Idealistic v/s pragmatic approach

[mukeshkumar007]

Well, let me ask a straight question

a) Do the words like principles, ethics, and moral values really hold any value in today’s scenario?

b) Can a person survive in the world while following an idealistic approach which is purely based on principle and ethics

Kindly let me know your opinion on this.. if your answer is yes then prove it or if no then why the hell these words still exist?

Some people argued that instead of idealistic approach it should be pragmatic approach..though they could never define what these idealistic and pragmatic approaches are.

 

[mishti]

Don't know much about ideal life or pragmatic life etc etc
but words like principles, ethics, morals etc will never loose their value.
As long as the world exists, these words exist (or is it the other way round ??)
Of course a person can survive in the world while following an idealistic approach and never compromising on their morals, my Dadaji always did that.
I have just been taught this one simple thing- if you can’t decide what you are doing is wrong or right-just imagine that your parents or your kids are watching you- you can never go wrong then.
In the end, a person who is content and can look back to his life with head held high- who can recognize and converse with his own image in mirror with the innocence of a kid- has lead an idealistic life.
That's the mantra of my life-taught by my parents.
I guess most of us are like that only.

 

[reenaa]

yes,,they do hold value in ones life.As it makes life worth living.Though for some ,,they are just few statements dats says dos or donts ..A person can definately survive while living a life based on principles..though it is bit hard..as good things in life dont come easy..moreover at the end of the day we are resposible for the deeds we do..It takes grt amt of courage to stand by values, n morals n not many people hav that in todays time.

One should not COMPROMISE with ones values and morals.

 

[vijay]

Principles, ethics, morality are not just few words but these are symbols of some characterisics possessed by human beings. People may have different definitions of these ideologies but bottom line remains the same. The implementation of these ideologies depends on the fact that how intense and serious people are about the principles they have choosen to follow. Few people set a normal set of principles with some opportunistic flexibilities while some other set high standard of principles. That makes all the difference in the character of a person.

There is no way that a person can not survive while following an idealistic approach. People still follow the idealistic approach and surviving, infact doing good. But it takes a lot of courage and hardships in life to stick to the priciples. Most of the people breaks down due to the hardships of life and become opportunistic by making excuse of being practical or pragmatic.

Most of the people try to justify their action to the world as being obvious, practical, pragmatic and so on. But end of the day, what matters is that how they can justify their action to themselves. A person is the best judge of himself/herself. When a person goes to bed to sleep and recalls the deeds done by him during the day. He tries to evaluate those deeds on the merits of his principles, ethics and morality he can analyze himself. All depends on how honestly a person evluates himself.

People who are honest to themselves can survive with idealistic approach while others can mould their priciples in the name of being practical. After all, its very hard to become idealistic and very easy to become opportunistic. Being practical implies to both the school of thoughts but all depends on the basic approach towards life and humanism.

 

[upendersingh]

All 3 replies are excellent so far. I second all these 3.

 

[mukeshkumar007]

first, thank you all for your replies..

@ Vijay: ....What I know out of my little knowledge, that there can’t be any degree of variance when it comes to principle... I don’t understand how we can classify principles with set of degrees... Either a thing is wrong or right...How it can have middle path...or even if a middle state exist in any of the situation/case then it is simply a neutral one and being neutral is again a state of compromise that divert one from the path of principles/ethics. Hence I’m not convinced with the idea that it can be possible to set some set of principles with a level of flexibility…. It is certainly beyond my imagination... I think you must have got some reasoning behind this argument so kindly clarify it further for me...

@ all..... I knew there have been people who lived upto principles throughout their life defying all odds. Our ancestors had kept the principles and ethics at the top in their priorities and they succeed in doing so as the circumstances in societies were favorable... but I’m talking in today’s perspective...The argument produced here are the ones which people often render whenever the importance of principles is discussed…You all say one can definitely live/survive even today while being idealistic in approach though it is hard..So your agreement with the above statement made me convinced that you all have been successful in living your life upto the ethics and principles till the date.. Hence I believe you all can definitely guide me here to make things works...

