' change; Why don't we see marriage between 'cousins' [as in muslims] or cases like 'Mama aapni bhanji ne le ke bhaaj gya' or 'us gaam ki chhori apne tau k chhore gelya bhaaj gayi' [As in most of southern India and/or muslims]??
Don't you think at some level, the fact that 'same-village' or 'same-gotra' marriages are LEGAL encourages such couples to take this drastic step of going against the social norms?
may be the 'legality of such marriages' even help in initiating such affairs!!
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sunillathwal
New member
Well, what will happen if someone (or a group of ppl) from northern India file a PIL that HMA- exception of allowing marriage between cousins should be extended to him/them also (for some reasons) ??
In principle, court should extend the courtesy to them as they are also asking for exception NOT a restriction. No??
Can anyone (law person @JL) shed some light on this: if it is possible to ask for such an exception? and if court can NOT entertain individuals request (only a community can ask for such exceptions) then how many people will define a community?
and if HMA is non-amendable? [that would be sad scenario, as south Indians got a fair deal courtesy to south Indian HMA-boss in 1955]
sunillathwal
New member
.... even Manoj's mom (Babli-Manoj wala Manoj) does not believe in inter-caste marriage!!
unfortunately, i could not find any link to the article; apparently she told the journalist that inter-caste marriage is 'wrong' and 'unacceptable' to her (i read in The Hindu -print edition).
In USA , UK, Germany there are cases where real brother and sisters have approached courts for accepting their relationships.. One can see them justifying their situation on youtube videos. Every society has some social norms and the law of land has to be sensitive to that. Muslim accept marrige among cousins, south Indians accept marrige with maternal uncle..Jats don't accept same gotra marriage and country has to respect that. If we have to score on being liberal than there is no end..we can go on for ever...There are gays, lesbians and so on..... Let us not forget that socity does not think same way as individuals.
narendra81
Member
"prohibition of same-gotra marriage" is the only point on which all jats agree i guess.. for rest of the issues jats of all regions dnt have common opinion so they wont be given any thought for sure. so logically itz more feasible to make demand which has chances to be fullfilled.
By the way, I don't think "prohibition of same-gotra marriage" if at all taken in law would solve the issue as u said there are so many other reasons/customs which are making ways for honor killings.
By the way, I don't think "prohibition of same-gotra marriage" if at all taken in law would solve the issue as u said there are so many other reasons/customs which are making ways for honor killings.
narendra81
Member
sir,
OK, letz imagine for a moment that same gotra marriage is made illegal by law. does that solve the honor killing issue??
NO. b'coz thr are many regional level jat customs (like no marriage in same village, no marriage in kheda etc. ) which if not followed are causing honor killings but they are not followed by all jats. So what should govt do in such case? they cant change law for some jats.
As the same gotra marriage law wont solve the whole issue, i dnt think it will be considered for ammendment.
OK, letz imagine for a moment that same gotra marriage is made illegal by law. does that solve the honor killing issue??
NO. b'coz thr are many regional level jat customs (like no marriage in same village, no marriage in kheda etc. ) which if not followed are causing honor killings but they are not followed by all jats. So what should govt do in such case? they cant change law for some jats.
As the same gotra marriage law wont solve the whole issue, i dnt think it will be considered for ammendment.
Sacrilegious!!!! You are equating Shri Chautala ji's comment with Manoj's moms comment!!!.....
....
........ even Manoj's mom (Babli-Manoj wala Manoj) does not believe in inter-caste marriage!!
unfortunately, i could not find any link to the article; apparently she told the journalist that inter-caste marriage is 'wrong' and 'unacceptable' to her (i read in The Hindu -print edition).
sunillathwal
New member
Sacrilegious!!!! You are equating Shri Chautala ji's comment with Manoj's moms comment!!!.....
No, i did it with genuine concern and uttermost reverence.
Thats the whole point. Its immoral and community wants to discourage it. Marriage within same Gotras is universally wrong among all Jats.
Also the amendment would affect jats and other communities who want to be part of it. It wont affect other hindus
The marriage laws in india is already a JOKE. Dharmendra can legally have 2 wives but i have never seen him reading namaj. I cant have two wives??? Chand mohamad can have 3 days honeymoon (legally) with Fija even having another legal wife and than say its over(over the phone) and than become bishnoi again lol. Did I say legally ?? Isnt Law restricting me to enjoy these?? A harijan can enjoy special status (quotas) in Govt jobs. Arent they restricting me to enjoy the same. There are lot of restrictions in law. In Fact LAW is other name of restriction.
They didnt ask to include khedas or other thing in law.
Either they have to make marriage laws universal through out India or they have to include this.
Also Sanjay has rightly put this
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That point say once prohibited in HMA it will automatically be prohibited in SMA
Sunil, the globalization argument given by whomsoever (haven't see anyone saying/writing it myself) sounds utterly BS to me. But even if I accept it for argument's sake, why would the youth be attracted to an Islamic custom. There is no evidence to suggest that Indian youth are influenced by Islamic culture. On the contrary all the evidence (language, clothes, music, TV, movies, etc.) suggests that the predominant influence is Western/American. Those cultures don't have marriage within cousins as popular customs.
I don't think so. Correlation doesn't imply causation. Same gotra marriages are legal AND some people are having them. Doesn't mean that since same gotra marriages are legal, hence some people are having them. An act being legal is not an encouragement; but it being illegal is a discouragement. Most activities are implicitly legal. In fact, everything that is not illegal is legal by definition. Like watching TV, eating bananas, playing cricket, etc. etc. Doesn't mean we feel "encouraged" to indulge in those activities because of their legal status. We do them purely out of choice. However, once you make something illegal and punishable by law (like stealing, killing, etc.); there is a strong discouragement even if you feel an urge to indulge in that activity.
In personal matters like these, I don't think law plays an important role. Everyone has a set of values/thought process that is shaped first by the family and then by the society. In fact, family is the first place where an individual gains awareness and appreciation of the societal norms. I don't think it is a coincidence that in most cases of breaking gotra customs, the individuals had backing of atleast one family and in some cases both families (like kadyan-gahlawat case).
In my opinion, we don't see cousin marriages, not because they are illegal, but because those values are still intact in most individuals of the society. As that is still a strict no-no in all families and then reinforced very strongly at the society level. There is a real feeling of kinship between cousins (even if they quarrel a lot, they KNOW that they are brothers-sisters). Is that the case with gotra customs as well? Do people actually feel the bhaichara that exists in theory? I have seen, first hand, boys of one paana flirting with girls of another paana of same village.
Not a law person, but would attempt.
HMA exception clearly states that it is applicable only when the custom already exists in the communities of both the boy and the girl intending to marry (exact language posted earlier). It has to be a pre-existing custom known to be practised by the communities of both the boy and the girl. A group of people don't need to get the exception separately if the custom is already existing for them. If not, then the custom can't be acquired through law.
That is HMA. But the court may be able to rule on it as a general question of law not restricted to HMA, if it believes that some fundamental right (equality?) is being violated. That is purely upto the court to interpret. But historically, Supreme Court has been wary of giving opinions/rulings on religious matters (Babri case is an example).