History of origins - Myth?

[arvindjangu]

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i believe rajputs cooked up fancy stories about their origins.
They are supposed to be descended from the hun(hunnas) invaders of india in reality. Some say they are related to persians too. I have seen lots of black skin rajputs. Obviously they have a lot of dravidian in them too.

भाई अमन इतिहास होवे ऐ मिथ बर्गा स क्योंकि इतिहास लगभग जनश्रुतियों पर आधारित होवे स | रही बात जाट या राजपूत इतिहास की तो भाई जिस कौम के लोग इतने बुलंद होवे स तो उनके इतिहास में भी किम्मे दम होगा

 

[amans]

Listen guys, this is not ego/pride thing. We are only talking about racial make-up of jats. It is clear that jats are mixture of different races(caucasian, Dravidian(African), and AustroAsiatic) just like all other people of India.

Take other people of North India - you can see plenty of black skin North Indians. There are plenty of North Indian Brahmins who have black skin too!(Brahmins who claim they are direct descendants of aryan invaders of India).
Obviously Dravidians(Africans) have left genetic footprints all over Northern, Central, and Western India. Everyone is mixed - some more and some less.

 

[singhran]

Listen guys, this is not ego/pride thing. We are only talking about racial make-up of jats. It is clear that jats are mixture of different races(caucasian, Dravidian(African), and AustroAsiatic) just like all other people of India.

Take other people of North India - you can see plenty of black skin North Indians. There are plenty of North Indian Brahmins who have black skin too!(Brahmins who claim they are direct descendants of aryan invaders of India).
Obviously Dravidians(Africans) have left genetic footprints all over Northern, Central, and Western India. Everyone is mixed - some more and some less.

bhai aman tu samajhdar lage hai pher bhi nahi samajhta
is jatland par 99% history ke vidwan hai
inse panga na le
sari dunia ke historian yahan aa kar fail ho jayenge
tune jat jaisi 24 carat kaum ko mix bata dia ,ab dekh tamasha
tujhko badhia khitab milne wala hai, bhed ke bhes me bhedia ka de chuke hai
yahan ab tu safe nahi hai.

 

[amans]

Narendra Kharb saab too has acknowledged that jats are coming from union of scythians and native Indian women(dravidian, austro-asiatic). That would be a mixed race. I also added my bit. Others cussing -calling names don't have anything to contribute to back up their assertions so they have come down to school level gaali-galooch. I guess that only exposes their ignorance and lack of culture.

 

[narenderkharb]

Narendra Kharb saab too has acknowledged that jats are coming from union of scythians and native Indian women(dravidian, austro-asiatic). That would be a mixed race. I also added my bit. Others cussing -calling names don't have anything to contribute to back up their assertions so they have come down to school level gaali-galooch. I guess that only exposes their ignorance and lack of culture.

Aman

No body is cursing you .In fact it is really heartening that we can discuss all aspects of our history with an open mind with out any pride or prejudice . If Iam not wrong you started discussion on Bhatti Jat /Rajput identity on Yahoo Jat History Group but left abruptly.We can start that again on that group.

Now Jats didn't came out of union of Scythians with Native women but just allowed native women in their society and Caucasian race itself might have regional variation in haplogroups in ancient times .However if we talk in Racial term there is no one like Jats in India if we go for scythian groups as their name itself represent their racial identity where other groups owe their identity to either profession(different groups engaged in one profession ) or a native place(different groups ) from where they moved in earlier times.

 

[amans]

Aman

No body is cursing you .In fact it is really heartening that we can discuss all aspects of our history with an open mind with out any pride or prejudice . If Iam not wrong you started discussion on Bhatti Jat /Rajput identity on Yahoo Jat History Group but left abruptly.We can start that again on that group.

Now Jats didn't came out of union of Scythians with Native women but just allowed native women in their society and Caucasian race itself might have regional variation in haplogroups in ancient times .However if we talk in Racial term there is no one like Jats in India if we go for scythian groups as their name itself represent their racial identity where other groups owe their identity to either profession(different groups engaged in one profession ) or a native place(different groups ) from where they moved in earlier times.

