For Pseudo-Secular Hindus and Modi baiters

[rathiji]

Tune pehle family ko leke likha tha, "family ke saath reh ke dekhna, UP mei"..Kyun bhai tu kaun hai merko order dene wala..Aab tu batayega merko kahan rehna hai..Uske baad tu Visa ke order den lag gaya merko.. Tu hai Kaun? Apna kaam kar ek aud nai padd kai.. faaltu ke drame na rache yahan pe.

The post on which Vicky felt insulted

Vicky Mohan,

Pakistan to chor do family ke saath KhalaPar me nahi reh paoge. Meerut ke KhairNagar,JaliKothi me nahi reh paoge.

I am not able to understand where I am ordering you or insulting you in this post. If anyone here understand, Please tell me.

This is perfectly true that no one from Hindu community could live easily in these areas with their family.

Tu hai Kaun?

For you, I am only a member of Jatland.

 

[cooljat]

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its
votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in
a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic
apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident
habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of
commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the
followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that
in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine,
must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of
Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
influence of the religion paralyses the social development of
those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from
being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing
faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa,
raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that
Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the
science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization
of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient
Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition,
Vol. II, pages 248-50 London)



"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog." - Churchill

 

[desijat]

आप और यहाँ भतेरे लोग भी तो हिंदुस्तान से दुखी है, वो भी आप जैसी सोच वाले होंगे ...

Bahut badhiya chalo koi to sukhi hai wahan. Kyonki mere to musalman dost hai Pakistan ke yahan London me ve bhi dukhi hai Pakistan se

 

[desijat]

desi bhai..chalo ek kaam karte hai pakistan ke haalat thode sudhar jaye .......aur app jab india aao to app aur mai.........pakistan chalte hai jyada time bhi nahi lagega.........ambedgar stadium se bus chalti hai...........dono kuch jatto se milenge..meri urdu bhi thik thak hai koi hamme pehchaan bhi nahi payega..........aur kuch mandir aur gurudwaro mai bhi ho ayenge....aur asliyat bhi pata chal jayegi.......

rhetoric nahi hai........sachh bol rha hu mera hamesha se pakistan jane ka mann hai app ke saath aur achha rahega dono side of story jatland parr share karenge............

भाई विचार अछा है और आप से पहले मैं सोच रहा हूँ जाने का, मेरे दोस्त भी है कराची और लाहौर मैं जो साथ पढ़े , पर शायद आप को पता नहो पाक और हिंदुस्तान मैं लोग एस एही नहीं घूम सकते, आप को वीसा मिल्लत है शेत्र के लिए जहां आप की पहचान वाला कोई हो, और अप को रोज़ थाने मैं हाजरी लगनी पड़ती है | जिस शेत्र का वीसा आपके पास है वहां से आप बहार नहीं जा सकते, तो भाई विचार अछा है और मैं तैयार भी हूँ पर हकीकत मैं नहीं हो पायेगा

 

[rathiji]

आप और यहाँ भतेरे लोग भी तो हिंदुस्तान से दुखी है, वो भी आप जैसी सोच वाले होंगे ...

Vikas bhai,

Hum hindustan se nahi kuch bahut hi thode se Hindustanio se dukhi hai ....

 

[cooljat]

There's a Hindu Jat from Pakistan here on Jatland. His name is Mr. Legha if I remember well, would be good if you take first hand information from him. Just dig his old posts and read yourself if you can.

I have a friend(Indian) who married a Hindu from Pakistan and living in Canada. Her husbands family lives in Karachi and have heard that there is no problem as it is shown. So a first hand account.

 

[rathiji]

Friends,

A new incidence of Pseudo-secularism and dirty vote bank politics. The west Bengal govt. withdrawn cases from muslims who attacked and abused Taslima Nasreen. They were also booked for rioting as they vandalised & rampaged city to protest against her. The cars were smashed, stones were pelted & policemen were beaten in Kolkata ??The charges were of riots, vanadalising public property & even attempt to murder. The reason govt. given in court is that it is just a legal gesture to the weaker section (minority).

