Do we really revert ?

[anilsinghd]

Okie , so have not we witnessed what has happened over past few days over JL ?

My question to everyone ( and please do not start the same discussion over again ) is , do not you ( I am asking each one who wants to be a part of discussion here ) get really frustrated by putting foreword your points ?

To tell about myself , I can put it once , twice or thrice , but not N times.

Let's take the example of Reservation issue : I vehemently opposed it and for some time but then after a certain length of time , it became obvious that no body is going to budge from their positions , Jitender and Brahm ( only two I recall , please excuse my poor memory ) had valid arguments on their part and I duly respected their Axiom of choice.

What patience , perseverance level one must have ? Waht is the endurance limit ?


Please reflect your opinion on :

1) Whether we should keep moving arbitrarily irrespective of what is happening?

2) What do you think is an appropriate length of perseverance ? ( specially in arguements! ).

3) What is the criterion of each one of you to really start thinking that the other one may also be corret ( when do you start doubting yourself ? ).

4) During course of arguements , do you consider your effort as going waste ? do you do anything about it ?


5) Would you use sarcasm as a tool to bring out the superiority of your arguements ?



Please feel free to add more points to be answered , let it be a self exercise and we can judge on how do we manage ourselves


Thanks,
Anil

 

[anilsinghd]

What patience , perseverance level one must have ? Waht is the endurance limit ?

I have great patience but perseverance level might not be that great ! I do not really go on for the kill of the other person if I am really strong about something and he/she is against it , I reiterate that i respect the Axiom of choice!


Please reflect your opinion on :

1) Whether we should keep moving arbitrarily irrespective of what is happening?

Nopes , I will always stop and give myself a pause and some time to really think whether the direction of the work/arguement is right or not !!


2) What do you think is an appropriate length of perseverance ? ( specially in arguements! ).

Depends on circumstances , but lets say a couple of iterations and may be one more is good enough to think of alternatives!

3) What is the criterion of each one of you to really start thinking that the other one may also be corret ( when do you start doubting yourself ? ).

Generally is based on the quality of arguements , if the other person has strong quality arguements , I would always go for a reconsideration ! Well , it is also important that you judge the quality of the other person's post/arguements in an unbiased manner!

4) During course of arguements , do you consider your effort as going waste ? do you do anything about it ?

Yups , at times , if i feel about it , i generally let it go , its not worth the time and effort !


5) Would you use sarcasm as a tool to bring out the superiority of your arguements ?

Well , i will n ot run away , at time I doe s have used it , but not very excessively , and i generally try to prevent myself from doing that , because to me that is againt very human-ness of us !


Thanks,
Anil

My comments inline ...

 

[vivekgathwala]

My comments inline ...

anil..........i always want to be a spectator ...but in this filed i didn get to know what this is all about ......................plz explain .i hope u wont mind what this is all about

 

[sumitteotia]

anil..........i always want to be a spectator ...but in this filed i didn get to know what this is all about ......................plz explain .i hope u wont mind what this is all about

Exactly Vivek

 

[navingulia]

1. in a very vast majority (i will put around 80-90%), people dont change opinions.
2. the few who do change opinion wont straight away agree for ego reasons and conceding defeat.
3. arguments are like war, we want to prevail over others.
4. for discussions to be more fruitful a) we need to make it ego free b) casual statement of points c) avoid feeling hurt d) avoid rude and taunting language/terms. e) let everybody have their opinion, however wrong they might be accorrding to you f) besides mentioning your points, be an observer

 

[vijay]

Okie , so have not we witnessed what has happened over past few days over JL ?

My question to everyone ( and please do not start the same discussion over again ) is , do not you ( I am asking each one who wants to be a part of discussion here ) get really frustrated by putting foreword your points ?

To tell about myself , I can put it once , twice or thrice , but not N times.

Nice thread Anil,

Before putting up my point of views on the discussion i would like to mention an incident here which is quite relevent to the whole episode we witnessed here.


