In discipline in most disciplined Organization

[rsdalal]

Most of the govt dept have the same culture, officers misuse their powers and subordinates are forced (and some chamchas do this on their own )
And as Malik sir said, where it is not on paper still officers use jawans for their household work.
One friend of mine, whose father worked for railways as a regional head, he told me that his dad when he used to get ready in the morning one person used to bring his shoes and used to tie shoe laces for him.
This person was a railway karmchari and I am sure there is no such job (at least officially) in railways of this description.
I think it happens in most of the govt departments, police, forces, you name it.

 

[rsdalal]

रविंदर भाई कत्ती ठीक कहा , पर इस हर Govt Department में से, जो की कत्ती नहीं होना चाहिए...

सो बातां की एक बात | सिपाही अर अफसर दोनु फोजी हों सें | पर रिश्ता नौकर और मालिक का स | अफसर आज भी आपणे आप ने अंग्रेज समझें सें | जब की दोनुआँ में होणा चाहिए "सहयोगी " का रिश्ता ,जो की नदारद स |

 

[fateh]

First of all I feel sory and seek your forgiveness for breaking my self imposed stop against taking part in the discussion on jatland,but since the topic is important which not only effecting the thinking of national public but jats in perticular, I decided to pen my views based on my knowledge and experience, Though, more than 12 years have pased after my retirement and lot of coloured water has crossed over the society andthe defence services after my retirement but still,
A) The relationship between oficers and jawans is of family type like parents and children or elders and youngers,relationship of trust, faith,confidence, love, mutual respect, brotherhood, comeradeship and not at all as some of members are immaging, generally mostof the. most of the officers love their jawans like their children, lookafter interest/training/safty/progress/welfare liketheir own children , officers look after health/food/feelings and well being of ladies and childrensof jawan like mother of the house
In defence services the main method of teahing is by self examples,self disciplineisconsideredthe best discipline, Itis only in defence services where for same offence seniors and specially officersare given severe/more punishment, theorganisation demands more from officers whether it is discipline/behaviour/professional competence, at times an officermay abuse a juniorofficer but not to jawan/JCOs Ill treating a subordinate isa serious offence indefence services and it is practically implemented onground when ever/where ever required, the principle of ruleof law isfollowed strictly,,many officers were given punishment even for not returning the salute of a jawan. Gentilemen,it good leadership, honest/just/fair/effectionate dealings,good behaviour, good conduct, good discipline and good professional competence of officers which motivates and make him willing toto die happily on the directions of his officer,other anyonecan try even with hisson/any family member, no body will obey the directions of death. Due to requirement service, role of the service, the command structure,strictdiscipline and powers to verious ranks/appointments have been given and I can tell 99% these powers/legal provisions are used in positive manner,I am sure no democratic or fauj with powerless command will fight any war and even,misuse the fire power available against each other only.
Now as far as the batman/sahayak isconcern, the impression expressed by some people here is totally wrong,sahayak is givento officers and to the JCOs to help them in performing their official duty and 99% they are used for help only, atlist I have not/not seen sahayak being used in kitchen, for washing cloths, looking after children, making beds, offering drinks/water/snacks to guests etc, my sahayak through out my service, never polished even shoesofmy wife and children, . sahayaks are given proper treatment andrespect by the officer, his wifeandchildren, generally unwilling fellow is not detailed for sahayak duty,after every oneyear or so, the sahayak is changed But there is some dissatisfaction/indicipline among officers as well as inJCOs and jawans probably due to following
a) fivefingures are not equal/exceptions are every where.
b) all defence personnel come from civil society, they are connected with civil society,their family members are civilians and stay in civil society thus influance of the society can not be avoided 100%.
c) Breakingof joint family system has effected the standredof happiness/satisfaction/ his requirement at home for his family/children.
d) materialstic thinking of the society.
e) increase of communication facilities.
f) political interferience invarious matters including promotions.
g) poor intake in both officers and jawans cadrethe organisation in many ways
Fnally i do agree that officers from refugee community have demaged

 

[ssgoyat]

कमल की बात है की लोग कैसे इस ब्रितानवी दुर्भ्ग्यपूर्ण निति को न्याय संगत ठहराने की कोशिश कर रहे हैं...
की पडोसी अगर सड़क पे कचरा फैंकता है तो हम क्यूँ न फेंके..

क्यूँ नहीं ... हम मुल्क की एयर फ़ोर्स.. नेवी ..
या और देशो की आर्मी .. प्राइवेट संस्थानों से प्रेरणा लेते...??

 

[fateh]

Atlist, chhalani should not talk which has thousands of wholes.

