IIT/ IIM quotas: what You say?

[gauravchaudhary]

Jats all over Delhi are in OBC category and not just from outer Delhi, being a Jat from Delhi I believe that it was nothing but a stupid political gimmick to bank votes. Thankfully, it didnt even work for that.

I dont know how this has affected Jats from other regions, but to Delhi Jats it didnt mean anything, most of them do not even know about it. Most of them simply do not need it and do not care about it.

As your location suggests that you are in Delhi School of Economics I would ask you two things. Does'nt reservation pose as hinderence to Pareto Optimality and doesnt it lead to good talent being driven away from the labour market. Think of the bad cars driving good cars theory (also known as bad lemons vs. good lemons theory).

Cheers,

Reply.
First, I beg sorry for being late in reply. I my giving a detalied reply to your questions and will explain points with the help of basic economics.

Reservations in no way pose hinderence to pareto optimality. Firstly, the initial situation is not necessarily a pareto optimal situation. But, to begin with let us assume that that initial labour market situation is in a pareto optimal state. which means the situation is such that no one can be made better off without making any one else worse off. also since we assume that we are initially at pareto optimal state, this implies that markets are competitive. Now your argument is: there r perfectly competitive markets and there is some initial distribution of income/skills/resources, now let the markets do their job of allocating resources because markets do resource allocation in most efficient way. You are right and your point well taken. But pareto optimality says nothing about distribution of income. Assume we have 101$ in resources/skill. If one individual is getting 100$ and another is getting 1$ even that may be a pareto optimal situation if at such a situation the indifference curves of two individuals are tangent to each other. But is such a situation acceptable, ie basic question is: IS SUCH A SITUATION "WELFARE MAXIMISING." No, its not. So something has to be done. Now through reservation we sort of change the initial distribution of resource/skill/income. With this changed initial allocation we again allow markets to function reach a new pareto optimal state where,say, distribution is 60$ and 41$. So we move from one pareto optimal state to another pareto-optimal state. Now look at social welfare. Social welfare is a question of value judgement. Generally it is acceptable that a move from extremely inequitable distribution of resources to comparatively equitable distribution is welfare enhancing because marginal utility/marginal welfare falls with increase in income. An extra $ for someone who earns 10000$ adds almost nothing to welfare but for someone who earns $10, it would substantiall increase welfare. Here we assumed that economy is not growing (101$ constant) which is not true. In reality, the question in india is one of giving benefits of growth to weaker sections. so in reality through reservation, weaker sections are also allowed to become able to garner skills which help them join modern work force. At the same time, impact of reservation on those who do not have is little.

cheers

 

[gauravchaudhary]

This idea of extension of the reservation quota upto 50% in IITs and IIMs will degrade the quality of these world fame Institutes.From the day of our independency the idea of reservation has not worked.it should be applied on the economical condition basis and not on the caste basis.the further reservation idea will only add the racial discrimination,frustration among the gerenral candidates,the unemployment and the most brain drain.On one side the government wishes to improve the condition of science and technolgy in India and on the other hand these low fundas are applied.How can u get good quality of scientists, technologists if such things are applied.there of galaxy of persons all over the world who wre so poor but they made history through their brain not from getting reservations.the goverment brings these ideas only to fulfill their cheap activities.God has gifted equal brain to everbody.therefore the backwards should be financially supported.So the idea of the reservation should be stopped

When IITs and IIMs were established, the situation in the country was very different from today. When these institutions were established, there was extreme shortage of skilled manpower. Even in the areas extremely important for India in terms of providing basic infrastructure like steel, construction etc, there was shortage. So these institutions were set up to provide basic backbone of skilled manpower to India. But now situation is different. It was expected from these institutions that over time they will grow in size and number and at some point of time, provide quality education to a large number of students. But, instead today in a country of one billion plus population we have just 6 IIMs. Why not we have 50 high quality MBA institutions like IIMs when there is such a heavy demand. Today these institutions have to complete their social obligation. They have grossly failed in recognising their obligations in terms of providing access to them to students from all sections. Over time these IIMs became a tool of domination by few people. Moreover, please single out who are the people who have benefitted from these institutions. Only those who had at some point of time, access to high quality english medium schooling. But are we giving high quality english medium schooling to all sections of society. NO. However intelligent one is, if he did not had studied from very high quality english medium school, the chances of getting into IIM are almost nil. Then what do u do. Provide very high quality english medium schooling to everybody? its just not possible in short span of time. So reservations are needed to provide INCENTIVE to students from backward calsses to look towards such institutions.
These IIMs and IITs should not be competing with top MBA schools in US.
It is not needed. What is needed is that they grow in size and provide education to a vast number of students and from all sections of society.

