Does India need to increase or decrease it's defense spending?

[dahiyarules]

Here is the link to the Paper I was talking about.

It is written by Dr. Tom Woods, my ideological mentor and one of my favorite authors. He is the author of the NYTimes bestseller "Politically Incorrect Guide to American History." Dr. Woods is a senior fellow at Ludwig Von Mises institute in Auburn, Alabama. He is talking about Dr. Seymour Melman, the Late Industrial Engineering icon.

Dr. Woods talks about Dr. Melman's reseach into the wasteful spending by the American Military-Industrial complex.

http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/woods2.pdf

Caution: You need t have Adobe Acrobat on your computer in order to open the paper.

 

[rkumar]

Big Businesses will learn to be honest in the absence of governemnt's control over the economy, and wont be able eat out smaller businesses.

Always remember that markets punish bad behavior and reqard good behavior.

Don't know in which world you are living Sumit. Have you forgotten the recent episodes of Enron, Tyco and many others where their CEO syphoned all the money in a so called free economy with no government controls. Had government not intervened, these CEOs would have walked with all the loot and share holders would have been able to do anything. Having worked in almost all type of sectors I am the last to trust these big firms whose only moto is profit. You are talking of an ideal world which even Lord Krishna could not control... Forget about it all...greed of man will always force him to deprive others and armies will always be there. Those who don't have strong defence, will be eaten away like China did with Tibet..

RK^2

 

[dahiyarules]

Don't know in which world you are living Sumit. Have you forgotten the recent episodes of Enron, Tyco and many others where their CEO syphoned all the money in a so called free economy with no government controls. Had government not intervened, these CEOs would have walked with all the loot and share holders would have been able to do anything. Having worked in almost all type of sectors I am the last to trust these big firms whose only moto is profit. You are talking of an ideal world which even Lord Krishna could not control... Forget about it all...greed of man will always force him to deprive others and armies will always be there. Those who don't have strong defence, will be eaten away like China did with Tibet..

RK^2

Enron and Tyco are the perfect examples that socialist fascists always give to mislead people. Enron and Tyco spent millions of dollars lobbying politicians in Washington. Infact, George Bush Sr. was even present at the funeral of the now dead former CEO of Enron Kenneth Lay.

What really makes you think that these corporations operated in a free market environment? If so, then why were they lobbying politicians in Washington?

I am not talking of a defenseless india surviving side by side with a maniacal China. I am talking about striving for a world without standing armies. Its just an idea, which will become a reality only if more and more people accept it.

 

[deepakchoudhry]

Hi Sumit,

What is the gurantee that so called Markets won't exploit the society for their own profits.

You are assuming that everyone will follow what you propose and we will all live happily ever after.

No 2 individuals in the world thinks alike and in some cases one might like to dominate another by force or by another means....what do you propose to do then.

Here is another thought....Vedic System classfied society according to nature or gunas of Human beings which was more appropriate and had more freedom of choice.

Intellectuals , Warriors or ruling class, Mercantile and Farmers and Serving Class. And simply by doing our Dharmic Duties everything fell in place and balance was acheived in the society. There was Peace for 1000's of years but due to degrade in human values, society went on a downward slippery slope.

I think giving any society a common blanket of any concept is no different than living in a for eg a communist or Islamist state.

One type of "ism" cannot dominate other sections or parts of the society, there needs to be a balance.

Deepak

 

[dahiyarules]

Hi Sumit,

What is the gurantee that so called Markets won't exploit the society for their own profits.

You are assuming that everyone will follow what you propose and we will all live happily ever after.

No 2 individuals in the world thinks alike and in some cases one might like to dominate another by force or by another means....what do you propose to do then.

Here is another thought....Vedic System classfied society according to nature or gunas of Human beings which was more appropriate and had more freedom of choice.

Intellectuals , Warriors or ruling class, Mercantile and Farmers and Serving Class. And simply by doing our Dharmic Duties everything fell in place and balance was acheived in the society. There was Peace for 1000's of years but due to degrade in human values, society went on a downward slippery slope.

I think giving any society a common blanket of any concept is no different than living in a for eg a communist or Islamist state.

