Died for/with green card!

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Hello again,
I never thought that calling a mercenary a mercenary is having extreme views about an issue, apart from that I understand Mr. Kalkhunde's view that let our Jat brothers and sisters come in big picture now and anyhow and this is how my understanding goes, that if someone wants to be in big picture even by being a mercenary in a mean republican army like Bush's then why not let him do that, after all he is coming in big picture by that, making his college money, coming in headlines and after all even our Jat community comes in news so what is wrong with that,
But I want to ask just one more thing to all of you who have such views of life betterment and prosperity and support the kinds of Uday, that if they remember a Jat girl notorious as Pamela Bordes. She is infamous enough that I do not have to quote her story, so now she came in headlines too, became rich, could have paid for 10 degrees or could have bought many of our members assets and life savings, had access to all the kind of health care reached from Rohtak and several cantonment areas in India to Europe, got extreme news coverage, I mean changed her life totally.
Thus, what should I think of her, you people tell me that someone hired by a foreign army is not a mercenary, someone fighting in Iraq in similar fashion to the Bosnians in Kashmir had a noble cause behind him. Please wake up, we wouldn’t have even known about him had he survived, he would have become a US citizen would have done everything to make his life better thus what’s special about him , I wonder why do you call him extra-ordinary, if he is a martyr then I am sure that martyrs are crying in heaven. I used Pamela’s analogy just in order to show you that life improvement can be done in many ways, but all the ways cannot be looked up, working for a foreign army and then going on to kill some innocent who people is totally wrong, Pamela would be better then Uday at the least she was not out there to kill, but you know I know she lacked character which we Jats thrive upon, and same I think of someone fighting for a foreign army, it would have been much better if Uday had left US army or refused to go to Iraq, as Iraqis did nothing to him, and he was not their to save humanity we all know that, thus please stop praising him and let us make a new post requesting our brothers and sisters everywhere that we shall not trade our character and virtues for just money. Believe me money is not that big.
One more thing someone who dies for *AIDS* or in accident dies a way more honorable death then someone like Uday, may God bless his soul, but someone who goes out there to unleash hell over innocent people and that too when he is not doing it even for his own country doesn’t meet with my criteria of an honorable death.

*a request to all the members, please refrain from using AIDS or any other illnesses in a derogatory manner, usage of accidents is still ok, but illnesses posses a much more serious and sensitive nature, especially AIDS*.


P.S Soldiers who fought in both the world wars fought for the Queen who was the empress of India then, they also fought against evils like Hitler which is a noble cause in itself, and fighting for queen is better then fighting for Americans even today, as we should notice that Queen and her people did help us Jats a lot in making our identity, by helping Sir Chotturam and liberating us from the web of Baniyas, don’t you all think that we (I mean Jats) owe to some extent to British for our betterment. Please read and give your views on my new post about this issue.
 
A person who is ignorant and stupid does not deserve much attention to his/her advantage. Ignorance and stupidity generally should be ignored.

Amit Sansanwal (Dec 21, 2003 05:01 p.m.):
Hello again,
I never thought that calling a mercenary a mercenary is having extreme views about an issue, apart from that I understand Mr. Kalkhunde's view that let our Jat brothers and sisters come in big picture now and anyhow and this is how my understanding goes, that if someone wants to be in big picture even by being a mercenary in a mean republican army like Bush's then why not let him do that, after all he is coming in big picture by that, making his college money, coming in headlines and after all even our Jat community comes in news so what is wrong with that,
But I want to ask just one more thing to all of you who have such views of life betterment and prosperity and support the kinds of Uday, that if they remember a Jat girl notorious as Pamela Bordes. She is infamous enough that I do not have to quote her story, so now she came in headlines too, became rich, could have paid for 10 degrees or could have bought many of our members assets and life savings, had access to all the kind of health care reached from Rohtak and several cantonment areas in India to Europe, got extreme news coverage, I mean changed her life totally.
Thus, what should I think of her, you people tell me that someone hired by a foreign army is not a mercenary, someone fighting in Iraq in similar fashion to the Bosnians in Kashmir had a noble cause behind him. Please wake up, we wouldn’t have even known about him had he survived, he would have become a US citizen would have done everything to make his life better thus what’s special about him , I wonder why do you call him extra-ordinary, if he is a martyr then I am sure that martyrs are crying in heaven. I used Pamela’s analogy just in order to show you that life improvement can be done in many ways, but all the ways cannot be looked up, working for a foreign army and then going on to kill some innocent who people is totally wrong, Pamela would be better then Uday at the least she was not out there to kill, but you know I know she lacked character which we Jats thrive upon, and same I think of someone fighting for a foreign army, it would have been much better if Uday had left US army or refused to go to Iraq, as Iraqis did nothing to him, and he was not their to save humanity we all know that, thus please stop praising him and let us make a new post requesting our brothers and sisters everywhere that we shall not trade our character and virtues for just money. Believe me money is not that big.
One more thing someone who dies for *AIDS* or in accident dies a way more honorable death then someone like Uday, may God bless his soul, but someone who goes out there to unleash hell over innocent people and that too when he is not doing it even for his own country doesn’t meet with my criteria of an honorable death.

