Oh! Hi Vipin. You were watching man!!!!!!!
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jat movemment very urgent to save our heritage
- Thread starter mumindia
- Start date
Oh! Hi Vipin. You were watching man!!!!!!!
Always Big Bro !! Take it easy !
samarkadian
Active member
One Jat reporter Mandakini Gehlot has written this piece for Indian express about Khaps.
==
In the early forties, when a farmer in the village of Dhabodha in Haryana decided to educate his daughters, he drew the ire of the village panchayat. At a time when social norms dictated that only boys went to school, Lakshman Singh Dalal’s decision to send his daughters to a boarding school created a scandal. A hastily called khap panchayat condemned his action and passed an order that required Dalal to pay a small fortune as fine and face social boycott for two years. His house was stoned, abuses hurled his way, and his daughters were declared ‘unmarriageable’.
Nearly 60 years after my great grandfather Lakshman Singh Dalal was reviled and ostracised merely because he desired a good education for his daughters, nobody so much as batted an eyelid when I was sent to a boarding school, across the country, in Pune. But going back to Dhabodha now, it’s clear that while sending girls to schools may no longer evoke such a bigoted response, in other spheres, especially marriages, the hold of khap panchayats, an informal umbrella grouping of people from several village panchayats, is still strong.
Karora village in Kaithal district is about 300 km from the national capital but in many ways, it could be millions of miles away. Narrow, winding lanes lead to Chandrapati Benewal’s house. Unlike other houses in the village which are flanked by open porches, Chandrapati’s house has high walls, an imposing black gate, and the door is answered by a police officer who is stationed here 24x7 to protect her.
The 55-year-old recently shot to national headlines when a court in Karnal sentenced five people to death for their involvement in the double murder of her son Manoj and daughter-in-law Babli. Having eloped and married, Manoj and Babli had broken the most sacrosanct of all Jat customs by marrying within the same gotra. In June 2007, they were murdered by members of Babli’s family.
Though the exact role of the khap panchayat in Manoj and Babli’s death remains ambiguous, there is no ambiguity about the fact that they disapproved of such a marriage. “The khap did not say that they should be killed. It was a decision taken by Babli’s parents who were disgraced by the couple’s despicable act. She married her own brother. What else could her family do? Such parents should just kill their children quietly,” says
Dr Om Prakash Dhankhar, the pradhan of the Dhankhar khap who later, by his own admission, tried to get Chandrapati to withdraw her case from court. “She should have withdrawn that case. Her son had done something wrong and was punished (for it),” he says.
Dhankhar, who is equally at ease speaking in English as he is in the local Haryanavi dialect, believes such young couples are out to destroy the “bhaichaara” that Jats have so painstakingly cultivated over centuries. “This is a sickness, to marry in the same gotra. There is scientific proof to back this. Look at the English Royal family. Their lineage is awash with sick people, because of inbreeding. I would like to point out that khaps do not direct anyone to kill. It is the parents, who cannot tolerate the shame that will cling to their family for the next few generations, who insist on taking such steps,” he says.
A JAT social structure that dates back to 600 AD, khaps are community groups centred around various gotras (clans). According to Khazaan Singh, Dean of Social Sciences at the Maharishi Dayanand University, Rohtak, khaps were socially relevant bodies in the days before a judicial apparatus was set up in India. “They had immense social legitimacy and were historically significant groups. Rulers relied on them and they were renowned for amicably settling disputes.”
In rural Haryana, he is not an aberration. Most villagers back the khap when it takes decisions such as banning families that dare to break the sacred gotra tradition. “The tradition is intrinsic to Jat identity. People accept it as right, and no amount of action by the administration is going to change that any time soon,” explains Khazaan Singh.
Singh, whose Ph.D thesis was an in-depth study of the functioning of one of the largest khap panchayats, Meham Chaubisi, believes that over the last decade, khaps have emerged as oppressive groups who are struggling to come to terms with a society where they are no longer relevant. “If you look at the individuals who occupy positions of power in khap panchayats today, these are generally politically ambitious men who have failed to branch out into the acceptable democratic avenues of power. They shamelessly exploit what used to be an old and respected system,” he says
Khap panchayats now see themselves as keepers of Jat morality and central to their continued existence is the strict, and often brutal, enforcement of the long-held Jat tradition that frowns upon marriage within the same gotra.
“A Jat girl cannot marry a boy from the same gotra, no matter which village he lives in. Nor can she marry a boy from her mother’s and her grandmother’s gotra. She cannot marry into a village where her gotra forms the majority, even if the boy she is marrying is from a different gotra. Marrying within the same gotra is tantamount to incest and goes against the concept of bhaichaara—a centuries-old belief of brotherly ties amongst those from the same gotra,” explains D.S. Tewatia, a retired Chief Justice of the Punjab and Haryana High Court, who often steps in as a legal consultant to the sarv khap—the umbrella panchayat under which nearly 300 khaps fall.
Ved Pal sought, and was granted, police protection from the Punjab and Haryana High Court. On July 23, 2009, accompanied by a team of policemen, including an SHO, Ved Pal showed up in Singhwala to reclaim his wife. “When he reached the house, there was a mob that included Sonia’s family, relatives and members of the panchayat. They beat my son to death, even as the police stood watching,” says Ved Pal’s mother Misha.
A case was registered and the trial is underway, but with Misha and her husband completely unaware of the complex legalities that surround such cases, the accused are likely to be acquitted. “We don’t understand what we are supposed to do in court. We have never made an appearance,” says Misha.
