Jats as the most backward community

[shamshermalik]

Respected Tewatiaji,

I was expecting feedback from you to my post dated sept 18. In which I wanted to know few things from you...can you just look into that.

Regards,
Shamsher

 

[shamshermalik]

One question to all learned members.

Which casts do you think are doing better than Jats? Please name those.

 

[nknauhwar]

Dear members

I'm from Mathura district of UP. Looking at the conditions of UP/Haryana Jat unemplyoyed youths I strongly feel that Jats must come under OBC. UP and Delhi Jats are already under OBC but on state basis only.

However, those Jats who donot want to come under reservation will still have a chance to apply in General Categoty even if Jats as caste are in OBC. Just because of some well to do people we should not let the entire needy and poor mass of village Jat young boys to suffer who do not have equal opportunity to compete with the forward people in city.

As far as idea of economic basis is concerned in backward castes; why cant this idea be implemented in forward castes after giving reservation to OBC? I do not believe in dilution of merit by reservation as I can not agree that 80% backward castes people have no merit. Brain is not limited to top few percent castes only.

Rest all other talks here regarding history etc. are not exactly related to the welfare of Jats and should be avoided in this thread.

 

[nknauhwar]

Particulaly, when Gujjar, Yadav, Meena etc. are already there in reservation then what is bad for Jats there?

 

[narenderkharb]

Sorry....... Confused Stand

Dear Dr. Sahab,
What had been done, is not right and that is exactly what we are discussing. The question is whether we should become part of this wrong for our personal gains, or fight for what is right for the nation. By not raising our voice and fighting till end, and surrendering to the wrong, we might just get a little bit temporary advantage for our community at the expense of the nation. My outlook is a little bigger and broader on the issues that has a conflict between the community and the nation. I think (and I may be wrong and for some insane too) if we can build a strong nation on the basis of equality, we would have more permanent prosperity, peace and development. We need to take our weak fellows together on the journey to success and progress, but that should not be at the expense of our talented people irrespective of caste and religion they come from.
Prosperous and advanced countries draw talent from other countries for their development, here we are ignoring our own talent just because we want little extra then our brother next door. it is NO.
These are my personal views and I have my reasons for that.

Dear Col.Saheb


You were really honest while replying that

Young people are not getting equal oppertunities in their studies and competions..ie rural people are disadvantaged as compared to urban people.

You agree that rural young people are no less talented than these urban well tutioned guys..

You do recognise the influence of money and beaurocratic interference....

What does this mean .......

It means that posts and oppertunities are not already offered on the basis of talent.

Than what does your statement again and again At the cost of talent mean? Can you explain a bit?

Had these rural guys got same facilities and influence they could have got a job that went to a son of more influential guy.

This simply mean that current system of offering job and oppertunities is not
just and ethical.

So a better system was thought of that was ...

Compartmentalisation of oppertunities...ie reservation on group bases.

which is instead of 80% of jobs going to people with 20%of population make certain compartment where atleast other people also get some posts which they could not because of prevalent unequalities of oppertunities.

Contrary to certain people belief, this system was the brain child of choudhary Charan Singh but there was a confusion about jats so the report was pending....

Now this further can be improved by implementation of creamy layer with in a group or like hegde formula but the first step of its implementation has to be implemented first and other steps can be taken later...

As you know that 80% of govt jobs were kept by 20% of cast group.

Was that ethical??

Don't you think that it was against the basis of equality of oppertunity on which the strength of a nation depends.
To sum it up this step was taken with a right motive but implemented in a political opportunist style so it lost its sheen...

Jats were just taken aback as they should have been there but due to political game plan they were left out of it.So they just opposed it.
Had it been implemented honestly taking deserving jats because 80%of them have rural background they would have supported this step with whole.

Now we have really no choice....

As similar other groups have been taken and our youth are facing a dark future ....

Or we can oppose it and than put our rural youth in direct competion with all those city guys whose tution teachers come regularly after their class and than they go to some reputated coaching institutes and finally sit in the same hall with our village guy.

Yes I forgot to tell you that electricity comes in village only for four hours.

 

[narenderkharb]

Dear Col Saheb

To make you understand the gravity of situation let me ask you a personal question ....

Suppose your son have a chance to get a seat of medical collage offered on the basis of donation that you can afford....

Will you go for the carrier of your son and pay the money to medical college or will you deny that....

I hope an honest answer .Your son's carrier is at stake..?

Well let me remind you that giving donation is also unethical.

 

[narenderkharb]

I pointed out this so many times earlier but i don't know why still people are thinking that reservation is the key of everything.

