Kashmir kiska hai

Bhai Shaheb,

UN was bakayada invited by Nehru Ji to intervene. I have read somewhere that Nehru thought it would be very hard to proceed further and fight in the mountains He wasnt too confident of the victory thats y he went to UN. Let the respected x/current army members educate us more about the issue.

Bhai ji

Jab 1948 me pak ne kashmir ne hamla kiya to Raja ranjit singh ne bhagkar jammu me aakar India k saath Sucecession papers sign kiye they us time pak k kabaili pathano ne kashmir me hindu aur musalmano dono ko mil k bahut loota aur tabhai machai thi. jis par India ne usi time janmat ki maang ko pak ne ye keh kar thukra diya tha ki Kashmir Muslimbahul hai to pak ko dena chahiye (kyonki pak janta tha ki janmat hogaya to pak haar jayega).

Ye to Nehru ji ko baad me kurkuri uthi aur all India radio (in 1948 or in early 1949) par Un ki dekh rekh me Janmat ki ghoshna kar di jo ki kabhi nahi hua.

Kasmir ko UN me Shashtri ji Pak yudh k time me le gaye they, (sabsey badi galti)
Aur UN ne Kasmir me status Quo bana diya kashmir par jo jahan hai wahi rahe, thats how LOC introduced.

Bhai date galat ho sake se eb dhyan koni dhaoosir.


Bhai Army aalya ne kyoo dukhi kare unney to kaam karan dey, Idhar- udhar dhyan hua to kashmir me koye atankwadi bad jaga.
 
Well Mr Vipin logically also kashmir is ours only. Intially after independence till 1989 there was no questihon and most of lands were before independance were owned by kashmiri hindu pandits , there lands were taken away from them bcos of stupid land reforms their land were taken away to help poor muslims but there was lot of unlawful things were done during those reforms. no matter it was done to bring up the very poor class. but after that in 1989 they were killed and all hindus have to leave kashmir , that was the inability of Congress that happened. Now those people starts saying they want accession to kashmir and you think kashmir is not ours. those who want to go to pakistan they think religion is bigger than their country. Let them go. If they want kashmir well sooner or later they will be killed. Please dont bring human right thing in this matter. those who are asking accession to pakistan are not innocent. they have blood on their hands and they should be punished.
 
Bhai Ji,

Wikipedia to nue kave he UN me nehru lege the aap ye shashtri ji vali bat ko vistar se batayiye

The resulting war over Kashmir, the First Kashmir War, lasted until 1948, when India moved the issue to the UN Security Council. The UN previously had passed resolutions setting up for the monitoring of the conflict in Kashmir. The committee it set up was called the United Nations Committee for India and Pakistan. Following the set up of the UNCIP the UN Security Council passed Resolution 47 on April 21, 1948. The resolution imposed that an immediate cease-fire take place and said that Pakistan should withdraw all presence and had no say in Jammu and Kashmir politics. It stated that India should retain a minimum military presence and stated "that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations". The cease fire took place on December 31, 1948.


Moves up to cease-fire

At this stage Indian Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru decided to ask UN to intervene. A UN cease-fire was arranged for the 31 December 1948. A few days before the cease-fire the Pakistanis launched a counter attack, which cut the road between Uri and Punch. After protracted negotiations a cease-fire was agreed to by both countries, which came into effect. The terms of the cease-fire as laid out in the UNCIP resolution.[12] of August 13, 1948 were adopted by the UN on January 5, 1949
 
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Well Mr Vipin logically also kashmir is ours only.

Could you be more specific on this?? What was the logic?? I am just trying to learn as much as I can thats the only reason of my questions !


You dont have to use MR before my name all the time Vipin is fine :)
 
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Bhai Ji,

Wikipedia to nue kave he UN me nehru lege the aap ye shashtri ji vali bat ko vistar se batayiye

The resulting war over Kashmir, the First Kashmir War, lasted until 1948, when India moved the issue to the UN Security Council. The UN previously had passed resolutions setting up for the monitoring of the conflict in Kashmir. The committee it set up was called the United Nations Committee for India and Pakistan. Following the set up of the UNCIP the UN Security Council passed Resolution 47 on April 21, 1948. The resolution imposed that an immediate cease-fire take place and said that Pakistan should withdraw all presence and had no say in Jammu and Kashmir politics. It stated that India should retain a minimum military presence and stated "that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations". The cease fire took place on December 31, 1948.


