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Befitting reply
- Thread starter vivek
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sansanwalamit
Guest
what can I say, I am speechless, I could never imagine things getting so ugly.....
P
parul
Guest
I didn't get the subject line, can someone help?
parul
parul
Vivek Singh Tomar (Sep 27, 2003 10:41 p.m.):
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_393678,0006.htm
rajendersingh
New member
yes, for a soldier's point of view its a befitting reply. every one has the right to difine such things in his or her manner .but as a soldier it is our prime duty to uphold honour of our soldiers.
this remind me of my days with i p k f in sri lanka.incidendts like this were very common,rather i recall numbers of incidents worest than this.
i only wish that our officers specialy the senior ones are more bold and things will be better.
this remind me of my days with i p k f in sri lanka.incidendts like this were very common,rather i recall numbers of incidents worest than this.
i only wish that our officers specialy the senior ones are more bold and things will be better.
shekhar_nehra
New member
Parul (Sep 28, 2003 02:27 a.m.):
I didn't get the subject line, can someone help?
parul
" the Jats got the heads of two Pakistani soldiers." in retaliation to the carrying back of chopped off head of an Indian soldier(jat) by Pakistanis earlier.
The subject line is linked to this aspect of article.
The situation is grim.
This should not have happened.
It again puts us back to the same old question: " How to tackle with Pakistan ?"
I don't think that is a soldierly act whether done by Pakistanis or Indian soldiers. The officers have to control their emotions and that of their soldiers. We are in a civilized world and need to follow the rules of the game. Some may call it a befitting reply, but if you do the same thing what others have done, then what is the difference between you that them?
I agree with the retaliation and am proud of our soldiers killing 9 in reply to 4 casualties. That is befitting reply, but not chopping the heads of the soldiers.
These are my view and every one has the right to disagree.
I agree with the retaliation and am proud of our soldiers killing 9 in reply to 4 casualties. That is befitting reply, but not chopping the heads of the soldiers.
These are my view and every one has the right to disagree.
Problem is how to deal with Pakistanies who have midevial mind set. This mind set is like cancer and if not surgically removed, will kill the entire man kind sooner or later. There is no place for modern progress in type of Islam, which these fanatic elements want to preach and spread. If not managed, Islamic fanatics will take over the whole world like Ice age took over most of the Earth. In my view the only way is lage scale destruction of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. This is where the cancer tumour is in the Islamic body of faith.. World has to unite in this mission, else every one will pay the price...
Regards
Rajendra
Regards
Rajendra
jitenderhooda
New member
It is good that the jats have responded well by their 9 casualties .
Many of the members are officers in defence
So Plz comment
Then what is the way to tacle pakistanis ?
Many of the members are officers in defence
So Plz comment
Then what is the way to tacle pakistanis ?
Dear All,
Having served in the INFANTRY (The Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry) for 21 years ( 9 years in J&K on the IB/LOC), I fully endirse the action taken by the soldiers of the JAT paltan. In fact I retired in Aug 2001 and my last place of posting was KUPWARA (Hottest spot from 'Infiltration' point of view).
Let me inform my friends that the 'Battle in J&K' is being fought on a very different level and for the very survival of our nation. This kind of battle cannot be fought as per 'Geneva Conventions'. The values of democracy can't and shouldn't be applied to war with terrorists, whose aim is to see the flag of Islam fly atop every household in the world. And these 'Human Rights' advocates, please excuse me. You sit in your drawing room, take the maximum benefit from the International bodies and plan how you can get the next free crumb. (I don't usually use such language but what is happening in J&K can never be fully appreciated by people who don't know the 'facts of the ground').
I don't have time to explain here the Grand Design of Saudi Arabian theory of 'Darul Islam', 'Darul Harb' and 'Darul Aman'. You can then understand the seriousness of the problem and increase in Muslim fundamentalism.