Jat people have all the capabilities they dont want any reservation. Why you people always talk about reservation.
Reseravtion will help you upto certain point, after that....who will help you....ur knowledge will help you not reservation.
So dont depend up on reservation.
Improve your knowledge.

Hi Vijay

Which world are you living?

When reservation is going from the education institute to getting a job from govt. to govt.aided and from next session to all the private institute will there be any space of life that will be unaffected by reservation .....

Can we behave like pigeon that closes its eyes seeing the arriving cat that it is not here.

Have you been recently to any village and seen the situation of youth there.

Do you sincerely believe that their interests won't be harmed when all other group with similar opportunities are already there in reserved group,and city based casts are already in advantageous positions because of urban environment.

Pargya

We want our younger generation to reach that certain point without any unfavourable disadvantage after that it is their hard luck and efforts.

What we certainly don't want is their disqualification before the Start of Race of life for them.

 

[narenderkharb]

Dr S Malik

You are supporting reservation but on economic base .Right..?

I will give you a personal example from my life depicting it hollowness.

In my tenth class exam my father sent me to a nearby city for education where I had my friend Sanjay sethi ,A guy who is a garment exporter in lajapt nagar these days.

In papers I could not find him in exam halls .I asked him what happened ?He told me that he was enrolled in a near by village school in tenth and was studying in our school due to his mother's influence. On asking why he replied that Devilal Govt. is going to give some watage to students from rural areas.

While a rural father never knew it others were planning for their childern two years in advance and getting what was never meant for them.

I wanted to highlight how benefits without proper safegards are always cornered by sections that are not meant for this.

Personal example are pesonal I will give you Some general examples.

 

[narenderkharb]

You might not be knowing this but economic weightage was enforced by Devilal govt. in Haryana long back.You might be surprised that though it was difficult to get a economic backward certificate for a farmer despite of well known postion of Agriculture income as they could never hide their village lands but it was so easy for a city business man who never show his money.So we used to be surprised to see guys bringing this certificate who used to come in cars in colleges.

In modern age you might have seen THESE RESERVED PLOTS of private clonies in gurgaon like Dlf unitech for economic poorer sections .

Have you seen any poor applying there ?

What happens that all wealthier people apply just by giving affidavits that we are poor below this income.

We have another economic base taxation where we tax as per earnings..

Have you ever seen who pays the tax?

Only those govt.servants who can't hide it.

You will be surprised to find out the tax paid by some of the richest LIKE BIRALA DALMMIYA AND OTHERS.

80 % of subsidies meant for poor peope reach rich man's pockets.

Though it was not reqired as it not applicable in current scenario where we are to just say yes or no...but it was to make you aware what happens when such measures are taken that can be manipulated and let you come out of moral dilemma.

Economic criterion is such and so only people like CH.Charan Singh thought of it but it was just utilized with a bad intention by Sarad yadav and VP Singh.

So we have to go for this compartmentalization of oppertunities via reservation on cast base and we can go in second stage for its proper reach to deserving persons but for that we can't avoid the first step that is must which is

Struggle hard for jats to be there so that justice being done and future of our younger brothers are not harmed.

I assure you that you are not going to get it so easily as you decide and govt will invite you immidiately please have it ,the real struggle will commence only after our unanimous decision,as all elements traditionaly enmical to our interests will fight tooth and nail to oppose it.

 

[narenderkharb]

Clear Cut Aproach

Dear members

I'm from Mathura district of UP. Looking at the conditions of UP/Haryana Jat unemplyoyed youths I strongly feel that Jats must come under OBC. UP and Delhi Jats are already under OBC but on state basis only.

However, those Jats who donot want to come under reservation will still have a chance to apply in General Categoty even if Jats as caste are in OBC. Just because of some well to do people we should not let the entire needy and poor mass of village Jat young boys to suffer who do not have equal opportunity to compete with the forward people in city.

As far as idea of economic basis is concerned in backward castes; why cant this idea be implemented in forward castes after giving reservation to OBC? I do not believe in dilution of merit by reservation as I can not agree that 80% backward castes people have no merit. Brain is not limited to top few percent castes only.

Rest all other talks here regarding history etc. are not exactly related to the welfare of Jats and should be avoided in this thread.

Very good post Neeraj Bhai

Keep it up.

 

[raj2rif]

Nice Question

Dear Col Saheb

To make you understand the gravity of situation let me ask you a personal question ....

Suppose your son have a chance to get a seat of medical collage offered on the basis of donation that you can afford....

Will you go for the carrier of your son and pay the money to medical college or will you deny that....

I hope an honest answer .Your son's carrier is at stake..?

