Jats in Indian epics

where had Aryan come from? and where had/has he gone?
where had Jat come from? and where had/has he gone?
where had the Newton's law......
 
vinodks said:
Thanks for keeping humor in jat history section, otherwise it become quite boring... Ajatshatru(born of Bimbisara and Lichhavi or Koshal lady) was enemy of Vajjan confedracy which also was, according to you of course, nothing but Jats...

-vinod
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History as we disussd earlier can only be searched by constant reasoning questions and counter questions....Hypothesis and counterhypothesis..

I proposed long back to tewatia ji and may be to Laxman ji also in my personal meeting that Ajatsatru looks to have a connection with Jats but our suggestions were diametrically opposite...


I thought that Ajatsatru adopted this title as he was enemy of jats not a jat himself.


My reasoning for this theory was .....

As jats were known as ajzats only and indian pronunciation of azat is zat , and till today we call ourselves zats not jats if someone notice bit carefuly.

These parthian zats theory I proposed to Ravi ji also (in addition to other forms both jats and non Jats like IDF)during his last visit to India as not only their clans but their area of inhabitance their migration and their reference in Indian books make it clear that they were jats only.

I further stressed that it is the only missing link in our history that other Jat historians failed to notice.


Now there were two strong kingdom in time around ajatsatru ..

One was northwest kingdom of Morya and considered Jats that was really poweful to get the matrimonial alliances of Iranian great Kings.

and other eastern ajatsatru empire...

Naturally their was enemity and a conflict must have been wars and like prbhakarwardhan who took the title HUN HARIN(destroyer of Huns) ajatsatru took the title of Ajatsatru ie enemy of azats(most probably morya jats) whose kingdom was centred around Ghandara .

I again stress taking this missing link ,in Jat history will amply clear the hazy picture about Jat history.

But before that let us see what are the weak points in this propostions.
 
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Problem comes when we apply too much imgination and become less self-critic...

Ajatshatru's (in prakrit Ajatsattu) other name was Kunika as Bimishra's other name was Srenika... Ajatshtru is title like Akber's title was Jalaluddin (most of ancient kings had a title, e.g. I could come across atleast 5 kings who had tilte Vikramditya)...

Ajatshatru title has been adapted by other kings too e.g. Yuddhistra in Gita's 1.10.32.... there are atleast 10 such verses in which this meaning is intended, I am pasting them at the end of the post...

ajāta-śatruḥ pṛtanāḿ
gopīthāya madhu-dviṣaḥ
parebhyaḥ śańkitaḥ snehāt
prāyuńkta catur-ańgiṇīm

SYNONYMS
ajāta-śatruḥ — Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, who was no one's enemy;
(source http://vedabase.net/sb/1/10/32/)

Etymolgocally Ajatshatru means man with no enemy... root is jata which vast range of meanings (http://www.vedabase.net/j/jata)
Also look of meaning of ajata (http://www.vedabase.net/a/ajata)

Jata and sujata(one with noble birth) are oft mentioned names in Rgveda and Dahiya had been very liberal in takeing them JAT... we dont find word JAT in ancient scripture it might be that it orginated from jat but no such proof exists... so meaning of Ajtshatru meaning enemy of Jats is absurd... he was enemy of Lichhavi, Videha and Malla confedracy, lets leave it at that...

Ajatshatru is commonly used word today too... people use it in day to day life and a quick search shows that http://www.swaminarayan.org/shastrijimaharaj/life/30.htm

I wont bother to put more links....

-vinod

narenderkharb said:
History as we disussd earlier can only be searched by constant reasoning questions and counter questions....Hypothesis and counterhypothesis..

I proposed long back to tewatia ji and may be to Laxman ji also in my personal meeting that Ajatsatru looks to have a connection with Jats but our suggestions were diametrically opposite...


I thought that Ajatsatru adopted this title as he was enemy of jats not a jat himself.


My reasoning for this theory was .....

As jats were known as ajzats only and indian pronunciation of azat is zat , and till today we call ourselves zats not jats if someone notice bit carefuly.

