12 points by MahaPanchayat - How much you agree?
- Thread starter hemanthooda
- Start date
This is not a new trend- it has always been there. I think a scientific study would show that how the trend is actually going down and not going up as the report claims.
Again, the author's confirmation bias is evident from title and line 1. He has made his mind what the news is going to be- the rest of the story just has to be linked so that 2+2 looks equal to 4. Actually, I am not sure if these guys are actually dumb not to realise the huge logical error or cunning so as to do it deliberately. Here, you can't even blame the guy for having a caste bias. His surname is Siwach.
The starting line is the concluding line- "Honour killings, rampant in Haryana, have led to a bizzare trend in rural areas: villagers are increasingly marrying off their minor daughters, fearing love affairs may force the girls to run away from homes." The clear inference is that this trend is a new trend; making you wonder if he is smoking pot. Does he have the data for child marriages (not the reported cases. No. of FIRs is not same as actual no. of crimes)? Even if he has, he just gives the no. of child marriages stopped in last one year. There is no comparison of even this wrong figure with previous years. That is enough for him to conclude that the trend is bizarre and a consequence of honor killings.
Anjoo- I agree people usually worry more about girls eloping. Most of the supposed honour is linked to the females of the family. It is not restricted to Jats. This is the case across the length and breadth of the subcontinent and probably beyond. (Not saying it is right.)
Good to see that there is no khap bashing this time at least.
Jakharji- probably you can also accept that every viewpoint raised against Khaps or some of its members or its viewpoints is not "Khap bashing". The worst thing to say about any organization is that there is no room for dissent. And the most harmful thing the supporters/members of any institution can do is to shout down those who criticise the institution's policies/decisions.
I guess he has written other sensational articles on honor killings as well. He can write a bestseller in paperbacks.
I am sure he would be coming up with several other articles linking all that ails our community, like female foeticide/infanticide with the diktats by khaps or community.
I am sure he would be coming up with several other articles linking all that ails our community, like female foeticide/infanticide with the diktats by khaps or community.
Good to see that there is no khap bashing this time at least.
I don't think that pointing out or questioning should be termed as bashing. On the contrary, shouting at the people who are raising some genuine questions is certainly known as bashing.
The working style of any public organization ( if it is ) is supposed to get tested every now and then by the public. Healthy criticism should always appreciated but then people have different definitions of healthy as well as criticism.
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Good to see that there is no khap bashing this time at least.
It is unfortunate that a candid expression of one's conviction is termed as 'bashing'. Even if it is termed as 'bashing' it is better than 'philistinism' and the rancour encountered by the so called khap baiters.
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hemanthooda
New member
hemanthooda
New member
Honour killings: North India wages a vicious war against love
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ious-war-against-love/articleshow/6112387.cms
HISSAR: Nineteen honour killings between April 9 and June 30. That translates to 80 days. Roughly, one murder every four days. Clearly, north India is waging an undeclared war against love.
You might think, along with Khap officials, honour killings have to do with caste. But the real casualty is love. None of the murdered couples married by arrangement. Scratch the skin of caste, and out comes love, bleeding. Deep down, the real enemy of Khap is an emotion.
Brothers shooting sisters, grandmother killing granddaughter, mother strangling daughter, father arranging son's death. Honour killings offer a variety of combinations. All of them equally effective, all of them totally result oriented.
The death of the Delhi-based journalist Nirupama Pathak in her Koderma home for her relationship with a boy from a different caste and the arrest of her mother shook the country that has professed to evolve a casteless society.
Nirupama's turned out to be the first of a series of seemingly interminable killings. Not a single day passes without one or two reports of youngsters either being killed or being hounded by their families for the "crime" of falling in love. And it is turning relatives and friends, hitherto affectionate people, into demons.
Sociologist and JNU emeritus professor Yogendra Singh finds the recurring cases of honour killing "bewildering". Many factors seem to have overlapped, he says. "There was always a subterranean sentiment of male chauvinism lurking in the northern parts of the country, where female insubordination was always nipped in the bud. But even here, until recently, criminal acts were not sanctioned. Equally disturbing is the fact that caste killings are soft-pedalled as it hurts vote bank politics."