One type of "ism" cannot dominate other sections or parts of the society, there needs to be a balance.

Deepak

You knw something sir, you do not know whats exploitation?

Exploitation is when people do not have a choice. They are forced to avail a given person's goods and services.

Markets avoid exploitation because bad behavior by a seller creates opportunity for other sellers to move in and provide good services.

I think that the vedic system was designed by the theologists to dominate our society and exploit the masses. I do not believe in god so I do not need brahmins. But, I am a human and need food and other services. So, I had rather have the vaishyas and the sudras than have more Brahmins. The whole concept of a vedic society was highly flawed. I am glad its gone. Each person must have the opportunity to give his or her best to the society irrespective of his or her background. Vedic system clearly avoids it.

By the way, if you are such a firm believer in the vedic system, then why are you a doctor. According to your own beliefs you should be in the fields right now, working on your crops.

 

[rameshlakra]

Dear Sumit,
I must appreciate your good but unrealistic lateral thinking that this world should be free of armies. Unfortuanely the human or for that matter any creature is not made that way. Its a chain where there are preys and predators. To cut the long story short its the way we have evolved and it can not be undone at this stage, may be when the sun vanishes in millions of year time and we have the a brand new life, may be then. Till then we have to have armies ,which are, stronger, leaner, up-to-date and best and there are NO two ways about it.

The armed forces needs more budget to modernise themselves. And for the sake of information the substantila part of the budget is spend on Pensions and Pay( which pathy as compared to executives and kind of the nature of work involved)
To sum it up the situation is demanding more pay packets(part of budget) and Modernisation of the current equipments.
Look at the military diplomacy and good will we have earned by helping countries During Tsunami and Lebanon evacution. We do get recognised by our reach and show of strength.

 

[ravinderdahiya]

I think that the vedic system was designed by the theologists to dominate our society and exploit the masses. I do not believe in god so I do not need brahmins. But, I am a human and need food and other services. So, I had rather have the vaishyas and the sudras than have more Brahmins. The whole concept of a vedic society was highly flawed. I am glad its gone. Each person must have the opportunity to give his or her best to the society irrespective of his or her background. Vedic system clearly avoids it.

By the way, if you are such a firm believer in the vedic system, then why are you a doctor. According to your own beliefs you should be in the fields right now, working on your crops.[/quote]

Bhai sahab,
after going through your post I feel that there is something really wrong with your thinking about Vedic system, Vedic system never said that "son of a farmer can only be a farmer" it says that "son of a farmer can be a doctor if he does his karma accordingly"
I would not like to suggest but i feel you need to revisit the whole concept of Vedic system.

 

[dahiyarules]

I
Bhai sahab,
after going through your post I feel that there is something really wrong with your thinking about Vedic system, Vedic system never said that "son of a farmer can only be a farmer" it says that "son of a farmer can be a doctor if he does his karma accordingly"
I would not like to suggest but i feel you need to revisit the whole concept of Vedic system.

This sounds even more messed up. Even though you are wrong, let me assume for a moment that you are right. You dont need Karma to become a doctor. You need a high IQ and hard work to become a doctor.

Under a vedic system, the son of a farmer did not need to be a farmer. But, a son of a farmer could pick up other occupations within the Sudra caste. For example, he could be a merchant or a trader.

But, this was very inefficient division of labor. There were some undeserving dumb people who got the shortcut to the top of the society by being born into aristocracy. And, all they did was drink and womanize all their lives at the cost of the lower castes. While, there were some very intelligent people who were born into lower who never got an opportunity because of caste barriers.

It could have been the other way round too.

 

[dahiyarules]

Dear Sumit,
I must appreciate your good but unrealistic lateral thinking that this world should be free of armies. Unfortuanely the human or for that matter any creature is not made that way. Its a chain where there are preys and predators. To cut the long story short its the way we have evolved and it can not be undone at this stage, may be when the sun vanishes in millions of year time and we have the a brand new life, may be then. Till then we have to have armies ,which are, stronger, leaner, up-to-date and best and there are NO two ways about it.

