malikdeepak1
New member
EXCLUSIVELY for those who say that "Panchayats don't order Honor Killings!"
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/national/crime/5_18_6315767.html
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/national/crime/5_18_6315767.html
jat movemment very urgent to save our heritage
- Thread starter mumindia
- Start date
prashantacmet
New member
Exclusively for you, neither that village is Jats inhabited nor couple/panchayat members are Jats. Are we on here for jat panchayats or for "35 kaums"? Keep the googling on and paste a link where a Jat panchayat gave death sentence. I am waiting!!
That clearly suggests that Khaps are supporting Honor Killing and they are uniting to keep alive the tradition of Honor Killing. This act will certainly boost the brilliant idea of Kiiling and the Killers would be treated like Heroes. Next generation would like to learn a lot from their HEROES.
Hindu Marriage ACT is uniformly practiced by all the Hindu communities of India. Do you really believe that Hindu Marriage Act will be specially amended for the people of Few Districts who are supporting the Murderes.
Cospirancy ... really ?
Against the innocent peoples who committed murders ?
By whom ? by Judges ? .... by victim's familes ? .....or by NON-JATS ?
Khaps never condemned these acts either. Now these khaps are uniting to support the honor killers. What that suggests ? The message is loud and clear that Khaps are supporting these Honor Killings.
This will help immensely in what??? Marrying outside the community, marrying a non-jat?????
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jitender.singh
New member
I think we need to try to conclude the debate as well, specially Praveen who started the debate titled, "jat movemment very urgent to save our heritage". I am not sure, if I joined the debate with the same intent that has been going through the discussion. However, it was worthy.
Here is my summary. (I am trying to ignore the discussions when people went overboard/ personal). Please correct me if somebody is interpretted incorrectly.
Praveen started the discussion with "Need of preservance of Jat Gotra system", rather than "jat movemment very urgent to save our heritage".
We have several people associating the people convicted in Karnal honour killing case as saviours of the system, whose act also drew criticism from 'moderate' Jats. (I prefer progressive though, but some have also neo-liberal morons, so I am chosing a non debatable word.) This also lead to the role of Khap Panchayats in such cases, which in my opinion is there, but obviously difficult to prove legally. However, even the supporters of Khap Panchayats are silent on their accountabilities and responsibilities, which I feel should be a lot more than what they seem to be doing (read: getting together to resolve gotra issues).
The following is my analysis on the root cause for the evolution of gotra system of marriage (it is there in a lot of communities, so I am assuming it has to do with scientific reason rather than just a ritual):
1. In order to avoid marriages till second cousins, we drafted a rule to avoid upto 2 lineages from both the boy and the girl's end. This meant both the boy and girl won't marry till they exclude their own gotra, mother's gotra, and grandmother's (both paternal and metarnal) gotra.
2. Given the context of the times the rules were drafted, it seemed to be a good starting point to avoid.
3. However, over the times things have gone complex as well as simpler. The complex part is that the gotra population distribution has changed and made things difficult to manage. People have started attaching honour with customs. Simplicity part is that education has improved a lot in our community over times.
Some of the freinds have expressed sharp reactions to the thoughts on the suggestions on Gotra system, treatment of the voilators, or authority of Khap panchayat, but that is boud to happen if you get the reactions to such incidents from media as being branded new Talibans, just because few people believe and execute barberic justice and justify that as a decision of whole community.
In my opinion, we certainly need to be liberal on the treatment of the voilators of the gotra system at the first place. Exclusion from the society, or honour killing is no solution. Additionally, we come across such voilation once in a while, so rather than being reactive, we can focus on finding a proactive solution to the problem.
Another issue that I was expecting, but did not saw raising was the Village Gotra being applied to people from other gotras residing in the same village. This in my opinion needed more focus on the discussion rather than the same gotra marriages, because it can not be justified scientifically, and it is the core of the problems that we see in newspapers being forced by Khap Panchayats to declare a husband and wife as brother and sister. I treat this as more of a social problem, where we as Jats treat male child as superior to female child (our sex ratio also proves that). So, 'if a girl from my surname gets married to our village then we would become inferior' mentality (fake or false sense of honour thing) is the root cause for this and we need to contemplating such scenarios. Not only these issues need to be handled with more sensitivity, but our society by being ignorant or insensitive to such issues is waiting for a sort of social disaster due to the poor sex ratio (in rural areas). I would welcome the Khap Panchayats, if they come up with a creative solution (other than exclusion/ murder/ relationship breakage, of course) for this problem.