Capital city Delhi, for all its aspirations to be a truly international cultural centre, has seen three related honour killings in the last fortnight. And these murders were carried out by jeans-and T-shirt wearing youngsters, not the dhoti-kurta-pagri clad caste leaders.
There is a hum of anger in Haryana's Jatland against the state government for its alleged "misguided policies" (read liberal). The politically influential Jats are talking now of a "mahapanchayat", an extra-constitutional authority. And veiled threats are being made about cutting off Delhi's water supply unless the Hindu Marriage Act is changed to ban same-gotra and same-village marriages.
Says Rajkumar Numberdar, one of the more firebrand khap leader of Narnoud village: "It is not as if girls and boys did not fall in love earlier. But, of late, it is becoming difficult to control them because they know they just need to elope and ask for police protection. If politicians want to foist their warped ideas on us, why don't they first kill off village elders?"
Adds pradhan, Rajveer Dhanda: "If the government sends these elopers to jail instead of giving them police protection, the malaise will be taken care of in no time."
Village headmaster Dhoop Singh plays a mellower track, "Today's kids lack values. But, it is also true that we need to become more flexible and move with the times. It may make sense not to marry into the gotra of my mother or my grandmother, but why should entire villages -- at times dozens -- get together to establish brotherhoods and deny their children the right to live their lives their way?"
But Dhoop Singh is an exception. Said a 20-something junior teacher in Dhoop Singh's school to his boss, "Why don't you get your own son and daughter married then? Talk about change after that."
In Delhi, Kanjhawala resident Col (retd) Mehar Singh Dahiya, whose family has traditionally been an important player in the panchayat of the Dahiya Khap, does not agree with the term honour killing. "Why call it honour killing? It is a social compulsion that a father is under, because his daughter has shortchanged him by marrying against his will and has denied him spiritual upliftment that kanyadaan gives. In a way, the person you are calling killer is actually a victim of social circumstances." A daughter is precious, hence the pride in her, he adds. In other words, it's all for love.
Be it Nirupama's mother or the Sonepat grandmother, who killed her grand daughter, women seem to have made the transition from being mere spectators of honour killings to main actors.
"That's a generalization. It really depends on the circumstances in family and society," says DCP (Outer Delhi) Chhaya Sharma. "There is often an element of the killer's self-redemption before the eyes of the family after a daughter's conduct has caused shame. I can't really blame them. These women have for long been used to male domination, and they derive patriarchal values," he adds.
But all is not dark. Close to Narnoud is the Satror Khap comprising 40-50 villages that do not traditionally have intra-village marriages. "There are efforts now," says pradhan Inder Singh of Putthi village, "to break these up into smaller units -- tapas -- of 10-12 villages, where inter-marriage would be allowed."
It is not a sentimental decision. Says the pradhan's son, Bhagat Singh, a schoolteacher: "There are very few girls left and too many boys. Who will the boys marry otherwise?"
If social conditions are harbingers of change, will gotra and village taboos, too, go in the next 50 years? "Wait till the elders breathe their last. You will see change in 25 years," says Bhagat Singh.
But can lovers afford to wait that long?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ious-war-against-love/articleshow/6112387.cms
HISSAR: Nineteen honour killings between April 9 and June 30. That translates to 80 days. Roughly, one murder every four days. Clearly, north India is waging an undeclared war against love.
You might think, along with Khap officials, honour killings have to do with caste. But the real casualty is love. None of the murdered couples married by arrangement. Scratch the skin of caste, and out comes love, bleeding. Deep down, the real enemy of Khap is an emotion.
Brothers shooting sisters, grandmother killing granddaughter, mother strangling daughter, father arranging son's death. Honour killings offer a variety of combinations. All of them equally effective, all of them totally result oriented.
The death of the Delhi-based journalist Nirupama Pathak in her Koderma home for her relationship with a boy from a different caste and the arrest of her mother shook the country that has professed to evolve a casteless society.