The armed forces needs more budget to modernise themselves. And for the sake of information the substantila part of the budget is spend on Pensions and Pay( which pathy as compared to executives and kind of the nature of work involved)
To sum it up the situation is demanding more pay packets(part of budget) and Modernisation of the current equipments.
Look at the military diplomacy and good will we have earned by helping countries During Tsunami and Lebanon evacution. We do get recognised by our reach and show of strength.

For some reason, people are missing the point. I guess that no one even bothered to read the paper that I linked.

The point is that we need to remove government's monopoly over national defense because there is a lot of wastage in the process. We have arsenals that can destroy the world several times over. And all this is waste of our resources.

If we had a privatized defense system, we can ensure that such wastage doesnt happen. Besides, I see that there is a strong demand for a good national defense. So, what makes you think that any society would lose its defense if governments get rid of their monopoly over this sector.

A lot of propaganda has been pumped into your brains. In the name of national defense and patriotism the government is running the scarce resources of our society, dry. This foolishness needs to stop.

Anyone ever heard of the "coolaid people. " Google it. You guys re the coolaid people. Especially the older ones. You guys just trust everything about democracy, government, and whatever the government has to say, blindly. It is not the sign of a healthy society.

 

[ravinderdahiya]

This sounds even more messed up. Even though you are wrong, let me assume for a moment that you are right. You dont need Karma to become a doctor. You need a high IQ and hard work to become a doctor.

yes, IQ is a deciding factor but what matters in Medical entrance exams is hard work(karma), guidance and persistance any many other factors and Vedic system never says that IQ has no importance

Under a vedic system, the son of a farmer did not need to be a farmer. But, a son of a farmer could pick up other occupations within the Sudra caste. For example, he could be a merchant or a trader.

But, this was very inefficient division of labor. There were some undeserving dumb people who got the shortcut to the top of the society by being born into aristocracy. And, all they did was drink and womanize all their lives at the cost of the lower castes. While, there were some very intelligent people who were born into lower who never got an opportunity because of caste barriers.

It could have been the other way round too.

The two statements in Lime seem to be contradictory of each other.
and something about the topic, The situation wherein, no nation needs armies seems very hypothetical to me.
You may call it right or wromg but I feel that if there is a need then we should not hesitate from increasing our defense budgets

 

[dahiyarules]

The two statements in Lime seem to be contradictory of each other.
and something about the topic, The situation wherein, no nation needs armies seems very hypothetical to me.
You may call it right or wromg but I feel that if there is a need then we should not hesitate from increasing our defense budgets

Ok agreed! point taken.

Then I think that such inflated defense budgets must be funded only by those who support them. Others should have the option to save their taxes.

I dont care if you sell your land and home and buy a Mig 29 fighter for our Air Force.

But, I do not want to contribute another penny to the government's nuclear program that is all about total madness.

 

[yudhvirmor]

For some reason, people are missing the point. I guess that no one even bothered to read the paper that I linked.

Hi Sumit,

I dont understand what you want to transform..

1. You want this world to be army free>> Result will be civil war and millions of countries. I wont be surprised to find the country name Sumit Dahiya in some part of this world.

2. You want free markets and big fishes.. Result will be monopoly and they wont let anybody survive. Think about only relinace gas pumps in india...

You have every right to think different but there must be some rationale thinking or some live examples to support your vibrant ideas.

Cheers
Yudhvir Mor

 

[rameshlakra]

Well Sumit ji,
U r reply is based on assumptions that i am trusting whatever is being fed to me be by media etc. To clear the air at the cost of bragging, let me tell u that i have known the system inside out. There is no wastage (if u can elaborate this point to me to reply specifically).

I think u are confusing the whole issue by shifting the goal post.

Regards

For some reason, people are missing the point. I guess that no one even bothered to read the paper that I linked.

The point is that we need to remove government's monopoly over national defense because there is a lot of wastage in the process. We have arsenals that can destroy the world several times over. And all this is waste of our resources.

If we had a privatized defense system, we can ensure that such wastage doesnt happen. Besides, I see that there is a strong demand for a good national defense. So, what makes you think that any society would lose its defense if governments get rid of their monopoly over this sector.