The main accused name was Idris Ali with 20 others accused. Here is the report

http://www.bharatchannels.com/newsx...ignores-law-for-minority-video_14de1eb3e.html

Only newX is showing this news n no other channel.

 

[swaich]

your welcome Swaich.


Again a piece of sheer ignorance and less knowledge from you. Malaysia is a federal constitutional monarchy which gurantees the freedom of religion so no question. Indonesian constitution also stipulate freedom of religion. Now about Dubai,i.e, UAE this gurudwara was bulit only a few years ago and I am the one who followed this event and contributed to the cause. The land was given by govt. to build the compound but it's the govt which subsidises 95% of mosques and there is a ban on non muslims for proselytising n distributing religious text. So is this the same respect to Hinduism and Sikhism ? Pakistan, I dont think I need to tell you about the state of minorities there including Hindu,Sikh,Christian,Bahai, Ahmedi. Abdus Salam one out of two muslim scientists who ever won nobel prize was insulted like anything coz he was a Ahmedi. Iran, The religion, politics, civil code everything is Islamlic(shitte) and these gurudwaras which are listed in Wikipedia doesn't exist. Moreover the supreme leader is always a Shia Iman and read his views on ur nation . Khameni

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...r-backs-Kashmir-struggle/Article1-628346.aspx

I will be grateful to u if u cud atleast give the same exaggerated list of Hindu dieties temples too in those countries which are Islamic by constitution.


Banning beef means not killing one animal to eat and stoning to death means killing a fellow human being for so called morals.



That's why Shiv Sena is not a pan-indian party even with majority of population as Hindu. You know the difference between state and individual. State means the constitution and govt. following it and legal framework enforcing. Is it the same in case of Shiv Sena ???


I am not making any distinction. The countries which are Islamic by constitution and export Islamic extremism and terrorism I am talking about them only.


Just take it as facts.

Yes, All Islamic countries have moral police. Islamic countries doesn't means muslims in majority it means constitutionaly Islamic. Like India ia Hindu in majority but it is not a Hindu country.

Yes, All Islamic countries have laws and even extremists and terrorists supported by those laws who insults n prohibit other religions specially hinduism.

Yes, All Islamic countries don't allow non-muslims to build their places of worship.


Long live the dream.

I have shown you examples of Islamic countries including Iran, UAE and Pakistan having Gurudwaras. Doesn't matter if it was recently built or not. I am not going to educate you anymore. Please dig up your own info on temples in these countries.

The point I have been making repeatedly is that, its all about interpretation. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based on the Ol Testament. The former two have also passed through phases where their followers used them for violent means (some will say they still are), but it appears many followers of Islam are still caught in a violent spiral. We can debate why this is the case or not, but that also means Islam is as bad as Judaism or Christianity.

 

[swaich]

As has been pointed out by Sumit, innocent non-muslims have been killed in Nairobi and Pakistan by Muslim fanatics.

My question still remains: If the Holy Quran preaches peace, why do its followers all across the world kill innocent non-muslims in the name of religion. My question is for all those who talk of Islam being a religion of peace. At this moment, I have not taken any position and would like to analyze this phenomenon threadbare with an open mind.

Abhik, thats a valid question, but none of us here are qualified enough to talk about what the original teachings of Islam are as well as we could do for Hinduism or Sikhism in some cases. We have neither studied nor tried to understand the teachings completely. We simply base our opinions or judgements on the religion based on the actions of its followers. If followers decided the goodness or evil of a religion, I don't know if we will find any goodness in any religion of the world.

If you'd notice, Desi, Atish and I have been saying that we can't condemn Islam based on the actions of its followers. We also cannot say for sure that its a peaceful religion. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle or maybe, as I reckon, no one here knows the real truth and it will vary from one person to another.