Let me bring some practical issues (the ones which I have experienced/observed) one has to encounter in the path of ethics/principles...

Your ethics argue you to follow a right path, take right action with right approach and expect you not to be biased in any of the situation but... situation 1: Suppose your friends indulge in something wrong (intentionally) and you registered your strong protest…this doesn’t matches with the ideology of your friends and they dumped you... u r in isolation now and being accused of being rude, unfriendly, and big headed….. Situation 2: you are at a influencing position...Someone close to you seek some favor from you to make things in his/her favor… u denied as u found it unethical..in result you again invited social loss for yourself... situation 3: you are in a corporate sector, found yourself in a situation where taking decision based on ethics made you jobless…now you have to face the irk of your family members too.. U are termed fool, impractical and so on... situation 4: you being an officer decided to work according to your responsibilities challenging any kind of top/political pressure...in result very soon you are put out of the system…you found none in your support..infact the people for whom you were fighting are nowhere in the scene.. These are just few practical examples... Society is full of such examples... I’m really very immature to imagine how one can cope up with such situations...I hope you all must got an answer for me here..

I don’t know what kind of society is this… people expect you to be a man of principles but at the same time these same people put hurdles in your way. I’m really clueless...either I don’t have the courage to follow the teaching given by my grandfather or these teaching are simply the stories of utopia.

 

[vijay]

@ Vijay: ....What I know out of my little knowledge, that there can’t be any degree of variance when it comes to principle... I don’t understand how we can classify principles with set of degrees... Either a thing is wrong or right...How it can have middle path...or even if a middle state exist in any of the situation/case then it is simply a neutral one and being neutral is again a state of compromise that divert one from the path of principles/ethics. Hence I’m not convinced with the idea that it can be possible to set some set of principles with a level of flexibility…. It is certainly beyond my imagination... I think you must have got some reasoning behind this argument so kindly clarify it further for me...

Mukesh .... the degree of variance is always there in each and everything as life is not absolutely Black and White but most part of it is grey where good or bad, moral or immoral are totally relative instead of being absolute.

For example .... one person consider some act as unethical and against his principles. Now, here are the drgrees of variances :

1. That person oppsoses everyone who involves in doing that act.
2. That person only opposes his frinds doing that act.
3. That person himself don't do that act but don't give a damn if others are doing it.
4. That person breaks realtionships with the people who are doing that act.
5. That person dislikes the poeple who involved in that act but don't break relationships with them.
6. That person may have some soft corner for a person involed in the act and adopts a moderate approach.
7. That person may accept that in some specific circumstances that act is not that unethical.
8. That person is always against that act in any situations and circumstances.

and so on ......

There are unlimited number of flexibilites but principle is STILL the same i.e. The person don't like some ACT.

 

[vijay]

situation 1: Suppose your friends indulge in something wrong (intentionally) and you registered your strong protest…this doesn’t matches with the ideology of your friends and they dumped you... u r in isolation now and being accused of being rude, unfriendly, and big headed…..

Situation 2: you are at a influencing position...Someone close to you seek some favor from you to make things in his/her favor… u denied as u found it unethical..in result you again invited social loss for yourself...

The above said flexibilities implies here also but yes opportunists dumps the idealistic person like odd man out from their company and that's why most of the idealistic people have lesser and lesser friends.

Check my signature to confirm the idealism.

situation 3: you are in a corporate sector, found yourself in a situation where taking decision based on ethics made you jobless…now you have to face the irk of your family members too.. U are termed fool, impractical and so on... situation 4: you being an officer decided to work according to your responsibilities challenging any kind of top/political pressure...in result very soon you are put out of the system…you found none in your support..infact the people for whom you were fighting are nowhere in the scene..

The honest and ideal person is always unpopular among his employees and collegues. Even some family members and friends also criticize him for being hollier than though person. These are the hardships where most of the people give up and switch to easiest alternate path or induce so many flexibilities in their set of ethics and principles.

I don’t know what kind of society is this… people expect you to be a man of principles but at the same time these same people put hurdles in your way. I’m really clueless...either I don’t have the courage to follow the teaching given by my grandfather or these teaching are simply the stories of utopia.