Instances of such medieval ‘justice’ have persisted over the years. At Balla, a village in Karnal where we stop to ask for directions to Dariya Arfulka’s house, the villagers are hostile. “Why don’t you just leave us alone? What happened to them was right. They were a disgrace to the village,” says an angry villager.
In May 2008, Dariya’s son Jasbir and his daughter-in-law Sonia were run over by a tractor by Sonia’s father Om Prakash. Their “sin” was that they belonged to the same gotra. Sonia was six months pregnant when she was killed. Om Prakash, who was arrested for the murder, has since been freed from jail.
Dariya’s family says they were pressured by the Kaliraman khap to withdraw their case or face social boycott for several generations to come. A member of the Kaliraman khap, who did not want to be identified, explains with a chilling sense of righteousness, “What Om Prakash did was right. These parents need to quietly kill their children in order to salvage the family name. How can you call them murderers?”
BUT the khap panchayat’s decisions have not always gone unchallenged. As young Jat boys and girls leave their villages and move to cities, such rigidly held beliefs take a backseat. Take the case of Ved Pal Mor, a 26-year-old ayurvedic doctor, who had set up shop in Singhwala, a village that adjoined his own smaller village Matour. There, he met and fell in love with 22-year-old Sonia. They eloped in March 2009 and married. When the khap, under which Sonia’s village Singhwala falls, found out about the marriage, they declared it void on the grounds that since the couple belonged to adjoining villages, they were technically brother and sister. Sonia was tracked and taken back to Singhwala.
IN July 2009, in a written response to a question about honour killings in Haryana brought on by a khap diktat, Home Minister P. Chidambaram said, “We should hang our heads in shame.”
Members of the Dalal khap in Mandothi village question the minister’s legitimacy to make such observations. “What does he know? He is a South Indian; they marry their sisters’ daughters. Just because they believe it is right, because their custom dictates it, they cannot force us to do the same,” says Ram Chander, a powerful Dalal khap leader.
Recently, the Dhankhar khap—with legal assistance from D.S. Tewatia—drew up a proposal and circulated it to various levels of the government in Haryana, including to Chief Minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda. The proposal states that Section D, Clause 3 of the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 should be amended to reflect Jat sensibilities. “Clause 3 lists out prohibitive degrees of marriage and it clearly states that such marriages are prohibited except in the cases where local customs state otherwise. We want an amendment in the Act that will declare marriages within the father’s and the mother’s gotras wrong,” Dhankhar says.
For complete reading :-
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wherethekhaprules/599573/0
Notice one comment by a jat lady there.
==
In the early forties, when a farmer in the village of Dhabodha in Haryana decided to educate his daughters, he drew the ire of the village panchayat. At a time when social norms dictated that only boys went to school, Lakshman Singh Dalal’s decision to send his daughters to a boarding school created a scandal. A hastily called khap panchayat condemned his action and passed an order that required Dalal to pay a small fortune as fine and face social boycott for two years. His house was stoned, abuses hurled his way, and his daughters were declared ‘unmarriageable’.
Nearly 60 years after my great grandfather Lakshman Singh Dalal was reviled and ostracised merely because he desired a good education for his daughters, nobody so much as batted an eyelid when I was sent to a boarding school, across the country, in Pune. But going back to Dhabodha now, it’s clear that while sending girls to schools may no longer evoke such a bigoted response, in other spheres, especially marriages, the hold of khap panchayats, an informal umbrella grouping of people from several village panchayats, is still strong.
Karora village in Kaithal district is about 300 km from the national capital but in many ways, it could be millions of miles away. Narrow, winding lanes lead to Chandrapati Benewal’s house. Unlike other houses in the village which are flanked by open porches, Chandrapati’s house has high walls, an imposing black gate, and the door is answered by a police officer who is stationed here 24x7 to protect her.
The 55-year-old recently shot to national headlines when a court in Karnal sentenced five people to death for their involvement in the double murder of her son Manoj and daughter-in-law Babli. Having eloped and married, Manoj and Babli had broken the most sacrosanct of all Jat customs by marrying within the same gotra. In June 2007, they were murdered by members of Babli’s family.
Though the exact role of the khap panchayat in Manoj and Babli’s death remains ambiguous, there is no ambiguity about the fact that they disapproved of such a marriage. “The khap did not say that they should be killed. It was a decision taken by Babli’s parents who were disgraced by the couple’s despicable act. She married her own brother. What else could her family do? Such parents should just kill their children quietly,” says
Dr Om Prakash Dhankhar, the pradhan of the Dhankhar khap who later, by his own admission, tried to get Chandrapati to withdraw her case from court. “She should have withdrawn that case. Her son had done something wrong and was punished (for it),” he says.
Dhankhar, who is equally at ease speaking in English as he is in the local Haryanavi dialect, believes such young couples are out to destroy the “bhaichaara” that Jats have so painstakingly cultivated over centuries. “This is a sickness, to marry in the same gotra. There is scientific proof to back this. Look at the English Royal family. Their lineage is awash with sick people, because of inbreeding. I would like to point out that khaps do not direct anyone to kill. It is the parents, who cannot tolerate the shame that will cling to their family for the next few generations, who insist on taking such steps,” he says.
A JAT social structure that dates back to 600 AD, khaps are community groups centred around various gotras (clans). According to Khazaan Singh, Dean of Social Sciences at the Maharishi Dayanand University, Rohtak, khaps were socially relevant bodies in the days before a judicial apparatus was set up in India. “They had immense social legitimacy and were historically significant groups. Rulers relied on them and they were renowned for amicably settling disputes.”