 

[swaich]

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its
votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in
a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic
apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident
habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of
commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the
followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that
in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine,
must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of
Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
influence of the religion paralyses the social development of
those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from
being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing
faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa,
raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that
Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the
science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization
of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient
Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition,
Vol. II, pages 248-50 London)



"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog." - Churchill

Churchill also said "India is as much a country as the equator. Its just a loose geographic entity" I am sure that wont go down well with the Hindu Nationalists aka the only patriots.

 

[shekharjat]

भाई विचार अछा है और आप से पहले मैं सोच रहा हूँ जाने का, मेरे दोस्त भी है कराची और लाहौर मैं जो साथ पढ़े , पर शायद आप को पता नहो पाक और हिंदुस्तान मैं लोग एस एही नहीं घूम सकते, आप को वीसा मिल्लत है शेत्र के लिए जहां आप की पहचान वाला कोई हो, और अप को रोज़ थाने मैं हाजरी लगनी पड़ती है | जिस शेत्र का वीसा आपके पास है वहां से आप बहार नहीं जा सकते, तो भाई विचार अछा है और मैं तैयार भी हूँ पर हकीकत मैं नहीं हो पायेगा

koi baat nahi roj thane chale jayenge........aur tourist visa to mil sakta hai na.....arrre jab papppi jhappi ka season ayega.........bonhomie hoyegi dono desho mai........i hope 2-4 saal mai...hallat thik ho to cricket diplomacy ke sahare hum bhi chale chalenge.......

 

[rajpaldular]

अमेरिका में आर्मी को योग सिखाया जाता है और यही योग भारत में हो तो साम्प्रदायिक कहलाता है।

 

[rathiji]

I have shown you examples of Islamic countries including Iran, UAE and Pakistan having Gurudwaras. Doesn't matter if it was recently built or not. I am not going to educate you anymore. Please dig up your own info on temples in these countries.

I understand u couldn't or didn't answer the series of facts shown to you and escaped many questions. If IRAN,UAE & PAKISTAN provide as much a religious freedom to minorities compared to non muslim countries give to muslims, the credit goes to you for the biggest joke of modern world. If anyone dig the history or land of these countries , they will find horrible minority persecution which is still going on.

The point I have been making repeatedly is that, its all about interpretation. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based on the Ol Testament. The former two have also passed through phases where their followers used them for violent means (some will say they still are), but it appears many followers of Islam are still caught in a violent spiral. We can debate why this is the case or not, but that also means Islam is as bad as Judaism or Christianity.

The facts can be countered with facts not with emotional escape routes. What we see is what we perceive. 2000 years back christians were crusaders , what to do they are civilized now in my lifetime. If all muslim countries shun violence & respect humanity irrespective of religion, then no problem. I am concerned about present day threat which appears here & there everyday. Do you think if X religion in history did violent persecution there was no one to oppose ? People always contribute to this world in their lifetime some by supporting or doing violence and some by opposing or oppressing it .

By the way who told you that Christianity,Islam & Judaism all are based on old testament ? I am not a religious scholar but a student of comparative religions. That will be good if you provide some facts to back your claim.

I am not going to educate you anymore. Please dig up your own info on temples in these countries.

Don't educate me , do it to yourself. So that next time you can come up with facts to back urself.

 

[swaich]

I understand u couldn't or didn't answer the series of facts shown to you and escaped many questions. If IRAN,UAE & PAKISTAN provide as much a religious freedom to minorities compared to non muslim countries give to muslims, the credit goes to you for the biggest joke of modern world. If anyone dig the history or land of these countries , they will find horrible minority persecution which is still going on.

Let me be the joker and you can be the learned one. You spoke about non-Islamic religions as banned in Islamic countries, no buildings, police breaking idols in homes (you aren't a bad joker yourself) and I showed you evidence refuting this. Persecution is everywhere.