*a request to all the members, please refrain from using AIDS or any other illnesses in a derogatory manner, usage of accidents is still ok, but illnesses posses a much more serious and sensitive nature, especially AIDS*.


P.S Soldiers who fought in both the world wars fought for the Queen who was the empress of India then, they also fought against evils like Hitler which is a noble cause in itself, and fighting for queen is better then fighting for Americans even today, as we should notice that Queen and her people did help us Jats a lot in making our identity, by helping Sir Chotturam and liberating us from the web of Baniyas, don’t you all think that we (I mean Jats) owe to some extent to British for our betterment. Please read and give your views on my new post about this issue.
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Dear All,

Interesting to read divergent views on this sensitive subject. There are arguements on both sides but one for duty wins in my opinion. Udey offered his services and lost his life while performing his duty. Even if it was an ordinary job one can not condemn his actions. God rest his soul in peace and those of us who see him as a sinner probably need to look at it from a different angle. Perhaps Bhagwat Geeta will be a handy reference guide in this case. There are no absolute rights and wrongs in this world. Every thing is decided on the criteria used to classify the particular act. Soldier's job is not to make policy decisions but to follow orders. He bears no personal enimity or grudge and has nothing to gain from killing other than his own life. It is not the act itself which is good or evil but intention behind it and if some one is to be blamed for wrong policies it is the policy makers and not poor factory worker or soldier or ordinary person who has to work for a living. Let us be less judgemental and have some respect for departed soul who was one of us. Think about his family and other people who care about him how would they take the criticism. There are no constructive criticisms and needless to say that people with self respect do care about feelings of others and don't go on trampling on other's feelings just to make a point. Let us try and boost self esteem of all readers on this website which in turn will make them better human being. It is good to be right but it is even better to be nice. Self restraint is a virtue which can be practiced let us see it done on this site for the benefit of every one else.
 
Thank you, Sheorayan uncle for your advice of being nice, I totally agree with you that being nice is a bigger then being wrong or right, and I would try my best to be nice as much as I can.
But your post did leave one question in my mind and I would appreciate if you could help me understand the concept of Karma, as mentioned in the Bhagvad Geeta.
My knowledge of the Geeta is very limited, as I have not read it yet, but with the help of other media and elders like you I do get to taste some nectar out of it.
I firmly believe that Karma is the biggest virtue and nothing is beyond Karma, and we all should stick with our job and do it in our assigned time.
But I want to know about the relationship between Karma and Dharma (principles, morals and values).
What I do not understand is that how would I know whether my Karma is in right direction or not, is there any universal scale of Dharma present in the world, and if Karma is what anyone should care for then what about a person like Pamela Bordes, Hitler, Bush, Laden, Stalin, Aurengzeb, and the list goes on,
As I know of them, these people did what they thought as there Karma, and most of us think of there Karma clashing with moralistic views of Dharma,
Thus do these people get exonerated by the concept of Karma.
And I am very sorry for calling someone a sinner without knowing them, I should have thought twice before using such a heavy word.
 