Moves up to cease-fire

Bhai Vipin ji

Meri Angreji madi si kamjor se is maarey main wiki pedia nahi padta, k karu samaj me e aani na, ye baat te manne ek kitaab me padi thi history ki me, Upkaar prakshan ki thi jo naukri khatar padya kare.

Er fer tanne bera e tha te haadey thread kyoo lamba kare tha bhai ...................
 
Could you be more specific on this?? What was the logic?? I am just trying to learn as much as I think thats the only reason of my questions !


You dont have to use MR before my name all the time Vipin is fine :)

Vipin bhai

Maharaj Hari Singh who was the ruler of kashmir sign succession agreements wid India, This reason only is sufficiient.

After this J&K Rajaysabha(where people representatives only passed that) also passed and bill/reso. in 1970 (not sure abut date) to get merge kashmir with India (J & K get some special status also)- Second sufficient reason.

Bhai wiki me dekh ki bataiye thik se ek nahi and what happen to that bill after that in Loksabha?????????
 
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Phogat bhai ji me jade to Army ke bhayiyon ki rai si le raha tha kaunki kayi bate open me nahi aati. Kayi hidden truth hote hen. Har yar angrezi to meri bhi gani kasuti konya. Thread ne lamba isliye kar raha hun bhai taki sare bahi is mude par apna apna gyan bante aur me kuch sikh lun unse.
 
Phogat bhai ji me jade to Army ke bhayiyon ki rai si le raha tha kaunki kayi bate open me nahi aati. Kayi hidden truth hote hen. Har yar angrezi to meri bhi gani kasuti konya.------- Wa te me teri handwriting dekh ki e samaj gya tha bhai

Thread ne lamba isliye kar raha hun bhai taki sare bahi is mude par apna apna gyan bante aur me kuch sikh lun unse.

Sahi keh se bhai k bera kunsa ques. kunsey paper me aaja.

Doosrey ka sawal Aapka fayda................................hahahhaha
 
bhai chahe jitna raazi ho lo.. i dont think kashmeer humara hai....
i have heard that we indians cant even buy land in kashmeer... fer humara kahan se hoya...
mann k ladu khane ho to fer kitne hee kha lo..... :)
 
bhai chahe jitna raazi ho lo.. i dont think kashmeer humara hai....
i have heard that we indians cant even buy land in kashmeer... fer humara kahan se hoya...
mann k ladu khane ho to fer kitne hee kha lo..... :)

Yaar narender

sochan te k howe se bhai

Tu jameen te UK (uttrakhand, united kingdom nahi) er Goa me bhi nahi le sakta, Eb state govt ne chhoot de di ho te alag baat se, kuch time pehley ban tha bahar k state walo k liye jameen lena.

Fer k we b india k koni ???????????
 
bhai raz bura na maaniye .. my statement was sarcastic... (otherwise i wish we can have kashmeer as piecefull as any other indian state)
goa arr UK ka to manne na pata par ye niyam galat hai...
kasmeer ki problem ye hai ki wahan hindu to rahe nahi arr musalmaan (not all of them) abhi bhi pakistaan k behkaawe mein aa rahe hain...
j wahan other states k log jameen khareed sakein aur fer jat arr sardaar barge wahan jakar bas jayen to fer ye maamla kuch sudhar jaye...
itz just like the muslims who are in majority in any colony in any city creates more problem but the muslims who are living among ppl of other religion are less agreessive and cooperative.

regards,
narendra
 
bhai raz bura na maaniye .. my statement was sarcastic... (otherwise i wish we can have kashmeer as piecefull as any other indian state)
goa arr UK ka to manne na pata par ye niyam galat hai...
kasmeer ki problem ye hai ki wahan hindu to rahe nahi arr musalmaan (not all of them) abhi bhi pakistaan k behkaawe mein aa rahe hain...
j wahan other states k log jameen khareed sakein aur fer jat arr sardaar barge wahan jakar bas jayen to fer ye maamla kuch sudhar jaye...
itz just like the muslims who are in majority in any colony in any city creates more problem but the muslims who are living among ppl of other religion are less agreessive and cooperative.

regards,
narendra

Bhai Narender

Naraj kya ka tu te nu keh se janu tanne kahi kashmir mahra koni er manne kashmir pakis tan tai de diya hahahh (for healthy humor only).