Nirupama's turned out to be the first of a series of seemingly interminable killings. Not a single day passes without one or two reports of youngsters either being killed or being hounded by their families for the "crime" of falling in love. And it is turning relatives and friends, hitherto affectionate people, into demons.
Sociologist and JNU emeritus professor Yogendra Singh finds the recurring cases of honour killing "bewildering". Many factors seem to have overlapped, he says. "There was always a subterranean sentiment of male chauvinism lurking in the northern parts of the country, where female insubordination was always nipped in the bud. But even here, until recently, criminal acts were not sanctioned. Equally disturbing is the fact that caste killings are soft-pedalled as it hurts vote bank politics."
Capital city Delhi, for all its aspirations to be a truly international cultural centre, has seen three related honour killings in the last fortnight. And these murders were carried out by jeans-and T-shirt wearing youngsters, not the dhoti-kurta-pagri clad caste leaders.
There is a hum of anger in Haryana's Jatland against the state government for its alleged "misguided policies" (read liberal). The politically influential Jats are talking now of a "mahapanchayat", an extra-constitutional authority. And veiled threats are being made about cutting off Delhi's water supply unless the Hindu Marriage Act is changed to ban same-gotra and same-village marriages.
Says Rajkumar Numberdar, one of the more firebrand khap leader of Narnoud village: "It is not as if girls and boys did not fall in love earlier. But, of late, it is becoming difficult to control them because they know they just need to elope and ask for police protection. If politicians want to foist their warped ideas on us, why don't they first kill off village elders?"
Adds pradhan, Rajveer Dhanda: "If the government sends these elopers to jail instead of giving them police protection, the malaise will be taken care of in no time."
Village headmaster Dhoop Singh plays a mellower track, "Today's kids lack values. But, it is also true that we need to become more flexible and move with the times. It may make sense not to marry into the gotra of my mother or my grandmother, but why should entire villages -- at times dozens -- get together to establish brotherhoods and deny their children the right to live their lives their way?"
But Dhoop Singh is an exception. Said a 20-something junior teacher in Dhoop Singh's school to his boss, "Why don't you get your own son and daughter married then? Talk about change after that."
In Delhi, Kanjhawala resident Col (retd) Mehar Singh Dahiya, whose family has traditionally been an important player in the panchayat of the Dahiya Khap, does not agree with the term honour killing. "Why call it honour killing? It is a social compulsion that a father is under, because his daughter has shortchanged him by marrying against his will and has denied him spiritual upliftment that kanyadaan gives. In a way, the person you are calling killer is actually a victim of social circumstances." A daughter is precious, hence the pride in her, he adds. In other words, it's all for love.
Be it Nirupama's mother or the Sonepat grandmother, who killed her grand daughter, women seem to have made the transition from being mere spectators of honour killings to main actors.
"That's a generalization. It really depends on the circumstances in family and society," says DCP (Outer Delhi) Chhaya Sharma. "There is often an element of the killer's self-redemption before the eyes of the family after a daughter's conduct has caused shame. I can't really blame them. These women have for long been used to male domination, and they derive patriarchal values," he adds.
But all is not dark. Close to Narnoud is the Satror Khap comprising 40-50 villages that do not traditionally have intra-village marriages. "There are efforts now," says pradhan Inder Singh of Putthi village, "to break these up into smaller units -- tapas -- of 10-12 villages, where inter-marriage would be allowed."
It is not a sentimental decision. Says the pradhan's son, Bhagat Singh, a schoolteacher: "There are very few girls left and too many boys. Who will the boys marry otherwise?"
If social conditions are harbingers of change, will gotra and village taboos, too, go in the next 50 years? "Wait till the elders breathe their last. You will see change in 25 years," says Bhagat Singh.
But can lovers afford to wait that long?
The statement by Dhoop Singh Ji really makes sense in the present scenario. The avoidable things can be avoided instead of avoiding everything.
sunillathwal
New member
It amazes me, how toi manage to sustain the monotonic downward trend in absurdity in its article. Seriously, what is wrong with 'this' reporter!!???