एक बार किसी गाँव में दो पडोसियों में झगडा हो गया और पंचायत बुलाई गई । समस्या यह थी कि एक आदमी के घर की छ्त पर पतनाला ( छ्त पर इकट्ठे हुए पानी को निकालने का पाईपनुमा रास्ता ) था जो कि दुसरे आदमी के आँगन में गिरता था । जब भी बरसात होती तो छ्त का सारा पानी दुसरे व्यक्ति के आँगन में गिरता था । कई बार कहने के बावजूद जब वह पतनाला नहीं हटाया गया तो उसने पंचायत बुलाई ।

पंचो ने दोनो की बात सुनी और सर्वसम्मति से फ़ैसला किया कि पतनाले की जगह बदल देनी चहिये ताकि उसका पानी दुसरे व्यक्ति के आँगन में नहीं गिरे ।

यह फ़ैसला सुनकर वह व्यक्ति जिसका पतनाला था उठ कर खडा हुआ और बोला "मैं गाँव का एक जिम्मेदार व्यक्ति होने के नाते पंचायत के फ़ैसले का पूरे दिल से सम्मान करता हूँ और उनका हर आदेश मानने को तैयार हूँ लेकिन मेरा पतनाला वहीं का वहीं रहेगा ।"

लोगों ने उसे समझाया कि भाई आपके पतनाले से किसी दुसरे व्यक्ति को परेशानी होती है तो आपको पतनाले कि जगह बदल देनी चाहिये । तो बोला, "मैं न तो किसी को परेशान करता हूँ और न ही मेरा किसी को परेशान करने का ईरादा है । मैं तो बडा शांतिप्रिय आदमी हूँ और आप सब लोग जैसा भी करने को कहेंगे मैं बिल्कुल वैसा ही करुंगा लेकिन मेरा पतनाला वहीं का वहीं रहेगा ।"

पंचो ने भी उस से कहा कि ये पंचायत का आदेश है कि तुम्हे पतनाला ह्टाना ही पडेगा । उसने बडी ही विनम्रता से फ़िर कहा, "पंचायत के फ़ैसले से मैं पूरी तरह से सहमत हूँ और उसका बहुत आदर करता हूँ लेकिन मेरा पतनाला वहीं का वहीं रहेगा ।"



I hope you people got the point.

Will try to put my inline comments later

 

[anjusin]

Im not a regular much here in writing threads but constantly been a spectator and what i see is that...
when a thread starts it is to put our own opinion...
as i once post my opinion...may be agree or disagree with proper explanation..
I never repeat my opinion....as i guess once said...it is no use of ...repeating it again..and participating...just for the sake of being part of it...i can add if smthing else has to be added

I will always try n ask myself a question ...whether wat i said has smthing to do with the topic of dicussions..whether the lanaguage im using may hurt someone personally or so...
The beauty of any discussion is to continue it with the underlying disagreements between the ppl...trying to maintain the decorum importantly ..i wish ppl could do it...i guess smtimes we wish to listen smthing n whn we don't recieve the same answer..we try to force ppl to follow our opinion....which leads to friction and when so many ppl r present it easily moves to some different level.....

 

[vikrantsiwag]

Anil bhai...I also have been a victim of the same "i'll not budge" attitude in a post despite providing solid reason to everything. So I find myself on the same ground as u.

1. We should never move arbitrarily as there is always a correct path available. If we somehow wander off to some arbitrary way we should not feel any shame in reverting back to correct path. Also we should keep a self reminder on to analyze ourselves periodically.

2. Depends on circumstances and person both. A person having a Gandhiian perseverance will be more persistent. But generally we should oblige as soon as we realize being on wrong side.

3. Everybody realizes as soon he sees he is wrong and competitors' viewpoint is correct but nobody budges due to ego.

4. Yes, i see efforts as going waste sometimes but try to provide reasons upto my perseverance limit.

5. I avoid sarcasm and feel everybody must do the same and should argue with reason and intellect.

 

[anilsinghd]

Vivek and Sumit:

I am not so sure as to why you did not get to know what the thread talks about ! What i am trying to talk about is that many a times we have seen endless arguments over one topic and they keep going and going and you can easily see patterns of repeatedness in them and for all practical purposes they seem futile ( at least to me ).


What i am asking is why do we keep moving on those lines of arguments even if we whole heartedly believe that we are correct. At some point of time , we should revert and try and calm down ourselves and look at the points and mentality /psychology of the other party as well. Either we can realise our mistake or we can identify the reasons as to why it is not acceptable to the other person but to keep continuing for nothing does not seem a good option to me at least.


Vikrant : A ppreciate your response !
Also i start a thread does not mean that i am suffering from the same !


Also as Vijay pointed out with examples from beyond JL , i would request the members not to restrict your thoughts in the realms of JL , let us make an attempt to learn as much as possible! I at times think I am guilty of thinking may be too broad for my lil understanding but it is not that bad after all!