Bhai keh te thik se muslim kisey colony me aaja se te aur kimey ho na ho log daran lag ja se "Rey hudey na jaaiyo hudey musalmaana k ghar pade se"

Par shayad isi ko politics kehtey hai bhai ki sarkaar Haz subsidy k liye karodaon deti hai aur kashmir me 100 karod hinduo ko 100 aikad jameen b nahi milti................... sarkaarey gir jati hain.

East or West Indian Politics is d worst.
 
so this means indian gov. dnt want to resolve this issue. why to blame pakistan...
pakistaan to bus mouke ka fayda utha raha hai... :)
 
My 2 Cents:

Kashmir was princely state like other 500 states in India at the time of Independence. When we chartered the division of country, Officials decided on states going to be part of each country. Till that time, Nobody asked the princely states about their intentions. Somehow, Raja Hari Singh declined to joine India/Pakistan ( As per the agreement, This option was not available for any princely state). In 1948, Pakistan attacked the Kashmir using Afghan Guerrillas and then India retaliate with questionable efforts). Nehru/Gandhi thought that UN is a best place to raise this issue so that world will become sympathetic towards India. we had some chances from 1948-1971 to claim the lost territory.

During China War, we lost Akshi Chin to China. Indian army not only lost the battle but also lost the morale against the Chinese army.

We were in good position to claim back POK but India was more concerned about creating Bangladesh. Somehow, I agree that creating Bangladesh was very tactical move by Indra Gandhi and she secured eastern borders of India (Successive govts worked overtime to spoil relations with Bangaldesh and there are very strong Anti-India sentiments in general public there).

To summarize it well, Kashmir belonged to India and Pakistan/China hoodwinked India and went away with large chunk of Kashmir. Size of POK is bigger than India. Aksi Chin size is also close to Haryana.

In simple words, we lost area as much as twice the size of haryana and national pride.
 
My 2 Cents:

Kashmir was princely state like other 500 states in India at the time of Independence. When we chartered the division of country, Officials decided on states going to be part of each country. Till that time, Nobody asked the princely states about their intentions. Somehow, Raja Hari Singh declined to joine India/Pakistan ( As per the agreement, This option was not available for any princely state). In 1948, Pakistan attacked the Kashmir using Afghan Guerrillas and then India retaliate with questionable efforts). Nehru/Gandhi thought that UN is a best place to raise this issue so that world will become sympathetic towards India. we had some chances from 1948-1971 to claim the lost territory.

During China War, we lost Akshi Chin to China. Indian army not only lost the battle but also lost the morale against the Chinese army.

We were in good position to claim back POK but India was more concerned about creating Bangladesh. Somehow, I agree that creating Bangladesh was very tactical move by Indra Gandhi and she secured eastern borders of India (Successive govts worked overtime to spoil relations with Bangaldesh and there are very strong Anti-India sentiments in general public there).

To summarize it well, Kashmir belonged to India and Pakistan/China hoodwinked India and went away with large chunk of Kashmir. Size of POK is bigger than India. Aksi Chin size is also close to Haryana.
In simple words, we lost area as much as twice the size of haryana and national pride.

Bhai Mor Saab

Thanks for info., i was unaware how much area is illegaly captured by Pak & china.

Par ye china beech me kahan se aa gaya uski hisseydari kashmir me kis baat ki.
 
Mor bhai thanks a lot for this precious information.
The loss was big. Jo haath se gaya wo kam nahi tha. par agar abhi bhi nahi sudhre to jo bacha hai wo bhi jayega.
Looking at the current situation in kashmir by a native muslim's point of view:
What is the hope for betterment?
Deployed army all around, killing innocent citizen's (by mistake offcourse) creates a lot of frustration which most often creates negative thoughts in youth.