Here is my summary. (I am trying to ignore the discussions when people went overboard/ personal). Please correct me if somebody is interpretted incorrectly.
Praveen started the discussion with "Need of preservance of Jat Gotra system", rather than "jat movemment very urgent to save our heritage".
We have several people associating the people convicted in Karnal honour killing case as saviours of the system, whose act also drew criticism from 'moderate' Jats. (I prefer progressive though, but some have also neo-liberal morons, so I am chosing a non debatable word.) This also lead to the role of Khap Panchayats in such cases, which in my opinion is there, but obviously difficult to prove legally. However, even the supporters of Khap Panchayats are silent on their accountabilities and responsibilities, which I feel should be a lot more than what they seem to be doing (read: getting together to resolve gotra issues).
The following is my analysis on the root cause for the evolution of gotra system of marriage (it is there in a lot of communities, so I am assuming it has to do with scientific reason rather than just a ritual):
1. In order to avoid marriages till second cousins, we drafted a rule to avoid upto 2 lineages from both the boy and the girl's end. This meant both the boy and girl won't marry till they exclude their own gotra, mother's gotra, and grandmother's (both paternal and metarnal) gotra.
2. Given the context of the times the rules were drafted, it seemed to be a good starting point to avoid.
3. However, over the times things have gone complex as well as simpler. The complex part is that the gotra population distribution has changed and made things difficult to manage. People have started attaching honour with customs. Simplicity part is that education has improved a lot in our community over times.
Some of the freinds have expressed sharp reactions to the thoughts on the suggestions on Gotra system, treatment of the voilators, or authority of Khap panchayat, but that is boud to happen if you get the reactions to such incidents from media as being branded new Talibans, just because few people believe and execute barberic justice and justify that as a decision of whole community.
In my opinion, we certainly need to be liberal on the treatment of the voilators of the gotra system at the first place. Exclusion from the society, or honour killing is no solution. Additionally, we come across such voilation once in a while, so rather than being reactive, we can focus on finding a proactive solution to the problem.
Another issue that I was expecting, but did not saw raising was the Village Gotra being applied to people from other gotras residing in the same village. This in my opinion needed more focus on the discussion rather than the same gotra marriages, because it can not be justified scientifically, and it is the core of the problems that we see in newspapers being forced by Khap Panchayats to declare a husband and wife as brother and sister. I treat this as more of a social problem, where we as Jats treat male child as superior to female child (our sex ratio also proves that). So, 'if a girl from my surname gets married to our village then we would become inferior' mentality (fake or false sense of honour thing) is the root cause for this and we need to contemplating such scenarios. Not only these issues need to be handled with more sensitivity, but our society by being ignorant or insensitive to such issues is waiting for a sort of social disaster due to the poor sex ratio (in rural areas). I would welcome the Khap Panchayats, if they come up with a creative solution (other than exclusion/ murder/ relationship breakage, of course) for this problem.
It is, however, difficult for an exoteric like me to grasp the arcane philosophical utterances of the protagonists of marriages outside 5 or 7 Gotras, but the autocratic style and intimidating behaviour of some dominating khaps and their advocates certainly reminds me of my visit to the Auschwitz museum (Poland), the gas chambers and other apparatus of Hitlerite persecution there. Let the history not repeat itself.
Very immature and unnecessary comparision !
samarkadian
Active member
Tradition of honour killing? Okay lets take historical turn and try to know the details of the TRADITION of honour killing prior to modern era. Mind citing examples, Vijay.
Secondaly, are you suggessting that incests shall be poster heroes for next generations?