I can also advise those who are interested in 'Military History', please read how the insurgency was controlled in Malaysia by the Britishers in the 1950s. Incidently, control of the Malysian insurgency was by the most violent means. Violence that is more gruesome than what the insurgent can throw at you. Unfortunately this is the language that the 'Jehadi' elements understand worldwide. (In whichever city the Hindus have massacred Muslims with greater hatred during communal riots, those places have remained violence free: Meerut, Moradabad, Mumbai)
My only question to my friends is "What answer do you give to the other soldiers of the Paltan when they ask for revenge?". Do we quote the Constitution of India, Geneva Convension, National Human Rights Manuel or Amnesty International Rules? We should be proud of an officer class that leads from the front and delivers. I am sure a young officer would have led this forey into POK, across the LOC and got those Paki heads. It is a necessity to do this otherwise these Jehadis will be roaming the steets of New Delhi, if they are already not doing. Do you know the motivation level of these persons and can you imagine the kind of atrocities they are capable of on a captured or wounded Indian Army soldier? Most of these Jehadis are the product of these 'Madarsas' which teach them that if you die while fighting for the 'Cause' you would go to Heaven and Allah will give you 80 'Hoors' (Miss Universes) and 'Pani-e-Zam Zam'. How do you deal with these guys?
The avarage Kashmiri has been used by everybody for all these years. His condition has not improved a bit and the blame lies on everybody. India should be lucky to come out from this mess with lesser bloodshed. Our survival as a nation depends on this.
I know tit for tat is not applicable and agree with what Gandhiji said :Applying Tit for tat will make the whole world blind.
But J&K and LOC is different.
Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN
Having served in the INFANTRY (The Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry) for 21 years ( 9 years in J&K on the IB/LOC), I fully endirse the action taken by the soldiers of the JAT paltan. In fact I retired in Aug 2001 and my last place of posting was KUPWARA (Hottest spot from 'Infiltration' point of view).
Let me inform my friends that the 'Battle in J&K' is being fought on a very different level and for the very survival of our nation. This kind of battle cannot be fought as per 'Geneva Conventions'. The values of democracy can't and shouldn't be applied to war with terrorists, whose aim is to see the flag of Islam fly atop every household in the world. And these 'Human Rights' advocates, please excuse me. You sit in your drawing room, take the maximum benefit from the International bodies and plan how you can get the next free crumb. (I don't usually use such language but what is happening in J&K can never be fully appreciated by people who don't know the 'facts of the ground').
I don't have time to explain here the Grand Design of Saudi Arabian theory of 'Darul Islam', 'Darul Harb' and 'Darul Aman'. You can then understand the seriousness of the problem and increase in Muslim fundamentalism.
I can also advise those who are interested in 'Military History', please read how the insurgency was controlled in Malaysia by the Britishers in the 1950s. Incidently, control of the Malysian insurgency was by the most violent means. Violence that is more gruesome than what the insurgent can throw at you. Unfortunately this is the language that the 'Jehadi' elements understand worldwide. (In whichever city the Hindus have massacred Muslims with greater hatred during communal riots, those places have remained violence free: Meerut, Moradabad, Mumbai)
My only question to my friends is "What answer do you give to the other soldiers of the Paltan when they ask for revenge?". Do we quote the Constitution of India, Geneva Convension, National Human Rights Manuel or Amnesty International Rules? We should be proud of an officer class that leads from the front and delivers. I am sure a young officer would have led this forey into POK, across the LOC and got those Paki heads. It is a necessity to do this otherwise these Jehadis will be roaming the steets of New Delhi, if they are already not doing. Do you know the motivation level of these persons and can you imagine the kind of atrocities they are capable of on a captured or wounded Indian Army soldier? Most of these Jehadis are the product of these 'Madarsas' which teach them that if you die while fighting for the 'Cause' you would go to Heaven and Allah will give you 80 'Hoors' (Miss Universes) and 'Pani-e-Zam Zam'. How do you deal with these guys?
The avarage Kashmiri has been used by everybody for all these years. His condition has not improved a bit and the blame lies on everybody. India should be lucky to come out from this mess with lesser bloodshed. Our survival as a nation depends on this.
I know tit for tat is not applicable and agree with what Gandhiji said :Applying Tit for tat will make the whole world blind.
But J&K and LOC is different.
Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN
A
abhishek
Guest
I think there are no rules in wars specially when you are fighting against brainwashed low IQ beasts.What our soldiers did was perhaps right ,got one for two, a sweet ol´ way to get the message across.
As one of my friends once commented it is only and only stick which makes muslim behave and stick and deception for chinese.Faster indian mandarins understands this better it is for our nation.
As one of my friends once commented it is only and only stick which makes muslim behave and stick and deception for chinese.Faster indian mandarins understands this better it is for our nation.
S
sansanwalamit
Guest
I also got a very bad taste by the way this article was written, I do not like soldiers being addressed as "jat" while carrying on their duties as a is first a soldier then a Jat.......the writer could have used our "Jawas",
anyone who wrote this should not be wirting articles at all, the news is sad and does show how scary the situation can be .......Pakistanis are out right horrible and they should be served worst. But the Indian reporters should abstain from giving news a communal taste whether positive or negative
anyone who wrote this should not be wirting articles at all, the news is sad and does show how scary the situation can be .......Pakistanis are out right horrible and they should be served worst. But the Indian reporters should abstain from giving news a communal taste whether positive or negative
Dear Amit,
It is for your information that it is common for the Indian Press as also for the Defence Public Relation Officers (PROs) to use the name of the 'Regiment' and address the Jawans of that regiment by their name. For eg, it is common to call the Jawans of Punjab Regiment as 'Punjabis' even though their might be Dogras serving in that 'Punjab Paltan'. It is very much appropriate to refer to the Jawan as 'Gorkha', 'Bihari', 'Maratha', 'Rajputs',
'Gharwali' or 'Jat'.
Even an officer who may be from Tamil Nadu and be a Brahmin or any one else is always refered to as JAT Officer by others. This is so because an officer is supposed to represent and obtain the identity of the 'Regiment' he has been commissioned to.
Jawan is a generic term and used in a more general manner, say when the PM is addressing the nation or a civil official is addressing or refering to the Indian Army Soldier.
In above case the 'Paltan' happened to be from the JAT Regiment and the reporter rightly refered to the Jawans of this 'Paltan' as JATS. In fact major portion for the article must have been given to the reporter by a PRO, as apress release. May be I have clarified the issue.
Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN
(This is the war cry of the JAT Regiment)
It is for your information that it is common for the Indian Press as also for the Defence Public Relation Officers (PROs) to use the name of the 'Regiment' and address the Jawans of that regiment by their name. For eg, it is common to call the Jawans of Punjab Regiment as 'Punjabis' even though their might be Dogras serving in that 'Punjab Paltan'. It is very much appropriate to refer to the Jawan as 'Gorkha', 'Bihari', 'Maratha', 'Rajputs',
'Gharwali' or 'Jat'.
Even an officer who may be from Tamil Nadu and be a Brahmin or any one else is always refered to as JAT Officer by others. This is so because an officer is supposed to represent and obtain the identity of the 'Regiment' he has been commissioned to.
Jawan is a generic term and used in a more general manner, say when the PM is addressing the nation or a civil official is addressing or refering to the Indian Army Soldier.
In above case the 'Paltan' happened to be from the JAT Regiment and the reporter rightly refered to the Jawans of this 'Paltan' as JATS. In fact major portion for the article must have been given to the reporter by a PRO, as apress release. May be I have clarified the issue.
Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN
(This is the war cry of the JAT Regiment)
Dear Col Malik,
Thanks for your views and experience on the subject. I value your experience and knowledge of the events in the area. I was fortunate to serve in the same sector for a full three year tenure during the time when insurgency was at its peak. They inflicted one casualty on us and we raided their post and gave them 16 back. But beheading a dead body is an act of cruelty and should not be encouraged in any form. Think of these same soldiers coming back and settling down in society. Don't you have daily crimes in our neighborhood. Endorsement of such acts will only give legitimacy to cruelty.
I was fortunate to conduct a very successful civic action program in that area against all kind of threats to the villagers of Kalaruch and Lashtial villages. The impact was that the villagers fought with foreighn terrorist and informed the formation headquarters that they were trying to blow up our vehicle because of the setback they sufferred due to successful conduct of the civic action program. This information led to further success of our bn in operations.
