It can happen only in secular INDIA

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Babita,

I agree with you!! Being from jaipur( born and raised) , having house and businesses in jaipur, i am watching each and every movement of Raje. Past CM, Mr. Gehlot was living simple life. Although everything was old, furniture carpet, draperies......he decided to go with it, saving money for other work which state needed. Even during gehlot daughter's wedding, it was a simple marriage. Last wedding at CM's house was of Mohan lal sukhadia's daughter. ppl say it was grand wedding, but this was not. I am witness to it. But Circuit house( CM's office) went under major renovation during past CM regime.

Looking at the person she has hired for interior, budget might cross 1 crore. we will see......

talking about CM? talk about governer, Khurana: he had left for one month vacation for mount abu. Raje had already visited her home town dehradun 4 times last month, inluding 10 days after election.

Members: now don't jump on me!!! we are just worried about the state expenses. i have nothing do with personal life. but once someone is public figure, nothing remains personal.

peace!
 
Hi Babita,
U r right, the progress I saw in Rajasthan in last 5 yrs is more than what I have seen in rest of my life. Should the credit go to Gehlot or BJP may be debatable. But, I beleive it was the sync in Gehlots policy and BJPs in center that helped Rajasthan. But, now since both of them are gone, lets see what happens. There is no problem in spending money to renovate CM residence as long as they are also renovating roads and schools.
 
Vikas, Abhishek, Ganesh,

The questions in the first post are not posed by some innocent Indian looking for right answers. These are prepared by professional BJP propaganda artists to fool enough people by misdirecting them from real issues.

The word "Hindu" is really a very broad term but when it comes to the propagandists and/or their agents on various websites in these days, the word is reserved for the traditional Brahminical Hindu religion which I am so bitterly opposed to because it has harmed Jats (and many other peoples) for centuries. I am looking over a long time but here my concern is the rise of BJP among the groups like Jats.

By the end of 19th century the plight of Hindu Jats was awfully bad. Considerable progress was made by those who came under the influence of Arya samaj. Unfortunately, the values given to us by Arya Samaj are disappearing and the groups like BJP are becoming politically astute to take in few traitors from our community and have designs to exploit the whole community as it was done during earlier times. I am trying to warn at least the honest Jats who are willing to look at the available information.

I bring the name of Periyar (E.V. Ramaswammy Naicker) a lot. Let me write few words about him for those who may not have read about him. As you know Hinduism stayed strong in the south because Muslims did not penetrate the south to a great extent. He belonged to a Jat equivalent caste and was a devout Hindu. He went to Varanasi to study Hinduism. But he was awakened by the caste prejudices of the Brahmins and started the "self Respect Movement" in 1925. For the rest of his life, over 40 years, he campaigned against brahminism, caste, Congress, the hindu religion, and the disabilities of women. He became an atheist and he made two or three speeches a day over a very long life. He established the idea of self-respect marriages for non-brahmins, marriages conducted without priests or religious vows. He said "the poison of a cobra is in his tongue alone. The poison of Brahmin is from head to foot." His movement laid great emphasis on education for non-brahmins. He founded the DK which later fragmented to DMK, AIADMK, PMK, MMK, etc., but he got rid of the brahminical hindu religion from Tamilnadu. The Brahmins mostly left Tamilnadu and many people said the state will become backward without them. It did not. We need a Periyar in the north.

Rajendraji has pointed out the facts about the Hindu religion and I do not need to reiterate them here. The only thing is that do not be fooled by these crooks who are trying to misdirect our community and lead us to a downward path.
 
Respected Dr. Birbalji,

I'm not writting this post to support BJP/RSS or caste based system of hinduism. Never voted for BJP till date. I studied in a school run by one RSS child organisation for 1 year and saw there what they really are. They say something and do totally different when it comes to religion part.