Most people gets confused in these situation and circumstances. The people with greater will power would like to continue their choosen path while weaker people brings flexibilities as per their mental strength level to cope with such situations.

Everybody claims that he have some ethics and principles but standard of those ethics and principles vary from person to person. This is the flexibility.

 

[mishti]

[QUOTE situation 1: Suppose your friends indulge in something wrong (intentionally) and you registered your strong protest…this doesn’t matches with the ideology of your friends and they dumped you... u r in isolation now and being accused of being rude, unfriendly, and big headed….. .[/QUOTE]

Facing this right now from friends here at my student house, I've been termed arrogant and everything u said !!

Talking about other situations that you described, I'll try my best to stick to my principles. I am too young and protected to face the hardships of life but still I want to cite an axample from my life:
I started my PhD here in Jan, my papa wasn't willing to send the only pampered and naive daughter so far from family,
he was insisting upon finding a job for me in R&D or teaching whatever I want since last August when I finished my degree. But I was adamant I'll make my own path and never climb the ladder with his help. He tried to convince me giving various excuses like if I'm not taking the jobs he found for me so that a more worthy and deserving person gets it then I'm wrong, I'm leaving it for other person who has a bit "kam sifarish" etc etc.
But I never bowed down and now here I'm as a reward, doing my PhD in the lab I wanted. (if it's reward from God or I'm plain lucky I dunno, I consider it as His Blessing)
All this explaination is not presented here to glorify my deeds, but just to show that God IS there to reward you for your deeds if you stick to your ethics.
You just have to believe in yourself and the principles that you've set for yourself and Trust in the Almighty.

 

[deependra]

Some good discussion is going on. I fully agree with Vijay and Mishti.
Its really true that if the person is following the principles ideally, he is going to be benifitted at the end of the day. In some cases it might seem to others that he is a fool, rigid or hard minded person. Like if some one does not accept the bribe his colleague might be having the impresson that this person is not practical or fool or whatever. But even those friends also have a deep respect for that fellow. Same the case with the people blessed with other virtues like honesty, trueliness, altruistic attitude, etc. The more the person follow the principles the more inner satisfaction, peace of mind comes to his life. Some situation it might seem that he was hitted high for following the principles but if the person is holding them tightly he can prove that he was right at those moments also.

 

[cooljat]

Mukki Bhai,

I value your sentiments and understand your day to day conflicts with world due to principles n' ethics you possess.

It's a wild wild world and everybody is running blindly after name, fame & success even keeping the basic ethics on stake, for them success is more important by hooks n' crooks, any whichever way. But I fail to understand what is the definition of Success in their opinion .. I feel milking money and flourishing career is what they mean.

On the other hand there's a rare species for them Principles n' Ethics are above all else. They just don't compromise with their principles no matter what adverse result may come; due to this they have to face severe consequences, defeats, hardships and a lot of opposition but still they stick to it. Why? What benefits they get at the end of the day?

Well, there's famous saying - 'your primary responsibility should always be to remain honest with your inner-conscience' .. That's more important than any kinda materialistic success, end of the day if you're able to face your own, you're the successful in real sense. Peace of mind and soul satisfaction is the real thing and you can't get it from so called pragmatic, compromising approach.

Being idealistic is little different, Its good to be idealistic but one should be flexible in thinking, one should got to be open to new ideas thou before adoption it should be reasoned well.

Certainly the path of ethics n' principles is always full of hardships, hurdles and sheer adversity and the one who follows it, gonna have to suffer a lot .. there will be lot of conflicts between your soul n' mind, your friends, colleagues, your well wishers and almost all and at times you it would be really hard for you to tolerate but still if you believe in yourself and refuse to shed the principles, you'll be the ultimate winner n' that counts more than any success !!

I suggest all of you to watch a epic Bollywood flick 'Ardhsatya' .. it's my all time fav n' arguably the finest movie which depicts the same topic very well. Agonist in the movie is a honest inspector and it's shown in the movie how severe kinda conflicts he has to bear and what effects it put on his personal front n' professional front too and how he tackles with it, indeed a must watch !