1. See: Line 1, Honor Killing data: 0.25 (actually 19/80) honor killings per day.
After few lines, data changes to: "Not a single day passes without one or two reports of youngsters either being killed....". Anterograde amnesia?
2. " You might think, along with Khap officials, honour killings have to do with caste. But the real casualty is love. None of the murdered couples married by arrangement. Scratch the skin of caste, and out comes love, bleeding. Deep down, the real enemy of Khap is an emotion. "
3 .Next Line: " Brothers shooting sisters, grandmother killing granddaughter, mother strangling daughter, father arranging son's death. Honour killings offer a variety of combinations. "
Relate 2 and 3 in any possible logical manner. I dare you!!
4. The death of the Delhi-based journalist Nirupama Pathak in her Koderma home for her relationship with a boy from a different caste and the arrest of her mother...
Relate 'Khaps' with point 4.
5. Capital city Delhi, for all its aspirations to be a truly international cultural centre, has seen three related honour killings in the last fortnight. And these murders were carried out by jeans-and T-shirt wearing youngsters, not the dhoti-kurta-pagri clad caste leaders.
Or relate Khaps with point 5.
6. There is a hum of anger in Haryana's Jatland against the state government for its alleged "misguided policies" (read liberal). The politically influential Jats are talking now of a "mahapanchayat", an extra-constitutional authority.
aha, here comes JAt bashing again!! Funny, never mentioned Pathak's Caste or region. OR Delhi's honor killers' castes.
It is sad, how murders happened somewhere else and the 'ToI' gives the people quotes from a different region (three words: Khaps, Jats and Haryana). Passing the buck, eh?
7.
Be it Nirupama's mother or the Sonepat grandmother, who killed her grand daughter, women seem to have made the transition from being mere spectators of honour killings to main actors.
Definitely, some progress as far as khap-antiwomen-gender equality-women progress is concerned.
8. But all is not dark. Close to Narnoud is the Satror Khap comprising 40-50 villages that do not traditionally have intra-village marriages. "There are efforts now," says pradhan Inder Singh of Putthi village, "to break these up into smaller units -- tapas -- of 10-12 villages, where inter-marriage would be allowed."
It is not a sentimental decision. Says the pradhan's son, Bhagat Singh, a schoolteacher: "There are very few girls left and too many boys. Who will the boys marry otherwise?"
Words of encouragement for Khaps.. progressive Khap ? but wait, 'this' is not a Sentimental decision.
I don't understand how inter or intra-village(s) marriages solve the 'more Boys - less girls' problem. Why these statements are even put together in the article??
9. If social conditions are harbingers of change, will gotra and village taboos, too, go in the next 50 years? "Wait till the elders breathe their last. You will see change in 25 years," says Bhagat Singh.
But can lovers afford to wait that long?
Read point 5 and 9. What a confused soul!!
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Good catch, Sunil !
In my previous post, I quoted only lines in the above article which makes some sense to me, rest of the article hardly makes any sense.
Moreover, its totally stupid to relate each and every killing with Jats and Khaps.
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rakeshsehrawat
New member
Yes Sunil it makes sense
hemanthooda
New member
Why can't TOI ask a localite reporter to write on these issue who know things better as comapred to other reporters???
If you see most of these senseless articles are written by bengali reporters for ex last one was written by Abantika Ghosh.... May be she is trying to ridicule north indian society based on her knowledge of Benagli society.... Bengali society is very open on all these issues as far as my observation goes!!!!