What i feel is that jatland is not proper platform to teach such things. Not because it not the right forum to discuss such stuff, but as most of the peoples are educated here and everybody must be having an opinion. Its really difficult to change jat's opinion (applies to all concerned parties on jatland).
Anpadh jat to phir bhi samajh sakta hai, par padha likha kaabuu main aana muskil hi hai.
Its better u put your point and then let other think over it and decide on their own rather than saying same thing again and again.

regards,
Rahul


Dr. Birbal Singh (Jun 01, 2004 02:36 p.m.):
Dheeraj,

The basic reason behind my posts is for the uplift of the Jat community and raise members' awareness of the evils of Brahmanical Hindu Religion represented by BJP/RSS/Shiv Sena. More than 50 years ago when E.V.R. Naicker started doing this in Madras state (now Tamilnadu) one of the arguments used by his opponents was that the state's progress will suffer without the Brahmins. Well, look back and you find that he literally eradicated this evil religion and the state is now lot better off. Of course, when the people say 85% of India is Hindu, they include Tamilnadu as Hindu state but it really is not. The Northern India is today far behind the South because of the rising influence of these crooks.

If you have seen some Muslims celebrating Pakistani victory, I would ask you a simple question - are the Muslims truly treated fairly in India? The massacre in Gujerat was sponsored by the government with the excuse of a phony incident in Godhra (I have gone through all the information and found no evidence of that incident being a Muslim activity).

The propaganda artists of BJP/RSS have devised these kind of questions to divert attention of people from real issues. There is no need for us to regress to the past as it has been done by some Muslim countries.

You should also realize that India's superiority in nuclear research over Pakistan can be credited to Dr. Homi Bhabha and Dr. Kalam, both non-Hindus.

People like Bal Thakrey have used innocent/trusting people to serve their own cause. Only a couple of weeks ago I read an article that all the leaders of Shiv Sena send their kids to English medium schools but they preach Hindutva for the rest of us.

One of the direct result of the evils of Hinduism is the wretched poverty in the lower castes of India. The country can not progress unless every child has a reasonable access to education and opportunities. From now on I tell you just look carefully at the crowds on TV news in various countries and you will find how pathetic is the general situation is in India even compared to Pakistan. I feel shocked when I look at images on tv of Indian people and see basically a sick looking populace. Is India really "shining"?

I feel disgusted when I see a Jat praising Hinduism. There is nothing in it to be praised.
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very very thanks to all of u , rajendra ji , Dr. birbal singh and others to share
ur experience and knowledge about Hinduism.By putting this question in Jat land ,
it doesn't mean that I am a supporter of bjp /rss/shiv sena.I received this mail so i thought that their should be a debate on these points. it is not a political issue,and not about Hinduism or our caste system.
I just want to know from u that is there anything wrong in these points...
if India give such a honor to Muslim (which mention in these points )
Is it fair to celebrate Pakistan victory over India...
I agree that we should look ahead , compare India with developed country, not with Muslim countries.but as a Indian we should think abt this points that second majority religion of your country celebrates victory of your no .1 enemy.

if Raskhan Sang Krisha and Bismillah Khan playing Sehnai in Banaras temples.it means that they also found some great things in our god or our religion.
if any Hindu didn't spent his life time glorifying Allah , it means we didn't inspired by anything in their religion.everyone wants to follow their superiors not their inferior.

I agree that Punjabi Jat are richer than other Jat, but as we all know Before independence Punjab was a rich state. not only Jat but all other community r also richer that their counter part in rest of India.Punjab is 40 year ahead of other state like MP , UP, rajstan......
 
Ganesh Bhai,

Pakistan is not our enemy number one. Our thinking that "Pakistan is our enemy number one" is our number one enemy. We have to get out of this thinking. As long as we have such thinking about our neigbours other countries will keep taking advantage of it. We have a lot to learn from Europe. There are so many countries in Europe but they don't call each other enemy number one.

I know there are some issues but everyone including the common man needs to understand that it is really a good idea to get over it. Let us not promote a thinking of hatered. It is time we seriously talk about peace. There can be differences even between two brothers but if that makes them enemy number one of each other then it is really unfortunate for both of them.

Just a thought.