Dear Amit,

Thanks for the sincere message. You are not alone to have some doubts in life, some time or other we all are faced with doubts. That is when we seek advice some one we trust or listen to our conscience. Don't claim to know too much about Geeta myself but whenever I feel negative vibes that is where to go and it helps put things in perspective. It is the closest thing to parental advice which we all try and give to our children. To be specific about Theory of Karma there is one full chapter(ch.3) devoted to it and my advice would be for every one to read it a few times, understand and analyse it. From my limited understanding I can say that by definition "Karma of any kind is a cause which produces it's own effects. Therefore to understand the nature of Karma we must know the cause behind the Karma as to why we do certain things. All Karma born out of selfish desires have the effect of binding us to the result that is where most people are caught in the clutches of Maaya. Because we want some thing for ourselves and try to achieve it through our Karma but the desire itself is the cause of bondage and Karma alone can not free us from the stronghold of desires. What Geeta teaches us is to do Karma not for our selfish aims but for greater good of all human being and the creation of God (i.e. if you believe in one). That will lead us to freedom from tyranny of desires and ultimate peace and Moksha. In one line we can say that true Karmayogi is the one "who sees action in inaction and inaction in action" As far as Dharma is concerned it is not far from Karma for a Karmayogi the action itself is his Dharma. In a simplistic statement one can say that to live according to laws of society,nature,God is Dharma and to live outside those laws is Adharma. The problem comes when people try and make there own laws to justify their selfish actions (history is witness of this). Just ask your conscious (god in you) and you will have no difficulty in understanding what is Dharma and what is not. Not many of us have that desire or drive to do it to-day and the effect is seen every where. Hope it raises more questions than it answers because then only can one progress spiritually, by asking questions and getting right answers otherwise it is superstition and root of a lot of evil to-day. Even educated people have not escaped it. Blind faith is not Dharma but faith which can answer all your question to your satisfaction in a rational way will lead you to path of Dharma like it has done to others like Gautam Budha. Don't be afraid to ask yourself questions and seek truth in whatever you do. Ultimate truth being just one that we all are part of the same thing and all differences are transient. Our parents used to say in simple language that "Your actions should earn you blessings and not curses" It is a tall order in to-day's society but the principal is as true to-day as it was 5000 years ago. If you can not be strong enough to earn blessings atleast don't be so weak as to earn curses from others because there is God in each one of us.
 
Died as an honorable soldier with purple heart and bronze star...

Dear Sujata and Vivek,
Thanks for writing in detail. I hope our members will understand the subject much better. Thanks for your contribution. Very well written.




Sujata (Dec 19, 2003 07:01 p.m.):
I think Uday’s sacrifice encompasses many hidden issues we may never have touched upon, including morality, patriotism, social conscience, including ignorance and pure denial! But it has indeed been a good awakening for a few. I do not believe even ALL Americans were in favor of the war. I was myself against it because of the 3 reasons:

The war was unprovoked;
There has never been preemptive strike in the past;
The UN was not involved…

But that has no relevance to Uday’s sacrifice? He did what he was asked to do. We are simply discussing the criticism bestowed to him posthumously, especially by a few who don’t even know what patriotism means. No one is debating the war. Having said that I do feel like highlighting a few things stated in various posts:

“God forbid, if one of these preachers (critical folks of Uday) gets involved in a car accident or plane crashes in North America while on a job, then what should we say? Should we say that a moron left his own beloved India for Western dream and died? What a fool he was! He should have stayed in his own place in India, and he might have been alive today.”

My response: Thank you brother! Finally a “few good men” with integrity and social conscience do exist on our humble mother earth!

“Consider a scenario, US armed forces opens a recruitment center in Delhi, there would be lot’s and lot’s of brave people out there, who would be willing to take the risk for a couple of thousand dollars a months in the face of widespread unemployment. Why can’t they do it, because it would be impossible to justify such a thing on moral ground in modern society?”

My response: Consider a scenario, a US delegation comes to Bangalore, or Hyderabad to recruit “the smart Indian techies” there will be a lots and lots of brilliant techies ready to pack the one suitcase every immigrant comes to the Ellis Island with! Wait…it has already happened……. what did the Indian Govt do? Did the US Govt consider it immoral? Nope! Some IItians were only too thankful for this humble gesture of Bill Clinton, and for the one way ticket to the promise land!