These parthian zats theory I proposed to Ravi ji also (in addition to other forms both jats and non Jats like IDF)during his last visit to India as not only their clans but their area of inhabitance their migration and their reference in Indian books make it clear that they were jats only.

I further stressed that it is the only missing link in our history that other Jat historians failed to notice.


Now there were two strong kingdom in time around ajatsatru ..

One was northwest kingdom of Morya and considered Jats that was really poweful to get the matrimonial alliances of Iranian great Kings.

and other eastern ajatsatru empire...

Naturally their was enemity and a conflict must have been wars and like prbhakarwardhan who took the title HUN HARIN(destroyer of Huns) ajatsatru took the title of Ajatsatru ie enemy of azats(most probably morya jats) whose kingdom was centred around Ghandara .

I again stress taking this missing link ,in Jat history will amply clear the hazy picture about Jat history.

But before that let us see what are the weak points in this propostions.
Click to expand...
 
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meaning of Ajatshtru

http://www.vedabase.net/a/ajata

ajata

ajāta-śatroḥ — of one who has no enemy; SB 1.8.5
ajāta-śatrau — unto one who has no enemy; SB 1.10.6
ajāta-śatruḥ — Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, who was no one's enemy; SB 1.10.32
ajāta — never born; SB 1.13.31
ajāta-śatrum — unto Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira; SB 1.13.36
ajāta-śatroḥ — of one who had no enemy; SB 3.1.8
ajāta-śatroḥ — of Yudhiṣṭhira, who has no enemy; SB 3.1.11
ajāta-śatravaḥ — inimical to none; SB 3.25.21
ajāta — not arisen; SB 3.30.14
ajāta-pakṣāḥ — who have not yet grown wings; SB 6.11.26
ajāta-viklavaḥ — not afraid; SB 6.12.3
ajāta-śatrave — Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, who had no enemy; SB 7.1.13
ajāta-pakṣān — who have not grown wings to fly; SB 7.2.55
ajāta-janma-sthiti-saṃyamāya — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is never born but whose appearance in different incarnations never ceases; SB 8.6.8
ajāta-śatruḥ — King Yudhiṣṭhira, whose enemy was never born; SB 10.71.23
ajāta-śatrave — to Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, whose enemy was never born; SB 10.72.14
ajāta-śatroḥ — of Yudhiṣṭhira, whose enemy was never born; SB 10.75.1-2
ajāta-śatruḥ — King Yudhiṣṭhira; SB 10.75.39
ajāta — who has not developed; SB 11.8.29
ajāta-śatruḥ — King Yudhiṣṭhira, who considered no one his enemy; SB 11.19.11
ajāta-śatravaḥ — without enemies; CC Madhya 22.81
jāta-ajāta-rati-bhede — by distinction of mature love and immature love; CC Madhya 24.288
ajāta-rati sādhaka-bhakta — immature devotees engaged in devotional service; CC Madhya 24.291
 
Laxman ji, Could you please tell us which linguistic rules say that.

Also plz provide proofs of name Haryana in Vedic scriptures and reference of this post.

Geographically, this land was called kurushetra, which was a country rather than city, land of kurus
east of which -panchala, land of panchals
south of which- madhyadesha, matsya, srinjaya
north(punjab) of which- turghna
west of which- bharata also iritsu

name haryana may have occured but as symbolic meaning as green land, although I would be glad to hear that if there are proofs...

-vinod

lrburdak said:

All these are still Jat villages. In ancient times these were included in Haryana. Haryana is nothing but Aryana. Here H is absent which is not un common as we speak Hospital as Aspatal in Hindi and Urdu. It is due to linguistic variations.

Thus Aryans were Jats inhabiting ancient Haryana and at the same time their another branch was at Iran which is also known as Aryana. The similarity of many common places and rivers proves this.
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vinodks said:
Problem comes when we apply too much imgination and become less self-critic...
-vinod
Click to expand...

Vinod

I wish we can see a post from you with a better start than as usual starting accusations...

now I said about parthian Jats theory and possible ajatsatru title significance...

I gave some supporting arguments ..

Did you go through them ?

Was they mere imagination ?was their any denial of self criticims?

If therewas no self critism or otherwise involved than what was relevance of unnecessary remarks,

Now I gave possible reasons about Ajatsatru title which we also say mere title.