In rural Haryana, he is not an aberration. Most villagers back the khap when it takes decisions such as banning families that dare to break the sacred gotra tradition. “The tradition is intrinsic to Jat identity. People accept it as right, and no amount of action by the administration is going to change that any time soon,” explains Khazaan Singh.
Singh, whose Ph.D thesis was an in-depth study of the functioning of one of the largest khap panchayats, Meham Chaubisi, believes that over the last decade, khaps have emerged as oppressive groups who are struggling to come to terms with a society where they are no longer relevant. “If you look at the individuals who occupy positions of power in khap panchayats today, these are generally politically ambitious men who have failed to branch out into the acceptable democratic avenues of power. They shamelessly exploit what used to be an old and respected system,” he says
Khap panchayats now see themselves as keepers of Jat morality and central to their continued existence is the strict, and often brutal, enforcement of the long-held Jat tradition that frowns upon marriage within the same gotra.
“A Jat girl cannot marry a boy from the same gotra, no matter which village he lives in. Nor can she marry a boy from her mother’s and her grandmother’s gotra. She cannot marry into a village where her gotra forms the majority, even if the boy she is marrying is from a different gotra. Marrying within the same gotra is tantamount to incest and goes against the concept of bhaichaara—a centuries-old belief of brotherly ties amongst those from the same gotra,” explains D.S. Tewatia, a retired Chief Justice of the Punjab and Haryana High Court, who often steps in as a legal consultant to the sarv khap—the umbrella panchayat under which nearly 300 khaps fall.
Ved Pal sought, and was granted, police protection from the Punjab and Haryana High Court. On July 23, 2009, accompanied by a team of policemen, including an SHO, Ved Pal showed up in Singhwala to reclaim his wife. “When he reached the house, there was a mob that included Sonia’s family, relatives and members of the panchayat. They beat my son to death, even as the police stood watching,” says Ved Pal’s mother Misha.
A case was registered and the trial is underway, but with Misha and her husband completely unaware of the complex legalities that surround such cases, the accused are likely to be acquitted. “We don’t understand what we are supposed to do in court. We have never made an appearance,” says Misha.
Instances of such medieval ‘justice’ have persisted over the years. At Balla, a village in Karnal where we stop to ask for directions to Dariya Arfulka’s house, the villagers are hostile. “Why don’t you just leave us alone? What happened to them was right. They were a disgrace to the village,” says an angry villager.
In May 2008, Dariya’s son Jasbir and his daughter-in-law Sonia were run over by a tractor by Sonia’s father Om Prakash. Their “sin” was that they belonged to the same gotra. Sonia was six months pregnant when she was killed. Om Prakash, who was arrested for the murder, has since been freed from jail.
Dariya’s family says they were pressured by the Kaliraman khap to withdraw their case or face social boycott for several generations to come. A member of the Kaliraman khap, who did not want to be identified, explains with a chilling sense of righteousness, “What Om Prakash did was right. These parents need to quietly kill their children in order to salvage the family name. How can you call them murderers?”
BUT the khap panchayat’s decisions have not always gone unchallenged. As young Jat boys and girls leave their villages and move to cities, such rigidly held beliefs take a backseat. Take the case of Ved Pal Mor, a 26-year-old ayurvedic doctor, who had set up shop in Singhwala, a village that adjoined his own smaller village Matour. There, he met and fell in love with 22-year-old Sonia. They eloped in March 2009 and married. When the khap, under which Sonia’s village Singhwala falls, found out about the marriage, they declared it void on the grounds that since the couple belonged to adjoining villages, they were technically brother and sister. Sonia was tracked and taken back to Singhwala.
IN July 2009, in a written response to a question about honour killings in Haryana brought on by a khap diktat, Home Minister P. Chidambaram said, “We should hang our heads in shame.”
Members of the Dalal khap in Mandothi village question the minister’s legitimacy to make such observations. “What does he know? He is a South Indian; they marry their sisters’ daughters. Just because they believe it is right, because their custom dictates it, they cannot force us to do the same,” says Ram Chander, a powerful Dalal khap leader.
Recently, the Dhankhar khap—with legal assistance from D.S. Tewatia—drew up a proposal and circulated it to various levels of the government in Haryana, including to Chief Minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda. The proposal states that Section D, Clause 3 of the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 should be amended to reflect Jat sensibilities. “Clause 3 lists out prohibitive degrees of marriage and it clearly states that such marriages are prohibited except in the cases where local customs state otherwise. We want an amendment in the Act that will declare marriages within the father’s and the mother’s gotras wrong,” Dhankhar says.
For complete reading :-
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wherethekhaprules/599573/0
Notice one comment by a jat lady there.
Vijay, you said Tradition. Tradition isn't established in one decade. In how many cases Khap Panchyat ordered killing and since when?
How many times Khaps condemned such killings ? How many times Khaps Panchayat are/were summoned to punish such Killers. Infact, Khaps don't believe that they are/were killers but declare them as the 'Volunteers to keep the traditions intact' for the Community.
Now, 15-20 villeges are brothers but in next 50 years, when their families would be exapanded, there would be 45-50 villeges who are brothers in that area and one day all the villeges in a district would be Brothers and you will find it happening in almost every villege. You can't stop it. More the population more would be such cases. Either it is end of the traditions or maybe the start.
Usually , it is victim's family who do this out of honour call. Either girl or boy's family.
Who provokes, appreciates and helps them ?