Niether, I am trying justify any thing nor recommending such practices to continue,I am trying to submit the reality which I have seen personally, Had the system been so bad/unjustified, it wpold not have survived for such a long period. My humbal submission is that the impression expressed by moston the thread is not existingin majority of cases and I can tell you with full surity that all such incidents of indecipline, are not due to the practice of sahayak. Yes there is dissatisfaction among defence personnel but the main reason is that they are not given their dues (money/facilities/place/respect/recognition) by the society/govt.
May I request the member to think again, is it a correct way/manner to take part in a civilised discussion and more so on a family forum, this is how discussion get hot, takes unwanted turn and spoil the relationship also, we should comment on the topic, not on the people Every onewho participatesin anydiscussion, he/she triesto justify somepoint and that is why discussion takes place other wise thereisno discussion ifweall agree on same viewpoint

 

[ssgoyat]

:livid:Atlist, chhalani should not talk which has thousands of wholes.
May I request the member to think again, is it a correct way/manner to take part in a civilised discussion and more so on a family forum, this is how discussion get hot, takes unwanted turn and spoil the relationship also, we should comment on the topic, not on the people Every onewho participatesin anydiscussion, he/she triesto justify somepoint and that is why discussion takes place other wise thereisno discussion ifweall agree on same viewpoint

Mr. Fateh,

If your comment is on me. Read ahead:-

MIND YOUR TONE, WATCH YOUR WORDS & AVOID THE PAIN. Your this habit of making direct/in direct personal attacks has embarrassed you many a times in past also, to the extent of self-quitting JL. And whole of the JL is witness of that.you've been awarded infractions also for not listening to even moderators, sending inflamatory messages via PM. It's not just me with whom you attempt to lock horns with.

Now you're back from the self imposed exile and again traversing the same path.

I truely, deeply, madly, sincerly, affectionately wish Could one better learn from the previous mistakes and lead a life with rather dignity, respect, peace joy & happiness.

~ Amen ~

 

[swaich]

Atlist, chhalani should not talk which has thousands of wholes.

Niether, I am trying justify any thing nor recommending such practices to continue,I am trying to submit the reality which I have seen personally, Had the system been so bad/unjustified, it wpold not have survived for such a long period. ......

The longevity of a system may not always be the proof that it was beneficial for all parties concerned. As a corollary, the caste system in its most rigid forms that included untouchability, survived for close to two millenia. So can we justify this as proof enough that the caste system was good for everybody in the society? I guess not.

And this is not to say that the Sahayak/Orderly system is the only one factor responsible for the recent events. One can notice most of these incidents happen in disturbed areas like J&K , NE etc where the stress is high, risk is greater and the men are away from their families for long durations. So its a combination of many factors. As Jagmohan ji said, the Army is aware of the situation and hopefully they will come up with effective steps and corrective measures.

 

[fateh]

Mr. Fateh,

If your comment is on me. Read ahead:-

MIND YOUR TONE, WATCH YOUR WORDS & AVOID THE PAIN. Your this habit of making direct/in direct personal attacks has embarrassed you many a times in past also, to the extent of self-quitting JL. And whole of the JL is witness of that.you've been awarded infractions also for not listening to even moderators, sending inflamatory messages via PM. It's not just me with whom you attempt to lock horns with.

Now you're back from the self imposed exile and again traversing the same path.

I truely, deeply, madly, sincerly, affectionately wish Could one better learn from the previous mistakes and lead a life with rather dignity, respect, peace joy & happiness.

~ Amen ~

First, you commented thpeople are trying to justify, so you tell me ,whom you refered your post, only, two defence officers expressed their views,and views came immediately after my post, rest what ever you said is return to you for action please, please bother for yourself.

 

[ssgoyat]

First, you commented thpeople are trying to justify, so you tell me ,whom you refered your post, only, two defence officers expressed their views,and views came immediately after my post, rest what ever you said is return to you for action please, please bother for yourself.

Good, Thanks for mellowing down. Could you also adjust the font color pls, if not size. Anything other than Red will do fine.

 

[rameshlakra]

I think following problems plaque IA:-

1. Shayak have nothing to do with this problem. Shayaks are too happy to do any job and and therefore equally responsible for degrading their worth. Shayaks are a speciaprivilegege given to IA officers and fully justified (let me not dwell on that as that would be besides the topic). There are very few bad examples in this regards and IA has been successful in taming defaulting officers. Negative publicity in the past few years have resulted in bad name to this tradition and few black sheeps (unfortunately increasing) among the officers are responsible.

2. Main issue is degradation of the officer cadre in recent times. There are many reasons, however the chief among them is - Poor Opportunities and Armed Forces not a first choice amongst present generation, corruption and poor leadership shown by top brass, culture of moral corruption in the smaller units (chindi chori), poor intake and lowering of SSB standard, lowering of training standards (could never think that officer posted at NDA involve themselves in low level corruption in grade 4 recruitment, Commandant involved too).