As Navin pointed out the solutions of how to make a good converstaion , I am reminded that it is not always that we make a sarcastic comment , it also depends on the other person on how he/she takes it ? Right ?

Ways to prevent such a thing ?
More examples ? thoughts ?

 

[anilsinghd]

May i invite more and senior members to may be contribute something on the topic , any practical suggestions and ways to improve on ourselves would be great!

Vijay , are you done on the topic ?


Regards,
anil

 

[vijay]

Vijay , are you done on the topic ?


Regards,
anil

No Anil, I am not done yet. These type of threads generally seems nowhere when daily so many 'important' and 'useful' thread gets started in bulk. I somehow missed this thread after my first post on it.

Will surely post soon ! []

 

[poonamchaudhary]

I'll talk only about myself here and not generally...I personally believe that one should put one's point in clear terms and in honest and sincere way. I myself always try to write if I really have something to say on a particular topic. I make it a point that what I write is something that I really believe in and I keep myself open to other's views..after all this is how we can improve ourselves. So if in any argument I find that the other person has really said something noteworthy then I am always ready to change my own views in that light.

Secondly, if in any argument I find it useless to say something because the whole argument has gone awry then I back off. Its important to see what kind of audience we have and what kind of participators. Its not a good idea to participate in a pointless and purposeless argument. So one should know when and where one should opine and when to back off.

 

[vijay]

What patience , perseverance level one must have ? Waht is the endurance limit ?

Patience is the key, especially, whenever you are in any social gathering or discussing something on a social forum. Patience always pays back in good dividends. I possess a good level of patience with a long lasting endurance. Circumstances tests me from time to time and most of the times i emerges out as a winner except some incidents where I might have lost my patience.

The preservation level depends upon the circumstances and people with whom we are interacting. In normal circumstances where people have ear to listen there is no limit of preservation level. On the other hand, when people are in talking mode only instead of ‘talking and listening mode simultaneously’ there is little scope for the preservation and that is quite obvious. Quality of discussion, intellect level and accepting powers of valid facts automatically stretches the preservation capabilities.

1) Whether we should keep moving arbitrarily irrespective of what is happening?

Arbitrarily thoughts can be put forward to bring out something innovative. But we should not go for them endlessly instead we should keep a check on the proceedings and direction of the discussion and should ready to be flexible to accept the valid facts and arguments. Most of the people realizes at a certain point that their point of views on wrong but it is very hard for them to digest. They becomes so intense about their arbitrarily thoughts that even thinking of returning back seems like a defeat and ego problem landed up beautifully. So, it is better not to intensify the discussion to such a level that retuning back feels like a personal defeat or insult.

2) What do you think is an appropriate length of perseverance ? ( specially in arguements! ).

As I said earlier, it depends on circumstances and the respective interacting entities. If someone couldn’t get our viewpoint we can repeat it in another simplest manner and maybe once more with a detailed example. If even after someone is so rigid or unable to understand (not trying to understand) then there are always so many alternatives.

Preservation level depends on the mode of the individuals with whom we are interacting. “Talking, listening and understanding mode” always increase the preservation level while “Strictly talking mode” terminates the preservation powers of any individual ASAP

3) What is the criterion of each one of you to really start thinking that the other one may also be corret ( when do you start doubting yourself ? ).

Here the thumb rule is that one must sit relaxed and read someone’s point of views with due attention instead of reading the post with one hand eager to press the reply button. Most of the times people don’t get the real meaning of someone’s point of views but reply in an arbitrarily manner and ironically their own reply ridicules themselves when they get to know the real meaning of the statement/views.

The best way is to read/understand carefully, compare with your views, analyze and conclude before replying. If other one is correct (fully or half) should accept it gracefully. If you are just obsessed with your own theory, don’t expect or ask someone other to rethink about it.

Unbiased thinking always helps the quality discussion and honest point of views and is always conclusive. It would be nice that before participating in the discussion, people first act as an observer of the whole discussion and later join with some conclusive and/or some suggestive thoughts.

4) During course of arguements , do you consider your effort as going waste ? do you do anything about it ?

Yes, I consider many times that my efforts are going waste and obviously back off without wasting any more second on it.

5) Would you use sarcasm as a tool to bring out the superiority of your arguements ?

Sarcasm is not that bad if you put it constructively but people use it more than needed and using it as a tool to humiliate and/or make fun of others. More or less, I use sarcasm but as long as I feel that people are comfortable with it.

