haryanavi the crudest dialect on this planet.

[raj_rathee]

Rathi Bhai,

If Urdu is good for gazals and shairee, english is good for technical writing. Think of medicine being taught in Hindi or Haryanvi... This can be illustrated further by comparing with computer languages I suppose. So in conclusion, Haryan serves its purpose for the people who speak it and for the purpose they speak it. It coveys the message most effectively....same thing can not be conveyed so effectively in Urdu.

RK^2

Chaccha, I don't think there is anything inherent in the languages that gives
them one quality or another. It may seem that way because of the language
spoken by the originating innovators.

I do not think there is anything inherent in English language that makes it better
suited for science and technology. Rather, it just so happens that it is the
language of those people who have in recent times become the foremost
innovators in science and technology, namely the English speaking world. So
it seems that way. The terminology for modern day computer science
has been coined in English, and hence it seems that English is the most
appropriate language for it. Had it been coined in Haryanvi, it would have
seemed that English is awkward for it.

I think the same goes for Ghazals and so on.....

If it were provably true that merely speaking a langauge makes us better suited
to some skill set, than that would infact be quite a remarkable discovery. If
speaking Urdu were to make us better at all things of the heart (for instance),
and speaking Haryanvi makes us better at all things related to valour
and courage, or speaking Hindi/Sanskrit were to make us great thinkers in
spiritual matters...then I'd say that would indeed be fascinating and would
dictate the language we'd need to learn for the direction we want to go into.

 

[raj_rathee]

But then perhaps a haryanvi speaking jat who is conditioned and adapted to a different , more ‘sophisticated' environment might end up speaking very refined urdu and still harsh haryanvi.

Well yes, we already know that to be true I suppose. We all speak English..and
those of us living in foreigh lands for some time, can speak it with the
same mannerisms, tone and inflections as the native speakers.

Yet when we speak Haryanvi we speak it in the same "dhansu" manner
as we have always done (and on purpose most of the time).

I guess there are a lot of "chicken and egg" issues here.

I suppose in practical terms we need to ask ourselves if our "langauge" is
limiting us in anyway. Does it limit our ability to think intellectually ? How
much of a barrier is it when we interact with outsiders and so on.

But then again this whole issue becomes pretty moot in this modern age
when we are becoming multi-lingual. Most of us will now speak
Hindi, English and Haryanvi and that should cover a broad spectrum
of our needs.

So in practical terms, like Chachka RK said, choose the langauge for the
desired purpose. In the mean time language/neuro-science researchers
can figure out of if the language itself provides us with any enhanced abilities in
selected fields of endeavor.

 

[poonam]

In the mean time language/neuro-science researchers
can figure out of if the language itself provides us with any enhanced abilities in
selected fields of endeavor.

I doubt that!!

{per kuchh na bera ho bhi sake sae....in chinese ne dekh lyo....shuu shaa kare jaa sae...err saare ke phail reh sae...you name any dome they are there... }

 

[raj_rathee]

I doubt that!!

You never know ! Personally, I wouldn't be so sceptical.

But let me add something to my own post.

It is true that science and knowledge is built on the existing foundations
of science and knowledge. Most research is incremental. We use what we know
already to look for new knowledge. And our knowledge and our practice of
it is often in the language in which the previous knowledge was based. Hence,
when it comes to science we "think and reason" in English these days.

I remeber that I learnt my math tables in Haryanvi (char dunee aath,
non panje puntaales"...unfortunately it stopped at 12...he he he), and to
this day I can only do math in that language (mentally). Can't do it in
English.

I think some Indian philosopher said that we can only think in terms
of what we already know. It is impossible to think something out of the blue
that is not based on existing thoughts/knowledge.
Taking that to be true, Haryanvi suffers from some serious drawbacks...namely
lack of precedent in terms of major science/social intellectual pursuits.

 

[vinodks]

Hi,
I think the impression that Haryanavi is crude is more becuz of tone and implied meaning that speaker intends to convey not the language itself....
but still language itself might inherently have 'coarse' quality affecting perception of listener...
So what if you try to speak in Haryanavi to American who doesn't understand a word and ask is this language sweet or not? I tried that after this post and the guy didn't know what to say... so I think its not just sound or words but meaning, contruction of sentences, choice of words, tone and mood of speaker and speaker's impression on listener etc play bigger... I love Haryanavi and I think it evolved to serve its purpose in culture of which agriculture and wars were main features...

vinod

As a digression:
Finally I strongly disagree with Rajendraji's statement that English is more suited for medicines and technical writing... It seems so becuz all the names were invented by English speaking people and we read these subjects in English from childhood but it ain't so...
The greatest language in world, for all purposes, science or literature, is Sanskrit... Sanskrit was used by Aryabhata, Bhaskar, Varahmihir and lot of other scientist and mathematician to represent mathematical formulae and equation in VERSES till 1200AD

Grammarical rules of Sanskrit have similar structure as computer languages like C, so its also good for computation too.... in fact scientists argue that Backus-Naur Form of programming should be renamed as Backus-Panini Form becuz similar form was invented by the greatest linguist ever, Panini, 2000 years back.... Following article in NATURE gives idea about how sanskrit was used to represent no. and that also in rhythmic and rhymed verses....