Now , don't say that Khaps are against these killings. As per your OWN POST Khaps are supporting the Killers ( read your own newspaper cutting post )
Threshold has reached.
This threshold is stretchable beyond any known limits.
May be rubbish thaty I said I dnt read much in that conspiracy point. But that Bahamani Judge is seeking security now.
Is that what you are feeling proud of ? Threatening a Judge seems adventure for you ?
There is no dearth of Judges in India and a hell of enemployed youth waiting for the Jobs. Anybody can fill up the vacancy and can call the shots.
Yes good point. This should have been by pondered by that incest couple before ushering in to this forbidden coitus. It is that couple's valid moral dilema. I doubt that such kids would even like this act when they would grow up.
I don't think any body invented a Time machine yet to bring back the same time again. Whatever happenend, its happenend and you can't change it by any means.
This is ridiculous reverse engineering ( of forcing them to behave as brother sister ) and Khaps seems to become the Brand Ambassadors of promoting INCEST by declaring husband wife as brother sister. They can't do anything more disgusting than that.
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[/QUOTE]Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche has been my favourite for his ideals of Übermensch.
Ah! but Thanks, that watered my mountain size ego very well. originally by Samar Kadiyan.
Used to read about great people like Nietzsche (born in Rocken (Germany) on 15.10.1944 died on August 25, 1900 in Wiemmer Saxony, Germany) when I was unemployed and had sufficient time. No more relevant for me. Nor in the present context.Are you really aware of history? - Samar Kadiyan[/Q
History is now clicks away - thanks to internet.
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samarkadian
Active member
How many times Khaps condemned such killings ? How many times Khaps Panchayat are/were summoned to punish such Killers. Infact, Khaps don't believe that they are/were killers but declare them as the 'Volunteers to keep the traditions intact' for the Community.
I would be the one such volunteer if situation arises in my family irrespective of what other interpret out of it and would happily wait to be hanged.
Now, 15-20 villeges are brothers but in next 50 years, when their families would be exapanded, there would be 45-50 villeges who are brothers in that area and one day all the villeges in a district would be Brothers and you will find it happening in almost every villege. You can't stop it. More the population more would be such cases. Either it is end of the traditions or maybe the start.
Probably you don't understand this gotra-based surrounding bhaichara and over generalising the situation of bhaichara.
Who provokes, appreciates and helps them ?
Now , don't say that Khaps are against these killings. As per your OWN POST Khaps are supporting the Killers ( read your own newspaper cutting post )
Khap are against killing. Hardly they pass such orders. I have no problem with khap not condemening killers.
Is that what you are feeling proud of ? Threatening a Judge seems adventure for you ?
There is no dearth of Judges in India and a hell of enemployed youth waiting for the Jobs. Anybody can fill up the vacancy and can call the shots.
May be.
I don't think any body invented a Time machine yet to bring back the same time again. Whatever happenend, its happenend and you can't change it by any means.
This is ridiculous reverse engineering ( of forcing them to behave as brother sister ) and Khaps seems to become the Brand Ambassadors of promoting INCEST by declaring husband wife as brother sister. They can't do anything more disgusting than that.
They were brother n sister turned faulty husband wife opted to live like that and doomed to be outsed along with their kids. I have no commiseration for such defaulters.
Dear All,
Few points I must stress. One: Killing of runaway couples who happen to marry in the same ‘Gotra’ is not acceptable. Two: There is something called ‘Tradition’ based on faiths and practices of a community and it is not necessary that every thing that JATS believe in should be mentioned in the constitution or law. Three: Any community that does not change with time is doomed.
Let me comment on these issues now. I am totally against marriages within a ‘Gotra’. There is no way I can agree to a marriage between a girl and a boy who are Maliks, whether living in the same village, town, country or the world. Why? There is no answer to this why because this is our faith and practice. Communities across the globe have different beliefs and no one has the right to question those. In similar manner, we JATS can’t allow anyone to question our traditions. I am also certain that with time our community shall evolve and become more tolerable towards young boys and girls who make a mistake of marrying in the same ‘Gotra’.
Then there is this question of whether an amendment is needed in the Hindu marriage Act (HMA) or not. I don’t think JATS read the HMA before deciding whom to marry. If the ‘powers to be’ make an appropriate amendment, good, otherwise it doesn’t matter. Everything that happens or doesn’t happen need not have the sanctions of the written law. There is an unwritten law as well.
The ‘Khaps’ can again become ‘relevant’ and ‘respected’ provided they first address social issues; education, dowry, wife beating, alcoholism, old parents, equal rights to girl child, stopping female feticide and many more. Presently, ‘Khaps’ only draw negative publicity and in view of the fact that most other communities are against us (because of our land holdings), the power of the media is always used against the ‘Khaps’. The comment that ‘Khaps’ only exist in few districts around Delhi is incorrect. ‘Khap’ is nothing but a congregation of elders. They even exist in Afghanistan and go by the name of ‘Loya Jigra’.
A word of caution for those who call us ‘Talibani’. If this country has to remain one, it would be prudent on the part of the Indian Establishment to let JATS (Hindu, Sikh & Muslim) be and not push them around in the name of this and that. An open forum like this is not the place to discuss what we can or can’t do.
My advice to all: education, education and more education…
Regards,
Few points I must stress. One: Killing of runaway couples who happen to marry in the same ‘Gotra’ is not acceptable. Two: There is something called ‘Tradition’ based on faiths and practices of a community and it is not necessary that every thing that JATS believe in should be mentioned in the constitution or law. Three: Any community that does not change with time is doomed.
