Caste system in India: is it disappearing?

[steotia]

I recently watched a documentary about the caste system in India and got into a discussion with my husband (also a Jat btw but unlike me, not just born but also bred in India).
I thought it would be interesting to find out the views of fellow Jats about this subject, especially those of you living in India (who are perhaps more directly confronted with this issue).

My personal conclusion is that despite all modernization and westernization of Indian society (or even Indians living abroad), there will always be a caste system. The only factor that may be slowly changing this ancient system is the fact that the younger generations, who are more educated and more open-minded, have a different attitude towards it. Even though people of all castes are mixing together socially nowadays, it does not mean that the caste system has ceased to exist. The best example is marriage within castes. If there is no such thing as the caste system, then there would not be marriage advertisements and directories of Indians with their castes specifically stated, and there would not be the emphasis on marrying someone in the same caste.
But my contention is that people of the same caste sticking together is normal, it just happens. And you have a certain pride that goes along with it too. Like a certain tradition that you want to keep going. It's the same as when you join an association of the same ethnicity cos you want to keep the culture together; you want to keep the culture alive. As with any other traditions, it depends strongly on the parent’s teachings for the traditions to survive. Ultimately, it depends on the upcoming generations to carry on the tradition and if they do not believe in it, will the great walls of the caste system soon be crumbling down ???

But I would be a hypocrite if I would not admit to you that despite all my education and having been brought up in the west, I would still freak out if one day my son would come home and announce that he will be marrying someone from SC (but well, I have time on my side; my son probably will not be contemplating marriage for at least 25 more years, give or take a few, so I still have all these years to work on my enlightenment!).

 

[pscil]

Caste has 2 meanings one is the textual by which the brahimins define themselves as the most superior and the contextual which is the actual by which superiority is determined by people holding the economic and social power. In the contextual tradition the brahims have been the cooks to the Jats; while in theory they claim superiority as the preminent caste.

The biggest problem is that the Jats have never accepted the caste system cooked up by the brahims while the other castes accepted it. This is the main bone of contention and what all the fight has been about.

Jats have always been outside the caste system that is thereason why swami dayanand said that Jats are the only ones who can create a revolution in the Indian society. So let us gather our strenghth and establish our real position in society

 

[samarkadian]

I recently watched a documentary about the caste system in India and got into a discussion with my husband (also a Jat btw but unlike me, not just born but also bred in India).
I thought it would be interesting to find out the views of fellow Jats about this subject, especially those of you living in India (who are perhaps more directly confronted with this issue).

My personal conclusion is that despite all modernization and westernization of Indian society (or even Indians living abroad), there will always be a caste system. The only factor that may be slowly changing this ancient system is the fact that the younger generations, who are more educated and more open-minded, have a different attitude towards it. Even though people of all castes are mixing together socially nowadays, it does not mean that the caste system has ceased to exist. The best example is marriage within castes. If there is no such thing as the caste system, then there would not be marriage advertisements and directories of Indians with their castes specifically stated, and there would not be the emphasis on marrying someone in the same caste.
But my contention is that people of the same caste sticking together is normal, it just happens. And you have a certain pride that goes along with it too. Like a certain tradition that you want to keep going. It's the same as when you join an association of the same ethnicity cos you want to keep the culture together; you want to keep the culture alive. As with any other traditions, it depends strongly on the parent’s teachings for the traditions to survive. Ultimately, it depends on the upcoming generations to carry on the tradition and if they do not believe in it, will the great walls of the caste system soon be crumbling down ???

But I would be a hypocrite if I would not admit to you that despite all my education and having been brought up in the west, I would still freak out if one day my son would come home and announce that he will be marrying someone from SC (but well, I have time on my side; my son probably will not be contemplating marriage for at least 25 more years, give or take a few, so I still have all these years to work on my enlightenment!).