Yes, I firmly believe in amendment and sooner or later it will be happening for these ''few districts''. Why wouldn't it be changed in first place? Okay lets see this newscutting about ''few districts'':-
हिंदू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन की मांग के लिए अब देश व प्रदेश की खाप व संगठन खुलकर सामने आने लगे हैं। अखिल भारतीय जाट महासभा के युवा प्रदेशाध्यक्ष इंद्र सिंह पाई ने गांवों के दौरे शुरू कर दिए। हरियाणा धनखड़ सभा के अध्यक्ष डा. ओमप्रकाश प्रदेश के सभी जिलों में जाकर सभी खापों को एकजुट करने में लगे हैं। ढुल खाप के पूर्व प्रधान स्वर्गीय ज्यूणाराम ढुल के पौत्र राजेंद्र ढुल ने लिखित प्रेस विज्ञप्ति जारी कर समाज को एकजुट होने का आह्वान किया है। इसी क्रम में ही 13 अप्रैल को कुरुक्षेत्र में होने वाले खाप महासम्मेलन में देश व प्रदेश की मुख्य पंचायतों के प्रतिनिधि भाग लेंगे। महासम्मेलन में खापों के इतिहास व अतीत के बारे में गंभीर मंथन किया जाएगा। हरियाणा धनखड़ खाप के अध्यक्ष डा. ओमप्रकाश धनखड़ ने बताया कि इस महासम्मेलन में देश की सबसे बड़ी उ9ारप्रदेश की मेरठ तथा दिल्ली की खाप पंचायतें के अलावा पूरे देश के खाप प्रतिनिधि जुटेंगे। महासम्मेलन में खापों के अस्तित्व को ऊपर करने, समाज में आए बिखराव को दूर करने तथा गोत्र विवादों के समाधान पर गंभीर मंथन किया जाएगा। धनखड़ ने कहा कि किसी भी खाप पंचायत ने किसी को कत्ल करने का आदेश नहीं दिया है। पंचायतों के बारे में 18 दिसंबर 1992 को यू एन रेजूलेशन ब्रिटेन में पास हुआ। इसमें कहा गया है कि प्रत्येक देश का दायित्व होगा कि वह अपने देश के कबीले, जाति व समुदाय की मूल परंपराओं व पहचान को सुरक्षित रखे। महासम्मेलन में जुटेंगीं ये खापें धनखड़ खाप, दलाल खाप, दहिया खाप, कादियान खाप, अहलावत खाप, राठी खाप, बिरोड़ का बाहरा खाप, पावडिया खाप, जाटू खाप 84, सुभाना 17 खाप, दाड़न खाप, बनपाना खाप, चाहर खाप, कूडन खाप 17, ढुल खाप, श्योरान खाप, जाखड़ खाप सहित पूरे देश की खापों को निमंत्रण दिया है। सम्मेलन के बारे में शुरू किया प्रचार अभियान : धनखड़ खाप के प्रधान डा. ओमप्रकाश धनखड़ ने महासम्मेलन को सफल बनाने के लिए पूरे प्रदेश के दौरे शुरू कर दिए हैं। वे देश की सभी खापों के मुखियाओं के संपर्क साधकर महासम्मेलन में आने का निमंत्रण दे रहे हैं। महासम्मेलन के अहम फैसले सर्वमान्य होंगे। वहीं विभिन्न खापों द्वारा 13 अप्रैल को कुरुक्षेत्र में बुलाई गई महापंचायत के लिए अखिल भारतीय जाट महासभा के युवा प्रदेशाध्यक्ष इंद्र सिंह पाई ने मंगलवार को कई गांवों का दौरा कर हिंदू समाज के लोगों से इस महा पंचायत में अधिक से अधिक संख्या में भाग लेने की मांग की है। उन्होंने बताया कि उनकी लड़ाई कोर्ट से नहीं है और न ही कोर्ट के आदेशों का उल्लंघन करते। उन्होंने कहा कि उनका तो मुख्य मुद्दा यह है कि सरकार हिंदू समाज कानून में संशोधन करें।
Did you read the word DESH?
Take a guess. Rajiv Ghandhi Assasination, Beant Singh Assasination,Sikh riots and many cases where judiciary took decades. How come this so fast and that with death sentence? I don't read much with that though.
