In discipline in most disciplined Organization

S

sumitjattan

New member
NEW DELHI: The Army has been jolted by yet another shocking breach of discipline with a grim stand-off erupting between officers andjawans of an armoured unit after a soldier committed suicide at a military camp in the border district of Samba in Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday morning.

This comes close after officers and jawans of an artillery regiment deployed in the Nyoma sub-district of eastern Ladakh had violently clashed with each other - which left the unit commanding officer, two majors and two jawans grievously injured -- in May.

The incident on Wednesday was triggered when the jawan, Arun V, who hails from Thiruvananthapuram, shot himself with his service rifle in the camp of the 16th Light Cavalry at Samba in the morning. He died on the spot.

Sources said "tension" between the officers and jawans of the 16th Cavalry had been "simmering for quite some time" without any corrective steps being taken. The suicide proved to be the tipping point. "Angry jawans then ganged up to surround the officers and their residences in protest, leading to a prolonged face-off," said a source.

The gravity of the situation and the "complete failure of command and control" was such that senior officers, including the commander of the Yol-based 9 Corps, Lt-General A K Bhalla, rushed to the spot to calm down inflamed tempers. All officers of the 16th Cavalry were subsequently moved out of their residences and attached to different messes as a precautionary move to prevent the trouble from escalating further.

There were even indications that two Army units had been rushed to Samba, which houses a brigade and the armoured regiment, to control the situation. The Army HQ in New Delhi, on being contacted, said a court of inquiry had been ordered into the incident but denied that there was any violent brawl between the officers and jawans.

"There was a suicide but no clash. Yes, the unit officers have been moved to different messes to ensure an impartial probe. The corps commander (Lt-Gen Bhalla) is camping in the area and the situation is under control," said an officer.

All this does not happen if the case is of a simple suicide. Incidentally, defence minister A K Antony on Wednesday told Parliament that as many as 1,018 soldiers had committed suicide since 2003, with the yearly toll regularly climbing over 100. Incidents of fragging (to kill or wound a fellow soldier) have also become a regular phenomenon in the 1.13-million strong Army.

A report by the Defence Institute of Psychological Research had earlier held that "perceived humiliation and harassment, over and above occupational and familial causes", at the hands of their superiors often serves as the final "trigger" for jawans in stress-related cases in the armed forces.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...face-off-again-in-JK/articleshow/15410834.cms



​
 
it is indscipline on part of soldiers from officers point of view , justified from soldiers point of view. today society,social structures family ,relationships,friendships,hierarchies in society are crumbling with the wind of changes which are sweeping everything.
globalisation,communication has changed the way things used to be,status-quo is very hard to maintain.we usually hear the way soldiers are treating by their officers,undignified jobs like household chores vegetable buying giving walk to doggy are no more excepted by soldiers,the sahib,mai baap role is no more mean to exercise authority.
this is being manifested in many ways killing,disobeying seniors,suicides,mutiny etc.
 
Guys I think we should refrain from commenting on this issue ! It would be appreciable if any Jat brother in the Defence Forces can shed some light on this issue. As civilians, it would be improper to comment on such a large, communal friendly and glorious organization.

Everything we see is not what it seems to be !
 
if these issues can be debated on news channelsand in newspapers ,i don`t see any harm in expressing our views.
army is a institution of state,which is union of india lot of people over here have their relatives,friends and they themselves in army ,if everybody shed their experience we can rather understand problem if a better way.yes we should not defame or give incorrect information.every institution have problems and only by having larger view by havin discussion we come to know about them.
i think our army does effect common people in many ways so there is no wrong in talking about army.
 