Beheading the head of a dead body is unethical, and if we endorse such acts we are only making our own soldiers cruel, which is not in their best interests.
I personally endorse the reply of killing 9 of enemy's soldiers but I do not endorse the beheading a deadbody. These are my personal views and I stand by them. Every one has a right to disagree with me.
Thanks for your views and experience on the subject. I value your experience and knowledge of the events in the area. I was fortunate to serve in the same sector for a full three year tenure during the time when insurgency was at its peak. They inflicted one casualty on us and we raided their post and gave them 16 back. But beheading a dead body is an act of cruelty and should not be encouraged in any form. Think of these same soldiers coming back and settling down in society. Don't you have daily crimes in our neighborhood. Endorsement of such acts will only give legitimacy to cruelty.
I was fortunate to conduct a very successful civic action program in that area against all kind of threats to the villagers of Kalaruch and Lashtial villages. The impact was that the villagers fought with foreighn terrorist and informed the formation headquarters that they were trying to blow up our vehicle because of the setback they sufferred due to successful conduct of the civic action program. This information led to further success of our bn in operations.
Beheading the head of a dead body is unethical, and if we endorse such acts we are only making our own soldiers cruel, which is not in their best interests.
I personally endorse the reply of killing 9 of enemy's soldiers but I do not endorse the beheading a deadbody. These are my personal views and I stand by them. Every one has a right to disagree with me.
Dear Colonel Tevathia Sir,
I respect your views but don't agree with them completely for the simple reason that 'Desperate situations need Desperate measures'. A small example comes to my mind of Gen Thimmaiya, when he was in command of a Kumaon Bn (I think the 4th) in the Arakans in the II World War. One of the companies was a pure JAT Company and the health of troops had suffered a lot because of non-availability of Milk and Ghee in the jungles of Burma. The JAT troops were pure vegetarian and they would never eat meat, which was in abundance. The Amarican were by then sending food-aid to the British Indian Army and there were tablets of chicken soup which could provide the much needed calories to the JATS. Gen Thimmaiya used to sit on his camp cot and sip chicken soup in front of the senior Subedar. One day he offered the same to him. The subedar asked him "Meat ka to nahi hai Sahab". The Gen said "Nahi Sahab, American soup hai aur koi meat veat nahi hai". The troops started having this soup regularly and their condition improved. Desperate situation, desperate measure. And for what? One single word which we learnt from seniors like you:MORALE.
Sir, things have changed in J&K and no amount of 'Civic Action' has helped the ground situation. It remains worse than before. The Kashmiri's have become smarter and they share the same information with the security forces and the terrorists. How terrorism has become a business venture and lucrative one at that, I shall touch upon some other time. This terrorism is also more violent and gruesome. The worst sufferers are the ex-servicemen of my regiment (JAK LI). I have been to about 100 villages in the Kupwara District (Lolab VAlley included) as most of our ex-servicemen are located there. They are suspected by the security forces, the militants and the villagers.
Infantry Soldiers who have braved the insurgency all over the country, including beheading (a rarest of the rare case once in 5 years) settle down quietly in the civil stream. However, it is mostly those who have spent their life time 'contracting', 'supplying' and 'fixing' that end up bringing the rot to society, a society that is already corrupted. Th news letters of the Adjutant General's Branch gives out the state of discipline regularly. Infantry soldiers remain the most disciplined.