3. Finally, at every walk of India there stands CORRUPTION of money, mind and morality and ethics.

Solution ---- Please vote for Team Anna and check spread of corruption at every walk of life and it is threatning to destroy the country.

 

[ssgoyat]

Open Questions:-

1. Does anybody know any govt organisation other than the Indian Army that has this Sahayak system (officially)?
2. Besides Indian Army & Pakistan Army (that still operates on British pattern: where Angrej officers used to came from upper class) what all other armies in the world that still have batmanship practise?
3. As we have many ex/present defence officers in forum, they must be knowing about the official duties of Batman. Can anyone list it down here, for our knowledge.


Some facts, i searched over google :-

1. Indian Navy, Indian Air Force have already done away with Batman practise.
2. French Army: Batmen were abolished after World War II
3. Italian Army: Attendente were eventually abolished in 1971.
4. Russia & Soviet Union: positions were abolished in the post-Revolutionary Soviet Union
5. United States: Enlisted aides are available to support some of the needs of General officers who serve in command positions in the rank of Major General and above, and their equivalent naval ranks. These aides "perform tasks and details that, if performed by general or flag officers, would be at the expense of the officer’s primary military and official duties." However, their assistance is restricted to only those tasks which are directly related to an officer's official duties. Federal law prevents an enlisted soldier from serving as a servant.

A batman's duties often include:
acting as a "runner" to convey orders from the officer to subordinates
maintaining the officer's uniform and personal equipment as a valet
driving the officer's vehicle, sometimes under combat conditions
acting as the officer's bodyguard in combat
other miscellaneous tasks the officer does not have time or inclination to do

The action of serving as a batman was referred to as "batting". In armies where officers typically came from the upper class

 

[sumitjattan]

They are known as Aide-de-camp and best example is King of Patiala capt Amrinder Singh was ADC to Lt Gen Hurbax Singh in 1965 war

Open Questions:-

1. Does anybody know any govt organisation other than the Indian Army that has this Sahayak system (officially)?
2. Besides Indian Army & Pakistan Army (that still operates on British pattern: where Angrej officers used to came from upper class) what all other armies in the world that still have batmanship practise?
3. As we have many ex/present defence officers in forum, they must be knowing about the official duties of Batman. Can anyone list it down here, for our knowledge.


Some facts, i searched over google :-

1. Indian Navy, Indian Air Force have already done away with Batman practise.
2. French Army: Batmen were abolished after World War II
3. Italian Army: Attendente were eventually abolished in 1971.
4. Russia & Soviet Union: positions were abolished in the post-Revolutionary Soviet Union
5. United States: Enlisted aides are available to support some of the needs of General officers who serve in command positions in the rank of Major General and above, and their equivalent naval ranks. These aides "perform tasks and details that, if performed by general or flag officers, would be at the expense of the officer’s primary military and official duties." However, their assistance is restricted to only those tasks which are directly related to an officer's official duties. Federal law prevents an enlisted soldier from serving as a servant.

A batman's duties often include:
acting as a "runner" to convey orders from the officer to subordinates
maintaining the officer's uniform and personal equipment as a valet
driving the officer's vehicle, sometimes under combat conditions
acting as the officer's bodyguard in combat
other miscellaneous tasks the officer does not have time or inclination to do

The action of serving as a batman was referred to as "batting". In armies where officers typically came from the upper class

 

[ssgoyat]

As Jagmohan ji said, the Army is aware of the situation and hopefully they will come up with effective steps and corrective measures.

Update on the same issue, as anticipated.

Dark side of Army: Soft on officers, harsh on jawans


Five soldiers are being sacked, another four will face court martial under "disciplinary action". Three JCOs are to face "disciplinary action" .


while four officers, including the unit commanding officer (CO), will face mere "administrative action" for the unrest that was triggered in the 16th Light Cavalry unit after a soldier, Arun V, shot himself with his service rifle on August 8, 2012 in Samba.

Further reading: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...cers-harsh-on-jawans/articleshow/18963275.cms
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1. This is further a blow on the morale of already low moral-ed jawan's.
2. Sends a strong indirect message from Officer party to jawan party: "Baap baap hota hai"... "we are the rulers"

If my memory serves correctly. Mr. Fateh has served in JAG branch of Indian Army. Wish he could throw some light from his invaluable experiences. (of-course, in a polite way)

For other readers knowledge: JAG Branch: Is a legal and judicial branch of Indian Army, That provide provide legal help to the military in all aspects, in particular advising the presiding of courts-martial on military law.