Seema, Nice topic to discuss.Westernization or modernization or any other name you give to present day shrinking of world,caste system doesnt seem to dissolve.Best or worst, it has come in to genetics now.In vedic system caste were based on division of work or profession i.e Vranasharma which is the best system I believe.Later on it was and is abused, misused or used whatever you say.Nowadays a Jat or brahaman or baniya would go in any kind of profession but still would be identified acc to whom they are born.Its a sense of identity with which one is born in Indian scene. Like Amartya Sen says in his book Identity and Violence,' we have so many identities in single person i'e educated, vegetarian, doctor, farmer, leftist, capatilist and so on, caste too is a part of identity and since it is associated with birth.Its hard to consider its dilution provided people attain enlightenment, which totally is personal issue.

As far as we jats are considered, warrior caste and a special pride associated being leaders, providers and protectors of society, attachment is highest compared to others.Many positive characters of a Jat's personality are rare in common and that y people look up to us.A lot of Western intellectuals have done interesting research over evolution of the race.Being Jat doesn't mean looking others inferior rather considering oneself in high esteem and maintaining that level for which we had placed at this strata.That y you will freak out about marriage of your son.Since you are knowing about Jats, who knows in coming times you will become a hardcore Jat.lol

Like Parvir Sir mentioned there is always time and scope for the acceptance of jats in society , all we need is some visionary,passionate and doggedly determined youth.

 

[asuhag]

Wow!

By far the most interesting of topics in recent days and some of the best replies/posts to it so far. I hope the quality on this thread remains like this... I'm looking forward to more!

Kudos to all of you!

Regards,
-Ashish

 

[shweta123]

"All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World" - So speaks your signature Samar and so is your enlightening post !


Well, as Seema ji rightly said, it happens ! I also think that a sort of unconcious and self imbibed feeling of bonding with the people of our caste just happens and we often cant come out at a specific 'why' behind it.


Caste System in India is surely not disappearing, though its shape is changing drastically. As Samar pointed out, the ancient caste system was technically carved out but with the course of time, this logical system was misused, abused and lost its original significance and even got deformed and rotten in many places, but the common masses fell prey and are still stuck in the system in a way or the other. This system was meant to be a social system to facilitate a categorisation of people based on the type of work they do, which was meant to be hierarchical. All those underlying ideas behind the system vanished but the system survived and is having a tight hold on the masses till now.


We dont quite look down at people of other castes, we do socialise with them normally, we do work with them in all good spirits and without any kind of bias when we are into our professional attire, but somewhere in our hearts, at some point of time, we feel as if we are carrying a line that demarcates us in some manner and its that dividing line which is not easy to keep aside completely.

Moreover, it has been my personal experience that people of different castes share peculiar kind of virtues, traits, behavioural charactersiatics etc, which are specific to their castes ! Dont know how true is this but I felt this way many a times whenever I pondered thoughts over the issue.

 

[pscil]

Jats are the founder of the panchayat system the best democratic institution in ancient India. Due to the democratic nature of the Jats they were not ready to accept the imperialistic ambitions of the Muslims like Akbar and hence fought with them for 1000 years before finally defeating the mughals. This is the Jats nature who can never be the stool for somebody else, unlike the other castes that accepted and even married their daughters with the mughals.A JAT is very independent by nature and this is the reason why we are bad mouthed by the other castes.

Caste was initially based on karma therefore a Brahmin could be a shudra if his karmas were low in nature. This beautiful classification got distorted and caste became hereditary and lost its mobility due to vested interests who wanted to perpetuate themselves. This is the reason the Jats never accepted the caste system based on hereditary.

 

[skadian123]

Seema,

The thread posted by you has highlighted in very simple terms the point/s that most of us in the urban setting in India and maybe in the west ponder upon and which is, our place in society.

There is a very thin line of differentiation between caste and race at least in today's context. Jats are a race while kshatriya or bhumihar is a caste (I may please be corrected by members holding distinction in history). However in our case, we Jats are a race which has for time immemorial, donned the mantle of either a warrior or a farmer.