Before I finish I just remembered an incident That took place in North East where a Rajputana Rifles Paltan had just finished induction training at the Counter Insurgency School. The Paltan was to give a presentation after the training and they had put up a banner on stage which summed up what is actually required today in J&K. The banner read thus: "CATCH THEM BY THEIR B**** AND THE HEARTS AND MINDS WILL FALL INTO THEIR PLACES"
Regards,
Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN
Lt Col
I respect your views but don't agree with them completely for the simple reason that 'Desperate situations need Desperate measures'. A small example comes to my mind of Gen Thimmaiya, when he was in command of a Kumaon Bn (I think the 4th) in the Arakans in the II World War. One of the companies was a pure JAT Company and the health of troops had suffered a lot because of non-availability of Milk and Ghee in the jungles of Burma. The JAT troops were pure vegetarian and they would never eat meat, which was in abundance. The Amarican were by then sending food-aid to the British Indian Army and there were tablets of chicken soup which could provide the much needed calories to the JATS. Gen Thimmaiya used to sit on his camp cot and sip chicken soup in front of the senior Subedar. One day he offered the same to him. The subedar asked him "Meat ka to nahi hai Sahab". The Gen said "Nahi Sahab, American soup hai aur koi meat veat nahi hai". The troops started having this soup regularly and their condition improved. Desperate situation, desperate measure. And for what? One single word which we learnt from seniors like you:MORALE.
Sir, things have changed in J&K and no amount of 'Civic Action' has helped the ground situation. It remains worse than before. The Kashmiri's have become smarter and they share the same information with the security forces and the terrorists. How terrorism has become a business venture and lucrative one at that, I shall touch upon some other time. This terrorism is also more violent and gruesome. The worst sufferers are the ex-servicemen of my regiment (JAK LI). I have been to about 100 villages in the Kupwara District (Lolab VAlley included) as most of our ex-servicemen are located there. They are suspected by the security forces, the militants and the villagers.
Infantry Soldiers who have braved the insurgency all over the country, including beheading (a rarest of the rare case once in 5 years) settle down quietly in the civil stream. However, it is mostly those who have spent their life time 'contracting', 'supplying' and 'fixing' that end up bringing the rot to society, a society that is already corrupted. Th news letters of the Adjutant General's Branch gives out the state of discipline regularly. Infantry soldiers remain the most disciplined.
Before I finish I just remembered an incident That took place in North East where a Rajputana Rifles Paltan had just finished induction training at the Counter Insurgency School. The Paltan was to give a presentation after the training and they had put up a banner on stage which summed up what is actually required today in J&K. The banner read thus: "CATCH THEM BY THEIR B**** AND THE HEARTS AND MINDS WILL FALL INTO THEIR PLACES"
Regards,
Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN
Lt Col
Chopping off heads is not really is measure which can act as deterrence and terrify the enemy. It can fuel the revenge from the other side as well. It is not known whether the soldiers in action did it as revenge as they saw their colleague mutilated so mercilessly or their bosses wanted them do it. First one is more plausible as this at best can be justified by "because they did it to us". However I don't see any point in Indian forces having this as a policy (a measure) to combat J&K terrorist who are the worst creature, not guided by disciplined superiors or guided by ethics in their actions. It can only motivate them (and let their bosses exploit them by saying "Look what Indian do to us"). Like it happened to them for we got 2 head for 1 because they did it first.
So it can best be justified by revenge at a personal level and not as policy to terrify them to abstain from such actions however bad they are.
I think it would have been much better if they have killed 20 instead on 10 and beheaded none.
So it can best be justified by revenge at a personal level and not as policy to terrify them to abstain from such actions however bad they are.
I think it would have been much better if they have killed 20 instead on 10 and beheaded none.
S
sansanwalamit
Guest
Dear Col. Malik,
Thank you for throwing light on the fact, well I did not have any idea about this and from now on I would not get the bad taste after reading such addresses from now on.Thank you.
Thank you for throwing light on the fact, well I did not have any idea about this and from now on I would not get the bad taste after reading such addresses from now on.Thank you.
S
samu42
Guest
Going by the discussion and views of several contributors, an ordinary person will be in total agreement with Col. JS Malik. Our enemies should have fear and think twice before venturing into uncivilised acts. Col. Tavathia, could you please tell how even Bangla Deshi’s (BDR) can kill Indian Jawans and get Scot free? Where was the civility and rules of game when some time back Pakistani returned our soldiers without their private organs and vital body parts? Did world came to our help, except lip service by a counted few? We all like peace and harmony, but it is never one sided.