 

[gauravchaudhary]

My point is against reservation. Being from a prticular caste does not give us a right to score seat against a deserving candidate. One who competes for it and works hard for it should get it. Let merit be the only criteria for selection. I believe that even if all 100% of seats are taken by SC/ST on the basis of merit, then also it is justified. But if a general candidate can not get a seat despite of being more competent then it is injustice. Because he is the one who has worked harder and is more talented. Our government may provide extra coaching, guidance, free primary education to students who need it. they may also be given scholarship on the basis of their caste. But they should deserve it in the first place.
Do jats need quota to get into prime institutes. We are known for our laborious attitude and pride we hold. I still belive that Quota will not help our brothers in Rajhasthan, UP but a better primary education facility will. I am in a very urban village but people still dont know the meaning of IIT/IIM.

I have spent my summer vacations doing career couselling for upliftment of the children in my village. Telling them what engineering and medical means. They need good primary education for their upliftment and proper guidance. Why cant government take some pain and work towards free primary education for OBCs rather than devising new policies for their vote bank.
I am in NIFT and have seen that students who get into on the basis of quota neither are backward nor need any upliftment. they rather fail to keep up with talented students and do not understand the meaning of hard work and 'earning' their place in the institute.
Few things are earned by labour and talent which will build our self esteem and become our strength.
I would again like to add the point that I love my community and want upliftment of our jat bhais who need it. But I a mere 1500 seats in IIM is not the key to acieve but a better primary education to millions in the village is definitely the solution.

You are right in saying that merit should be the criterion and government should provide support at primary and secondary levels.
(Also, I m NOT supporting reservations because jats are getting it. I support reservation because of benefits which other really weaker sections get from them. issues of jats are very different.)
Now,what are the ingredients that go into creating a meritorius individual in terms of getting into an institution of higher learning. A basic pre-requsite is good quality english schooling. Plus coachings,private tutions,etc. Tell me one individual who enters IIT or any other institution without coachings,private tutions etc, and this is apart from expensive schooling. It is not possible for government to provide such a education to weaker sections even in medium term. Now look at the purpose of Reservations.
There is a clear caste divide even today not only in terms of resources but also in social acceptance.One of the basic purposes is to creat a class among so called lower castes which can rise in social strata and mingle with other sections. This helps in increasing social acceptance and creating a leadership among them which can work for upliftment of their communities.
I these terms sc/st reservations have had fair achievements.
Also democratic decision making is such that while it may not be possible to make changes or creat opinion in making substantial increases in education expenditure at the bottom,opinion can be created for reservations at the top. Why? there is a caste dimension to this. Every thing in here has a caste dimension and we need to recoginse it.

It clearly seems tha jats least need resetrvation because we are a powerfull
caste and infact most dominating in our places. If we have lacked somewhere, I think its only higher education and this probably has more to do with will to take higher education.

Anyways, your summer work really needs to be appretiated and your concern about our community well taken.

 

[sktomer777]

Not a right approach

Whatever argument we give to justify it, it is fact that no nation can progress based on such type of classification.
There are so many things that can be done for backward classes.I don't understand why govt goes by this quota system. Why don't govt take steps to unable them to compete with other classes?
It all seems to be revolving around vote bank and nobody seems to be thinking seriously about real welfare of backwards.
Those who are already in a good economic status only enjoys this type of benefit.those who really need these things are not even aware of it.The situation of SC/ST/OBC is still grim in villages. And those who have moved to cities and don;t need any sort of reservation actually use it.
I dont see a point in this type of reservation. When the best talent is country is feeling neglected in their own country, how can the country count on them for it's development.
Ans after all this, quota in private sector also........
Lord save this country.....