Jats just allowed native women in their society?!!!!
Can you be clear what do you mean by that?

Open your eyes buddy. Look around you. How do you explain the variety we have in jats - black skin, very dark brown skin, dark brown, wheatish, light brown skin?
That comes from mixing of different races.
How do you explain this - 2 light brown skin jat husband and wife and their offsprings say 3 - 1 black skin, other light brown skin and say another child of wheatish skin(whatever that means)?
Obviously the darker skin colour is coming from the Dravidian people(Africans).
It is not only the jats but all people in India that are mixed. Some more and some less. It is another thing who is mixed less and who is mixed more. Khatris, jats seem to be less mixed then baniyas, up wallahs etc.
As we go from North to South of India - people become darker.
Same thing going from North to East of India and from West to South and from West to East. But within set geographic boundaries there are plenty of variations. Plenty of North Indians look just like dravidians. And plenty of people from Western India look just like dravidians too.
And I have seen tamils(dravidians) that can pass for jats.

 

[ravichaudhary]

The term Dravidian is not appropriate.

It is a term , coined by one Bishop Caldwell, a Christian Missionary, to create an Aryan/Dravidian divide, to prove the Aryan Invasion theory in the 18th century.

The term Dravidian is from Dravid, which means South- not dark coloured aboriginal people, compared to fair skinned Nordic types. Linguistically too there is much in common, and efforts to distinguish a separate Dravidian language have been less than successful.

Yes there are still some die hards still hanging on the 18th century colonial theories.

Undoubtedly over the many thousands of years people have evolved differently, both in looks and in thinking. There has been migration both in and out of the Indian subcontinent, both from the Eastern side and the Western side, and there is mixture of all genetical types.

Overriding this is the cultural blanket, that we find pretty much in common and spread throughout the Indian subcontinent, represented by the dhramic philosophies of the Vedic, and later Budhist, Jain, and Sanathan Dhram. Though there has been Islamic influence and more recently Christianity, there is still an underlying Indianness, which runs through the fabric, shows through it, and holds it fast.

When looking at the Jat picture, one cannot simply look at it from a Racial, genetic picture, but we have to take into account the cultural picture, without which we will be unable to understand the origin, and culture of the Jats as it evolved.

 

[amans]

The term Dravidian is not appropriate.

It is a term , coined by one Bishop Caldwell, a Christian Missionary, to create an Aryan/Dravidian divide, to prove the Aryan Invasion theory in the 18th century.

The term Dravidian is from Dravid, which means South- not dark coloured aboriginal people, compared to fair skinned Nordic types. Linguistically too there is much in common, and efforts to distinguish a separate Dravidian language have been less than successful.

Yes there are still some die hards still hanging on the 18th century colonial theories.

Undoubtedly over the many thousands of years people have evolved differently, both in looks and in thinking. There has been migration both in and out of the Indian subcontinent, both from the Eastern side and the Western side, and there is mixture of all genetical types.

Overriding this is the cultural blanket, that we find pretty much in common and spread throughout the Indian subcontinent, represented by the dhramic philosophies of the Vedic, and later Budhist, Jain, and Sanathan Dhram. Though there has been Islamic influence and more recently Christianity, there is still an underlying Indianness, which runs through the fabric, shows through it, and holds it fast.

When looking at the Jat picture, one cannot simply look at it from a Racial, genetic picture, but we have to take into account the cultural picture, without which we will be unable to understand the origin, and culture of the Jats as it evolved.

You said - "there is mixture of all genetical types."
So Jats are a mixed people. You agree then.

IF we speak in terms like this then aryan is also not a race but a people speaking a common language. Can we call dravidians with the term employed by the Aryan invaders of india - Dasyus? Don't know the exact term.

Dravidian languages are different from Indo-Aryan languages. The common words can be ascribed to contacts between the speakers of these 2 different language families.

Where is buddhism in India? How many buddhists are there in India? Islamic influence(invasions) led to the demise of the buddhist religion in India. Didn't invading Muslim armies plundering India killed off all those buddhist monks and burned their viharas and their texts? Now this religion seems to have disappeared from the land of its birth. Thanks to the muslim invaders advancing their loot and plunder agenda by hiding behind their medieval dark religion.