Read this goosebumps review: http://passionforcinema.com/ardha-satya-silver-jubilee-remembrance/

' Because inspite of increasing corruption all over in all the areas, still there have been few honest souls living in all these past years who have tried to bring good changes in the areas wherever they have worked. Inspite of all the bad things happening in the world, few good people, though in absolute minority, are living here and there and who may want to pursue their honest crusade against the evil and such films are to honour those honest people. And such films are there to analyze the situations prevailing in the society and they should be remembered again and again. '

Cheers
Jit

 

[virj]

Some people argued that instead of idealistic approach it should be pragmatic approach..though they could never define what these idealistic and pragmatic approaches are.

Pragmatic and idealistic arent opposite of each other. Pragmatic say an ideology (or any idea) is true if its proved and that one should discard the unpractical ideas. A pragmatic approach can be the only ideal approach in many cases. Did you mean ethical vs non-ethical?



However Lets analyse the given situations as ethical or moral vs unethical or immoral scenerio:

Your ethics argue you to follow a right path, take right action with right approach and expect you not to be biased in any of the situation but...

Situation 1: Suppose your friends indulge in something wrong (intentionally) and you registered your strong protest…this doesn’t matches with the ideology of your friends and they dumped you... u r in isolation now and being accused of being rude, unfriendly, and big headed…..

Oh Well, If they are your true friend the ideological difference wont matter. I have a few friends who differ on many issue but that hardly affect our friendship. Things are different if they are your 'time pass' friend than they wont enjoy ur company if u oppose every single thing they say. Also you wont enjoy their company for long if they say south and u say north each time. Another thing there is a difference between being 'ideological different' and doing something wrong ( I assume morally/ethically). If someone is engaged in an unethical act and u support it, u are equally wrong(legally as well). Some unethical acts are punishable by law . So u have to draw a line .

Situation 2: you are at a influencing position...Someone close to you seek some favor from you to make things in his/her favor… u denied as u found it unethical..in result you again invited social loss for yourself...

If you do this you would feel very proud of urself and in long run, I am sure, would, earn more friends. Don’t worry about the one which u lost as he wasn’t true friend anyway. However, would you do the same if instead of someone close its ur son. If yes than great otherwise think again

Situation 3: you are in a corporate sector, found yourself in a situation where taking decision based on ethics made you jobless…now you have to face the irk of your family members too.. U are termed fool, impractical and so on...

Again as I said unethical acts are punishable by law as well. Not sure what sort of acts u are refering. You have to elaborate. Better be jobless than behind the bars. But if u are just refering to the general politics than things are different. You have to be very careful. You can still play politics without indulging in cheap acts. Is this unethical?? Depends.

Situation 4: you being an officer decided to work according to your responsibilities challenging any kind of top/political pressure...in result very soon you are put out of the system…you found none in your support..infact the people for whom you were fighting are nowhere in the scene.. These are just few practical examples... Society is full of such examples... I’m really very immature to imagine how one can cope up with such situations...I hope you all must got an answer for me here..

Again not sure about the situation as you havent explained it properly. What sort of fight is it? Are they asking you to do something unethical?? Or are they asking you to hide some facts from the public(like in a public listed company).Mind you if u hide things intentionally you are again punishable by law as high ranked officers has a duty toward the stakeholders. Or if you are talking about an IAS officer who is facing pressure from a corrupt system?


As you can see the ethical approach is also the pragmatic approach in most cases.

 

[virj]

Also my friend, In most of the given situation you have only two options. Be ethical or unethical, moral or immoral. There is no such middle path.

Now dont ask me which path I follow. I am human

 

[annch]

Yes, words like principles, ethics etc still hold value in today's scenario, and so does being pragmatic.

Being an idealist or practical or both- this is a personal choice. The issues occur when we expect the rest of the world to be like us, when we don't respect these differences and try to prove/ be recognised that our way of living is better. Being an idealist is not hard, trying to convert others to be idealists is hard.