“It would be an exploitation of the sorts – bhade ke sipahee would be too hard to handle.”

My response: Whether it is Bhade ka sipaheee or Bhade ka scientist, doctor or engineer is there any difference? Have you any idea how long the bhade ka “brain drain” has been afloat the US soil? Indians are most successful and desired workforce in any western land, because of those of us who have established ourselves as a bunch of credible, smart, intelligent and hard working people. Asian American students have long been hailed as the brightest kids here; you will find them in the science fairs, geography bees and other intellectually stimulating contests. So I have known of many other “bhade ka brands!”

“It is morally wrong to hire a person who is a citizen of some other country (India) by US for such a cause when that other state (India) has all the responsibilities like security etc for this person.”

My response: Then why did our true patriot Sateynadra Dubey (who never left the Indian soil to better his life) succumb to such pathetic death? Anyone?

“But US is country of immigrants. So they should definitely hire a guy, studying in a US university, in all probability would end up settling in US (citizen). So they should give him citizenship as soon as he joins, so that he would be entitled to state honor in the event he happens to pay ultimate price, rather than giving a special jet ride.”

My response: Wow! What an epiphany! This is where I was trying to draw everyone’s attention to, in the previous posting as to “who shall live.” It was a philosophical metaphor; this group (the honorable one in the American Universities… arguably with a halo around their heads?) sure has all the markings of a state honoree! Yup, in all probability this group will stick around the US soil, but will not be put through the public microscope as Uday has been! Because this group has legitimate right to belong to or study in the US, more than Uday! And because this group is privileged to abandon their homeland in order to better their lives? As if the preaching were already not absurd enough, now we are justifying our stay in the western land huh?

“Indian administration/government on behalf of Indian citizen (and hence Indian citizens) would not make a big heroic thing out of it. You may have noticed that, there was no official comment about it from the government.”

My response: Indian Administration didn’t make any statement about Sateyndra Dubey’s unwarranted death either…err until many thousand people signed a petition…remember? India sends most scientists, doctors and engineers every year than the scientist immigrants from all other nations combined! Why, because they (scientists from their countries) have better living and working conditions in their homeland. Do you hear any murmurs from the Indian Govt?

Finally, here is what everyone should ponder on:

“Let the one among you who is without sin throw the first stone at her.” This proverbial truth should be used as a cornerstone before criticizing anyone for anything. So, for all of you enthusiasts who crave adrenaline rush for patriotism and steadfastly maintain the only definition you have known about patriotism (whether it is staying in your village or your country), let the stark reality rein supreme in your mind. I would strongly urge you all to hold your horses while you are in transition to your destination – that is, until after you have acclaimed that Oxford or Harvard degree, chosen your ideal vocation, settled in life (in India) for good, let magnanimity rule your thoughts! However, if you simply like essay competition on public boards and do not have a genuine insight into your own life’s journey which has just begun, I humbly apologize for any inconvenience… truly, I mean it!

I wanted to once again do the meta-analysis of the term patriot. Yes, it indeed there is a world of difference in working as a civilian and being a soldier! Soldiers are protectors of the nations, and of human lives! They live and die proudly for their country. It is so true, as a civilian you lead a sheltered life; you wake up as per your wish to the tune of your preferred clock, perform the morning routine and head to work or school. At the end of the day you pick up your kids and the dry-cleaning. You come home to a safe and comfortable environment, cook warm meal, help kids with homework, watch the stale TV news you have heard in the car radio during your commute to work. And long before you can read a page or two of a good book, you fall asleep and your day is done! On weekends you buy groceries, cook, clean, wash, gallivant at the fancy malls, visit friends or attend a social gathering, read, write or hop into your run of the mill new Jaguar, go watch a movie. During holidays you exchange gifts, plan excursions and complain about the stale meal offered during your flight to Hawaii, or why it took so long for a flight to arrive! That’s pretty much life of a civilian living in North America…

If you are a “civilian student” you take a few classes, on some evenings you enjoy the fireside chats with faculty members; occasionally visit the library and yeah…the weekend activities with friends are at your disposal, so you leisurely plan your project assignments saving time for visits to the local art museum and who knows -- if your heart fancies you hop into your old Toyota and root for your home team hero at the fraternity sports! In between you spend hours on end detailing your poor cooking skills to your dear parents from the other shore….who are anxiously awaiting your speedy return home. There, your week is done….no your semester is done!