 

[annch]

Aman,
Basically you know all the answers
So, now your plan is to send us all in search of those budhist monks who might have survived the invader attacks?
Regards

You said - "there is mixture of all genetical types."
So Jats are a mixed people. You agree then.

Where is buddhism in India? How many buddhists are there in India? Islamic influence(invasions) led to the demise of the buddhist religion in India. Didn't invading Muslim armies plundering India killed off all those buddhist monks and burned their viharas and their texts? Now this religion seems to have disappeared from the land of its birth. Thanks to the muslim invaders advancing their loot and plunder agenda by hiding behind their medieval dark religion.

 

[deepika]

भाई अमन किम्मे गनी दुंगे की सोचन लाग्या , गन्नी गहराई म न चला जाइये ना तो फांसी खाए पंडा छूटेगा | बाकी इतना सोचे पाछे बी तू जी व स या बी एक कमाल की बात स , म तो इतनी गहराई में जाये पाछे फांसी खा जाऊ |
राजपूत के बारे में न्यू बतावे स अक वे असली क्षत्री स और वे एक यघ में पैदा हुवे चार आदमी सोलंकी परमार पर्तिहार और चौहान की औलाद स | म न्यू कहू सु अक भाई तू यघ म आदमी तो छोड़ एक भुंड ऐ पैदा करके दिखा दे , या बात तने मिथ कोणी लागी |

I dont know about Rajputs but i am sure you must have heared and noticed that if we go through Ramayan and Maharbharat we will notice end number of such miraculous acts.We being Hindu believe in it.Don't you?If not then may be you don't believe in even God whose existence is mentioned in mythologies.Mythologies ke characters toh bahut purrane hai.Aapne yeh toh suna hi hoga ki apne dada aur pardada(Ancestors)ghee ke lotte kai muh laakai kilo kilo ghee ek time pai pi jaya karte.Aap nyu karo aadhi kilo e pi kai dikha dyo(i am sure ya ghee aali baat toh aapnai bhi myth koni laagai).Issliye purne time ki baat sach hai ya nahi yeh isspe behas karna koi budhimatta ki baat nahi hai kyunki jo aakhon se nahi dekhya usska ke sach arr ke jhooth.Jiska dil kare woh maan lo nahi karta toh koi zabardasti nahi.

 

[ravichaudhary]

You said - "there is mixture of all genetical types."
So Jats are a mixed people. You agree then.

IF we speak in terms like this then aryan is also not a race but a people speaking a common language. Can we call dravidians with the term employed by the Aryan invaders of india - Dasyus? Don't know the exact term.

Dravidian languages are different from Indo-Aryan languages. The common words can be ascribed to contacts between the speakers of these 2 different language families.

.

What you are raising is important issues in the context of historical inquiry.

However like most of us, there is some ramping up to be done, before it is possible to have a substantive. informative discussion.


First : there is undoubtedly a mixture of genetical types in all people, some more and some less.

Then the question is what is the ethnic ( group) identity.It cannot be simply based on a physical type, though a physical type may be dominant. What are boundaries of the group? What are the cultural limiters?. When does a Jat stop being one?.


Second.

Aryan is definitely not a race, not as per my understanding. I will be happy to be educated as to why it should be thought of as a race. Language is no indicator of race, people of different races , groups, can speak the same language e.g English

Third:

What evidence is there for an Aryan Invasion? or that Aryans existed as a distinct racial group?

How do you or anyone else, draw a conclusion that the term "Das (Dasyu)" refers to them being of another racial stock, in this case Dravidian.

Das is a common Hindu name, the learned poet Tulsi Das for example.

Was Tulsidas a Dravidian?

Das simply means disciple. It can also mean slave or servant.

Dravidian language:

Even here there is plenty of doubt about the accepted two language theories.

The simplistic theory is Dravidian- South Indian, Aryan -North India. This does not work.

This Aryan - Dravidian construct, was a political Construct, by the British Colonialists, and developed to suit their purposes. Unfortunately this has become enshrined in our Indian Academia, and this is what is taught to us in school and college.