There is no exhaustive list of ideals, neither is there a definite practical approach. Neither are the two- being ideal and practical, mutually exclusive. Bhagwad Geeta is the best example of how the two approaches blend for the greater good. Let's take the simplest of all ideals- honesty. We all believe in it and follow it, yet we are also practical enough to know when/ where to keep our mouth shut.

 

[samarkadian]

पुराने समय की बात है . एक महात्मा इस बात के लिए विख्यात थे की वे हमेशा सत्य बोलते थे. वे वन में बैठे ध्यान्मगन थे की एक व्यक्ति लहू लुहान अवस्था में उनके सामने से गुजरा और पास वाली गुफा में जा कर छिप गया . कुछ समय बाद कुछ लोग और आये . उन्होंने महात्मा से पूछा की तुमने किसी आदमी को देखा है . स्वाभाव वश महात्मा ने उतर दिया की हाँ देखा है. उन्होंने पूछा की कहाँ है वो. महात्मा ने सत्य बोलते हुए कहा की वो सामने वाली गुफा में है.

अब वो लोग उस गुफा में गए , उस व्यक्ति को निकाल कर लाये , उसका वध कर दिया और उसके पास से जितना भी धन मिला वो लूट लिया. जो व्यक्ति मारा गया वो एक व्यापारी था जो की उस वन से गुजर रहा था और जो लोग उसके पीछे पीछे आये थे वो लुटेरे थे. महत्मा का सत्य पर अडीग रहने के सिद्धांत ने एक निहथे एवं मासूम व्यक्ति की जान ले ली.

क्या ये सत्य का सिद्धांत आपको व्यवहारिक परतीत हुआ ? क्या आप इस महात्मा का सम्मान करेंगे?

नहीं, संभवत: नहीं !

अब आप अपने आप को उस महात्मा के स्थान पर रखिये और विचारिये की आप उस स्थिती में क्या करेंगे ?

काफी आसान है , आप उस व्यक्ति के बारे में नहीं बताएँगे और अगर बताएँगे भी एक दम सही नहीं.

सत्य बोलना चाहिए किन्तु ऐसा सुखा सच भी भी किस काम का जो किसी की जान ले ले.

सिद्धांत एवं व्व्यहार , आचार एक दुसरे के पूरक हैं न की अलग अलग .

आदर्श व्यकतिगत जीवन को उच्च स्तर पर ले जाने के लिए हैं किन्तु वो तभी स्थापित होते हैं जब व्यवहार में सदुपयोगी हो.

जीवन हमेशा से अनिश्चित एवं क्षन्भंगुर रहा है . नैतिक मुल्य , सिद्धांत , आदर्श जीवन को मनुष्यता की तरफ ले जाते हैं किन्तु अगर आप इन सिधान्तों को दुनियादारी की कसौटी पर नहीं कसते तो ये सिर्फ खोखले एंड हास्यजनक बन जाते हैं. पुन: कहना चाहूँगा की ये जीवन जीने के औजार हैं स्वयम जीवन नहीं. अतः: इनका उपयोग, सदुपयोग एवं द्रुप्योग पूरणत : आपके हाथ है. एक वास्तविक स्तर वाला सैधांतिक जीवन आपको हमेशा आनंद परदान करेगा .

 

[vijay]

सिद्धांत एवं व्व्यहार , आचार एक दुसरे के पूरक हैं न की अलग अलग .

All depends on :

How practical you are about your ideals.
How idealistic your are about your practical approach.

Both the approaches are ideal as well practical.

 

[mukeshkumar007]

It means one has to make his approach according to the world he/she lives in and induce the variance from the focal point as per the situation in which he/she is put in. Right? I must admit that I’m totally confused now. Maybe I’m too naive to understand it properly.

 

[virj]

Whats the confusion in the 4 scenerio u have given (post #12) ?

The confusion was in your original question actually

 

[sjakhars]

Moral of the story is:
There is nothing like idealistic approach and pragmatic/practical approach.
Approach is the only thing remaining.

I am happy see at least some conclusion here. Or am I confused in this??