So, the daily mundane life is pretty interesting. You like the control you have over every planned minute of your day. Overall, you live the short or long American dream… life is good! Once in a while you read or hear about strife in your country, the soldiers are dying on the line of control. Your heart aches for their suffering… but you are so far away, all you could do is pray for them. You wish you could be more patriotic… go to the frontline and fight the gorilla war raged against your country by religious fanatics and insurgents. But you are not there… You are really not there…you are in North America… I have no problem agreeing to this term applied as empathy…..but patriotism by no means!

Not the case for the guy in the army though! For the army you have to be r-e-a-l-l-y disciplined! You don’t set your own priorities or structure your daily routine; the army does it for you! You slog from dawn to dusk in uniform and come home to a lonely barrack. And when the war breaks and your country needs you leave everything at a moments’ notice. In the war all you care is to save your own life and that of your troop mates negotiating thick forest swamps, burning sand dunes, snow covered terrains or rain drenched landmines! If you are lucky you escape the barrage of guns and grenades directed at you at all times. If you make it through the day, you retire to a 6 feet space in your crowded tank, or the makeshift tent house. There is no telling who is a friend or a foe from behind enemy lines, so you lay your faith in god that you will live another day. You are ever so thankful if you get a glimpse of the life you left behind, a letter from home, a picture of your kid, or the letter of your loving wife or heeding of your ever protective mother. Festivals and holidays come and go; you miss the birth of your child, wedding of a cousin and even funeral of a loved one. Life goes on without you; you have no control over anything. Some do it for living; others choose it as a vocation. Either way, this is indeed patriotism.

This is how I see patriotism, everything else is baloney! The moment one leaves his grassroots for a different destination (other than the defense forces) never to come back and live there again, whether it is one mile from one’s birthplace or ten thousand miles from home, it can be categorically defined as “bettering one’s life!” Some might agree that if you contribute to your country in any way shape or form even from afar, it can still be looked upon as goodwill and empathy; and in a broader sense even patriotism! So let’s not be too narrow minded or prophetic about other’s destinies when we haven’t met our own?

This morning I was not only part of the research team at the NIH, but also the Hindi interpreter for an Indian Jat (who by the way is neither a techie, nor an IItian, just a gas station worker) with epilepsy, who had to have an intricate brain surgery to resect the diseased part of his brain. During the delicate neurosurgery the brain mapping was done to identify and stimulate certain parts to see the integrity of the functions. I had to translate what was being done to the different lobes of his brain, while testing his speech and sensory areas by eliciting responses through a slide show. Was I a patriot? Nope! Was the experience gratifying as a decent human being, and as a fellow Indian? Yes!

Who are we to draw the moral boundaries? Who are we to call someone else a lesser human?

Vivek: your posts are always enlightening and unbiased. Thanks for the contribution!
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Thank you Sheorayan uncle for your enlightening reply, I appreciate your effort of helping me and so many of us.
 
Dear Amit,
You are welcome.
It gives much satisfaction to be able to assist some one and if that some one is young Jat it is even better.

From experience it seems we are getting so much caught up in political correctness that heart to heart talk is not so common as it should be. There is no substitute for truth. Just that there are so many versions of truth that it is becoming harder to separate the chaff from grain. But with sincere effort I am sure we all can experience the freedom and strength which comes from knowing you are on to right track. God Bless you.
 
dear amit sansanwal
i am reading this topic since you started with your comment, and i always thought that people will make you understand and you will think in right direction but i think i must jump into this well . ok dear amit i personally feel that uday was right and there is no doubt about it.he was hero and american army has given him respect for his bravery which some times your country forgets for its own soldiers and i would like to ask you that why you are studying in canada and working there if you so strongly feel that uday has done wrong, you must remember or you should know that indian army also took part in his funral and respected the martyr. bhai fauj mein hota to samaj mein aata fauj kya hai. bahar se baith ke bahut acha lagta hai fauj ladai kar rahi hai desh ke liye,humse puch jisne saamne doston ko marte dekha hai.
 