Needless to say, all races/castes/communties have cultures and traditions which are unique to them in some way or the other. In comparison to other communities, we are the latest entrants in the urban setting, migrating from villages and tiny hamlets with our main vocation having been farming. With us we brought and are still following the virtues present in ruralfolk (which I am sure are true even in the rural west), virtues like straightforwardness, honesty, community work, living and collective decision-making. These entrants were the people who strongly believed in the unwritten code of 'All for one and one for all'.

As you have pointed out rightly, because of sharing of work and living spaces with other communties, the concept of race/caste has started getting blurred though at the core, our identity is very close to our hearts.

As far as the future scenario is concerned, what can be foreseen is that we will adapt and assimilate quite a few things from the cultures of other races with whom we share space, but in a lighter vein, though true, 'Once a Jat always a Jat'.

 

[rkumar]

anything written on mind is like a piece of software which is extremely difficult to erase completely as there are too many programmers and too many hard disks.... Caste system or for that matter any system is here to stay for ever with some varaitions.

RK^2

 

[steotia]

Since you are knowing about Jats, who knows in coming times you will become a hardcore Jat.lol

Hi Samar,
This jatni went to back to the homeland to get herself a "pukka jataan ka chhora"
Believe you me, I am very hardcore when it comes to being a Jat; its part of my identity.
As Mr. Kadian rightly pointed out "Once a Jat, always a Jat"

 

[steotia]

Well, as Seema ji rightly said, it happens !

Hi Shweta,
Please feel free to loose the "ji"! Just Seema will do nicely!
(Unless the "ji" is a compulsory form of decorum to be used on this forum? I apologise for not being very knowledgeable about the social intricacies used on indian forums)

We dont quite look down at people of other castes, we do socialise with them normally, we do work with them in all good spirits and without any kind of bias when we are into our professional attire, but somewhere in our hearts, at some point of time, we feel as if we are carrying a line that demarcates us in some manner and its that dividing line which is not easy to keep aside completely.

My feelings exactly! I am glad I don't have to feel guilty about it anymore.
Seema

 

[samarkadian]

Jats are the founder of the panchayat system the best democratic institution in ancient India. Due to the democratic nature of the Jats

I do agree Parvir Sir about Panchayats system's democracy.This system in the contemporary times has been much distorted with fanatic 'Khap and Sarv-Khap Panchyats'.Panchyats in a village is a nice administrative idea. 'Khap-Panchyats' never touched the issue of gender ratio, increasing showoffs in marriages, rather than declaring couples brothers and sisters.Neither they seem to guide over positive leadership nor producing an efficient leader.

Need of the hour for Jats, What I feel, is establishing themselves as strong leader in all senses from academic to social arenas without loosing that positive jatish-charm.Somehow that negative tag sticked on our back is due to negative- moladism, which is ofcourse not a thing to feel proud of.

Change, I hope will happen in positive way but the point to consider here is that we are in comfort zone socialy.We do not feel, forsee any big challange to shed our comfort-zone. We dont have any common roof in the name of tradition or religion like Sikhs or muslims.Not a particular language.Even traditional songs,festive spirits is going with granny's generation.So collecting all of us under one roof is a big issue.Seema,There I feel sometime of born-jats turning in to baniyas/punjabi(mentally-professionaly), some may say its progress but i wud say its a downward spiral in to dark.Progress with diluting side effects really worry me many times.

Any of you see or predict or propose Reniassance in the community?
I'll be the first one to join.

 

[shailendra]

Education and Learning to live and let live!

Education goes a long way in eradicating lot's of evils in the society!

If you look around you shall see that the caste-system while ingrained into the Hindu (and Indian) mind set, is thankfully almost grayed out in this new corporate and intellectual strata of our great sub-continent (and in other foreign countries wherever Indians are present); a logical conclusion for a society eager to grow up and move on, wanting to indulge in more meaningful pursuits than worry about what caste my fellow colleague was born into....