We are like crying baby. We come to US every now and then to complain about the Pakis thinking that Uncle Sam is just willing to take action in our favor. Come on, it is more than half a century of independence from UK, but our minds are still in captivity. Making speeches at world platform can make ground for action, but ultimately we have to fight for our security and survival. One earns respect by actions and not chatting.
The very edifice of democracy and symbol of India’s sovereignty was attacked and we could do nothing! Do we deserve to be called as a (super)power? The man who refused to salute (abstaining) our visiting PM to Lahore and was the chief architect of Kargil was given a rousing reception when he visited Agra. Did peace returned to the sub-continent? No. Than what is the solution?
The only solution is decapitating the Pakis army if we could dare! They have tasted blood and understand no other language. It is not that only we wish to get rid of them, all Pakistani civilians wish the same. And the world as a whole has similar views except few dummies. Pakistani wish to live in peace and prosperity, but at present only the one in uniform get the benefits at the cost of common man. Let us learn from our mistake and not repeat them for our peril!!
We are like crying baby. We come to US every now and then to complain about the Pakis thinking that Uncle Sam is just willing to take action in our favor. Come on, it is more than half a century of independence from UK, but our minds are still in captivity. Making speeches at world platform can make ground for action, but ultimately we have to fight for our security and survival. One earns respect by actions and not chatting.
The very edifice of democracy and symbol of India’s sovereignty was attacked and we could do nothing! Do we deserve to be called as a (super)power? The man who refused to salute (abstaining) our visiting PM to Lahore and was the chief architect of Kargil was given a rousing reception when he visited Agra. Did peace returned to the sub-continent? No. Than what is the solution?
The only solution is decapitating the Pakis army if we could dare! They have tasted blood and understand no other language. It is not that only we wish to get rid of them, all Pakistani civilians wish the same. And the world as a whole has similar views except few dummies. Pakistani wish to live in peace and prosperity, but at present only the one in uniform get the benefits at the cost of common man. Let us learn from our mistake and not repeat them for our peril!!
100 % right sir,
Samunder Singh (Oct 04, 2003 01:14 p.m.):
We are like crying baby. We come to US every now and then to complain about the Pakis thinking that Uncle Sam is just willing to take action in our favor. Come on, it is more than half a century of independence from UK, but our minds are still in captivity. Making speeches at world platform can make ground for action, but ultimately we have to fight for our security and survival. One earns respect by actions and not chatting.
I understand the passion some people may have about the cruelty of Pakistani soldiers. Well, I have my own views on the subject and stand by them. Where as my example may not be in true league of the subject in discussion, but surely we don't tell our kins to steal some one else's property if we have a theft and even know the thief.
All of us have our own views. Probably I see the world a little differently. I am not the one who has not seen the action in field. To get success in war, one has to maintain a very well disciplined force. Allowing choping the head of dead bodies or enemy soldiers does not fall in the definition of discipline. Enemy will instigate you. It is you who has to see as to what you need to do to counter that situation. In first place one must look into the circumstances under which enemy was able to do to our soldiers what he did. Were we unprepared for the situation or we were surprised? In both cases we need to look around our own areas. There is a lot one can argue, but I firmly believe that chopping of the head of dead bodies does not fall in to soldierly acts. As one contributor has written, I would appreciate killing of 20 to 30 enemy soldiers but would not appreciate chopping of the head of a dead body. Once again, these are my views and you have right to disagree.
All of us have our own views. Probably I see the world a little differently. I am not the one who has not seen the action in field. To get success in war, one has to maintain a very well disciplined force. Allowing choping the head of dead bodies or enemy soldiers does not fall in the definition of discipline. Enemy will instigate you. It is you who has to see as to what you need to do to counter that situation. In first place one must look into the circumstances under which enemy was able to do to our soldiers what he did. Were we unprepared for the situation or we were surprised? In both cases we need to look around our own areas. There is a lot one can argue, but I firmly believe that chopping of the head of dead bodies does not fall in to soldierly acts. As one contributor has written, I would appreciate killing of 20 to 30 enemy soldiers but would not appreciate chopping of the head of a dead body. Once again, these are my views and you have right to disagree.
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