totally understand and agree with your point of view and I do regard a soldiers' life higher than a civilian's life in all the respects, as their lives are based upon sacrifices and bravery whereas we civilians are self centered and lack in courage.
I do not even have a problem with an Indian boy joining the US army, and fighting for them even if your own country does not support it. But I surely have a problem when someone glorifies such a person by calling him a martyr, I agree he is a martyr for the US but how come he is martyr for the India, how can he be put in the same place where we put our great martyrs of all the wars (1962, 1971, and kargil and all other wars). And this website is also accessed by people back there in India and what if our praise for such a person gives someone a dream to join the US army instead of Indian army, would not that be wrong.
I have problems in digesting this, because I do respect a soldier who fights for his nation but not someone who fights because he has to do so for monetary reasons. Though I do respect an individual who works wherever to make his life better, but I would never go on glorifying him. I regard him as much as I regard any other American soldier who lost his/her life in the uncalled for war. It is very tragic to see these valuable lives getting lost to the republican greed, I saluted there bravery, and as those American soldiers are not martyr for India and did not receive and glory in Indian media, I hope Uday Singh is treated the same way too.
Dear Capt. Deshwal I want to ask a question to you, tomorrow God forbid, you have to go to war, and you are fighting the enemy nation, and you happen to come across and Indian citizen fighting on the other side just because the other sides’ army pays more and has more facilities then your army, what would you call such a person, and how would you feel about it?
Please, do not take this question as my remark that Uday would have fought against India or something like that, I just wanted to ask you that which soldier gets more respect from another soldier.
Thank you for your reply and valuable inform
 
Mahabharat is perfect example. If a person is onopposite side you have to fight him to win otherwise he is going to finish you. That is the duty of soldier I think. You play for keeps and bear no grudge, if you capture him do not treat him as a common criminal because you follow Geneva convention. Does that answer your question. Technicalyy you can say that He is American Martyr but India respects him for his exemplary performance on duty. It is not so strange and should not be too hard since US and India both are fighting terrorists . This is global and not confined to one country.
 
And you will lead a life free to speak your words, and make your living, Amit. But it will mostly be due in part to the exertions men/women other than yourself.

One of those 'other than yourself' may pull you out of a collapsed building, or jump in front of you in a hail of bullets in a random act of terror. Or discover the bomb planted in your mother's plane. Maybe Uday found a weapon's cache that could have been sold to somebody in your backyard. Uday found several. Tonight when you go to sleep with a full belly and no fears, somebody is staying awake at a radar screen, in a ditch, on a boat and in the air making sure that you don't have to. So show a little respect for those who serve you without passion or prejudice, especially those families who paid the price you seem not to appreciate very well.

Yes Amit, they are Indians in America, Indians in India and Americans in India that are making that happen.

You speak your convictions with the fire and intensity of a Jat, young man. But, In the end the shear numbers of the replies to this post will show you where your point of view stands with your fellow countrymen and the rest of the Jat World. It may have passed some sort of logic check in your mind when you posted this, but whatever point you tried to make, it was lost in the horrible and offensive prose in which you used.

Nevertheless, Uday's and the rest of all of our Indian, Indian American, and Jat servicemen and servicewomen's courage will be remembered forever, long after your post. I will remember their service forever, and appreciate the tremendous sacrifice of their families as well.

I'll forget about YOUR post right after I log off.

Let the tide of courage, duty, honor and service continue to our future generations of Jats. And believe me, it has.

Jai Hind, God Bless the USA, and Go Air Force...beat Al Queda!!!

To Happy and Bilu...be safe on the border!

To Priya, Vinay and the rest of my brothers and sisters "down range" come home soon, we love you

To Satveer: Roll On
To "Guruji" and Mom, Check Six!!!
To Ohm...fly high
To D...ya big jarhead!
 
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leave this dear posted wrong
sorry
deshwal
 
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