Do you support the sexual intercourse of a brother and a sister?
Nyah, rather intra-jat marriages where deluded incests will be illegal.
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche has been my favourite for his ideals of Übermensch.
Ah! but Thanks, that watered my mountain size ego very well.
Are you really aware of history?
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jitendershooda
New member
There are several points raised during discussions regarding Honour killings threads now and earlier.
I thought of asking question by question to avoid confusion and intermixing.
Allmost all Jats are supporting to leave same gotra for marriage. But still ...
A valid point (or may be not
) raised earlier by Kapil Dalal and now by Jitender Gahlawat:
Suppose
Kuldeep Punia is a resident of village Makrolli, Rohtak, Haryana
They are also residing in this region for more than 700 years or may be more.
Sandhya Punia is a resident of X village near Nasik.
More than 300 years their ancestors are residing in that region.
We may say that both have same ancestoral line from somewhere in Barmer region of Rajasthan around 1000 years back.
Now, There is a girl Kavita Narwal from village Rithal, Rohtak, Haryana.
According to our societal allowance, Kuldeep Punia can marry Kavita Narwal which is residing just less than 15 kms away but not Sandhya Punia.
Is it logical?
Is it Scientific?
Now, suppose we demand disapproval of same gotra marriages by law, then will we consider geographies also?
In the above mentioned example it is very likely that somewhere 5-6 generations back both Kavita and Kuldeep's ancestors have crossed each other in lineage (Ho sake se unki pad-sad dadi ek doosre ki bhan hon) but this possibility is not at all there for Sandhya and Kuldeep.
How genes works?
1) Punia + Narwal = (Their Son) = 23 Punia + 23 Narwal
2) Punia(23Punia23Narwal) + Gahlawat(23Gahlawat+23Bazard) = (their son) = 23/2Punia23/2Narwal + 23/2Gahlawat23/2Bazard
Anil Dalal(The Mathemetician) will be a better person to put clear statistics as to when this same gotra thing is caught with his own genes.
I thought of asking question by question to avoid confusion and intermixing.
Allmost all Jats are supporting to leave same gotra for marriage. But still ...
A valid point (or may be not
) raised earlier by Kapil Dalal and now by Jitender Gahlawat:Suppose
Kuldeep Punia is a resident of village Makrolli, Rohtak, Haryana
They are also residing in this region for more than 700 years or may be more.
Sandhya Punia is a resident of X village near Nasik.
More than 300 years their ancestors are residing in that region.
We may say that both have same ancestoral line from somewhere in Barmer region of Rajasthan around 1000 years back.
Now, There is a girl Kavita Narwal from village Rithal, Rohtak, Haryana.
According to our societal allowance, Kuldeep Punia can marry Kavita Narwal which is residing just less than 15 kms away but not Sandhya Punia.
Is it logical?
Is it Scientific?
Now, suppose we demand disapproval of same gotra marriages by law, then will we consider geographies also?
In the above mentioned example it is very likely that somewhere 5-6 generations back both Kavita and Kuldeep's ancestors have crossed each other in lineage (Ho sake se unki pad-sad dadi ek doosre ki bhan hon
) but this possibility is not at all there for Sandhya and Kuldeep.How genes works?
1) Punia + Narwal = (Their Son) = 23 Punia + 23 Narwal
2) Punia(23Punia23Narwal) + Gahlawat(23Gahlawat+23Bazard) = (their son) = 23/2Punia23/2Narwal + 23/2Gahlawat23/2Bazard
Anil Dalal(The Mathemetician) will be a better person to put clear statistics as to when this same gotra thing is caught with his own genes.
rakeshsehrawat
New member
Suppose a man X is married to women Y and they gave birth to a son Z which was sent 12000km from day of birth. Daughter is here in Delhi. Can they marry? or do their childern?
Geography se khoon ke riste badalte hain aaj pehli baar suna.
Geography se khoon ke riste badalte hain aaj pehli baar suna.
jitendershooda
New member
Why the Hindu Marriage Act added a special exemption for people of south to allow them to marry their daughters to their Mama's? Was that fair genetically? If that is allowed then why not this much fairer practice?