Why not goverment try to make the kashmiris feel at home by better facilities, education etc. why rest of the indians are not allowed to go and live there (buy land etc).
This would be a stretigic move which will help in disolving kashmir fully in India.

A mixed population will help in keeping down the aggression level of otherwise pure muslim population.
Also it will help in keeping low the issues like giving shelter to militants etc.

I mean government needs to tackle the situation in two ways

1. Give enough hope to local population where they can dream to live a prosperous and piecefull life like any other indian.
2. pumping some non muslim indian population in that region to indirectly suppress the anti-national activities.

Itz just like it takes two reasons to decide for job switch smoothly.
1. Frustration for the current job.
2. lucrative offer form other company with gr8 pay hike. :)

Ok may be not the best example but i hope I am able to make the point. :)

regards,
narendra
 
When we talk of Kashmir, we should really be talking about three geographical areas- Ladakh- Leh, Kashmir Valley, and Jammu.

Equally we need to look at another nomenclature (term) for the term” Princely State”.

The term Princely state was coined by the British rulers of India. It is another term for a term more familiar to most of us- a “Jagir. Or Zamindari”.

These Princes or Rajas or maharajas were not independents states, but were defeated rajas that were mostly subservient to the Muslim rulers of Delhi- the Mughals. When the British conquered Delhi, and the rest of India etc, they gave these Jagirdars/ Thakurs grandiose titles, and more importantly, gave them protection, and enshrined their Zamindari by fixing guaranteed revenue for their personal use. Their rule were enshrined in law, and protected by the British, who did not interfere in their day to day affairs.

Jammu and Kashmir was such a case. So was the case of the Rajasthan states, which are very relevant to the discussion at hand.

It should also be kept in mind that the British were quite upset at the prospect of India getting Independence in 1947.

There were very strenuous efforts being made by them to destroy the new nation even before it was created.

Some these efforts broadly speaking were

1) Support to the Muslim league, of Jinnah to create Pakistan,

2) Persuasion of the “princely states” to join Pakistan or to remain independent.

The last was very troublesome.

The British encouraged many ‘Princely states’ to not accede to the new India- Hyderabad, the Rajput states of Rajasthan, and also Jammu and Kashmir.

Jinnah and his allies had been working overtime to get the Border States to join Pakistan.

For an account of the Rajput states see;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/3029
Part 11- Maharaja of Jodhpur chooses- India or Pakistan?

Jammu and Kashmir was in a similar state- Joining Pakistan meant according to promises made, free and unfettered wealth.
In effect they were being offered a blank page on which they could write whatever agreement they wanted as long as they joined Pakistan

Part of the argument made was, that the natural pull was to West Pakistan, and not to the India side, interim of lines of communication, trade etc. This was supposed to override any other consideration.

This was attempting offer- the Rajput states of Jodhpur, Jaisalmer etc almost signed the accession documents to Pakistan, but the scheme was foiled. - Part of the reason was that these were Jat majority states and the transfer would not have been peaceful.

In the case Jammu, Kashmir, and Ladakh we have some other factors to consider.


History:

The entire state was under the Jagirdari of the Dogra Rajputs since the time the British conquered the Punjab.

Hindus were marginalized, as those converted to Islam, were not allowed back, due to the intransience of the Kashmiri Pandits.

Hari Singh vacillated on signing the accession to India document – He was being swayed by promises from Pakistan.


When he finally signed, the invasion by Pakistani troops and their tribal allies was in full swing.

They wee being aided by British officers and British civil administration.

Referral to UN.

This was another example of Nehru’s foolishness, as was the setting up Article 370.

The demographics had been changed- the state though part of India, did not allow Indians ( Hindus/Sikhs) to settle in the state- Hundreds of thousands of refugees from Pakistan arrived ,but they were not given statehood or voting rights.

Why this was done was and is a mystery.


It created a running sore, and that sore still exists today.


No Government in power has taken steps to eliminate article 370, and integrated the people and the state fully into the Indian nation

Ravi Chaudhary

For a good account of the times see:

Integration of the Indian States
By V P Menon [Paperback 1985]

Transfer of Power in India, The
By V P Menon
 
When we talk of Kashmir, we should really be talking about three geographical areas- Ladakh- Leh, Kashmir Valley, and Jammu.