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v414/n6866/full/414851a_fs.html

Sorry for digression....

 

[poonam]

You never know ! Personally, I wouldn't be so sceptical.

But let me add something to my own post.

It is true that science and knowledge is built on the existing foundations
of science and knowledge. Most research is incremental. We use what we know
already to look for new knowledge. And our knowledge and our practice of
it is often in the language in which the previous knowledge was based. Hence,
when it comes to science we "think and reason" in English these days.

I remeber that I learnt my math tables in Haryanvi (char dunee aath,
non panje puntaales"...unfortunately it stopped at 12...he he he), and to
this day I can only do math in that language (mentally). Can't do it in
English.

I think some Indian philosopher said that we can only think in terms
of what we already know. It is impossible to think something out of the blue
that is not based on existing thoughts/knowledge.
Taking that to be true, Haryanvi suffers from some serious drawbacks...namely
lack of precedent in terms of major science/social intellectual pursuits.

This discussion can go forever. I’m having some more ideas popping up in my mind .
Per kati saturate ho liye sae.
Language might affect the abilities in some subtle ways but I don’t think on broader spectrum we can speculate any drastic differences in terms of the IQ level , the analytical capabilities and so on. Nevertheless, I guess good idea to do some literature search on this. Would share with you guys if I’ll find something worthwhile.
Eeb jaa soon…..kade mere IQ level pe kuchh asar hoja..

 

[raj_rathee]

Nevertheless, I guess good idea to do some literature search on this. Would share with you guys if I’ll find something worthwhile.
Eeb jaa soon…..kade mere IQ level pe kuchh asar hoja..

Theek sae Daakturnee ji....Kucch literature mein tae bera paatae tae
jaroor bata diyo...lekin the field is really vast and complex...might be
hard to find any answers.....

Mahara IQ level pe tae Jitna asar hona tha ho liye. Iss tae nicche tae dooban ta raha....

 

[raj_rathee]

Hi,
I think the impression that Haryanavi is crude is more becuz of tone and implied meaning that speaker intends to convey not the language itself....
but still language itself might inherently have 'coarse' quality affecting perception of listener...
So what if you try to speak in Haryanavi to American who doesn't understand a word and ask is this language sweet or not? I tried that after this post and the guy didn't know what to say... so I think its not just sound or words but meaning, contruction of sentences, choice of words, tone and mood of speaker and speaker's impression on listener etc play bigger... I love Haryanavi and I think it evolved to serve its purpose in culture of which agriculture and wars were main features...

vinod

There you go ! Our inhouse researcher right on top of things...
Vinod, woh Gora bhaaz kae table ke nicche tae na luk gaya ?

 

[bharatrattan]

Dear Friends,
Apart from these factors, one of the most important considerations is the reputation of its speakers. Their deeds, adventure and misadventure all contribute to how the ‘internal alarm’ is raised when a non Haryanvi speaker hears the 'madhur' Haryanvi.
Along the Delhi Agra railway route, Jat villagers from Brij jump inside the train compartment for their free ride. When the ticket checker ask for the ticket, they reply in haryanvi the essence of which I am only capable of writing in Hindi. They tell, ‘ticket yahhen dekhega ki akele mein dikhayoon?’ And so the checker gets the message.

In a similar way the Head of the Primary Health Centre at Ballabgargh, told the whole class group that Jats were rascals. I had no choice but to chew those bitter words. He told that when Chaudhary Charan Singh became prime minister, the local villagers used to come directly on his table (no OPD, no card, no concept of working hours, they even made him come out of his house in midnight). They often held him by his collars and warned him in true ‘madhur’ haryanvi ‘Beticho… teri Maa Khasa.. kar denge, Chaudhary sahab ka raaj hai…,samjha…’ . After that he made special provision to make the health facility inaccessible to Jats. He avoided establishing DOTS, tuberculosis dispensing centers in Jat villages or established them involving the non-jat members of the same village.

You can not run away from these factors. This may be an exaggeration… only to emphasize that our past has a role in making people interpret our identity, our attitude, and most importantly our language.
Bharat

 

[raj_rathee]

You can not run away from these factors. This may be an exaggeration… only to emphasize that our past has a role in making people interpret our identity, our attitude, and most importantly our language.
Bharat

What you say is very true Bharat, and also a sad reflection on our community
as well.