It is a fascinating subject, and if you wish to explore it, I can give some directions to explore.

This is not intended to be lecture, but rather to point out that we cannot accept simplistic explanations, and that we should go out and research the material, and follow the evidence wherever that evidence leads.

Best Wishes



Ravi Chaudhary

 

[amans]

What you are raising is important issues in the context of historical inquiry.

However like most of us, there is some ramping up to be done, before it is possible to have a substantive. informative discussion.


First : there is undoubtedly a mixture of genetical types in all people, some more and some less.

Then the question is what is the ethnic ( group) identity.It cannot be simply based on a physical type, though a physical type may be dominant. What are boundaries of the group? What are the cultural limiters?. When does a Jat stop being one?.


Second.

Aryan is definitely not a race, not as per my understanding. I will be happy to be educated as to why it should be thought of as a race. Language is no indicator of race, people of different races , groups, can speak the same language e.g English

Third:

What evidence is there for an Aryan Invasion? or that Aryans existed as a distinct racial group?

How do you or anyone else, draw a conclusion that the term "Das (Dasyu)" refers to them being of another racial stock, in this case Dravidian.

Das is a common Hindu name, the learned poet Tulsi Das for example.

Was Tulsidas a Dravidian?

Das simply means disciple. It can also mean slave or servant.

Dravidian language:

Even here there is plenty of doubt about the accepted two language theories.

The simplistic theory is Dravidian- South Indian, Aryan -North India. This does not work.

This Aryan - Dravidian construct, was a political Construct, by the British Colonialists, and developed to suit their purposes. Unfortunately this has become enshrined in our Indian Academia, and this is what is taught to us in school and college.

It is a fascinating subject, and if you wish to explore it, I can give some directions to explore.

This is not intended to be lecture, but rather to point out that we cannot accept simplistic explanations, and that we should go out and research the material, and follow the evidence wherever that evidence leads.

Best Wishes



Ravi Chaudhary

Exactly, jats are a people of mixed races. Although some people here are in denial and cursing me. But I think they know this is true but have some kind of complexes and so the denials and the curses.
The one thing that can help is deciphering the harappan language. Also there is 1 language belonging to the dravidian branch that is spoken in Western Pakistan/Afghanistan. How do you explain that? Another thing is this word dasyus has been used in Rig veda. Rig veda was composed between 1000 BC - 800 BC. Considering all the make believe ancient Indian history this date is a guess most likely. Tulsi das lived in middle ages. A lot of things changed between. So you cannot say that invading aryans did not use this term for Dravidian people.
But again how do you explain jats of different skin colors? Both parents of light brown skin with black colored children? Black color of the dravidian people? It is clear that jats have dravidian in them just like other people of India.

 

[narenderkharb]

Exactly, jats are a people of mixed races.

Can you explain what you mean by that ?

If you mean that different people Dravidian and Aryan mixed with each other to form Jat identity than you are completely wrong.

The variation is color is due to native mt-DNA haplogroups finding entrance in Jat gene pool when this Scythian warrior race descended on northern planes.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Dear Aman

Please take some time to reflect before posting.

We should try and look beyond the Aryan- Dravidian concept.

Do please read what I have written.


Ravi Chaudhary

 

[vdhillon]

An old ... albeit an interesting thread, valid and probing questions raised by Aman and some good explanation by Ravi ji and Narender Kharb is specially enlightening.

Too bad the thread died an early death. As usual, closed-minded Talibani feudal Jats too are present on the thread who were needlessly trolling Aman. Hope to see more in-depth and high quality discussion, sans junk-trolls.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

An old ... albeit an interesting thread, valid and probing questions raised by Aman and some good explanation by Ravi ji and Narender Kharb is specially enlightening.

Too bad the thread died an early death. As usual, closed-minded Talibani feudal Jats too are present on the thread who were needlessly trolling Aman. Hope to see more in-depth and high quality discussion, sans junk-trolls.

Good idea, Friend.

It would be better if we start the discussion with first input on the issue from a post free of prejudice.

Thanks and regards