Well let me remind you that giving donation is also unethical.

Dear Mr. Kharab,
It may sound a little unreal to you and many more readers, but since you have raised a very good question, I must answer it to the best of my abilities.
Firstly, I come from a little different back ground (believe me it is rural). My elder brother retired from BITS Pilani (Late Dr. B.S. Tavathia) from mathematics department. He was also head of the department for some time but then opted out of it due to not getting involved into any kind of politics that goes in various institutions. His son, did not get very good marks in high school. He told his son, that if he feels that he would get admission in BITS because of his father's influence, he is sadly mistaken. He told his son, that he has to earn it. I think that was a turning point in his life. The boy got close to 90% marks in 12th and got admission on his own merit. He did his Ph.D. from US and has been working with a firm which trimmed down its staff to barest minimum but he has survived. I think my answer is now clear to you. I told same to my son. My son worked hard and got admission in all the top three universities in US where he applied, and finished his BS in Cinematography with almost perfect GPA.
What I am trying to tell the readers, that there is no substitute to hard work.
I remember me and one of my friend (Gujar by caste) went to Modinagar for studies in 9th grade. Based on our % in 8th grade, I was 13th and he was 14th in merit of the 14 student selected to compete in a scholarship program I think it was at district or may be at state level. Both of us used to go in the morning 12 Kms on bicycle then catch the train from Modinagar to Meerut to apprear in the exam (there were 4 papers on four days) When the result came, my friend topped the college and I came second.
We have another example in our village. One boy whose father had a big family to support and very little land was classmate of one of my cousin. They were about 10 odd boys from the village of which probably this boy was from the poorest family financially. This boy, used to come to me (I was doing B.Sc. that time) in summer vacation and learn mathematics. He did exceptionally well in life and is a very senior engineer with one of the best government organization. As against this, these boys used to laugh at him for he had a torn trouser some times, they are all struggling in the village, for they did not make use of the opportunities that came their way.
Let me assure you, any thing that comes for free does not last very long. I feel reservation is one of those things. It is same as untouchability. What choice a child has to be born in rich or poor family or in rural or urban family? I used to feel sorry for children of what we call lower caste, for they had no hand in getting born in lower caste. They were discriminated then, which was not right. What reservation is doing, discrimination and that is not right. Whether Jats become part of it, that off course the majority would decide, but as a human being, I have my own vision (which by all means may be wrong for some or most of us) and I think I am convinced that "Reservation" of any kind is bad for the national development. If at all help needs to be given, it should be given financially, with promise to return that help (so that same money can be used for another needy person).
I hope I have been able to answer most of your questions, even though the answers may not be on expected lines.

 

[narenderkharb]

Thanks for your reply Col Saheb.

Please don't confuse discrimination with reservation.

As the present system is really discriminatory and reservation is one step towards removing this discrimination and we agree that it can be improved further.

Now can you reply my post no.105 written specially for you.

 

[nknauhwar]

Though I'm not very good in history but I feel that out of 9 states seven were won by congress, nearly about Chhoturam's time. Punjab and Bengal were out of its reach. n, hence, they were divided. If I'm not wrong then all CMs were the brahmins of almost all the states at that time. The question arises then "Only Brahmins knew politics? Or, only Rajputs knew it?" n now a days more than any other caste, Yadavs know it. They are ruling the two most populous states of country like UP n Bihar. n Jats are zero in it, why? n till today they are not ashamed of reservation like you! Whether, it is due to the idealism of Chaudhary Sahb? ki mere bad mera beta politics me nahin aana chhahiye? ye to ek dynastic rule ho jayega. Lekin kya aur bhi politician aise hi the?

My contentions are again the same. Whether SC/ST never had brain? Who was balmiki? Whether only Britisher had the brain? There were just a few? That time they even proved at the time of simon commission that Indians dnt have brain.

Well Sir, with due appology to all who are opposing the reservation for Jats,

I wish that all Jats should always be in forward category, even if they are looteres, n they should apply these rules of economic reservation on them at home/village also.

"Ek shahri Jat apne bade/chhote gaanv wale bhai se baap ki Jaaydaad me se hissa to baraber baant leta hai. vahan use koi economic reservation ki baat yaad nahin aati"

 

[nknauhwar]

Dear Col.Saheb


You were really honest while replying that

Young people are not getting equal oppertunities in their studies and competions..ie rural people are disadvantaged as compared to urban people.

You agree that rural young people are no less talented than these urban well tutioned guys..

You do recognise the influence of money and beaurocratic interference....

What does this mean .......

It means that posts and oppertunities are not already offered on the basis of talent.