Let me comment on these issues now. I am totally against marriages within a ‘Gotra’. There is no way I can agree to a marriage between a girl and a boy who are Maliks, whether living in the same village, town, country or the world. Why? There is no answer to this why because this is our faith and practice. Communities across the globe have different beliefs and no one has the right to question those. In similar manner, we JATS can’t allow anyone to question our traditions. I am also certain that with time our community shall evolve and become more tolerable towards young boys and girls who make a mistake of marrying in the same ‘Gotra’.
Then there is this question of whether an amendment is needed in the Hindu marriage Act (HMA) or not. I don’t think JATS read the HMA before deciding whom to marry. If the ‘powers to be’ make an appropriate amendment, good, otherwise it doesn’t matter. Everything that happens or doesn’t happen need not have the sanctions of the written law. There is an unwritten law as well.
The ‘Khaps’ can again become ‘relevant’ and ‘respected’ provided they first address social issues; education, dowry, wife beating, alcoholism, old parents, equal rights to girl child, stopping female feticide and many more. Presently, ‘Khaps’ only draw negative publicity and in view of the fact that most other communities are against us (because of our land holdings), the power of the media is always used against the ‘Khaps’. The comment that ‘Khaps’ only exist in few districts around Delhi is incorrect. ‘Khap’ is nothing but a congregation of elders. They even exist in Afghanistan and go by the name of ‘Loya Jigra’.
A word of caution for those who call us ‘Talibani’. If this country has to remain one, it would be prudent on the part of the Indian Establishment to let JATS (Hindu, Sikh & Muslim) be and not push them around in the name of this and that. An open forum like this is not the place to discuss what we can or can’t do.
My advice to all: education, education and more education…
Regards,
rakeshsehrawat
New member
It was February 1835, a time when the British were striving to take control of the whole of India. Lord Macaulay, a historian and a politician, made a historical speech in the British Parliament, commonly referred to as The Minutes, which struck a blow at the centuries old system of Indian education. His words were to this effect: " I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them,a truly dominated nation."
Gore Angrej chale gaye kale aa gaye aur aaj bhi hamari naso mein wo ghulami daud rahi hai aaj jab bade bade desh tabahi ke kagar par khade hain kyonki unka culture barbad ho chuka hai to bhi ham unke pad chinho par chal rahe hain?
http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/vedic-culture/188516-how-destroy-culture.html
Gore Angrej chale gaye kale aa gaye aur aaj bhi hamari naso mein wo ghulami daud rahi hai aaj jab bade bade desh tabahi ke kagar par khade hain kyonki unka culture barbad ho chuka hai to bhi ham unke pad chinho par chal rahe hain?
http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/vedic-culture/188516-how-destroy-culture.html
rakeshsehrawat
New member
Very true Start from culture first. Our childern should be taught aur culture, Moral values, our Society and it's rules.Dear All,
My advice to all: education, education and more education…
Regards,
पंडित और नाविक
एक बार की बात है कि एक पंडित नदी के किनारे खड़ा नाव का इंतजार कर रहा था,
ताकि वह नदी के उस पार जा सके. कुछ समय बाद एक नाविक अपनी नाव के साथ वहाँ आया और पंडित को उसने नाव में बैठा लिया.
नाव धीरे-धीरे चल रही थी और इसी बीच पंडित और नाविक के बीच निम्न बात हुई:
पंडित ' क्या तुमने गीता पढ़ी है?
नाविक ' नहीं, महाराज.
पंडित ' अरे, तुमने अपने जीवन गीता नही पढ़ी क्या तुमने महाभारत पढ़ी है?
नाविक ' नहीं, महाराज.
पंडित ' फिर तो तुमने अपने जीवन में कुछ भी हासिल नहीं किया.
थोड़ी देर बाद, नाविक ने पुछा ' महाराज, क्या तुम्हे तैरना आता है?
पंडित ' नहीं.
नाविक ' नाव में पानी भर गया है और कुछ समय में यह डूबने वाली है. तैरना आता हो तो आप अपनी जान बचा लीजिए.
वो ज्ञान किस काम का जो बुरे वक़्त में काम न आये बुरे वक़्त में जो लोग हमारे काम आते हैं उनसे हमारे भाईचारे जुड़ जाते हैं और हमारी संतान को वो भाईचारे बोझ और दकियानूसी बात लगने लगती है ! अगर शिक्षा हमें पतन की और ले जा रही है तो वो शिक्षा किसी काम की नहीं !
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Singh, whose Ph.D thesis was an in-depth study of the functioning of one of the largest khap panchayats, Meham Chaubisi, believes that over the last decade, khaps have emerged as oppressive groups who are struggling to come to terms with a society where they are no longer relevant. “If you look at the individuals who occupy positions of power in khap panchayats today, these are generally politically ambitious men who have failed to branch out into the acceptable democratic avenues of power. They shamelessly exploit what used to be an old and respected system,” he says
Khap panchayats now see themselves as keepers of Jat morality and central to their continued existence is the strict, and often brutal, enforcement of the long-held Jat tradition that frowns upon marriage within the same gotra.
Very interesting thesis.