-ajmer

ganesh padoda (Jun 02, 2004 01:09 a.m.):
if India give such a honor to Muslim (which mention in these points )
Is it fair to celebrate Pakistan victory over India...
I agree that we should look ahead , compare India with developed country, not with Muslim countries.but as a Indian we should think abt this points that second majority religion of your country celebrates victory of your no .1 enemy.
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Dear all,

Discussing religion is, I think, is a waste of time. All religions are good if their teachings are followed properly. They also have inherent weaknesses but finding fault is the most easy and convenient thing to do. Comparing between two religions is just like comparing left hand driving and right hand driving; if you follow the rules both are o.k. but if you try to be rash, accident is bound to take place. As regards, RSS or BJP, if they are bad, doing harm to the society, who allowed them to be where they are today? It is we, who put them at such high pedestal because we did not take precautions. We are discussing about them is itself their strength. But at the same time, if somebody thinks that some other party, say Congress is good, they are really innocent ? Because congress's failures became BJP's strength. Congress allowed RSS to prosper and spread its wings all over India. During the last 20 years BJP has multiplied its presence hundredfold whereas congress is nowhere near to where it was 15 years back because they, even after remaining 45 years in power, didn't do anything for the country. 45 years is too long a period to take a country on the path of progress but they preferred to fool the people and fill their own coffers.

As regards harm to jats, nobody can do any harm to them unless they allow, but it is a pity that we jats have allowed all and sundry to advance by harming our interests. Today, ahirs, gujars and even SCs are marching forward faster because we have allowed them to go past us, by falling divided. The main drawback in jats, especially those educated and in positions of power, is that they take pride in finding fault in their own community instead of trying to eradicate those evils. For examples, if two jats are working in one organisation, they can rarely be friends. We fell behind because we stood divided, thus allowing others to take us for granted. We being a brave kaum otherwise, prove to be shirkers when it comes to education without which nobody not even God can take us anywhere. I have observed that the bottomline of the philosophy of our community seems to be : "Bhukhe marenge nahin, tarakki karenge nahin". We seem to be working towards mere survival and not putting much efforts towards progress otherwise those who used to be working on our fields would not have been living in posh kothis leaving us to rot where we are, for ages. The bottomline is that we lack individual efforts among most of the members of our community without which progress is not possible. If we are really sincere in our desire to see our community prospering, each one of us must put individual efforts to take our family forward, then village forward and look around; jats will be somewhere at top.

JAT - Justice And Truth


Rahul Malik (Jun 01, 2004 11:49 p.m.):
Respected Dr. Birbalji,

I'm not writting this post to support BJP/RSS or caste based system of hinduism. Never voted for BJP till date. I studied in a school run by one RSS child organisation for 1 year and saw there what they really are. They say something and do totally different when it comes to religion part.

What i feel is that jatland is not proper platform to teach such things. Not because it not the right forum to discuss such stuff, but as most of the peoples are educated here and everybody must be having an opinion. Its really difficult to change jat's opinion (applies to all concerned parties on jatland).
Anpadh jat to phir bhi samajh sakta hai, par padha likha kaabuu main aana muskil hi hai.
Its better u put your point than let other think over it and decide on their own rather than saying same thing again and again.

Few humble requests:
Each time you post something to uplift the jat community, you talk about what E.V.R. Naicker did in Madras state (now Tamilnadu). Why can't we have one such fellow who start here in jats? In my opinion the person who should start this revolution, should be the one who knows in & out about 'Naicker'. It’s time for us to practice rather than preach, preach and just preach.

As per your statement, Muslims are not treated fairly in india, so they are perfectly right if they are celebrating pakistan victory. Greaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.....
And no comment on gujrat riots and godhara incident, as i have never gone through all the information (As i don't have access to that classified info). But what i feel is that whatever happened in godhara was wrong and the riots were worst and gujrat gov. could and should have controlled that or otherwise vajpayee should have acted strongly by removing modi.

"I feel disgusted when I see a Jat praising Hinduism. There is nothing in it to be praised."

First of all can you define what is hinduism? As anil rightly pointed out you are mixing hinduism and caste system. Most of the jats follows Arya samaj and even if not you can't force religion on someone.

regards,
Rahul


Dr. Birbal Singh (Jun 01, 2004 02:36 p.m.):
Dheeraj,

The basic reason behind my posts is for the uplift of the Jat community and raise members' awareness of the evils of Brahmanical Hindu Religion represented by BJP/RSS/Shiv Sena. More than 50 years ago when E.V.R. Naicker started doing this in Madras state (now Tamilnadu) one of the arguments used by his opponents was that the state's progress will suffer without the Brahmins. Well, look back and you find that he literally eradicated this evil religion and the state is now lot better off. Of course, when the people say 85% of India is Hindu, they include Tamilnadu as Hindu state but it really is not. The Northern India is today far behind the South because of the rising influence of these crooks.