However, any link with the language itself is dubious.

These are stereotypical impressions that we form based on our experiences. The
langauge itself is irrelevent. The same behaviour could be done by Urdu
speaking individuals and the outcome will be the same. Based on our
experiences our minds "pattern match" our observations into stereotypes.

If we constantly see Blacks on TV in anything criminal. soon we develop
a seterotype about all blacks....and then anything associated with them
reflects in our perception of them.

We get cheated by a Bania once. It's okay. But a few times...and then we
start thinking all Banias are cheaters. And then we start seeing their
"language/dialect" as that of cheaters. If these gangsters start wearing green
clothes everytime and they go smashing stuff and abusing people, then green
clothes will reflect such behaviour.

Remeber Pavlov and his experiments with the dog.....

So the problem in what you describe is not in our language, but in our
people themselves.

 

[bharatrattan]

Dear Raj and other friends,
Continuing from my last thread......
With more and more Jat youths resorting to anti-social activities, this situation is worsening. One of the prime reasons is Lack of education. The conflicts created by slogans of Bravery in our culture force them to join the “gang culture”. With no real material evidence to support the high heads of Jats, the pride has become mockery and they have no choice but to glorify mafia hood and indulge in coercive ways to earn sustenance.
We should not pit ourselves in front of Rajputs, Baniyas and Brahmins. Concocting history and raising banners of "jat mahan, Jat tufan" does not work beyond a certain stage in society.
Our identity is based on the values of an agrarian society, which is universally similar to other such societies. Farmers are by nature rustic, blunt, straightforward, honest and impolitic.


Language is an important aspect of our identity. But we must not let it work against us. If you are at disadvantage be ready to adapt accordingly. You can not force a person to believe that you are polite. My personal experience is that our language is used by reckless goons, resulting in damage to our image. We are considered easy targets that can be made to act by means of provocation. We are considered hostile. If a Jat finds you speaking in soft manner, he will readily pass a remark: doodh nahin piya kya, roti na khayee se ke..
NONSENSE…

We must expunge some of these slogans, which serve the purpose of teasing and insulting others….and prove by our hard work that we remain the most successful invading race in India.
In this modern time good ideas shape the destiny of Individuals. English is the gateway to modern western education on which the academic success heavily depends. We must glorify English and Academics.
Speak what suits the situation.
Regards,
Bharat

 

[raj_rathee]

We must expunge some of these slogans, which serve the purpose of teasing and insulting others….and prove by our hard work that we remain the most successful invading race in India.
In this modern time good ideas shape the destiny of Individuals. English is the gateway to modern western education on which the academic success heavily depends. We must glorify English and Academics.
Speak what suits the situation.
Regards,
Bharat

Dot on target Bharat.

At the end of the day thumping one's own chest serves little purpose other than to
become the source of ridicule and antagonising others. Our deeds and actions
need to be the ultimate language. Success itself will make the language
respected. Its that simple.

And I agree with the English part in toto. Have been advocating this to anyone
who would listen....

If I remember correctly Chautala had raised this...about having English right
from primary level...and the Khaki kacchewaalas and BJP types made
some ruckus. Don't know what happened after that.

These people want all the rest of us to rot in their Sanskrit/Hindi hell, while
they send their kids to posh English medium schools.

 

[sukhbirsingh]

it look bad if somebody say like this about our culture. Well they have not mentioned very good things about haryana, The hospitality of people of haryana and The heart of peoples of haryana and so many lives the peoples of haryana has given for this nation. Well I have e mailed I think they will improve their website. Otherwise if any legal option is their then that can also be tried for such persons because he is humiliating two crores of people by writting like this.

 

[vinodks]

These people want all the rest of us to rot in their Sanskrit/Hindi hell, while
they send their kids to posh English medium schools.

Rathee saheb, when did Hindi and Sanskrit language become hell? If you don't know how to appreciate our root languages you should atleast avoid making anglicized thoughts public.. I am not saying that childern should be tought these language at the cost of English.. English is very important language but blindly praising English and looking down at our own languages shows one's lack of pride in their own culture and thus breeds generation of Anglophiles...
I think childern should be tought both Hindi/Sanskrit(and local language e.g. for South India) and English....

Vinod

 

[raj_rathee]

Rathee saheb, when did Hindi and Sanskrit language become hell?
Vinod

You caught me there Vinod !
I was vigorously emphasing the need to learn English and it came out
the wrong way. Didn't mean to put down Sanskirt or Hindi in any way.
That was not the intention. On the contrary I always advocate learning
as many languages as possible. So, sorry for that.

Ahem patham pathanti....