On one hand HMA is respecting customary law of south and on the other hand they are not respecting customary law of this region, any reason for the same?
Query -
Though I know that in Rajasthan/haryana border Jats can marry in their own village But do Jats of any region marry within same gotra too? Please put some light as you have mentioned Few Districts.
rakeshsehrawat
New member
Siraf Vote Bank Ka chakkar hai ji Mhara CM kime nahi kehta jato ke liye usko daak bantne se fursat nahi varna samaj ke apne niyam hain aur kanoon unhi ke hisab se banta hai. Sabse badi galti to Bade wale Hooda sahab ne ki unhe to sanvidhan rachiyata ki upadhi se navaja gaya hai unko bhi apne samaj ka kanoon pasand nahi tha sayad.
samarkadian
Active member
Late Ch. Ranbeer Hooda was merely a clerk/proof-reader in that committee. He had nothing to do with the content. Present CM and an army of fawning rats has made him giant beyond usefullness.
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Marriage within same Gotra is never allowed and is uniform among Jats all across the India. I am not favoring the marriage within the same gotra but my concern is 'Bhaichara among Villeges". Considering villeges as brothers ? Generally people don't marry in their Mama's villege that's understandable. But declaring 10-15 villeges as brothers and not allowing the marriage relatioanship among them seems ridiculous. This Bhaichara thing is never practiced outside the above said FEW DISTRICTS.
Just avoid three Gotra's ( as per own family customs but not accoring to KHAP or Bhaichara norms ) and feel free to marry anywhere in this world.
You still need examples ? Even after witnessing so many Honor killing in the last decade. If these young couples who are being murdered brutally can't stir your mind then i wonder how could a History Document or Incident affect your iron will ?
Nope, instead Khaps are promoting these murderes as the bravest warriors to maintain the decorum among Jat community. Check again, these Khaps never condemned such acts but also supporting them. Infact provoking them to kill people to SAVE the community.
This is hardly a news for me. They do it after each and every such incidents.
Yes, you are right ? Judgement is quite quick as compared to the above said cases.
How dare you can compare Rajiv Gandhi case with this simple Kidnapping and murder case. In Rajiv Gandhi's case the ground for the case starts from Sri Lanka and the cords leads to so many countries and their rules. Do you really know how difficult is even asking a few question to a Sri Lankan or Pakistani Citizen ? if you aware of this then i didn't expected such a silly question, at least, from a person like you ?
Beant Singh's case need intense interrogation from India, Pakistan to USA and Canada.
What are the difficulties in this murder case as compared to these above said International cases.
Most rubbish comparasions i came across on this thread .... so far
No, i never supported the incest and strongly oppose it. But i don't like to kill people if they are not agree with my point of views.
What these Khaps are doing is not incest ? They are forcing a married couple to behave as Brother Sister. Is it not incest that a couple who are having sexual relationships are forced to behave as brother sister ?
What about the kid ? Will the kid adress his father as Mama or his mother as Bua ? Any answer ?
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jitendershooda
New member
Had any other party leader like Ch. OmPrakash Chautala uttered something regarding the same?
http://vikas-gupta.in/2009/08/29/sh...nder-hooda-in-jnu-campus-a-first-hand-report/
Deepender Said-
“Sentiments and local customs of Khaap panchayat must be understood”
Addendum: AISA in its dinner pamphlet in JNU campus on 29 August 2009 has, among other things, criticised Hooda and NSUI saying “he is a patron of honour killings of young couples.”
I have attended 2 gatherings regarding the Honour Killing and role of panchayat. One was organised by our own JL memebers and different Khap leaders, media and intellectuals of the community to bridge the gap. Second by one Dalal in chotu ram DharamShala rohtak (Fake one).
So, what I feel that there are very less people who are really into this thing for some genuine solution. Rest are there to get recognised and then later on emerge as some political leader. They love to be in news and newspapers. They unite people and get this thing discussed till length but without taking any resolution and views from others, they keep on saying their own orthodox views in next gatherings.