सो बातां की एक बात | सिपाही अर अफसर दोनु फोजी हों सें | पर रिश्ता नौकर और मालिक का स | अफसर आज भी आपणे आप ने अंग्रेज समझें सें | जब की दोनुआँ में होणा चाहिए "सहयोगी " का रिश्ता ,जो की नदारद स |
 
क्योंकि या फ़ौज अंग्रेजां की बनोयडी हे उस टेम वे अंग्रेजां ने ही अफसर बनाया करदे थे हर रिश्ता मालिक नौकर बर्गा इ होया करदा. इस में भी बहोत सुधार की गुन्जायिश हे
 
shekharjat said:
if these issues can be debated on news channelsand in newspapers ,i don`t see any harm in expressing our views.
army is a institution of state,which is union of india lot of people over here have their relatives,friends and they themselves in army ,if everybody shed their experience we can rather understand problem if a better way.yes we should not defame or give incorrect information.every institution have problems and only by having larger view by havin discussion we come to know about them.
i think our army does effect common people in many ways so there is no wrong in talking about army.
Click to expand...

Shekhar, please read my post again. I am not saying that it is wrong to talk about the Army. I, myself am an Army Officers son but still don't consider myself in a position to comment on the situation raised by Sumit in the original post. That is why I said that if a Jat Officer in the Defence Services could shed some light on the matter it would be more proper and then we can carry on the discussion based on his comments and insight.
 
A Very Complex Subject...

Dear Friends,

Greetings!

Military leadership is a very complex subject and even someone who has served in the armed forces for a long time can’t claim to be an authority on the subject. It is very easy to make offhand comments about officers and/or Jawans. There are no good or bad battalions it is only officers who are good or bad. What happened in Leh and Samba are different situations but one commonality; an obvious ‘failure of command’.

Those interested in knowing as to how the Indian Army officer cadre came into existence should read a book called ‘A matter of Honor’ by Philip Mason. By saying that the Indian Officer cadre is carrying on the legacy of the British is rather far fetched. Just because the cadets are exposed to Riding, Golf, Polo, Billiards and Croquet in the training academies and some of them follow the sport later in life does not mean they are ‘Angez’ or ‘Angrez ki aulaad’. Having a 'Sahayak' (earlier called Orderly) does not make one an 'Angrez'. Just for everyone's information even Naib Subedars, Subedars and Subedar Majors too have Sahayaks allocated to them.

There have been comments about officers misusing the Jawans for household chores. Is it true? Yes, it is. Is it avoidable? Yes, it is. Does every officer do so? No. However, one needs to understand the ‘Officer – Jawan Relationship’ in context of regimentation. I have served with multi religious/ethnic troops for long enough to say a few things. I had a dog too. Did my ‘Sahayak’ walk the dog? Yes he did. Did he object? No he did not. Could he have objected? Yes he could have. Why he didn’t do so? Now the answer to this question is the crux of ‘Officer – Jawan Relationship’. He did not do so because he knew that his company commander (that is me) was an absolutely fair, impartial, honest, hardworking, dependable and trustworthy individual. He has seen me through and through from the time I was a 2nd Lieut. By living together in extreme unlivable conditions for long periods we have persevered together. We have mutual respect for each other. He knows that his officer will always lead from the front. He knows that after a long march or a night out on an ambush, his officer first ensured that Jawans were the first to be fed and rested before the next challenge; day after day. He knows that during endurance training his officer ensured that he sat down to rest after every Jawan had had a rest and a drink or a smoke. He knows that his officer shared a ‘Beedi’ with him. He knows that his officer danced with him and others during festivities. He knows that his officer enquired about his family’s welfare when no one else did. I can go on and on and on. An officer worth his salt will only be looked at by his Jawans with respect and reverence. A Jawan looks for few qualities in his officer and if he can find them he will lay down his life for him.

There are indeed bad apples in the armed forces too. They are officers but hardly have any officer like qualities and do not understand the intricacies of command. There are many reasons for that and not in the preview of this topic. Like I said the subject is very complex.

What is the solution? The Army is very much aware of the fault lines that are appearing in the officer – men relationship and I am sure they would again go into the basics of man management. I have now been out of the ‘Fauj’ since 2001 and may be I am outdated with the present ground situation. Hopefully, the problem will not only be contained but minimized too. But the effects of materialism are staring in our faces and it will be very difficult to motivate the ‘Fauj’ to lay down their lives for the nation in the future. There are genuine questions being asked by the officer cadre as well. It would take a lot of effort to lay down their lives when everyone else is enjoying looting the country. Some issues were highlighted by the PM in his speech.