If you see most of these senseless articles are written by bengali reporters for ex last one was written by Abantika Ghosh.... May be she is trying to ridicule north indian society based on her knowledge of Benagli society.... Bengali society is very open on all these issues as far as my observation goes!!!!
rakeshsehrawat
New member
They want to sell newspaper only and nothing else. Inke pass koye dhang ki khabar likhan ne hai nahi. Moti khabar aalya dhore mote pisse le le hain ar fer adangbadang chape ja hain. Naxalites ne kal 26 maar diye unke to favour mein likhe hain. Bangali howe e bawlibooch hain na to kolkatta desh ka businesshub tha in ne khatam kar diya. Naxalites inke paida kare hoye hain.
hemanthooda
New member
Ya i agree they are after TRP....this is non sense journalism....I read somewhere, take any israeli newspaper they always publish good positive news on their front page....rest all killings , attacks etc. negative stuff is in inside pages......In morning people wakeup with positive news , this is nation building but alas our media is totally opposite!!!!!
What about the previous one pasted here:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...prevent-girls-eloping/articleshow/6093087.cms
Written by Sukhbir Siwach. Idiocy knows no caste.
It amazes me, how toi manage to sustain the monotonic downward trend in absurdity in its article. Seriously, what is wrong with 'this' reporter!!???
1. See: Line 1, Honor Killing data: 0.25 (actually 19/80) honor killings per day.
After few lines, data changes to: "Not a single day passes without one or two reports of youngsters either being killed....". Anterograde amnesia?
2. " You might think, along with Khap officials, honour killings have to do with caste. But the real casualty is love. None of the murdered couples married by arrangement. Scratch the skin of caste, and out comes love, bleeding. Deep down, the real enemy of Khap is an emotion. "
3 .Next Line: " Brothers shooting sisters, grandmother killing granddaughter, mother strangling daughter, father arranging son's death. Honour killings offer a variety of combinations. "
Relate 2 and 3 in any possible logical manner. I dare you!!
4. The death of the Delhi-based journalist Nirupama Pathak in her Koderma home for her relationship with a boy from a different caste and the arrest of her mother...
Relate 'Khaps' with point 4.
5. Capital city Delhi, for all its aspirations to be a truly international cultural centre, has seen three related honour killings in the last fortnight. And these murders were carried out by jeans-and T-shirt wearing youngsters, not the dhoti-kurta-pagri clad caste leaders.
Or relate Khaps with point 5.
6. There is a hum of anger in Haryana's Jatland against the state government for its alleged "misguided policies" (read liberal). The politically influential Jats are talking now of a "mahapanchayat", an extra-constitutional authority.
aha, here comes JAt bashing again!! Funny, never mentioned Pathak's Caste or region. OR Delhi's honor killers' castes.
It is sad, how murders happened somewhere else and the 'ToI' gives the people quotes from a different region (three words: Khaps, Jats and Haryana). Passing the buck, eh?
7.
Be it Nirupama's mother or the Sonepat grandmother, who killed her grand daughter, women seem to have made the transition from being mere spectators of honour killings to main actors.
Definitely, some progress as far as khap-antiwomen-gender equality-women progress is concerned.
8. But all is not dark. Close to Narnoud is the Satror Khap comprising 40-50 villages that do not traditionally have intra-village marriages. "There are efforts now," says pradhan Inder Singh of Putthi village, "to break these up into smaller units -- tapas -- of 10-12 villages, where inter-marriage would be allowed."
It is not a sentimental decision. Says the pradhan's son, Bhagat Singh, a schoolteacher: "There are very few girls left and too many boys. Who will the boys marry otherwise?"
Words of encouragement for Khaps.. progressive Khap ? but wait, 'this' is not a Sentimental decision.
I don't understand how inter or intra-village(s) marriages solve the 'more Boys - less girls' problem. Why these statements are even put together in the article??
9. If social conditions are harbingers of change, will gotra and village taboos, too, go in the next 50 years? "Wait till the elders breathe their last. You will see change in 25 years," says Bhagat Singh.
But can lovers afford to wait that long?
Read point 5 and 9. What a confused soul!!
Very good analysis!
sanjaymalik
New member
rightly said, Some peoples like this Sukhbir Siwach, Jagmati Sangwan etc know each and every thing about our community but try to be over smart for remain in highlights.
hemanthooda
New member
Thats why i wrote "If you see most of these senseless articles are written by bengali reporters" not all of ....I hope u got the point Kapil!!!!