Justice Tewatia strongly opposed other Bhaichara things, he said we are making the case complex and we will end up with nothing this way. The same is the reason that genuine guys are not there in news now for this issue. He said, we should only go for the exclusion of Same Gotra marriage in HMA. This is pretty scientific and solid customary. But the guys who are in news these days are keeping all other undigestable things too and that is not to get this resolved, but only to be in news.
Rightly said Jitender.
That's the essence of these gatherings. One another aspect in this issue is that some people also tries to settle their personal grudges in this whole practice.
jitendershooda
New member
Khaps
Each and everything have its significance in one era and may not have the same in other one. What may be very much necessary and useful in one time may prove to be hinderance in other.
Like 'Palle Lana' was a good custom in our area long back. But if done in present times it proves to be home breaker.
Same is the case with Khaps. A person from same family become Khap leader one after the other. Who will make sure that he is as good as his ancestors? Is this approach right? Is this significant in present times too?
e.g. Maliks have very strong Khap and their leader Ghasi (if I am not wrong). But now-a-days they have two parallel Khap leaders. This is because the present decendant of Ghasi is said to be partial.
Moreover if you go into reality and meet the khap leaders, you will yourself realise that this person cant be the supreme judge or representative of whole gotra. I say this for 1-2 khap leaders to whom I personally met in recent times (this changed my view about these khaps).
E.g. Tikait said,"Humare Samaj mein keval randiyo ko hi sathi chunane ka adhikar hai"
Do you accept this thing? Do you accept him as your representative?
________________
Panchayats (Am Not talking about govt elected ones ....)-
During 10 or so panchayats attended by me for criminal cases, HMA cases, family issues. I say there are many a good people in society who are much more wiser than these khap leaders. Some even kept strong leaders mum during those proceedings.
Also panchayat system is working parallel to judiciary in our society and reducing great workload of judiciary.
Panchayat have its own positives and sometimes negatives too.
Near and dear ones, villagers, risterdars are part of these and one guy is elected on the spot as the panchayat head for that day. Panel of 5 or more people from both sides is made and after two or more sittings some intermediate solution is obtained.
Each and everything have its significance in one era and may not have the same in other one. What may be very much necessary and useful in one time may prove to be hinderance in other.
Like 'Palle Lana' was a good custom in our area long back. But if done in present times it proves to be home breaker.
Same is the case with Khaps. A person from same family become Khap leader one after the other. Who will make sure that he is as good as his ancestors? Is this approach right? Is this significant in present times too?
e.g. Maliks have very strong Khap and their leader Ghasi (if I am not wrong). But now-a-days they have two parallel Khap leaders. This is because the present decendant of Ghasi is said to be partial.
Moreover if you go into reality and meet the khap leaders, you will yourself realise that this person cant be the supreme judge or representative of whole gotra. I say this for 1-2 khap leaders to whom I personally met in recent times (this changed my view about these khaps).
E.g. Tikait said,"Humare Samaj mein keval randiyo ko hi sathi chunane ka adhikar hai"
Do you accept this thing? Do you accept him as your representative?
________________
Panchayats (Am Not talking about govt elected ones ....)-
During 10 or so panchayats attended by me for criminal cases, HMA cases, family issues. I say there are many a good people in society who are much more wiser than these khap leaders. Some even kept strong leaders mum during those proceedings.
Also panchayat system is working parallel to judiciary in our society and reducing great workload of judiciary.
Panchayat have its own positives and sometimes negatives too.
Near and dear ones, villagers, risterdars are part of these and one guy is elected on the spot as the panchayat head for that day. Panel of 5 or more people from both sides is made and after two or more sittings some intermediate solution is obtained.
samarkadian
Active member
Vijay, you said Tradition. Tradition isn't established in one decade. In how many cases Khap Panchyat ordered killing and since when?
Usually , it is victim's family who do this out of honour call. Either girl or boy's family.
Threshold has reached.
May be rubbish thaty I said I dnt read much in that conspiracy point. But that Bahamani Judge is seeking security now.
All are not like you.
Yes good point. This should have been by pondered by that incest couple before ushering in to this forbidden coitus. It is that couple's valid moral dilema. I doubt that such kids would even like this act when they would grow up.