You asy that it was a meaning something else...

How ...what is your reasoning ,how solid ,let us see...

Ajatsatru you say has its base from Dhatu jata

Now you and me or other have read hindi and some sanskrit also ..
Can you tell me a meaning of jata in hindi or sanskrit...
pls try to put that meaning and try to come to conclusion...
And yes try to find a meaning that is used, not a hypothetical or imaginary meaning of some vedams or voice of dharma or similar sites and even if you find that try to fit that here without using your imagination skills also.

Let us see how solid your explanations are????
 
The meaning posted by me is correct as per sanskrit dictionary and Gita shalokas... it would be profitable for all of us to agree on such reliable proofs and move ahead with next stage rather than arguing on this... people are free to give whatever meaning they wish to give to ajatshatru, but I would go ahead with usual, traditional and commonsense meaning as was given in the link... Ajatshatru is not critical to history of jats anyway and it came up because of tewatia ji's habit of "thinking aloud" in the forum... meaning of jata is SOLID as was given in the link...
Similarly there is no scope of argument regarding Kurushtera and Haryana... lets talk something else if there is...

-vinod

narenderkharb said:
Vinod

I wish we can see a post from you with a better start than as usual starting accusations...

now I said about parthian Jats theory and possible ajatsatru title significance...

I gave some supporting arguments ..

Did you go through them ?

Was they mere imagination ?was their any denial of self criticims?

If therewas no self critism or otherwise involved than what was relevance of unnecessary remarks,

Now I gave possible reasons about Ajatsatru title which we also say mere title.

You asy that it was a meaning something else...

How ...what is your reasoning ,how solid ,let us see...

Ajatsatru you say has its base from Dhatu jata

Now you and me or other have read hindi and some sanskrit also ..
Can you tell me a meaning of jata in hindi or sanskrit...
pls try to put that meaning and try to come to conclusion...
And yes try to find a meaning that is used, not a hypothetical or imaginary meaning of some vedams or voice of dharma or similar sites and even if you find that try to fit that here without using your imagination skills also.

Let us see how solid your explanations are????
Click to expand...
 
Any 12th class book or any usual and traditional book mentions that India was Aryanised by Aryans from North-West India. By my commonsense I'm saying that India was Jatised by Jats from North-West. I find more weightage in it because till today more Jat/Got exists in North-West India and rest of India also as compared to Aryan.

I've never seen any Aryan in my life in North-West India except for some Arya Samaji people who write Arya. Similarly in rest of India no Aryan, I've met.

While Aryan phase was temporary. This Jat/Got phase was more durable and widespread.

Dahiya's use of Jat/Sujat for Jat is not in liberal sense. Its correct and he is serious.
 
lrburdak said:
Five villages demanded by Pandavas
Mahabharata tells that When Pandavas were defeated in chausar they were forced to leave the state for 13 years. During most of this time, they lived at place called Varnavata (modern Bairat) in Jaipur district in Rajasthan.
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Burdak ji There is a village name Barnava in Meerut district and it is believed that it the same place which is called varnavat in Mahabharat. yahi pe lakh ka mahal banaya gaya thaa, the remains of the lakha palace are still found there.

please follow the link for more detail about the place
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/barnava.htm
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/lakshagrah.htm

and now you are saying that old varnavat is in Jaipur district. ye baat kuch samajh me nahi hai.
 
Similarly, any 12th class book of history say NCERT mentions six reasons of supremacy of Magadh as compared to other Mahajanpadas, like Kashi, Kausal, Ayodhya, Avanti etc. Like more elephants, proximity to iron ores, strategic location of Rajgrih or Patliputra, ambitious rulers, fertile land, good rain fall etc. etc. But the most important in these is given that people and tribes around Magadh were recently hinduised and hence they were more enthusiatic. Now, this last word can not be digested by my commonsense as hindu word itself originated after Arabs came to India i.e. after 12-13 centuries later. I'd call this word also Jatised only. This phenomenon of Hinduisation/Jatisation was continuing in the times of Ajatshatru. I do know the meaning of Ajatshatru as given in traditional books. We are sitting here to oppose traditional books only regarding Jat history.

