Khap Panchayat and Indian Judicial System

[malikdeepak1]

I don't think money was collected for the purpose of killing.

They collected Rs 5 lakhs for that purpose only. Mhare gaam aalyan ne 51000 katthe karke diye the is kaam khatir.

Aur ladki ne jo kiya hai uske liye usko Faansi ki saja bhi kam padegi.
What has happened now is just the Vice-versa of Honor killings like Kapil mentioned in his post.

 

[samarkadian]

This is what happens when the powers-to-be resort to "hanga" leadership rather than moral one. Jungle kanoon. Maro ya Maaro. When the leadership in villages throws its weight behind every gotra-vivad, but turns a blind eye to honor killings, what moral authority is it left with? I had asked this earlier on the same thread. Some tried to absolve the khaps, others tried to mock the question. They don't see that to ask a valid question and get a reasonable response is an exercise in strengthening the system (or so I had wished anyways). To ignore it is a symptom of failure. When the authority fails, anarchy prevails. Now the reverse of honor killings has happened, equally disgraceful and disgusting. Next scene- typical hai-tauba by culture-vultures.

Very good point, Kapil.

I assume that whatever you had proposed , was on the lines of strengthing Gotra marriages/ affairs rows, happening among Jats ? What is alternate model in your schemes? Do you agree that this [same gotra affairs/marriages] is unethical? How this could be implemented to eradicate such issues from root? Would you mind to reproduce that post again here.

Without fixing this bug, Khap panchyats can not move ahead towards other equaly important issues like increasing trend of dowry among jats, gender ratio, buying of non-jat brides, land acquiring by govt. and industerialists, lack of Jat education societies and many more.

 

[sunillathwal]

Pahle to ath-gaama panchayat ne uska boycott kar diya er uste kahi ke chori ne ulti chhod aao er gaam chodd do. Par usne koe sa kaam nahi karya. To Bhai Khap panchayat hoyi fer 2-3 bar. Professer ko fir se warning di. WO nahi manaya (Jo uski galat baat thi) Un ne rupiye ikatthe kiye usko MAARNE ke liye.

Mere khud ke saamne ki baat se ya kyuki us tam main apne gaam me rhya karta Kasandhe me (Kasandha-kashandi sath-sath h bikul).

Probably sufficient to satisfy your query that Khap panchayats are involved in some way or other in such killings.

They collected Rs 5 lakhs for that purpose only. Mhare gaam aalyan ne 51000 katthe karke diye the is kaam khatir.

My ignorance!! This is the first time i have heard about any incident where Khap panchayat collected money to hire goons to eliminate the wrong-doer!! As you are from the same village, i assume it is no hearsay and i have no reason to doubt you.
Can you further elaborate what was the 'modus-operandi' of this money collecting exercise?? i mean did they openly say that they need money
to hire someone?? [just for my curiosity, my village is not very far from gohana... 13 kms only]

I have seen in my village, panchayat collecting money for vill school renovation, for 'johad-khudai', digging well, etc. Ppl (sarcpnach, gaon ke buddhe-bujurg, panchayat memebers) come in group to every home and ask for the contribution. Har ghar apni haisiyet ke hisab se paise daan karte hai...

How 'it' was exercised ?? 'Who and all' contributed here?? Nobody questioned them?? what about your family.. did u contribute?? Please don't take it as a personal comment or something.
i am just curios about this whole exercise.

 

[kapdal]

Very good point, Kapil.

I assume that whatever you had proposed , was on the lines of strengthing Gotra marriages/ affairs rows, happening among Jats ? What is alternate model in your schemes? Do you agree that this [same gotra affairs/marriages] this is unethical? How this could be implemented to eradicate such issues from root? Would you mind to reproduce that post again here.

Without fixing this bug, Khap panchyats can not move ahead towards other equaly important issues like increasing trend of dowry among jats, gender ratio, buying of non-jat brides, land acquiring by govt. and industerialists, lack of Jat education societies and many more.

Samar, the crux of my argument can be found here:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224007&postcount=145

My argument is about principles. That Khaps have to deal with all social issues and take a morally correct stand on them. I can suggest that Khaps should proactively connect with youngsters and carry out social reforms/emphasise on social customs like Arya Samaj did. But it can only be a suggestion and not a solution. The best and most capable people to come up with solutions (planned or trial/error route) are Khap/Panchayat people, as they are traditional centers of social power and still recognized by the majority. If they remain indifferent like they have been, they may become redundant.