If you have seen some Muslims celebrating Pakistani victory, I would ask you a simple question - are the Muslims truly treated fairly in India? The massacre in Gujerat was sponsored by the government with the excuse of a phony incident in Godhra (I have gone through all the information and found no evidence of that incident being a Muslim activity).

The propaganda artists of BJP/RSS have devised these kind of questions to divert attention of people from real issues. There is no need for us to regress to the past as it has been done by some Muslim countries.

You should also realize that India's superiority in nuclear research over Pakistan can be credited to Dr. Homi Bhabha and Dr. Kalam, both non-Hindus.

People like Bal Thakrey have used innocent/trusting people to serve their own cause. Only a couple of weeks ago I read an article that all the leaders of Shiv Sena send their kids to English medium schools but they preach Hindutva for the rest of us.

One of the direct result of the evils of Hinduism is the wretched poverty in the lower castes of India. The country can not progress unless every child has a reasonable access to education and opportunities. From now on I tell you just look carefully at the crowds on TV news in various countries and you will find how pathetic is the general situation is in India even compared to Pakistan. I feel shocked when I look at images on tv of Indian people and see basically a sick looking populace. Is India really "shining"?

I feel disgusted when I see a Jat praising Hinduism. There is nothing in it to be praised.
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Dear R. K. Sehrawat ji,

You have hit the right nail. Nobody can put us down but ourselves.

Thanks.

r.k. sehrawat (Jun 04, 2004 10:19 a.m.):

As regards harm to jats, nobody can do any harm to them unless they allow......
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Shehrawatji,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. However, let me start with an example to differentiate between good, bad and evil.

In Rajasthan, after independence, lot of Jats through sheer hard work came from nowhere and did well in civil service exams (RAS, RPS), and admission to engineering and medical colleges. By 1977 they had dispelled all myths regarding Jats not being academically capable.

Bhairon Singh Sekhawat became Chief Minister in 1977 and I recognize him as being most cunning politician. He saw that a large number of Jats had reached the top heirarchy in administration, police, engineering and medical officer categories and lot of them were about 50-52 years of age as there were hardly any Jats in officer category in earlier days. He reduced the retirement age from 58 to 55 and gave six month extension to non-jats but basically cleaned out the top strata of Jats in one stroke. Within few months having done his dirty task he put the retirement age back to 58. Frther, during his 10 years as chief minister, only 9 jats were selected in Rajasthan Administrative services( I took this fact from Rajasthan Assembly debates).

Can you give me any explanation that I should not call this person as evil? No country can progress when such narrow minded people are allowed to reach the pinnacle of power.

I disagree that we are to blame for our problems. When it comes to infighting, Jats are not any different from most other communities. Though it is not a good idea to streotype people, I can say that in general, Jats (or I would say people with farmer background) are not as cunning, shrewed, and tricky like members of the communities that form the backbone of BJP (I feel no need to name those communities).

When you say all religions have good and bad I feel nothing to disagree with you. But I am sure you will agree that the so called "fundamentalists" in all religions have only done harm to their own religion. The fundamentalist Sikhs turned the most prosperous Indian state into a total mess for 15 years, fundamentalist Muslims have taken the muslim world to middle ages, hard line Catholics and Protestents have made Northern Ireland as an international educational centre for terrorism.

My objection was and still is with the first post being an act of professional propagandists to fool innocent people. Let me give one more example to answer one of the questions in the set about supporting a team.

I have been Canadian citizen for three decades and I am extremely grateful to the country for having provided me opportunities that brought me from bottom of society at birth to top of society now by any standards (in addition to being a professor, I have been a lead organizer of Liberal Party and Prime Minister Jean Chretien, have been appointed to several boards including Director of Innovation Ontario Corporation, 1992-1996, with authority to provide millions of dollars to start up businesses, faculty union president for years, Council member of the Canadian Association of University Teachers, recipient of provincial citizenship award). In 1978, during Commonwealth games in Edmonton, I saw a group of young men looking in awful shape but I immediately felt they were Jats. I stopped my car, got out and asked who they were? They were the members of the Indian wrestling team (Hind Kesri Satpal, Iswar Singh. Rajinder, Satveer and Ashok). When I told them I was a Jat, they "Chaudhary sahib hamare to bahut khraab haal hain, Kushto ko chhodo, hum to bhukhe mar rahe hain." The Chied de Mission was Vijay Kumar Malhotra and he did not give a damn for them. My wife took care of their food during their entire stay in Edmonton and Rajinder, Satveer and Ashok won gold medals, Satpal won silver and Ishwar won bronze. We fed them and showed them around. On the day before the finals in the shopping centre we ran into a gentleman from my neighborhood I said hello Mr. Wishart and he imediately recognized Satpal and said you are going for the Gold medal tonight against my son. I told him immediately "you know who I am supporting"? and he said of course, and you should support Satpal. Wishart won the gold medal. The point here that I am not any less loyal Canadian in supporting Satpal against my neighbor's son. Supporting teams is a complex matter and when put as an inflammatory question it can be really poisonous. You know during the Peshawar test match recently, Pakistanins Pathans were cheering for Irfan Khan Pathan. Were the anti-Pakistani?
 