A lot of propaganda has been pumped into your brains. In the name of national defense and patriotism the government is running the scarce resources of our society, dry. This foolishness needs to stop.

Anyone ever heard of the "coolaid people. " Google it. You guys re the coolaid people. Especially the older ones. You guys just trust everything about democracy, government, and whatever the government has to say, blindly. It is not the sign of a healthy society.

 

[devdahiya]

BHAI GHAR MEI ANNAJJ HO CHAHE NA HO...DARWAJJE ARR KHHIDDKI TEI SAB NEI CHEHIYEIN.ECONOMY ALONE CAN'T MAKE A NATION STRONG,ELSE US could manage without the forces and fighting power.

 

[rohittewatia]

kashmir koh solve karlo to defence expenditure to apane aap hi ghaat jayega. Per voh hoh naheen sakta....kamse pachaas saal taak.

Sumit ki baat to samaajh maain aatih hai, however ground realities are different.

The scenario in Asia is not the same as europe, where countries do not threaten each other.

 

[dahiyarules]

I am not commenting on this one any more because people are just repeating the same arguments that I have responded to over and over again in this thread.

I really do not think that we can be headed towards a brgiht and peaceful future with a belligerent, pro-military mentality.

Just think twice what you are handing over to your kids before you leave. They will be fighting the conflicts started by us.

It does not mean that India needs to demilitarize voluntarily. But we could start an initiative to disarm regionally along with the other players.

I am afraid that it will never happen with the kind of mentality that people on both sides display.

The other sides attitude must not give us the excuse to be as stupid as them.

 

[raj_rathee]

I am afraid that it will never happen with the kind of mentality that people on both sides display.

Hallelujah! I think you are finally beginning to get it, Sumit! Bravo!
Ajee koi mithai le kar aaao. Apna Sumit ghar lot aaya hai.

Sumit, you can never seem to convince a bunch of your own people
here on Jatland with your ideas (or at least Libertarian ideas) and
you think you can convince nations to give up armies! It can never be
done...unless every human being gets a lobotomy and then gets
implanted with a "Libertarian chip". And that ain't happening, is it?

Sumit, please don't mind my saying so (and I am confident you
won't), but reading your posts it often feels like you've
just run out of your Economics 101 class after having heard
about "Free Markets/Efficient Markets", screaming "Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! I have seen the light!". You got so excited that you forgot
to listen in to the professor's "But,..." caveats. And this was just Econ 101.

And then there is the Practicality 101 (and 201, 301, 401, 501, 601)
that you'll need to take as well before you graduate.

If the "Duniya" ran on academic priciciples and "feel good" theories,
you wouldn't find professors in Universities. They'd be somewhere else.

 

[pnauhwar21]

Its literally not practical to cut down the current defense setup of India in view of the neighbours like Pakistan and China who have stabbed us at back many times.

But there are some regions like Siachen which are exhorbitantly costly and serving no practical purpose except having a show of power and little upper hand tactically. More soldiers have died due to frostbites and extreme weather there than the cross-firing. The governments really need to have a dialogue and understand the futility of fighting such a costly battle which really serves no purpose to people of either side. There was an agreement in the past but it was pushed back after Kargill. Again its really tough to have faith in a country like Pakistan but if the people of both countries really understand that money being spent uselessly in such battles can be used for far better purposes, it might happen in future generations if not sooner.

Sumit's main point is right that the war serve no purpose but his talk of private armies is really flawed in principle. Similarly, we cannot cut down on nuclear devices or army/air force when other countries in the world are piling them up. If a step has to be taken to demilitarize, it has to be done collectively by all countries starting with 5 permanent member of UN. If I were the Prime Minister of country, I would have definitely called out to all countries for destroying all nuclear warheads and stop wasting the money of people.

Lastly, we would still need military to protect the motherland coz every human in the world is not good and someone, someday would try to attack your home and you would need someone to protect it. Afterall, even Gods have an army. Total demilitarization can only happen if there is an utopian world where noone harms anyone, nobody loots, nobody murders, nobody rapes and everybody is happy, have enough food to live and a shelter above the head. I really wish that to happen, but when 10 people can't agree on a cricket match how do you expect the whole world to understand all this..