They can't afford to be reactionary (Koi mudda uthayega to panchayat hogi) or selective (Will look at gotra vivads but not honor killings) in what they deal with. All social evils (including honor killings, female infanticide, etc.) have to be unequivocally condemned and the guilty given appropriate social punishment (let the state handle the criminal case). That would give them moral authority, something every ruler needs. Once you have that, you have to use danda only on rare occasions. Otherwise, it is Andhre Nagri, Chaupat Raja. And then none of your rules or danda works.

 

[rekharathee]

why that girl's episode is being related to khap panchayts and honour killings,we read or watch such cases very frequently and all the culprits(who kill their parents for their so called love,when parents do not agree) are not jats....these are basically the deeds f hysterical mind-sets.......b it jat or ny other cast.

 

[anilsinghd]

why that girl's episode is being related to khap panchayts and honour killings.

Rekha, agreed that we can afford to not relate this issue with Khaps at all. But it does not make any harm if we do that as well.

Basically this event (which people are tagging as reverse Honour killing) and the honour killing/issues are no more than "REACTIONARY EVENTS".

And my plain logic is that one cannot solve these issues by being reactionary about things. Having a futuristic vision and to cut the problem at its roots is the way to go.
I have repeated that earlier as well but Khap panchayats or Panchayats or Govt or any Authority need to educate/inform people ( from an early age) about the social norms and their implications. Moral value books which were written 50 years ago are of no use in today's context.

 

[singhabhimanyu]

Anil, wht's the problem? i dont understand why we're calling this act to be some retaliation to khap laws. i agree with rekha, these gruesome acts are committed by wicked sociopaths who can be in any caste n any country. here's another example http://blog.taragana.com/n/caught-in-compromising-position-daughter-kills-mother-lead-69738/ do u think this kapoor girl retaliated to some khap vap? if u ask me, these horrific things happen in any society. i wonder how people @ jatland.com would have reacted if the nithari culprit was some jat. or if tht bloody austrian Fritlz (incest father) was some jat. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3835640.ece

Having a futuristic vision and to cut the problem at its roots is the way to go.

why that girl's episode is being related to khap panchayts and honour killings,we read or watch such cases very frequently and all the culprits(who kill their parents for their so called love,when parents do not agree) are not jats....these are basically the deeds f hysterical mind-sets.......b it jat or ny other cast.

 

[anilsinghd]

Anil, wht's the problem? i dont understand why we're calling this act to be some retaliation to khap laws. i agree with rekha, these gruesome acts are committed by wicked sociopaths who can be in any caste n any country.

Abhimanyu , you might apprecaite that I did not disagree with Rekha on that. I read the case you gave as link. That is totally different from the Khaps etc , totally agreed on that.

The reason I said the Samar's posted case was in some sense realted is because its in the village context and there is hint that the family did not want the relation to go on and thats the reason why it happened.

The problem that you asked is this: LACK OF DEFINITION OF NORMS.

Believe it or not , but if Khaps/parents/panchayats/court/govt. can precisely put down points on what's socially feasible and accpetable and what is not , it will go a long way in simplifying things.

 

[singhabhimanyu]

no its not at all different frm the way i see it. these are just 2-3 instances of senseless insanity which i blve is beyond any education. not all sicknesses can be cured. these happen and will continue to happen despite the norms being meticulously defined or maybe so in the future. im firm we're unnecessarily dragging in n out the khaps here.

Abhimanyu , you might apprecaite that I did not disagree with Rekha on that. I read the case you gave as link. That is totally different from the Khaps etc , totally agreed on that.
The problem that you asked is this: LACK OF DEFINITION OF NORMS.

 

[hoodarajesh]

kabul pur rohtak htyakaand

ganv kabul pur me jo huaa kya wo hamari jato ki sanskarti
anusaar huaa hai . sayad hindistan ka pahala mamla hai jo
ye ghatit huaa hai . kya is par bhi hamari jaati ki chhaap
lagni thi . kya ab hame ab ghar ki ladkiyo se bhi daar lagne lagega .
inhe faasi se kam saja nhi honi chahiye .
aap logo ki kya raay hai .......

