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Haryana Girl Tops Indian Civil Services Exams 2011
- Thread starter drrajpalsingh
- Start date
drrajpalsingh
New member
yeh ek dimaki kida h... jo kuch n kuch karwata rhta h,,,
Friend,
Not clear where is 'kira' and in whose 'Dimak'?
What message do you have in mind, come out please.
Regards
drrajpalsingh
New member
Will update you with some substantial content in due course. Before that I would like to cite opinion from a former IAS officer(Sanjeev Sabhlok) who left his job when he found that he is contributing to a corrupt system. He is currently working with Victorian Government in Australia(Melbourne). He has written very good eye opener articles about our our outdated bureaucracy(Indian Civil Services).
A must read book: http://sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/book1/BFN-fullbook.pdf
Building a New Bureaucracy for India
http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/05/building-a-new-bureaucracy-for-india/
One more:
IAS – the enemy of India
There is a word of caution I thought I'd share with those who are aspiring to join the IAS and other civil services in India – that they will effectively become ENEMIES of the Indian people. There is virtually no way to escape from that outcome.
We DO NOT need the IAS. It is a DISASTER. We need a merit-based contractual appointment system. The IAS is poison for India. With a modern administrative system India will do FAR better. And, of course, we need excellent politicians as well. (readhttp://bfn.sabhlokcity.com/)
[Those who join the IAS are] the implicit SUPPORTERS of corruption and socialism.
[Those who want to join the IAS] must closely watch out for the 'system'. If you allow yourself to be co-opted and therefore serve the corrupt, you will become the enemy of the people.
My two queries:
In the world does there exist any country where there is no bureaucracy!
Sould the Indian system of governance mended or ended!
Thanks.
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I nowhere said that we do not need a bureaucracy. Let me clear my stand on this topic. Though you have asked only two question, I have many questions for your 2 questions as answer.My two queries:
In the world does there exist any country where there is no bureaucracy!
Sould the Indian system of governance mended or ended!
Thanks.
Problem with recruitment:
Main Questions : What essay writing has to do with administration? Say, I am good at writing, does that mean that I am good at administration? What skills sets are required for an administrative officer? Does skills set required for administration are the same as required for a taxation officer/foreign services/Police Officer/Traffic Control Officer etc. If not then why only one exam is conducted for all these services?
Lets say I choose Chemistry as main subject in Civil Services examination, and I score very good marks in that subject. Does that mean I have a good knowledge of Taxation? Does that mean I have a good knowledge of Foreign Policies? Do we see same hiring process in Private Sector?
For a senior position, have you seen any private company hiring graduates who have no knowledge/experience of skills set required for that position.
Does this type of recruitment process exist in any developed country. Well I have not come across any. I have not seen any graduate passing from university, gets a senior position(Like IAS/IFS/IRS) without having any experience in that field. Why there is an age limit into civil services?
Other questions:
Why each position is not open to the market? Why a secretary to government must be an IAS officer? What ensures that spending 20 years in a service(As a IAS officer) means that person is suitable to for the position of secretary. What about the subject matter expert(SME's) in private sector who get recruited based upon their excellence. Do you think IAS officer who has spent 20 years in the services has more knowledge than a subject matter expert?
World has become so dynamic and agile nowadays that even Big MNC's like Yahoo, Google find it hard to compete in the market. These companies may become obsolete in coming future. Then how can we say that an IAS officer who spent 20 years in an outdated model is best and suited person for the position of secretary? Why this position is not open for everyone in the current market?
Why an officer get promotion based upon number of years spent into public service. Why public service jobs are permanent? No developed country offers permanent positions like India. No developed country has an automated process of promotion based upon seniority. Why it is so hard to fire an non performer IAS officer? Since India's independence, no IAS has been fired based upon his performance. In fact these people get promotions after some time frame.
Now you have asked : Sould the Indian system of governance mended or ended!
My answer is, current system of governance should be ended and it requires a complete new start. I will write about system of governance later as this topic is very big.
Rajpal sir,there is so much to write about this "Indian Civil Services". Sanjeev has rightly said, We DO NOT need the IAS. It is a DISASTER. We need a merit-based contractual appointment system. The IAS is poison for India. [Those who join the IAS are] the implicit SUPPORTERS of corruption and socialism.
drrajpalsingh
New member
I nowhere said that we do not need a bureaucracy. Let me clear my stand on this topic. Though you have asked only two question, I have many questions for your 2 questions as answer. ......Now you have asked : Sould the Indian system of governance mended or ended!
My answer is, current system of governance should be ended and it requires a complete new start. I will write about system of governance later as this topic is very big.