Best regards,

JS Malik
 
Jagmohan sir, thanks for the illuminating post. Its true most of us here arent exposed to the officer-jawan relationship and often make assumptions.

I couldn't help but ask you this question (and I hope you will allow me the temerity to do so) - When the sahayak walked your dog or performed any other chore for that matter, did you feel a tinge of guilt? Did the thought cross your mind that the job he is doing isn't a soldier's job and isn't what he's trained to do? If yes, how did you handle it?
 
My frank answer to your questions:

Q: When the sahayak walked your dog or performed any other chore for that matter, did you feel a tinge of guilt?

A: No.

Q: Did the thought cross your mind that the job he is doing isn't a soldier's job and isn't what he's trained to do?

A: No. Walking a German Shepard Dog that doubles up as a guard dog at a post on the Line of Control is fine by me.

Q: If yes, how did you handle it?

A: NA
 
jagmohan said:
My frank answer to your questions:

Q: When the sahayak walked your dog or performed any other chore for that matter, did you feel a tinge of guilt?

A: No.

Q: Did the thought cross your mind that the job he is doing isn't a soldier's job and isn't what he's trained to do?

A: No. Walking a German Shepard Dog that doubles up as a guard dog at a post on the Line of Control is fine by me.

Q: If yes, how did you handle it?

A: NA
Click to expand...

Thank you for your honest answers.

My underlying thought about those questions was that a soldier required to do a non-soldier's job could lead to grievances which when combined with other factors, may lead to cases like the recent ones. As you explained, many a times the Jawan too doesnt feel bad as he looks up to the officer and respects him. But when the trust and respect aint there, conflicts arise.

During your time, did you see such problems? How would you have handled them if you were tasked by the army leadership to tackle the problem?

I hope you wont mind my inquisitive nature. I am trying to dig deeper and possibly look for solutions, though I understand its hardly a one man's job.
 
jagmohan said:
Dear Friends,

Greetings!


Best regards,

JS Malik
Click to expand...

जगमोहन जी ,भारतीय नौसेना में इस तरह के सहायक उपलब्ध नहीं करवाए जाते हैं , वो भी फौज ही हे, वे भी अपना काम खुद करते हैं, या सिविलियन नौकर रखते हैं अपने खर्चे पर | क्या वे कमतर अधिकारी हैं , भारतीय थलसेना से ? फिर थल सेना के आधिकारिओं को सहायक की आवश्यकता क्यों हे ? क्या इंग्लेंड की फौज के अधिकारी भी सहायक रखते हैं ? ( जिनकी नक़ल भारतीय अधिकारी करते हैं )| क्या अधिकारिओं के लिए कुत्ते पालना जरुरी हे ? क्या एक सिपाही भी कुत्ता पाल सकता हे ? और जहां -जहां भी वो जाए अपने साथ ले जा सकता हे ?
 
.

http://www.jagran.com/news/national-jawan-climbs-cell-tower-to-protest-9577083.html


छुंट्टी नहीं मिली तो टॉवर पर चढ़ा फौजी

नई दिल्ली। सेना के अधिकारियों पर मनमानी करने व छुंट्टी न देने का आरोप लगाते हुए एक फौजी नई दिल्ली रेलवे स्टेशन के समीप स्थित रेलवे के टेलीफोन टॉवर पर चढ़ गया। तकरीबन सौ फुट ऊंचे टॉवर पर चढ़कर उसने अपना मांग पत्र लोगों को दिया। मांग पत्र में उसने अधिकारियों द्वारा प्रताड़ना की कहानी लिखी है। देर रात उसे उतारने की कोशिश जारी थी। फौजी का कहना है कि जब तक इस मामले में रक्षा मंत्री हस्तक्षेप नहीं करेंगे, वह नीचे नहीं आएगा।