Shehrawatji,

I just wanted to add that after coming to know the wrestlers so well, I was keenly looking towards their performance in 1982 Commonwealth games in Sydney. They did not win a single medal there. I think Lambaji was not in Sydney in 1982 otherwise he would have fed them, cheered them and they would have won few medals.
 
I couldn't agree more. As always Sehrawat Ji has very well explained the situation and highlighted the core issues. I would just like to see them in a little positive light.

I think Jats are doing just fine. Yes, there are some issues but as long as the basic values passed to us by our older generations are intact, we will do just fine. You know, in the end it is the basic principles of life which matter. Things like - hard work, honesty, compassion for others, patriotism, respect for our elders and liberal thinking. The only peices which are missing are _vision_ and _focus_.

I fully agree on the religion issue. All religions are almost equally good. For me, the best religion is humanity and no other religion. There is really no point discussing religion.

On divided jats. Yes, this is a big issue. But that is inherent in us. Everyone wants to be a leader. We just have to live with it. Look at the political situation in Haryana. Every house has a leader. We are simply not aligned. Jats keep fighting at local level. We have not seen many national level leaders except Ch. Charan Singh and Ch. Devi Lal.

On "Bhukhe marenge nahin, tarakki karenge nahin". Now that is nothing new. Also this is not just with Jats. It is true at individual level, community level and national level. Inside our own community, most the people who are better off today had to see hardship in their own life or their older generation. My Tau Ji and my father dropped out of their 4th grade and 8th grade because they were just two brothers and had 22 acres of land at their disposal. Others were 6 brothers with 5 acres of land so they didn't have much choice other than to keep studying or join armed forces or police. Thier kids then could go to city schools, are in high positions now and their families are doing much better today while we are still struggling. Look at the refugee's who had to touch the bottom to rise so high. At national level, look at Japan. So this indicates that Jats either have hit the bottom now or have some more room to go down before they can rise as a whole. But long term prospects are good in both the cases. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

Many people will not agree but I would also like to point out that when I say Jat I really mean the village community where I lived which included many other so called casts. It included all those people who were at a disadvantage just like me, those who lived just a few houses away from us but were known as other casts, the kids who went to school with torn out cloths and without shoes just like us, the families which worked as Jhoka and Pakawa (sorry if you don't know what these words mean) in our Kolhu, the families who helped us in harvesting our wheat and the families which worked right by our side when we worked in our fields. I really do consider them part of my community. It really didn't matter much which religion or cast they belonged to. They were just hard working people like us.

Yes, my community doesn't include those who spread propaganda and it doesn't include those who take others for a ride. But then we didn't have much time to think about such matters or listen to such things. Survival is the main issue at that level and struggle is the name of the game.

-ajmer

r.k. sehrawat (Jun 04, 2004 10:19 a.m.):
Dear all,

Discussing religion is, I think, is a waste of time. All religions are good if their teachings are followed properly. They also have inherent weaknesses but finding fault is the most easy and convenient thing to do. Comparing between two religions is just like comparing left hand driving and right hand driving; if you follow the rules both are o.k. but if you try to be rash, accident is bound to take place. ...snip...
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Respected Dr. Birbal Singhji,