The facts can be countered with facts not with emotional escape routes. What we see is what we perceive. 2000 years back christians were crusaders , what to do they are civilized now in my lifetime. If all muslim countries shun violence & respect humanity irrespective of religion, then no problem. I am concerned about present day threat which appears here & there everyday. Do you think if X religion in history did violent persecution there was no one to oppose ? People always contribute to this world in their lifetime some by supporting or doing violence and some by opposing or oppressing it .

This does tell me how much you know about history. Christianity began 2000 years ago. Crusades happened barely 700 years back. Christians were burning witches and heretics 500 years back. Every religion has had its share of violence. One has to look at the entirety of a religion before condemning it.

By the way who told you that Christianity,Islam & Judaism all are based on old testament ? I am not a religious scholar but a student of comparative religions. That will be good if you provide some facts to back your claim.

Why do you think they are called Abrahamic faiths? Maybe you missed that in your course on comparative religions.

Don't educate me , do it to yourself. So that next time you can come up with facts to back urself.

I have seen that facts dont help you much, so I am not going to try the next time.

 

[rathiji]

Let me be the joker and you can be the learned one. You spoke about non-Islamic religions as banned in Islamic countries, no buildings, police breaking idols in homes (you aren't a bad joker yourself) and I showed you evidence refuting this. Persecution is everywhere.

Ah! I provided you one chapter of MUTAWEEN to start with . You read that and ignored it by saying a mere presence of moral policing in some ISLAMIC nations. Did you show me some facts ? Oh! yes a list of Gurudwaras from Wikipedia even incomplete without Temples, Churches & Synagouges no homework , on top of that it doesn't matter to you when they got constructed or destroyed. That's great, lets talk about one more pillar of religious freedom in the countries you are defending. The choice of choosing faith by wish.

Apostasy , meaning renunciation of a religion or choosing another one. According to united nations,

The United nations commission on Human Rights, considers the recanting of a person's religion a Human Right legally protected by the International covenant on civil & political rights.

According to individuals believing in humanity like me and all others hope you also as u defending the cause , everyone is free to choose his/her religion. Now,

There are 20 countries across the globe prohibited its citizens from apostasy. The following are the nations that treat apostasy under their criminal laws.

• Iran – illegal (death penalty)[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
• Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)[SUP][/SUP]
• Pakistan – illegal (death penalty[SUP][/SUP] since 2007)
• United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)[SUP][/SUP]
• Somalia – illegal (death penalty)[SUP][/SUP]
• Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
• Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
• Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
• Qatar – illegal (death penalty)[SUP][/SUP]
• Yemen – illegal (death penalty)[SUP][/SUP]
• Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
• Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)[SUP][/SUP]
• Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)[SUP][/SUP]
• Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
• Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child[SUP][/SUP]

[SUP]
Note: This law is applicable only when someone leaves ISLAM for another religion , vice-versa is okay for all these countries
[/SUP]
Is this the freedom of religion you are trying to defend ? Would you like INDIA or USA to provide same freedom of religion to its minorities ? I think if we can get some more intellectuals supporting this as u supported this would resolve all the problems in INDIA also.

You raised some more points of Abhramic faith , one of my favourite topic , I can never miss that in course and will not let anyone miss . First, lets conclude this Islamic countries freedom of religion we will discuss that too.

 

[abhikrana]

I agree that none of us have read and mastered the holy book to talk about the teachings.

You also rightly said that our judgments on religion are based on the action of the followers. And with all the killings of innocents across the world, you obviously know what people think of this faith.

However, the moot point remains - how come the interpretation of the Holy Quran is so highly flawed all across the world that their Holy war is against the innocents including children, women, the elderly???? Can such a wide cross-section of people spread across the globe be wrong in their interpretation????

My only contention is that before equating one faith with another, we need to first get deep into it, its shortcomings, plus points etc. By brainstorming further, I would like to prove myself wrong - the belief that all religions do not preach peace.

At the same time, I can confidently say for Hinduism and Sikhism that these are religions of peace. They exist for mankind and its betterment. In Hinduism, no one is killed if one wishes to renounce his religion/faith.