Bhai Ravi
I have to disagree on this point, I am more fatalistic about it. Kashmir is a zero sum game for us and puke-istan. There is only one geography that is state of kashmir, it will be ours and should be ours. Ladakh, Leh, etc are just districts of state of kashmir. End of story, We have to be speak, act with One voice and propogate one message.
Everything else is just semantics. Our focus should be kashmir as one state. Chinese are always pricking their all-lie pukestan just to keep the heat on us. We have to become unified in the matter of national security.
Problem with our nation is anytime some Idiot becomes PM, they start chanting vedic mantar of bhaichara, peace and harmony with pakistan. Why do we have to have bhai chara and harmony with pukestan. Why can't we all accept the fact that Pukestan is a Soverign Nation, they have a right to exist but not at our expense, not by encroaching our property, our land. It has been 60 years we as a nation been singing the same arcane anathemical song of Hindu Muslim harmony, India-Pak harmony. We need to grow out of our churlish imagination and think outside the box.
We need to make our military stronger, reply to pukestan with all methonds and means possible even if it means sending few jihadis back to pukestan to make their cities burning hell, where people can't make a living for दो वक़्त की रोटी. let them rip eachother apart from seams, its not our fault they are killing eachother. We are here to provide fuel to the fire, and when pukestan has become कब्रिस्तान only then we will have ever lasting peace, harmony and coexistence within our neighborhood
Pukestani Starvation warms the cockles of my heart, every time I see some pukestani F***er starving and blowing himself and creating mayhem in his country, it adds more spice, flavor and aroma to my feast. उस दिन खाने में कुछ घना स्वाद आवे से

मेरे 50 पैसे.............
 
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Dear Members,
Very interesting discussion is developing. First of all, I have no intention to dispute any one's claim as most of the information we get is based on our access to various sources of information; which is different in each case.
My opinion on Kashmir has been expressed number of times on various post and hence there might be some repeatition for which I apologize in advance.
Firstly: The Demography of Undivided Jammu and Kashmir:

Jammu and Kashmir have three distinct regions namely Laddakh; Kashmir Valley and the area South of Pir Panjal Ranges mainly inhabitied with Dogras, Punjabi Muslims. There are three different languages spoken in these areas. As we know; the local population normally follows the local leaders. The Laddakh region is sparcely populated; while the region south of Pir Panjal is thickly populated. At the time of independence the Kashmir Valley (where the Kashmiri language is spoken) accounted for 38% of the votes, the Laddakh region accounted for 11% while 51% people lived south of Pir Panjal. The language sometimes becomes a bigger bond than religion. If the leaders both in Kashmir Valley and Jammu Region are muslims; then it is difficult for any leader from Valley to get to the power in the undivided state.

Secondly: Events Leading to the Accession of Kashmir to India:

Kashmir as we all know was a muslim majority state with a Hindu ruler. We also must understand the passions prevailing at that time due to Hindu-Muslim riots in India and Pakistan. Maharaja Hari Singh had no intention to join either India or Pakistan. Pakistan on the other hand thought that a Muslim Majority State having significance long term strategic value should become part of Pakistan. Reason: Most of the rivers flowing into Pakistan originate in J&K. The hilly terrain occupied militarily would give a bird eyes view to the activities happening in the rich plains of Punjab. In the event of a conflict with India; this could serve an ideal launch pad to carry out operations in Plains of Punjab. With majority population being muslim; and the strategic advantages being so vital; it was but natural for Pakistani rulers to ask for Kashmir to be part of Pakistan. On the other hand Kashmir becoming part of India would have enormous disadvantages to Pakistan. Further; Kashmir also had a economic value being a tourist attraction and hence the source of revenue and employment.

Pakistani Error: Pakistan made two big mistakes though. Firstly when their irregulars supported by Pakistani Army attacked Kashmir, they resorted to destruction of property; looting and misbehaving with the women and even raping them. This alienated the population and hence the assumed popular support. The second mistake they made was about the timings of attack. I will dwell on this in next post
 
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