As I have already stated without individual efforts nothing is possible. The jats are the people who have the potential to do much better but because of certain inherent evils prevalent in our villages, like alcoholism, they tend to be shirkers. If people in Rajasthan could reach higher positions, they could do so by individual efforts. No leader or political party came to them and bestowed the ranks on them. Marching on the path of progress, at least in India, is like marching in a jungle where you will come across so many hurdles like lack of finances, family problems as well as harmful creatures like Shekhawat. We have to be careful about them and just brush them aside and keep on moving forward. As regards our wrestlers and other players, their aim is always seems to be to get selected in the national team, get a job, after which they become complacent and lose initiative and don't make enough efforts. This I am saying as my own family and village have produced two olympians and 2-3 other international players, they had the potential to go much ahead but they could not as they were complacent after getting the jobs. Similarly, Satpal whom I also happen to know and before that Master Chandagi Ram, didn't do justice with their talent. Moreover, they allow the authorities to deny them the facilities they deserve by not protesting. No one, whether Malhotra or Tytler, can deny you the facilities, if you show the potential. The denial is the weakness of the deprived not the strength of provider. If people like Malhotra or Tytler or xyz, who have got nothing to do with sports have become providers, it is only because they are accepted by our sportspersons. Next, individual effort does not mean that we should do everything for our own interest, it also includes helping those individuals who have the potential but need some help. Mere lip service doesn't help. If you help others it gives you inner satisfaction. In my own life, I came across at least three jat boys who I thought could do something if provided help. Though, I myself is not very rich, I could somehow help them and am happy that at least two of them are well settled now and doing fine while one proved to be a hopeless case. Similarly, I guided at least two girls to prepare for the clerical exams and both of them are now in the middle level of government service. I feel happy when I see them happy in life. If helping others is not possible, we must try to educate at least our own children and make them responsible citizens of tomorrow. Let us resolve to help at least one deserving jat in life so that our community can march forward and claim the position in India which it deserves.

JAT - Just And Truth
 
Just to add something about how well jats r doing in India....this January there was a callout for all the Jat officers (gov. n non-gov.) in Jaipur. It was not a very planned event or anything (as my dad puts it)...but more than 250 Jats showed up, even from places like UP n MP. This trend now continues once in every 2 months n has been succesful till now. The main issues to consider in these meetings r conditions of Jats, fellowships to intelligent jat students etc. This tells us 2 things: jats r indeed doing good n they r concerned abt each other.
Babita
 
Babita,

Is this meeting of JATs an organized function or just a ad-hoc meeting without any agenda? If the JATs meeting is organised regularly, does it bear a name and a structure?

Thanks.

Babita (Jun 05, 2004 12:34 p.m.):
Just to add something about how well jats r doing in India....this January there was a callout for all the Jat officers (gov. n non-gov.) in Jaipur. It was not a very planned event or anything (as my dad puts it)...but more than 250 Jats showed up, even from places like UP n MP. This trend now continues once in every 2 months n has been succesful till now. The main issues to consider in these meetings r conditions of Jats, fellowships to intelligent jat students etc. This tells us 2 things: jats r indeed doing good n they r concerned abt each other.
Babita
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i agree with babita , Jats r really most hard working and successful in their field. In my region(Narmdanchal MP) Most of the Jats r farmar and they are most successful among other communities.
 
Agar jamin bachi ho to, jat kisan bhai successful bhi ho sakta hai aur hua bhi hai. Raada tho jamin na hone (ya bahut kam hone ka) ka hai.....

ganesh padoda (Jun 06, 2004 04:24 a.m.):
i agree with babita , Jats r really most hard working and successful in their field. In my region(Narmdanchal MP) Most of the Jats r farmar and they are most successful among other communities.
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It is called " Intellectuals forum for Jats". It was done first time to honor Senator Satveer Choudhary in Dec 2002, when he was visiting India with my husband. My husband and my BIL were present too in this event.( BTW, my BIL is a ex minister and it was his idea to bring everyone together) .On the next one, my sister was present, because she is a professor( minus BIL :-) ). This org is only for admistrators, officers, doctors, no politicians. And it is growing since than.
 
Thanks Dr Birbal Singh Ji for complements
regards
--------------------------------------------
Shehrawatji,

I just wanted to add that after coming to know the wrestlers so well, I was keenly looking towards their performance in 1982 Commonwealth games in Sydney. They did not win a single medal there. I think Lambaji was not in Sydney in 1982 otherwise he would have fed them, cheered them and they would have won few medals.[/quote]
 
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