 

[rana1]

ganv kabul pur me jo huaa kya wo hamari jato ki sanskarti
anusaar huaa hai . sayad hindistan ka pahala mamla hai jo
ye ghatit huaa hai . kya is par bhi hamari jaati ki chhaap
lagni thi . kya ab hame ab ghar ki ladkiyo se bhi daar lagne lagega .
inhe faasi se kam saja nhi honi chahiye .
aap logo ki kya raay hai .......

bhai rajesh her parewar m her admi ki ek limit hoti h agar unme se koi ek bhi apni limit cross kerta h to esaa hona lajmi h baki jo huaa bhout buraa huaa abb aap hi soch ker dekhoo ke us ladki ke under keetna jaher bhera huaa hoga jo usne ye kadam uthaya baki ye ghtena samaj ko kalinkeet kerne wali h hamare badeye bujurag theek hi kehte h kee ajj ke balaka m samai kona reh ri ha agee koi asaa kadam na uthaye es leye kanoon ko unee kadi se kadi saja deni chahiye

agar kissi bhai ko nahi pata h to go and get full information
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/local/haryana/4_6_5802979_1.html

 

[arvindjangu]

काफी दिनों से इस थ्रेड में 'होनौर किलिंग ' पर बहस चल रही हैं | हर एक यह बात कह रहा हैं की यह गलत हैं ऐसा नहीं होना चाहिए , और इसके लिए खाप वालों को कोस रहें हैं | एक बहनजी ने तो खाप को बिलकुल गलत करार कर दिया , उनका खाप से ज्यादा न्यायपालिका पर विश्वास हैं | क्या न्यायपालिका में भ्रष्टाचार नहीं हैं , सबसे ज्यादा भ्रष्ट तो आजके दिन हमारी न्यायपालिका हैं | आपको कोई नक़ल लेनी हैं तो अहलमद को १००-२०० का नोट देना पड़ता हैं , तारीख लेनी हैं तो जज के रीडर को नोट दो ,गवाही चल रही हो तो सरकारी वकील को पैसे दो | अभी पीछे आप सभी ने मनु शर्मा वाले केस के बारे में पढ़ा होगा , उसको कैसे न्यायपलिका ने बरी कर दिया था | रही खाप की बात तो यह खाप वाले कोई विदेश से नहीं बुलाये जाते , यह लोग हम में से ही होते हैं | गाँव में कितने अहम् फैसले इन खाप पंचायतो के द्वारा लिए जाते जो बिलकुल सही होते हैं | खाप किसे एक आदमी की जागीर नहीं होती की आप उसे खरीद लोगे | अपने समाज अपनी संस्कृति को बचाने के लिए जो ये खाप वाले करते हैं वो न्यायपालिका नहीं कर सकती |
रही बात हत्या की , खाप के लोग कभी किसी को नहीं मरवाते | कुछ दिन पहले एक अखबार में इन खापों के विरोध में काफी विस्तार से लिखा था के ये खाप वाले पैसे लेकर हत्याए बलत्कार जैसे काम करवाते हैं | इस थ्रेड में भी एक भाई ने अपने पड़ोस के गाँव का हवाला दिया हैं | भाई खाप के द्वारा जो यह पैसे उगाए जाते हैं ये किसी हत्या के लिए नहीं , उस दौरान चल रही पंचायत के खार्चे के लिए उगाहे जाते हैं | खाप वालों को किसी को मारने के लिए भाड़े के गुंडे की जरुरत नहीं पड़ती . और न ही वो लोग कोई हत्या या बलत्कार करवाते हैं | यह खाप पंचायत समाज की मान मर्यादा शांति के लिए होती हैं न के हत्या के लिए | अखबार में जिनने वो अर्टिकल लिखा था उनमे से मुझे कोई भी ऐसा नजर नहीं आया जिसका परिवेश गाँव से हो | और न ही उनलोगों का सामाजिक मेल हमसे खाता हैं सो जाहिर सी बात हैं वो लोग हमारे हमारी संस्कृति के विरूद्व ही लिखेंगे | हमारी जो संस्कृति सदियों से चली आ रही हैं वो इस २१ वि सदी के आते ही एकदम कैसे ख़राब हो गई | हम लोग दूसरो की संस्कृति से जल्दी प्रभावित हो जाते हैं जबकि हमे करना चाहिए दूसरो को अपनी संस्कृति से प्रभावित |
'सांप ने के मारे सांप की माँ न मारे ' तो यह हत्याए रोकने के लिए कानून में संसोधन की जरुरत हैं और इसके लिए हमारे खाप के बड़े बुजुर्ग प्रयास कर रहे हैं | इस प्रकार की हत्या आदमी सामाजिक डर अर्र शर्म के कारण करता हैं अक लोग के कहेंगे | कबूलपुर के काण्ड से खाप का क्या लेना देना | अब यह मीडिया वाले इनके प्यार की वकालत भी करेंगे एक गोत्र के हुए तो क्या हुआ हरेक को अपना जीवन जीवन जीने का हक हैं | आजकल के बच्चे फ़िल्मी हो गए हैं इन्हें सिर्फ प्यार नजर आता हैं (इस प्यार के आगे माँ बाप का २० साल का प्यार भी फिंका पड़ जाता हैं , क्योंकि प्यार और हवस में फरक होता हैं जिसे ये बच्चे प्यार समझ रहें वो वास्तव में प्यार नहीं एक हवस मात्र हैं ) आजकल की फिल्मों में चाहे एक्शन मूवी हो भगत सिंह पर कोई मूवी हो इनने प्यार जरुर दिखाना हैं , एक गाँव में ही पडोस की छोरी त प्यार दिखावेंगे |