But having said that one just needs to move down a little bit from that fast paced 21st century dynamic strata and it is easy to see that yes, this new Indian society is also totally saturated with the worst form of this system too!

A (caste) system while makes a lot of sense when you talk about roots and culture, unfortunately lack of education (hence opportunities, or the lack of them) has easily made it into a huge monster too (look at the whole mandal issue, the recent Gujjar uprisings etc. etc) a scene full of frustration and that of a mob-instinct... and one need not even look too far but simply squint at our own Jatland where identifying with a caste (the JATS) brings with it a big sense of pride and honor, and identity....so how can anything be wrong with that???

WELL!...It becomes wrong and a problem if and when we decide to take this pride and honor to the streets and forget the bigger picture; the fact that we are afterall Indians the foremost!

So do what you would with this caste-system; as the pride, honor, identity and communalism, segregation, evil of the society all are present just below the surface!

 

[rohittewatia]

Whatever people may say, still a majority of caste things match the traits of their people. I mean some castes are more aggressive, some castes are much more smarter in terms of finances, some are more business minded. That's the way they have been defined and moreover it justifies these things.

The best thing would be remove the reservation system in india(which won't happen ofcourse)...or else why do people want to have equality when they themselves don't want it.

 

[shailendra]

Whatever people may say, still a majority of caste things match the traits of their people. I mean some castes are more aggressive, some castes are much more smarter in terms of finances, some are more business minded. That's the way they have been defined and moreover it justifies these things..

...All it justifies is our basic mentality of generalization and more importantly- easily underscores the main underlying purpose of this very discussion.

Frankly now, speaking of castes and traits; it has something to do more with pride and prejudice than anything else!
For example being 'business minded' may be considered such a negative trait in the martial castes that it may well be considered a stigma almost!
But it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that these sort of 'traits' are something that are carefully cultivated, and not something you are born with.

 

[amitchhikara]

Whatever people may say, still a majority of caste things match the traits of their people. I mean some castes are more aggressive, some castes are much more smarter in terms of finances, some are more business minded. That's the way they have been defined and moreover it justifies these things.

The best thing would be remove the reservation system in india(which won't happen ofcourse)...or else why do people want to have equality when they themselves don't want it.

I don't think i will quiet agree with this point of view. To say that all JATs are warrior-like brave and can't be as good as a Baniya in finance is utterly wrong. Similarly to say no Baniya can ever be a great warrior, leader or fearless is wrong as well. Caste has nothing to do with such qualities. Education, environment you grow up in and the opportunities you are presented in life go a long way in shaping you as a person.

I do agree with your other point of removing reservation.

 

[pscil]

Thanks Samar for your views and please no "Sir" we are all here trying to brainstorm to move our community forward, so we are all equal partners in this enterprise. We need to have proper branding for our community. We need to establish the USP of the Jats. We need to increase the capital called the Jats both economically and socially. We need to identify our strengths and weakness and also our opportunities and threats. We need to properly invest our resources and increase our return on capital investment. Life is all about branding and capital formation. The economic power gives you the strength to give.

My only grievance is that we move in tangents in these threads, only the poetry of Lord Baryon could match this tangent thinking. Why do we at the drop of a hat start comparing our community with banias or Brahmins. Do we need to define ourselves relative to these communities? We should have our own identity and anything to dilute it will only weaken us, giving opportunities to other communities to marginalize us. This is not acceptable to me. I am an Indian no great shakes but I also have an identity as a Jat, this identity gives my life its meaning. It is the prism through which I view my world. Look how the other communities have strengthened themselves, do you think they give a hoot to the Jats. Why do we then bother about them? Let us not loose focus. When we become strong Jats we automatically become strong Indians, no contradiction in this I suppose. sorry for my brashness but once a Jat always a Jat