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ravinderjeet
New member
ye sab shadyantar he jaaton ki ektaa aur samaaj ko todne ke liye.taaki jaaton ki shakti ko khatam kiyaa jaa sakey. aur kuchh apney hi bhaai apney aap ko oochh vichaaron vaaley daarshanik dikhaane ke chakkar me samaaj ki maa- bhahn kar rahe he.jo samaaj ke riti riwaaj ko nahi maantey to apne aap ko jat bhi nahi kahnaa chaahiye. aur apney ghar pariwaar me fir jo chaahe karey.aesey bandey jo samaaj daroh karte hein pahley unse niptanaa chaahiye.kai log apne aap ko amerikaa kaa aur british itihaas padh kar samajhdaar aur padhaa likhaa samajhane lagte hein.mene pahley bhi kai post me likhaa he " samaaj kaanoon banaataa he,kaanoon se smaaj nahi banataa " jo bhai iss saadhaaran si baat ko nahi samajh sakte wey digariyon waale nire bewkoof hein.
yudhvirmor
New member
Many of us firmly believe on this conspiracy theory. I think democracy is taking its course where everybody is equal and all have rights to live dignified life. Same Gotra marriage is not illegal as per Indian constitution and nobody has right to kill those people who did so.
However, Only way forward to keep our tradition is to educate our kids and try to logically explain them why we should avoid same gotra marriage.
I am not sure if we can put enough pressure to make amendments in the constitution.
However, Only way forward to keep our tradition is to educate our kids and try to logically explain them why we should avoid same gotra marriage.
I am not sure if we can put enough pressure to make amendments in the constitution.
Some of the members raised an issue that Khap/panchayat/village/community/family did not take any action against men who misbehave with women of their own village. Surprisingly, rather not surprisingly, there were no revert.
On second thoughts, it is definitely a matter of pride and honor to kill a helpless couple (easy preys) to preserve the blue blood, rich heritage and the kingdoms that future generations stand to inherit.
On second thoughts, it is definitely a matter of pride and honor to kill a helpless couple (easy preys) to preserve the blue blood, rich heritage and the kingdoms that future generations stand to inherit.
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I would be the one such volunteer if situation arises in my family irrespective of what other interpret out of it and would happily wait to be hanged.
That's what these Khaps are trying to do. Provoking, appreciating and helping the people to become Volunteers on behalf of them. Good going. Arm yourself and start hunting such cases among all the Kadian villeges on this planet. After all, Bhaichara should remain alive.
Probably you don't understand this gotra-based surrounding bhaichara and over generalising the situation of bhaichara.
Oh yeah .. I am from Mars so its very hard for me to understand.
Am i over generalising the situation or you are over personalising the situation ?
If you believe in some rules or traditions and want people follow them that surely comes under generalisation. On the other hand, if you like to do what you want you can put across any damn theory of your creative mind. But don't axpect people to understand your wildest theories.
Khap are against killing. Hardly they pass such orders. I have no problem with khap not condemening killers.
Who asked about your problem ? You may not having any problems with these Khap's decisions llike so many other people including the killers but others have.
There are only two sides of the coin when Khaps are involved in these isuues. Either they are appreciating these killings or they are condemning it. Truth is very much evident.
They were brother n sister turned faulty husband wife opted to live like that and doomed to be outsed along with their kids. I have no commiseration for such defaulters.
Again you are personalizing it. Its not about what you like or what you don't ?
Suppose the couple ( or so called brother sister ) did the mistake. Then how these wise people ( Khaps )are dealing with it ? Can this type of reverse engineering feasible and practical. Is TERMINATING the process a better solution ?
raj_rathee
New member
Thanks for the post. Nice one.
Loongiwala Chidambram should hang is head in shame and butt out...and spend more time focussing
on saving soldiers from being butchered by Maoists. Or go and jump in bed with his sister's daughter.
Or screw a goat. Heck do what he wants. Just butt out from our affairs.
It is pretty clear that Jat majority is still tradition bound, and still averse to incestual relationships
that Loongiwaala may prefer to enjoy.
The community should stand behind the family and honor system. Obviously foodostaan hindustaan
shamelessly can't deal with real issues (they haven't even hanged that bloody terrorist), but
would prefer to intrude in Jat affairs.
Loongiwala Chidambram should hang is head in shame and butt out...and spend more time focussing
on saving soldiers from being butchered by Maoists. Or go and jump in bed with his sister's daughter.
Or screw a goat. Heck do what he wants. Just butt out from our affairs.
It is pretty clear that Jat majority is still tradition bound, and still averse to incestual relationships
that Loongiwaala may prefer to enjoy.
The community should stand behind the family and honor system. Obviously foodostaan hindustaan
shamelessly can't deal with real issues (they haven't even hanged that bloody terrorist), but
would prefer to intrude in Jat affairs.
One Jat reporter Mandakini Gehlot has written this piece for Indian express about Khaps.
==
In the early forties, when a farmer in the village of Dhabodha in Haryana decided to educate his daughters, he drew the ire of the village panchayat. At a time when social norms dictated that only boys went to school, Lakshman Singh Dalal’s decision to send his daughters to a boarding school created a scandal. A hastily called khap panchayat condemned his action and passed an order that required Dalal to pay a small fortune as fine and face social boycott for two years. His house was stoned, abuses hurled his way, and his daughters were declared ‘unmarriageable’.
Nearly 60 years after my great grandfather Lakshman Singh Dalal was reviled and ostracised merely because he desired a good education for his daughters, nobody so much as batted an eyelid when I was sent to a boarding school, across the country, in Pune. But going back to Dhabodha now, it’s clear that while sending girls to schools may no longer evoke such a bigoted response, in other spheres, especially marriages, the hold of khap panchayats, an informal umbrella grouping of people from several village panchayats, is still strong.