arunshamli said:
Burdak ji There is a village name Barnava in Meerut district and it is believed that it the same place which is called varnavat in Mahabharat. yahi pe lakh ka mahal banaya gaya thaa, the remains of the lakha palace are still found there.

please follow the link for more detail about the place
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/barnava.htm
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/lakshagrah.htm

and now you are saying that old varnavat is in Jaipur district. ye baat kuch samajh me nahi hai.
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Baaliyan Sahbji

Burdak yhamn ppe koi jadu mantar nna lle ke baithaa. us ki aankh ka chasma itna badda koni jis me tte bbaddi duuur tuck ddikkhe. koshish kare sse. thaamm bhi karo bhai.

But good info. Aap log Jatland.com ke history channel pe aaya kariye. You are most welcome. Jat history is very easy to understand. Just move with some commonsense but with some basic knowledge of history of at least a school standard.

Plz see the spirit of Burdakji (and like wise all Jat history members here). We, really, can not expect anyone to be very precise when the whole Jat history is still in investigative stage.

Ramayana also is to be understood from this point of Jatisation. There were some people of original forests who used to oppose this. They were called Rakhshasas, in Ramayna.

When Viswamitra takes away Rama and Lakshmana, for destroying the Rakshasas, he is really taking two Jats to teach the forest people, what yagna is?

And now why these forest people are opposing him?

My commonsense says that they were going to burn their forest and their way of living. Hence, they were opposing.

jo ghar me hi arya samaj ki tarah yagna karna hota to un forest people ka kya jata tha?
 
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This Kausal/Ayodhya episode seems to be during the period of these Mahajanpadas. Mahabharat seems to be older than Ramayan.
 
Many Iranian students were there with me who could not pronounce Jat as Jat. Unko bataya gaya ki ye Jat ke peechhe Tote wala t nahin Tata/Bidla wala t hai. Ub tum bol ke dikhao. They all failed one by one.

here people are there who can not question why Gujjar rather Goojar/Gurjar variation but do it when Jat and Jat variation is there.

Meri khopdi kharab ho gayee in dono ko alagh karte. Aakhir kaise likhen ki ye dono alagh hain.
 
Jata- having born up

Ajata- not born

Ajata+Shatru= the one whose enemy hasn't born

I double checked translation of Gita shalokas from the book... meaning is right...
of course you are free not to believe....

-vinod

narenderkharb said:
When you were so sure about Ajatsatru meaning why are you not able to derive that as per sanskrit and hindi grammer ,or shall I take you raise question first , read post later as usal..

Waiting for your reply.....




PS. Ajatsatru is important regarding Jat History as it testifies Jat presence though indirectly in a period where you find no mention of jats in traditional books.

Secondly the existence of a kurukshetra east and totally outside bharata is certainly questionable and has ample scope of argument.
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vinodks said:
Jata- having born up

Ajata- not born

Ajata+Shatru= the one whose enemy hasn't born

I double checked translation of Gita shalokas from the book... meaning is right...
of course you are free not to believe....

-vinod
Click to expand...

As per the request of members this discussion is wrong in this thread so I am deleting ,let us try in proper thread.

My point was SANDHI OF ajata and shatru ie Ajata +satru = ajatasatru ,as per grammer rule not ajatsatru

and secondly adjective (Ajat ) should always specify noun (satru)as per grammer rule ie meaning should be an enemy that has not been born not it should refer to a third person whose enemy has not been born . However title like ajatsatru enemy of ajats put no gramatical problem and such titles DENOTING ENEMITY TO SOME GROUP has been used by rulers like Hunharin, saka +ARI =sakari ,Rudardaman....etc ,This is what I can deduce as per grammer rule,any way it can be done in seprate thread,also Haryana outside Bharat as suggested by you just looks fiction not reasonable argument.
 
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However, the thread is on "Jat in Indian Epics"

so better lets all Jats focus on this issue.

in my opinion Ramayan and Mahabharat are the two greatest epics.

lets name others also.

lets move with common sense and lets be traditional, or lets not be traditional, whichever way suits the commonsense.
 
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