Rajpal sir,there is so much to write about this "Indian Civil Services". Sanjeev has rightly said, We DO NOT need the IAS. It is a DISASTER. We need a merit-based contractual appointment system. The IAS is poison for India. [Those who join the IAS are] the implicit SUPPORTERS of corruption and socialism.
Friend,
The queries were meant to further stimulate discussion on the topic and nothing more. And, I am happy that we are going to get good feed back in this line as you are going to oblige us by sharing with us what you feel/think on the issue. please do not take it as personal issue between you and me; we are just discussing the system.
As regards comments of Mr. Sanjeev Sablok on the issue, they can be looked into while taking recourse to administrative reforms.
Friend there is a plethora of literature available on the need of reforming administration.
To my mind, the system could be and should be mended to suit the changed demands of the present day India and cannot be done away with completely.
regards.
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Friend,
The queries were meant to further stimulate discussion on the topic and nothing more. And, I am happy that we are going to get good feed back in this line as you are going to oblige us by sharing with us what you feel/think on the issue. please do not take it as personal issue between you and me; we are just discussing the system.
As regards comments of Mr. Sanjeev Sablok on the issue, they can be looked into while taking recourse to administrative reforms.
Friend there is a plethora of literature available on the need of reforming administration.
To my mind, the system could be and should be mended to suit the changed demands of the present day India and cannot be done away with completely.
regards.
Respected Sir,
I do not have any personal issue with you. I have issues with governance system in India. I have issues with Indian Civil Services.
I wrote what I know and What I have learned. Lot to cover on this topic. I will write further upon our outdated "Civil Services", a British legacy which is a 1850 Model and has not gone through any reform. Now this powerful lobby is screwing India very badly. To remove these crocodiles out of the system is an uphill task. Public awareness and education is must so that people understand what damage these arrogant, inefficient people are doing to India.
Regards,
Awesome n' apt reply !
I nowhere said that we do not need a bureaucracy. Let me clear my stand on this topic. Though you have asked only two question, I have many questions for your 2 questions as answer.
Problem with recruitment:
Main Questions : What essay writing has to do with administration? Say, I am good at writing, does that mean that I am good at administration? What skills sets are required for an administrative officer? Does skills set required for administration are the same as required for a taxation officer/foreign services/Police Officer/Traffic Control Officer etc. If not then why only one exam is conducted for all these services?
Lets say I choose Chemistry as main subject in Civil Services examination, and I score very good marks in that subject. Does that mean I have a good knowledge of Taxation? Does that mean I have a good knowledge of Foreign Policies? Do we see same hiring process in Private Sector?
For a senior position, have you seen any private company hiring graduates who have no knowledge/experience of skills set required for that position.
Does this type of recruitment process exist in any developed country. Well I have not come across any. I have not seen any graduate passing from university, gets a senior position(Like IAS/IFS/IRS) without having any experience in that field. Why there is an age limit into civil services?
Other questions:
Why each position is not open to the market? Why a secretary to government must be an IAS officer? What ensures that spending 20 years in a service(As a IAS officer) means that person is suitable to for the position of secretary. What about the subject matter expert(SME's) in private sector who get recruited based upon their excellence. Do you think IAS officer who has spent 20 years in the services has more knowledge than a subject matter expert?
World has become so dynamic and agile nowadays that even Big MNC's like Yahoo, Google find it hard to compete in the market. These companies may become obsolete in coming future. Then how can we say that an IAS officer who spent 20 years in an outdated model is best and suited person for the position of secretary? Why this position is not open for everyone in the current market?
Why an officer get promotion based upon number of years spent into public service. Why public service jobs are permanent? No developed country offers permanent positions like India. No developed country has an automated process of promotion based upon seniority. Why it is so hard to fire an non performer IAS officer? Since India's independence, no IAS has been fired based upon his performance. In fact these people get promotions after some time frame.
Now you have asked : Sould the Indian system of governance mended or ended!
My answer is, current system of governance should be ended and it requires a complete new start. I will write about system of governance later as this topic is very big.
Rajpal sir,there is so much to write about this "Indian Civil Services". Sanjeev has rightly said, We DO NOT need the IAS. It is a DISASTER. We need a merit-based contractual appointment system. The IAS is poison for India. [Those who join the IAS are] the implicit SUPPORTERS of corruption and socialism.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Respected Sir,
I do not have any personal issue with you. I have issues with governance system in India. I have issues with Indian Civil Services.
I wrote what I know and What I have learned. Lot to cover on this topic. I will write further upon our outdated "Civil Services", a British legacy which is a 1850 Model and has not gone through any reform. Now this powerful lobby is screwing India very badly. To remove these crocodiles out of the system is an uphill task. Public awareness and education is must so that people understand what damage these arrogant, inefficient people are doing to India.