IN July 2009, in a written response to a question about honour killings in Haryana brought on by a khap diktat, Home Minister P. Chidambaram said, “We should hang our heads in shame.”
Members of the Dalal khap in Mandothi village question the minister’s legitimacy to make such observations. “What does he know? He is a South Indian; they marry their sisters’ daughters. Just because they believe it is right, because their custom dictates it, they cannot force us to do the same,” says Ram Chander, a powerful Dalal khap leader.
Recently, the Dhankhar khap—with legal assistance from D.S. Tewatia—drew up a proposal and circulated it to various levels of the government in Haryana, including to Chief Minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda. The proposal states that Section D, Clause 3 of the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 should be amended to reflect Jat sensibilities. “Clause 3 lists out prohibitive degrees of marriage and it clearly states that such marriages are prohibited except in the cases where local customs state otherwise. We want an amendment in the Act that will declare marriages within the father’s and the mother’s gotras wrong,” Dhankhar says.
For complete reading :-
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wherethekhaprules/599573/0
Notice one comment by a jat lady there.
raj_rathee
New member
My advice to all: education, education and more education…
Regards,
Chachoo, education just provides a different way of thinking, usually in conformance with the educators.
I don't think it is very relevent here. All that would be saying is "liberalize".
The community needs to stand by what it believes. It is not about some "right" or "wrong" label.
I think the community is doomed otherwise. The important thing is to stand up for what it believes and considers important.
raj_rathee
New member
Very true Start from culture first. Our childern should be taught aur culture, Moral values, our Society and it's rules.
पंडित और नाविक
एक बार की बात है कि एक पंडित नदी के किनारे खड़ा नाव का इंतजार कर रहा था,
ताकि वह नदी के उस पार जा सके. कुछ समय बाद एक नाविक अपनी नाव के साथ वहाँ आया और पंडित को उसने नाव में बैठा लिया.
नाव धीरे-धीरे चल रही थी और इसी बीच पंडित और नाविक के बीच निम्न बात हुई:
पंडित ' क्या तुमने गीता पढ़ी है?
नाविक ' नहीं, महाराज.
पंडित ' अरे, तुमने अपने जीवन गीता नही पढ़ी क्या तुमने महाभारत पढ़ी है?
नाविक ' नहीं, महाराज.
पंडित ' फिर तो तुमने अपने जीवन में कुछ भी हासिल नहीं किया.
थोड़ी देर बाद, नाविक ने पुछा ' महाराज, क्या तुम्हे तैरना आता है?
पंडित ' नहीं.
नाविक ' नाव में पानी भर गया है और कुछ समय में यह डूबने वाली है. तैरना आता हो तो आप अपनी जान बचा लीजिए.
वो ज्ञान किस काम का जो बुरे वक़्त में काम न आये बुरे वक़्त में जो लोग हमारे काम आते हैं उनसे हमारे भाईचारे जुड़ जाते हैं और हमारी संतान को वो भाईचारे बोझ और दकियानूसी बात लगने लगती है ! अगर शिक्षा हमें पतन की और ले जा रही है तो वो शिक्षा किसी काम की नहीं !
Ha ha...didn't read the hindi part ..but good twist on Col's education mantra...
Friends,
After this brainstorming session of discussion on this topic, following important points seem to have emerged:
After this brainstorming session of discussion on this topic, following important points seem to have emerged:
- Not a single member in favour of intra-clan marriage or incestuous behaviour so to speak. So we should not be dragging this point any longer. (Just a suggestion, choice is yours- floor is open.) We should not be putting words in each other’s mouth. It is human tendency to project oneself as an epitome of morality. What is the truth, non one knows except the person himself. Be it great Nietzsche, Frederick Engels, Gandhi, or Daya Nand. We hardly know about their inner life and pillow secrets, and we should not know. It is, therefore, futile to put our claim to be more ethical and moral than others. What is morality is a debatable matter. Let us discuss it some other time under a different thread. So please do not think that all those who came forward with some scientific reasoning and facts of genetic engineering are seeking approval from society for being incestuous. Our young generation is widely educated and mature enough to manage their personal life. Wherever they need the guidance or blessing from elders they do so and I may tell you the boys and girls from our community are second to none as far as giving respect to elders and following their traditions is concerned. Aberrations and exceptions are always there. The same gotra marriage incidents are hardly less than 1 % and need not be blown out of proportion as the more we publicise it more it will warrant media attention and will further deteriorate the already damaged reputation.
- Majority is against killing. Voting graph is an indication. Majority is in favour of educating /counselling our youth more and more on this subject. So the community leaders need to pay attention to this important aspect. If they so wish, they can try to have a compulsory subject of moral science included in the curriculum in schools and colleges. Community counselling may also be arranged from time to time. I remember, Arya Samaj used to be active and used to come to the schools from time to time to teach basic yoga postures and other aspects of self-restraint and “Brahamcharya” which were very instrumental in shaping a healthy future of many students. Such things are missing nowadays leading to a little degeneration in health, self-restraint and moral values. Some of their briefings were really useful. The movement seems to have decimated considerably. It may be revived, if the community gives proper support to the Arya Samaj institutions.
- While some are in favour of Khaps having supremacy in all community affairs, majority has reservation about it. Here I would like to add that the community leaders can enjoy more respectability if they devote more time and energy on developmental matters viz. improvement in education, road network, electricity, public transport, public health, sanitary conditions etc. They can also exert their influence in curbing the ever-increasing social crimes like eve teasing, rapes and above all the rampant corruption spreading like cancer, etc. etc. These matters assume greater importance than moral policing in matters like same clan marriage which are very rare. The Khaps have, of course, a right to play an advisory role in such matters, but not a right to encroach upon Judiciary. Any such attempt would do only harm to the community.