 

[vinodks]

You caught me there Vinod !
I was vigorously emphasing the need to learn English and it came out
the wrong way. Didn't mean to put down Sanskirt or Hindi in any way.
That was not the intention. On the contrary I always advocate learning
as many languages as possible. So, sorry for that.

Ahem patham pathanti....

Edited

Rathee Mahodaya, chinta ma kuru(don't worry), bhavaan atee samyak vadati(what you are saying is right) angrezi bhash api ati saravastu asti.(English also is important language)
kripyaa aksayamtam yadi mum samskrit bhasha apakara asti
(If my sentences are incorrect please excuse me

punarah drakshyamah,(See you again)
vinod)))))))))))))))

 

[raj_rathee]

Rathee Mahodaya, chinta ma kuru, bhavaan atee samyak vadati. angrezi bhash api ati saravastu asti.
aksayamtam yadi mum samskrit bhasha apakara asti

punarah drakshyamah,
vinod

Hey ! Now that's really unfair. I already exposed all the Sanskrit
I knew...so now you are taking me for a ride....

 

[gaganjat]

Haryanvi leads to 'heavy accent' in english, which most of the english speaking people find very impressive and very different from typical Indian accent.
Harvanvi speaking Jats are blessed with wonderful english accent.

 

[jitendershooda]

Another interesting section...

Writer must be some Punjabi...they hate Haryanvi speaking guys..the max!

Long live Harynavi and long live TAUs!!

Naveen ye Punjabi bade kasute hon hein ....HATE karen Haryanvi te er jib kite Punjabi balak south mein ya haryane te bahar padhan jaan te HARYANVI ka paryog aapne bachav tahi bhi kare hein ......

 

[jitendershooda]

manne isi-2 baatan pe ghana cho uthya kare....i just can't stand it....who the hell are they to say anything abt our language....college me kade koe jaatan ke baare me kuch ulta kah diya karta te main nahi chodya karti usne..i just love my language and i'm proud of it.....

Good Strong words from a Jatni...

Why Haryanvi is recognised so much is because of mixture of
SOUND + ACTION ....

Samne aale ne bera hai ek ib te BOL e SOLID tha er jae kime galti kar di aage te ACTION ( DHAMA DHAM ) bhi ho jyagi tagaje te ....

Dev Dahiya ji ka Signature bhi se na ......Justice Action Truth ...... its true ....

Haryanvi ka jahan tak sawal hai its not rude but its strong and Rattan what you told is the wrong use of Haryanvi .... that is a different thing ...

We can use haryanvi in a good manner also without abusing others ...and once in one thread Jagmohan malik ji has written na ki is jisa swad konya ....

ek cheej ke itne pryayvachi kite nahi milenge ..... jooti ...litar ....khosda ...patyan ... chapli ....

baat se paryog mein lyan ki ....

Rattan you are right in your saying that now a days the jaat youth is moving towards gangs and crime ...that is because of unemployment and our attitude not to go for small businesses like that of other castes ... but dheere dheere ye bhi badal rahi hai ..... and jats are coming with time ...

Mene hade south mein dekhya ek these people are very much preserving their culture .. language and donot feel bad about their language too and wearings .... aapni haryanvi ke inki kich kich ( Bera na bhai ke SANI SI KAT DEN HEIN .... Tygar(the mixture prepared of sand and water to be used as building material instead of cement) bana den hein mere bate ) te bhi bhundi se ke .... na bhai but the only problem with us is that some of us feels shame in speaking haryanvi ....

Just like Dhruv here in this site even from bombay is using such a good haryanvi and english and i donot think that he will be facing any problem of it ....

It is good to go for english but leaving haryanvi is not at all good ...

I worked in chandigarh the sardars always use punjabi while talking to their collegues in office and the same with these south indians ..... then why we are having mind in a fix about using it while conversation with our haryanvis may be in office or at other places publically ....

Kime kaho bhai kae din jib hojya na aangreji mein muh chikdate ...haryanvi bolan aale dhoondya karun mein te ... er jee saaa aajya hai ...

Bharat have you heard haryanvi ragni of Mehar singh and can you find any other alternate in laguages to be more expressive than our's to motivate a person for patriotism ....

Er ek wo chulkala se ne ek pakistani jib ladai pache mile flag meeting pe te boojan lage aapne jaat regiment aalyan te ek aur te sab theek hai yo thare dhore ..... LEEE lyoOOOO aala hathiyar aandy hai, se ke yo ... Thare sainik yo kahe ke ise toote hein ek bera e na pat ta .......

Come on jats come out of this fix of using haryanvi or not ... use any other laguage but for personal talks always use HARYANVI ... here is where we get ApnaPAn, its not better to go away from our roots..