Regards,
Friend.
Over the years reforms have been made in the 1773 based system of modern governing machinery and also the ICS/IAS has also gone sea changes. Even afterr Independence much has been done in this regard. But there remains always scope for further improvement.
I am in full agreement with you about the need of the reforms rather overhauling of the system.
I do not see anything frightening or 'awesome' in your earlier post too as a friend has mentioned in another post.
we are not here for one-up-man-ship but discussing academically a very important issue.
Regards
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Friend.
Over the years reforms have been made in the 1773 based system of modern governing machinery and also the ICS/IAS has also gone sea changes. Even afterr Independence much has been done in this regard. But there remains always scope for further improvement.
I am in full agreement with you about the need of the reforms rather overhauling of the system.
I do not see anything frightening or 'awesome' in your earlier post too as a friend has mentioned in another post.
we are not here for one-up-man-ship but discussing academically a very important issue.
Regards
Respected Sir,
Slight reform here and there does not mean that we have done some considerable amount of work. And that does not mean that little more effort on the same lines will make it an efficient bureaucracy. When the base of a system is not right then it's good to have an overhaul rather than doing "fixing". If the problem is at core then fix(Reform) does not help much to get rid of problems.
Regards,
malikdeepak1
New member
Respected Sir,
Slight reform here and there does not mean that it we have done some considerable amount of work. And that does not mean that little more effort on the same lines will make it an efficient bureaucracy. When the base of a system is not right then it's good have an overhaul rather than making "fixing". If the problem is at core than fix is not enough to get rid of problem.
Correct!
One fix leads to another problem and another fix to that will lead to another problem. A fix is never an apt solution. System needs to be redesigned to get away with fixes. And how it should be done, is a point to be discussed.
anilsangwan
Active member
बिलकुल ठीक उसी तरह जैसे रोड पे थेक्ली-म-थेक्ली होए रह्य करें पी डब्लू डी आले.... एर पूरा रोड टूट जाया करे...... आर आखिर में नया रोड बनाना पड्या करे .....वा इ हालत हो री स देश की...Correct!
One fix leads to another problem and another fix to that will lead to another problem. A fix is never an apt solution. System needs to be redesigned to get away with fixes. And how it should be done, is a point to be discussed.
System needs to be redesigned to get away with fixes. And how it should be done, is a point to be discussed.
I think Sanjeev's idea can give us a good start in that direction. He has tremendous experience(18 Years as IAS Officer) of working in Indian Bureaucracy and also a considerable experience of working in Australian bureaucracy.
So he knows the bottlenecks in Indian bureaucracy. I think practical experience has an edge over academic knowledge.
His views are very pragmatic and if implemented, can make a significant impact on the performance of Indian bureaucracy.
From my little knowledge and experience, I think he has nailed down the mechanism required to make an efficient bureaucracy.
I know its a very big topic and it should not be like "my way or highway". But Sanjeev's views could be a good starting point.
There is sharp contrast in the efficiency between two bureaucratic models.
Having said that, Like India, Australia is also a Westminster system. So i think our system may have the same attributes as of Australian bureaucratic model.
Please read the content from link below:
http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/05/building-a-new-bureaucracy-for-india/
Building a New Bureaucracy for India
I must unfortunately conclude that our British India bureaucratic system is beyond resuscitation; it has terminal ailments and can’t be resuscitated. It needs a total rebuild, from ground up. It has to be dismantled and a new public service system erected to replace it. With political commitment, such a reconstruction should be possible within five years as detailed in Chapter 6. I highlight the key changes needed at this stage.
Friend.
Over the years reforms have been made in the 1773 based system of modern governing machinery and also the ICS/IAS has also gone sea changes. Even afterr Independence much has been done in this regard. But there remains always scope for further improvement.I am in full agreement with you about the need of the reforms rather overhauling of the system.
Respected Sir,
I invite you to shed some light on reforms we had in Indian Civil Services since India's independence.
Further to that, what has led us to such a collapse in our bureaucratic machinery that we are rated poorest in Asia in terms of efficiency.
If had reform in the past then why our bureaucracy is worst in Asia?
The question whether we need a reform or an overhaul is a moot point and can be discussed based upon fellow members inputs. Having said, our aim is discuss what is required to make our bureaucracy best in world.
Regards
drrajpalsingh
New member
Respected Sir,
I invite you to shed some light on reforms we had in Indian Civil Services since India's independence.