Than what does your statement again and again At the cost of talent mean? Can you explain a bit?

Had these rural guys got same facilities and influence they could have got a job that went to a son of more influential guy.

This simply mean that current system of offering job and oppertunities is not
just and ethical.

So a better system was thought of that was ...

Compartmentalisation of oppertunities...ie reservation on group bases.

which is instead of 80% of jobs going to people with 20%of population make certain compartment where atleast other people also get some posts which they could not because of prevalent unequalities of oppertunities.

Contrary to certain people belief, this system was the brain child of choudhary Charan Singh but there was a confusion about jats so the report was pending....

Now this further can be improved by implementation of creamy layer with in a group or like hegde formula but the first step of its implementation has to be implemented first and other steps can be taken later...

As you know that 80% of govt jobs were kept by 20% of cast group.

Was that ethical??

Don't you think that it was against the basis of equality of oppertunity on which the strength of a nation depends.
To sum it up this step was taken with a right motive but implemented in a political opportunist style so it lost its sheen...

Jats were just taken aback as they should have been there but due to political game plan they were left out of it.So they just opposed it.
Had it been implemented honestly taking deserving jats because 80%of them have rural background they would have supported this step with whole.

Now we have really no choice....

As similar other groups have been taken and our youth are facing a dark future ....

Or we can oppose it and than put our rural youth in direct competion with all those city guys whose tution teachers come regularly after their class and than they go to some reputated coaching institutes and finally sit in the same hall with our village guy.

Yes I forgot to tell you that electricity comes in village only for four hours.

whenever, we talk we talk in terms of average n not that what happened in my or your family. The average Jat young boy is still deserving reservation as much as his other counterparts are. like gujar, ahir, n meena etc.

 

[raj2rif]

Here are My Views.

Dear Col.Saheb


You were really honest while replying that

Young people are not getting equal oppertunities in their studies and competions..ie rural people are disadvantaged as compared to urban people.

You agree that rural young people are no less talented than these urban well tutioned guys..

You do recognise the influence of money and beaurocratic interference....

What does this mean .......



It means that posts and oppertunities are not already offered on the basis of talent.

Than what does your statement again and again At the cost of talent mean? Can you explain a bit?.

Had these rural guys got same facilities and influence they could have got a job that went to a son of more influential guy.

This simply mean that current system of offering job and oppertunities is not
just and ethical.

So a better system was thought of that was ...

Compartmentalisation of oppertunities...ie reservation on group bases. [/quote]

Dear Mr. Kharab,

You are now mixing the issue of reservation with corruption. Both are evil.
If the ward of an influential person gets the job as against a deserving candidate for reasons other than talent, than that is an unfair level of playing field. The idea should be to remove these things and make it a level field, rather than creating further unlevel fields, which is exactly what reservation is doing.

Further, these influential people are not only in the upper castes or on the basis of castes. Hence any thing based on caste or religion is not good for the society. If you want to promote some one who is less fortunate than others, then promote him by giving him facilities that matches his competitors. That is a good service.

Unfortunately we don't see the wrong things done by many of our kids. I had seen many of my collegues never went to attend the classes, even though their parents had sent them for that purpose. Is system responsible for their failure? Is any influential person responsible for their failure. The most unfortunate part is that more often than not, we try and find some excuses for our own failures. But that is a different subject all together. Let us concentrate on reservations.

By all means support the reservation with all your might. I have nothing against it, but I am not for it and that is fine. You may call me idealistic or selfish whatever word you want to choose. We all have our convictions and that is what my own conviction is.

Reservation was started for first 10 years as per the constitution. The politicians made it a election issue and continued with it. The best thing is that they find more and more supporters for it. Bharat mata ko loot sake to loot lo, that is what most people are doing. I have seen people in all walks of life who don't like corruption, but they do it all the time themselves. Each posting is sold, where one can make under the table money. Some of them are even controlled directly by the CMs. We don't like a politician who has not helped us get undue advantage. The logic given is, since all are doing it, I must do it too. But does that make the wrong thing right? And then why crib about corruption? On the first opportunity we want to become part of it. As I had written earlier, we all want to follow the path of least resistance. It is easy to get jats included in OBC rather than oppose reservation as a concept.

We all are capable of making our choices. You want to follow one and I want to follow the other. There is nothing wrong in it. After all we are a democratic society, and are free to practice our beliefs.

I have tried my level best to explain to you my reasons for being against it. If I am unable to convince you, then probably I lack power of expression, or the otherside is probably more convincing. Let us do what we feel is right. We are all grown up people.