Its my habit since birth to be precise & express a lot with few words.So pls consider little as too much. Second ally there are much more renowned JAT scholars/historians/philosophers who are silent but can replies your posts in better way but they are not replying...(thats the point).
Same gotra ,same gotra same gotra,khap,khap, khap,khap,khap..............................this rubbish/crap isn't going to last for perhaps another 2-3 decades.
To people who are in favor of killings -Guys how long do you think your khaps crap can last.Perhaps another 2-3-4 decades at max or perhaps little.
CASE 1: Existing khaps-
whats benefits/good khaps done other than ordering/influencing/motivating killings/converting couples to sister-brothers/divorcing/boycotting organizing tents/food/clearing fields for helicopter landing for their political leaders to show their ROBB/RUTVA that they have connections with political leaders.
Peoples who are prasining/swearing/ ready to die for khaps have nothing to do with khaps/jat rituals/traditions.Aise LOGON ko do waqkt ki roti miljati hain in LEADERO ki chaapal chat-chat kar Or rifle ka license mil jata hain.YEH LOG khaps ki baatein karte hain badi-badi par bijli ka bill bhi nahin jama karte Not b'cos they cant do it but b'cos yeh karna nahin chahte apni pathetic mentality ke liye.These craps talk about JAT SAMAJ reforms.
For all jats peoples, Todays KHAPs are nothing more than POLITICAL parties AGENTs.They use you.Reals khaps don't exists anymore.
CASE 2: How khaps etc. crap will die natural death ?
Suppose if khaps etc. keep on succedding making fools of common jats etc. they for how long.Change is law of nature.change or die.
Another 3-4 decades decades you will se no reals jats.In present scenario 3-4% jats are marrying their children in other castes..KHAPS pls stop them or better khaps volunteers kill them as you like .
Another 2-3 decades & seeing present pace of industrilization etc.. all peoples will keep focussing on their growth.peoples wont have much time for these things SAAB APNE APNE KAAM-KAAZ ME LAGE RAHENGE.
But one thing khali,nikkame,haram-khor,joh kam-kar ke khaana nahin chhate woh peoples will keep chanting KHAPS-KHAPS-KHAPS ,same gotra marriage topics etc to make fools of peoples so that inhe do wakt ki roti milta rahein b'cos these peoples dnt know how to work & eat.
Is same gotra marriage is the biggest issue in front of jats !!!! Are there also jats who are not getting DO wakt ki roti / Education / medical treatment etc !!!!
I am against same gotra marriages but at any point killings can't be justified for whatsoever the reaosns......
Same gotra ,same gotra same gotra,khap,khap, khap,khap,khap..............................this rubbish/crap isn't going to last for perhaps another 2-3 decades.
To people who are in favor of killings -Guys how long do you think your khaps crap can last.Perhaps another 2-3-4 decades at max or perhaps little.
CASE 1: Existing khaps-
whats benefits/good khaps done other than ordering/influencing/motivating killings/converting couples to sister-brothers/divorcing/boycotting organizing tents/food/clearing fields for helicopter landing for their political leaders to show their ROBB/RUTVA that they have connections with political leaders.
Peoples who are prasining/swearing/ ready to die for khaps have nothing to do with khaps/jat rituals/traditions.Aise LOGON ko do waqkt ki roti miljati hain in LEADERO ki chaapal chat-chat kar Or rifle ka license mil jata hain.YEH LOG khaps ki baatein karte hain badi-badi par bijli ka bill bhi nahin jama karte Not b'cos they cant do it but b'cos yeh karna nahin chahte apni pathetic mentality ke liye.These craps talk about JAT SAMAJ reforms.
For all jats peoples, Todays KHAPs are nothing more than POLITICAL parties AGENTs.They use you.Reals khaps don't exists anymore.
CASE 2: How khaps etc. crap will die natural death ?
Suppose if khaps etc. keep on succedding making fools of common jats etc. they for how long.Change is law of nature.change or die.
Another 3-4 decades decades you will se no reals jats.In present scenario 3-4% jats are marrying their children in other castes..KHAPS pls stop them or better khaps volunteers kill them as you like .
Another 2-3 decades & seeing present pace of industrilization etc.. all peoples will keep focussing on their growth.peoples wont have much time for these things SAAB APNE APNE KAAM-KAAZ ME LAGE RAHENGE.
But one thing khali,nikkame,haram-khor,joh kam-kar ke khaana nahin chhate woh peoples will keep chanting KHAPS-KHAPS-KHAPS ,same gotra marriage topics etc to make fools of peoples so that inhe do wakt ki roti milta rahein b'cos these peoples dnt know how to work & eat.
Is same gotra marriage is the biggest issue in front of jats !!!! Are there also jats who are not getting DO wakt ki roti / Education / medical treatment etc !!!!
I am against same gotra marriages but at any point killings can't be justified for whatsoever the reaosns......
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pooja12goyat
New member
there is avery simple solution to this problem. our law prespects customs, so when other communities coustoms got a due respect ( by allowing sapinda marriages) then why dont ours. we have to approach to parliamentrians for having an ammendment in hindu marriage act so that these type of marriages becomes void ab initio.
n then our khaps are not needed to take such harsh steps.
n then our khaps are not needed to take such harsh steps.