Further to that, what has led us to such a collapse in our bureaucratic machinery that we are rated poorest in Asia in terms of efficiency.
If had reform in the past then why our bureaucracy is worst in Asia?
The question whether we need a reform or an overhaul is a moot point and can be discussed based upon fellow members inputs. Having said, our aim is discuss what is required to make our bureaucracy best in world.
Regards
Dear Friend,
I agree on the dire need of reforms in the Indian Administrative system and the reform demand is not new one.
For committees and commissions which have been made and submitted their findings or reports so far on the issue kindly log on:
[PDF]
Digital Repository of Reports of Committees/Commissions on ...
www.irtsa.net/pdfdocs/Repository_of_Reports.pdf
This site contains 74 such documents running in hundreds of pages each.
Regards and thanks.
Dear Friend,
I agree on the dire need of reforms in the Indian Administrative system and the reform demand is not new one.
For committees and commissions which have been made and submitted their findings or reports so far on the issue kindly log on:
[PDF]
Digital Repository of Reports of Committees/Commissions on ...
www.irtsa.net/pdfdocs/Repository_of_Reports.pdf
This site contains 74 such documents running in hundreds of pages each.
Regards and thanks.
Thanks for the link. I read committee report on Civil Services reforms drafted back in 2004. (http://www.cgg.gov.in/workingpapers/CivilServicesReform.pdf)
It recognizes the factors we have discussed above that are hampering the performance of "Indian Civil Services".
However nothing has progressed as outlined in the draft report. So I cannot say we had any substantial reforms in Civil Services.
It seems that report has stuck into "Red Tape".
The other point is why it took so many years to realize that we need something new. What is stopping them to implement this.
I also do not agree with our "Centralized System" where discretionary powers have been awarded to IAS officers. There is no balance between "Centralized and Decentralized system ".
Dear Friend,
I agree on the dire need of reforms in the Indian Administrative system and the reform demand is not new one.
For committees and commissions which have been made and submitted their findings or reports so far on the issue kindly log on:
[PDF]
Digital Repository of Reports of Committees/Commissions on ...
www.irtsa.net/pdfdocs/Repository_of_Reports.pdf
This site contains 74 such documents running in hundreds of pages each.
Regards and thanks.
One more report on Civil Service Examination. http://darpg.nic.in/darpgwebsite_cms/Document/file/ExaminationReviewCommittee2001.pdf
Hard to read from this link (Report itself became a victim of inefficient bureaucracy).
Report again talks about what we have discussed in this thread about IAS exam but again nothing has been implemented yet. So I cannot say its a reform.
dahiyavijay7
New member
Rightly said, brain drain from medical to bureaucratic positions needs to be immediately addressed by the policy makers.
ऐसा सोचना शायद ठीक नहीं है के डॉक्टर के IAS बन जाने से brain drain हो रहा है या डॉक्टर इंजिनियर को IAS बन ने से रोकना चाहिए | DOCTOR, TEACHER को तो पेशेवर होना ही नहीं चाहिए | जो व्यक्ति डॉक्टरी के पढाई करके IAS की नौकरी चुनता है उसका मतलब है की उसे पैसे और प्रशासनिक शक्ति का मोह है ऐसा व्यक्ति डॉक्टर बनाने लायक हे नहीं है |
drrajpalsingh
New member
ऐसा सोचना शायद ठीक नहीं है के डॉक्टर के IAS बन जाने से brain drain हो रहा है या डॉक्टर इंजिनियर को IAS बन ने से रोकना चाहिए | DOCTOR, TEACHER को तो पेशेवर होना ही नहीं चाहिए | जो व्यक्ति डॉक्टरी के पढाई करके IAS की नौकरी चुनता है उसका मतलब है की उसे पैसे और प्रशासनिक शक्ति का मोह है ऐसा व्यक्ति डॉक्टर बनाने लायक हे नहीं है |
Dahiya Sahib,
AAP APNI IS POST KO DUBARA PARH KAR BATLANE KA KAST KAREIN KEE AAP ISMEIN KYA KAHANA CHAHTE HAIN.
Thanks.
drrajpalsingh
New member
One more report on Civil Service Examination. http://darpg.nic.in/darpgwebsite_cms/Document/file/ExaminationReviewCommittee2001.pdf
Hard to read from this link (Report itself became a victim of inefficient bureaucracy).
Report again talks about what we have discussed in this thread about IAS exam but again nothing has been implemented yet. So I cannot say its a reform.
Friend,
None can deny changes and reforms in administration in India. However with the advent of transparency, demand for and expectations from administration have taken quantum jump, so further reforms in the delivery system of services is the need of the hour.
Regards