जवान का कहना है कि सेना में अधिकारियों की हिटलरशाही चलती है। उनकी बात न मानने पर जवानों पर तरह-तरह के सितम ढाए जाते हैं। पिता की मौत होने पर उसने तीन दिन की छुंट्टी मांगी थी, लेकिन एक दिन की छुंट्टी दी गई। वापस लौटने पर उसका स्थानांतरण करने के साथ ही तरह-तरह से परेशान किया जाने लगा। तमिलनाडु निवासी के मुथू 1998 में सेना में खेल कोटे से भर्ती हुआ था। वर्तमान में राजस्थान के कोटा में तैनात है।

जुलाई से ही वह बगैर छुट्टी की स्वीकृति के यूनिट से गायब है। पुलिस अधिकारियों ने बताया कि वह बेंगलूर से स्पाइस जेट के विमान से शुक्रवार को राजधानी पहुंचा। दिल्ली आने के बाद वह सीधा मिंटो रोड आया और टावर पर चढ़ गया।

फायर अधिकारी एमके चटोपाध्याय ने बताया कि घटना की सूचना पीसीआर से उन्हें एक बजे मिली थी। इसके बाद से ही हाइड्रोलिक प्लेटफार्म के माध्यम से विभाग के छह कर्मी उसे उतारने के प्रयास में लगे थे। सूचना के बाद सेना के वरिष्ठ अधिकारी ब्रिगेडियर व कमाडेंट भी वहा पहुंच गए थे। उन्होंने फोन से फौजी से बात की और उसे समस्या के समाधान का भरोसा दिलाया। लेकिन उस पर अधिकारियों की बात का कोई असर नहीं हुआ। बताया जाता है कि जवान पहले भी बेंगलूर में अपनी मागों को लेकर टावर पर चढ़ गया था। पाच पन्ने के माग पत्र में के. मुथू ने सेना के अधिकारियों पर गंभीर आरोप लगाए हैं।

उसका कहना है कि बेंगलूर पोस्टिंग के दौरान अधिकारियों ने उसके साथ काफी गलत व्यवहार किया। उसने अपने पत्र में अधिकारियों द्वारा मारपीट की बात भी लिखी है। उसका कहना है कि वह जब इसकी शिकायत लेकर उच्च अधिकारी के पास गया तो उन्होंने भी कोई कार्रवाई नहीं की।

.
 
jagmohan said:
Dear Friends,

Greetings!

It would take a lot of effort to lay down their lives when everyone else is enjoying looting the country. Some issues were highlighted by the PM in his speech.

Best regards,

JS Malik
Click to expand...

First of all, let me salute the bravery and dedication of our army men (officers included). But, to say that "everyone else is looting the country" is an overstatement. There have been instances of corruption in Army too. There are people in every walk of life with matching dedication and honesty. It is true that brothers and sisters in our army lay down their lives for the sake of national security and sovereignty but the fact should not be ignored that they get suitably rewarded for their gallantry and sacrifice. They get a Hero’s welcome on return from the battle-field and families of the martyrs are well looked after by the establishment. People hold them in high esteem. Obviously, society’s expectations from them would be genuinely higher than that from lessor mortals in other walks of like. To assume sanctimonious postures towards army just because of their unique sacrifice would tantamount to closing our eyes to the faultlines pervading in our defence establishment which have, of late, been corroding the image of this honourable profession.

The ever-increasing incidence of suicides by Jawans in our elite force is a matter of anxiety which needs to be mulled over seriously. The Jawans are entitled to the same dignity as the senior officer enjoy. It is very unfortunate that a Jawan who is inducted in the service to serve the nation has to serve the individual interests of their senior officers. The errands like taking care of dogs, cleaning and sweeping the residences, cooking and shopping should not be a part of their duty. The age old system of providing orderlies must be done away with. At the most government can sanction some servant wages to senior officers to engage domestic assistants. Nonethless, I hold our Army in high esteem.
 
Last edited:
Dear All,

It is a bit unfair to ask me ‘Why’ & ‘How’ of everything connected to the tradition of provision of orderlies (Sahayaks) in the Army. My simple answer is that it is authorized as per Defence Service Regulations (DSR). They are on the establishment strength of both ‘War’ and ‘Peace’ manpower planning. The day government amends the DSR and abolishes the system of Sahayaks, I am sure the Army shall follow it in letter and spirit.