Abhik, thats a valid question, but none of us here are qualified enough to talk about what the original teachings of Islam are as well as we could do for Hinduism or Sikhism in some cases. We have neither studied nor tried to understand the teachings completely. We simply base our opinions or judgements on the religion based on the actions of its followers. If followers decided the goodness or evil of a religion, I don't know if we will find any goodness in any religion of the world.

If you'd notice, Desi, Atish and I have been saying that we can't condemn Islam based on the actions of its followers. We also cannot say for sure that its a peaceful religion. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle or maybe, as I reckon, no one here knows the real truth and it will vary from one person to another.

 

[singhvp]

I have a friend(Indian) who married a Hindu from Pakistan and living in Canada. Her husbands family lives in Karachi and have heard that there is no problem as it is shown. So a first hand account.

Vikas, there could be some exaggeration in media reports but things are not as cozy as in India, if the narraton of Mr. Legha (a member on this site) is to be believed. Our country is the best place in the world where minorities enjoy the maximum freedom and dignity.

 

[desijat]

I agree, it is similar to the propoganda carried by their meida for Indian muslims

Vikas, there could be some exaggeration in media reports but things are not as cozy as in India, if the narraton of Mr. Legha (a member on this site) is to be believed.

 

[swaich]

Vikas, there could be some exaggeration in media reports but things are not as cozy as in India, if the narraton of Mr. Legha (a member on this site) is to be believed. Our country is the best place in the world where minorities enjoy the maximum freedom and dignity.

Pakistan may not be a safe place for minorities but we are no heaven either. We have a long way to go before we can lose prejudices in state institutions, political groups and common people against minorities. We have an inclination to jump into mindless communal violence every few years with after effects that linger on for decades. This situation is made worse by our collective amnesia.


P.S. For true patriots aka Hindu nationalists, minorities above can mean all groups who are lesser in number than the majority religious group. Yes, that means Hindus in Muslim, Sikh, Christian majority areas.

 

[swaich]

Ah! I provided you one chapter of MUTAWEEN to start with . You read that and ignored it by saying a mere presence of moral policing in some ISLAMIC nations. Did you show me some facts ? Oh! yes a list of Gurudwaras from Wikipedia even incomplete without Temples, Churches & Synagouges no homework , on top of that it doesn't matter to you when they got constructed or destroyed. That's great, lets talk about one more pillar of religious freedom in the countries you are defending. The choice of choosing faith by wish.

Apostasy , meaning renunciation of a religion or choosing another one. According to united nations,

The United nations commission on Human Rights, considers the recanting of a person's religion a Human Right legally protected by the International covenant on civil & political rights.

According to individuals believing in humanity like me and all others hope you also as u defending the cause , everyone is free to choose his/her religion. Now,

There are 20 countries across the globe prohibited its citizens from apostasy. The following are the nations that treat apostasy under their criminal laws.

• Iran – illegal (death penalty)
• Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)
• Pakistan – illegal (death penalty since 2007)
• United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)
• Somalia – illegal (death penalty)
• Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)
• Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)
• Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)
• Qatar – illegal (death penalty)
• Yemen – illegal (death penalty)
• Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)
• Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)
• Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)
• Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy
• Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child

[SUP]
Note: This law is applicable only when someone leaves ISLAM for another religion , vice-versa is okay for all these countries
[/SUP]
Is this the freedom of religion you are trying to defend ? Would you like INDIA or USA to provide same freedom of religion to its minorities ? I think if we can get some more intellectuals supporting this as u supported this would resolve all the problems in INDIA also.

You raised some more points of Abhramic faith , one of my favourite topic , I can never miss that in course and will not let anyone miss . First, lets conclude this Islamic countries freedom of religion we will discuss that too.

Let me say first hand I do not condone law against apostasy. One should be free to leave and choose any religion when he/she pleases.

Now, for the umpteenth time, let me elucidate my argument again as you are going to go around in circles-

Bad deeds of followers, nations (with justification from holy books) /= Bad religion