My suggestion to all the readers is just one. Kindly look into your self and find out how many times we have tried to fight for the right things and against the wrong things, when it does not affect us? I think we will all get our answers, what is right and what is wrong.

which is instead of 80% of jobs going to people with 20%of population make certain compartment where atleast other people also get some posts which they could not because of prevalent unequalities of oppertunities.

Contrary to certain people belief, this system was the brain child of choudhary Charan Singh but there was a confusion about jats so the report was pending....

Now this further can be improved by implementation of creamy layer with in a group or like hegde formula but the first step of its implementation has to be implemented first and other steps can be taken later...

As you know that 80% of govt jobs were kept by 20% of cast group.

Was that ethical??

Don't you think that it was against the basis of equality of oppertunity on which the strength of a nation depends.
To sum it up this step was taken with a right motive but implemented in a political opportunist style so it lost its sheen...

Jats were just taken aback as they should have been there but due to political game plan they were left out of it.So they just opposed it.
Had it been implemented honestly taking deserving jats because 80%of them have rural background they would have supported this step with whole.

Now we have really no choice....

As similar other groups have been taken and our youth are facing a dark future ....

Or we can oppose it and than put our rural youth in direct competion with all those city guys whose tution teachers come regularly after their class and than they go to some reputated coaching institutes and finally sit in the same hall with our village guy.

Yes I forgot to tell you that electricity comes in village only for four hours.

 

[shamshermalik]

Dr S Malik

You are supporting reservation but on economic base .Right..?

I will give you a personal example from my life depicting it hollowness.

In my tenth class exam my father sent me to a nearby city for education where I had my friend Sanjay sethi ,A guy who is a garment exporter in lajapt nagar these days.

In papers I could not find him in exam halls .I asked him what happened ?He told me that he was enrolled in a near by village school in tenth and was studying in our school due to his mother's influence. On asking why he replied that Devilal Govt. is going to give some watage to students from rural areas.

While a rural father never knew it others were planning for their childern two years in advance and getting what was never meant for them.

I wanted to highlight how benefits without proper safegards are always cornered by sections that are not meant for this.

Personal example are pesonal I will give you Some general examples.

No, My first stand is NO RESERVATION, AND RESERVATION IF ANY THEN ONLY ON ECONOMIC BASIS.

In your above statement you are talking about corruption. We have to make a stratey to minimise the misuse of system but no system is fool proof but still it will be better than that cast based reservation where people are enjoying reservation for decades and for generations.


If we see any such cases then we should point it out and many such cases were noted that time in which claim was false and they were shown the door. But you should not mix corruption here. If we ignore such things then we also indirectly become a part of that corrupt practice.


You did not answer one simple question that I asked.

Which casts are doing better than Jats? Please neme.

 

[shamshermalik]

As the present system is really discriminatory and reservation is one step towards removing this discrimination and we agree that it can be improved further.

Reservation donot remove discrimination but adds to it.

 

[sanjeevm]

So, Colonel Saheb, are you saying that Jat fellows ain't competition worthy?

I can't dispute the hard work. Nonetheless, I would suggest Jat fellows to work smart too.

 

[raj2rif]

Difference?

So, Colonel Saheb, are you saying that Jat fellows ain't competition worthy?

I can't dispute the hard work. Nonetheless, I would suggest Jat fellows to work smart too.

Dear Mr. Mahlawat,
First of all, in my post I have talked only about the Jat fellows when comparing the successful one with unsuccessful one. The Engineer in example I have referred to is a Jat fellow and who laughged at him while he was working hard are also Jat fellow.

You have talked about working hard and working smart. What is the definition of working smart? How does it actually gets executed in real life? How do you differentiate it from working smart. For me that Engineer in question not only worked hard but worked smart too, as he worked hard when it was essential. His counterparts are living in poverty, blaming the system for their failures and mind you are still not working hard or smart whatever you call it.
The point I am trying to make here is that we all get our opportunities in life. The first one comes when our parents send us to school. We all know how many make best use of it. That is the bigger issue to be handled.
There is a lot one can write on this issue. Some time people define corrupt practices also as working smart. I am really not competent enough to define working smart as most people may perceive it. To me working hard at the opportune time is also working smart.

 

[rkumar]

Reservation or no reservation, Jats will never be able to get the benefit of jobs unless they get political power. Think for a moment all Jats under OBC. This will put them in the catagory of Yadavs in UP. All OBCs being equal, Yadavs will walk away with the cake...aur Jat dekhte rah jayenge... Reservation in Haryana will amount to less Jats getting the jobs as there will be upper limit on their share and even Jat CMs won't be able to help them after that...

RK^2