One more thing I would like to mention that a person should very clear about his point of views. He must use simple and direct approach to convey the message he want to instead of using some diplomatic and/or complex statements which may lead to some confusion. Message should be given importance rather than jumbling with words/statements as everybody has different calibers of intellect. A simplest statement from someone can turned out to be a most difficult puzzle for someone else.

To be precise and simple is the key.

 

[trueblueindian]

1. in a very vast majority (i will put around 80-90%), people dont change opinions.
2. the few who do change opinion wont straight away agree for ego reasons and conceding defeat.
3. arguments are like war, we want to prevail over others.
4. for discussions to be more fruitful a) we need to make it ego free b) casual statement of points c) avoid feeling hurt d) avoid rude and taunting language/terms. e) let everybody have their opinion, however wrong they might be accorrding to you f) besides mentioning your points, be an observer

true to core, rest many a times opinions do depend upon how we think about others

 

[anilsinghd]

Patience always pays back in good dividends.

Correcto ! Do not need to write dohas to support your obviously true arguement of patience delivering good fruits!


Most of the people realizes at a certain point that their point of views on wrong but it is very hard for them to digest.


Yes i realise and appreciate that but i am totally bewildered as to why people take it that way , everyone would be concur with the idea of Learning being a life long phenomenon and that the maximum learning comes from people ( to make it concrete , the most I have learnt lets say in academics is either through a direct professor or with intensified discussion with batchmates , do not we prefer the regular course over the correspondence one , so it is the direct interaction t hat ads extra tinge to learning and then while discussing with people , getting their opinion , one you b roaden your way of thinking , your approach to problems , so why not be open to ideas ?







Here the thumb rule is that one must sit relaxed and read someone’s point of views with due attention instead of reading the post with one hand eager to press the reply button.

Agred whole heartedly , infact this is something I always practice, just to take an example of discusing on JL , I always finish my morning work ( we call it morning fire ) a nd then log in and still I only read threads which demand concentration only when I am sure that I can give enough time to them! Same goes for discussion with other people and at other places , Do not discuss if you are really pressed for time ! It will make things worse !


Sarcasm is not that bad if you put it constructively but people use it more than needed and using it as a tool to humiliate and/or make fun of others.

I would prefer to use sarcasm only with those ( and agree as well on this with you ) with which I have an excellent rapport. I understand people have their own writing styles , but I would like to suggest that when writing on forums and on topics where different view points are possible , and also you might have to discuss with people who you do not know , it is always good if one can be formal enough , maintain the flavour of your writing skills but show enough respect and formality so that you do convey to others reading your opinion that you are doing an earnest attempt to discuss and not an half-heartedly attempt ( indirectly implying a I DO NOT CARE approch ! ) Formalism is a good thing to imbibe because it can help you in other areas as well!


Again to substantiate Vijay's point on this , from the point of view of this forum , many a times it seems that people reply to "faces" or "names" of others rather than the post of theirs ! ( Would like to share the credit for this with Vijay as this was discussed once with him )
This is something that should not be allowed to come in discussions and specially in topics which require some sanctity! I have my own style of being friendly with people but being formal , precise and serious when it really comes to discussing important issues and topics ! Also since I very much change my way of talking it is easy for my friends and colleagues to realise that I am in the "discussion" mode and that prevents two things:
1) they taking me in light mode when I mean business.
2) they taking me serious when I am kidding.



Reagrding Vijay's point of being simple , that is crucial because you are not sure of the audience! I am myself very much guilty of being too mathematical or technical at times( I am trying to improve though ! ) but then I do try to clarify if someone asks for any further explanations or try and give a different sort of example , again a handy tool to possess!



Thanks Vijay for your detailed personal analysis , hope a few more can come out and share what they personally do and feel!


Regards,
Anil

 

[pdpbeniwal]

I wrote my views with so much diligence but got gutted in the process of logging again and then going back.....doing every damn thing in order to get my post back but of no use finally.
This site still needs a lot of improvements.

 

[anilsinghd]

I wrote my views with so much diligence but got gutted in the process of logging again and then going back.....doing every damn thing in order to get my post back but of no use finally.
This site still needs a lot of improvements.

Happened to me a couple of times ! The thing you did wrong wa to t ry and use the Back button !
If you simply log in on the page you are prompted , it will be fine !

anyways , i can iamgine the disgusting feeling ! Gather some patience and do it again !

Looking forward to rea d what you intended to share!