Frankly I don’t know why Naval Officers are not authorized orderlies. But a month back I was called for dinner by a Rear Admiral of the Navy and he had three serving sailors doing the household chores. Three months back I happened to visit a friend who is an IG of Haryana Police and there were at least five ‘Policemen’ working in his house. Notwithstanding that, I don’t like Sahayaks being misused by Army Officers.

Most Armies in the world have a system of orderlies for Officers. One can do a little bit of research and find out about the same. I can say this with certainty because I regularly see foreign military delegations, including British Army, very closely and soldiers are part of the delegations and are attached with officers to do various tasks.

Yes, in peace stations even Soldiers who stay with families can keep pets. Please visit any OR line in a peace station and you will find a number of pets including dogs. I used to see many in Navy Nagar in Mumbai. However, it is wrong to say that every officer has a pet dog.

There have been incidents of mutiny by units and it is not possible to go into the details of those in a forum like this. May be one can read about them in books published by many defence experts. I have closely seen one unit that went on to rebel in the aftermath of OP Blue Star.

I agree that there are rising tensions in all walks of life including in the armed forces. I also have no doubt that leadership concerned is aware of these problems and whenever there is a breakdown of command and control, actions are immediately taken to punish those responsible.

Lastly, a lot depends upon the Officer himself. His own value system has to be up there and he must prove himself each day worthy of commanding troops.

Best regards,

JS Malik
 
Dear Malik Sir, thank you so much for your invaluable comments. You have taken the words which were in my heart and mind immediately upon reading this thread. I really wanted and was hoping that the thread would be replied to by a person of your calibre. Once again salutations Sir !
 
Rana ji i will take care of this in future ...after pasting it i thought about the intensity of issue

anilrana said:
Guys I think we should refrain from commenting on this issue ! It would be appreciable if any Jat brother in the Defence Forces can shed some light on this issue. As civilians, it would be improper to comment on such a large, communal friendly and glorious organization.

Everything we see is not what it seems to be !
Click to expand...
 
:applause:
SumitJattan said:
Rana ji i will take care of this in future ...after pasting it i thought about the intensity of issue
Click to expand...

Dude, the thread is perfectly fine. All i wanted to say was that an officer's comments on the issue would rightly highlight the officer and jawans relationship in the right way. Please continue to post threads with any good relevance. Your posts are highly anticipated bro ! :applause:
 
ravinderjeet said:
जगमोहन जी ,भारतीय नौसेना में इस तरह के सहायक उपलब्ध नहीं करवाए जाते हैं , वो भी फौज ही हे, वे भी अपना काम खुद करते हैं, या सिविलियन नौकर रखते हैं अपने खर्चे पर | क्या वे कमतर अधिकारी हैं , भारतीय थलसेना से ? फिर थल सेना के आधिकारिओं को सहायक की आवश्यकता क्यों हे ? क्या इंग्लेंड की फौज के अधिकारी भी सहायक रखते हैं ? ( जिनकी नक़ल भारतीय अधिकारी करते हैं )| क्या अधिकारिओं के लिए कुत्ते पालना जरुरी हे ? क्या एक सिपाही भी कुत्ता पाल सकता हे ? और जहां -जहां भी वो जाए अपने साथ ले जा सकता हे ?
Click to expand...
Bhai sahab ye aise aise thath India mei hi milte hain. Ye babu apne power ke nashe mei reh hain(IAS,IPS etc) aur Indian government to inko poora shelter deti hai. Job security for no reason, no accountability, automated promotion for no reason etc. Civil services reform is must otherwise whole nation will be suffering as usual.
 
Last edited:
jagmohan said:
Dear All,

Three months back I happened to visit a friend who is an IG of Haryana Police and there were at least five ‘Policemen’ working in his house.
Click to expand...

This reminds me the old days of British Raj. Babu's full power, influence. We are still following this outdated system in 21st century. No substantial reforms in Civil services. The biggest bottleneck in the progress of India.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top