 

[rraajjeevv]

Sumit,
You wrote on the first page -
'Because of socialist minded fascist people of your generation who ran India after our Independence, India lost 40 years.'
I feel the choices India had to face at the time of independence was more complex than what you are saying. One can argue that had India aligned with the West then, we may have been one of the poodles of the West in which case dictators would have ruled India. The situation would have been worse.
But I fully agree that India should have shed its socialist/Nehruvian approach long before 1990. But then USSR broke up only in late 1980s, else things would have been different.

You are talking about the middle class having to pay taxes to spend on defence. How many people in India pay tax? It is the miniscule minority the salaried class that does not have any choice. And the other issue is of corruption in every part of life.

If we can reduce/control corruption, i am sure there will not be any need to reduce defence expenditure. According to conservative estimates, unregulated economy of India can add about 40% to the Indian GDP. Considering that the Indian defence expenditure is ~3% of its GDP, 40% is a hell lot of money.

You wrote on another topic -'If you go to Pakistani forums like www.paklinks.com, you will realize that what brings together the people of Pakistani people is a commong desire to destroy India. '
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8984&page=3

My view is that Indian should spent just enough to enable the country strong enough to defend itself. I do not feel that with such neighbours we can ever be safe.
BTW if you are paying your taxes in USA, so why do not you try and get USA to reduce its defence expenditure. I am sure if the most powerful country sets an example, others can surely replicate that approach.

 

[dahiyarules]

Hallelujah! I think you are finally beginning to get it, Sumit! Bravo!
Ajee koi mithai le kar aaao. Apna Sumit ghar lot aaya hai.

Sumit, you can never seem to convince a bunch of your own people
here on Jatland with your ideas (or at least Libertarian ideas) and
you think you can convince nations to give up armies! It can never be
done...unless every human being gets a lobotomy and then gets
implanted with a "Libertarian chip". And that ain't happening, is it?

Sumit, please don't mind my saying so (and I am confident you
won't), but reading your posts it often feels like you've
just run out of your Economics 101 class after having heard
about "Free Markets/Efficient Markets", screaming "Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! I have seen the light!". You got so excited that you forgot
to listen in to the professor's "But,..." caveats. And this was just Econ 101.

And then there is the Practicality 101 (and 201, 301, 401, 501, 601)
that you'll need to take as well before you graduate.

If the "Duniya" ran on academic priciciples and "feel good" theories,
you wouldn't find professors in Universities. They'd be somewhere else.

I guess I have read a little more Economics than most over here can comprehend. It is my bread and butter.

My whole idea of "freedom to choose" has the least to do with Economics and more to do with "basic human rights to decide whats in our best interest." And, I did not learn this in any of my Economics classes. I learnt it as a part of the process of information exchange with other learned scholars and philosophers.

I am not trying to shove my ideas down others throat or anything. It is sad to know that instead of challenging my ideas, people are questioning my credibility.

The only reason I take time off to scribble on forums like these is to spread the word around. I do not get pleasure out of being a pain in peoples' rear.

I have come to a conclusion that nothing can be done for a society that is so closed for new ideas. I think Indians deserve to be rammed in their rear day in and day out by our ruling elite.

Those who do not have the courage to claim their liberty do not deserve to have any.

Maybe people will reconsider their position on Economic affairs of our society when we face a global Economic melt down. Something that is imminent and is around the corner. My savings are zero. Those who have nothing, got nothing to loose. But others who have been slogging day and night to save, working 10000 miles away from home, and have just insulated themselves from the idea of what the Governments have done to our futures will remember my words.

Very honestly, people will still not learn there lessons. Some tyrannical demagogue will set up a new system of government once the current one melts down. And people will again bend over for him to do what leaders like to do the most. And the circle will go on. I am not surprised that Indians have been enslaved by someone since the beginning of time. We have this mentality of being subservient towards our masters. The defense of government spending really does not surprise me.

Thanks for giving a read.