 

[ambijat]

क्या यह जानने का प्रयास नहीं करना चाहिए कि आखिर सगोत्र विवाह के मामले हरियाणा में ही क्यो इस प्रकार से आ रहे हैं । अन्य जाट क्षेत्रो से क्यो नहीं । जाहिर है कि खाप की भूमिका इसमें महत्व रखती है । अब यह मान लेना चाहिए कि कुछ लचीलापन दिखाने की जरूरत है । गोत्र व पिंड को अलग करके देखना चाहिए क्योकि इसका अब ठोस आधार नहीं रहा है ।

 

[rsdalal]

Just for information, there were many incidents in West UP jatland villeges few years back. So it is not just Haryana.
Rajsthan, as LS burduck ji explained Khaps are not strong enough.
Regarding लचीलापन , it is relative term, as per one person Khaps are too much relaxed can be too rigid per another person.
Khaps change their rules with time. for instance Dahiya and Dabas Gott never used to have marriage alliances, but now it is allowed. Nani ka gott is relaxed now etc etc. What else they can relex depends on ourselves, as rightly said in above post Khaps are us only
....

क्या यह जानने का प्रयास नहीं करना चाहिए कि आखिर सगोत्र विवाह के मामले हरियाणा में ही क्यो इस प्रकार से आ रहे हैं । अन्य जाट क्षेत्रो से क्यो नहीं । जाहिर है कि खाप की भूमिका इसमें महत्व रखती है । अब यह मान लेना चाहिए कि कुछ लचीलापन दिखाने की जरूरत है । गोत्र व पिंड को अलग करके देखना चाहिए क्योकि इसका अब ठोस आधार नहीं रहा है ।

 

[hoodarajesh]

क्या यह जानने का प्रयास नहीं करना चाहिए कि आखिर सगोत्र विवाह के मामले हरियाणा में ही क्यो इस प्रकार से आ रहे हैं । अन्य जाट क्षेत्रो से क्यो नहीं । जाहिर है कि खाप की भूमिका इसमें महत्व रखती है । अब यह मान लेना चाहिए कि कुछ लचीलापन दिखाने की जरूरत है । गोत्र व पिंड को अलग करके देखना चाहिए क्योकि इसका अब ठोस आधार नहीं रहा है ।

क्यों भाई ये मामले पश्चिमी उत्तर परदेश और दिल्ल्ली में भी कई
बार आते है . और रही बात लचीला पण अपनाने की तो थोडी
सी ही डील देते ही ये प्यार मोहबत पड़ोस को तो छोडो घर में
ही चालू हो जायेंगे १०-२० साल बाद . इसलिए जो बच रहा है
उसको बचाए रखो . जाट बल्ट में मिडिया वाले भी तो कुछ जाट
होते है . पर अपने चैनल की टी आर पि बढाने के लिए ये लोग
अगर भैस भी कोई मरी दिख गई तो वही कैमरा फिट कर बोलने
लग जायेंगे की -- सगोत्र झोटे से ब्याह नही होने देने से पंचायत के
फरमान ने एक जिन्दगी और लील ली .
अब काबुल पुर वाले केस में भी बार बार टी.वि पर दिखा रहे की पंचायत
के भय के चलते लड़की ने यह कदम उठाया . जब की इस मामले में नै तो कोई
पंचायत हुई और नै ही किसी को पता था .

 

[sunillathwal]

@ Mod: Please delete this post.. Double posting.. (hence edited)

 

[sunillathwal]

अब काबुल पुर वाले केस में भी बार बार टी.वि पर दिखा रहे की पंचायत
के भय के चलते लड़की ने यह कदम उठाया . जब की इस मामले में नै तो कोई
पंचायत हुई और नै ही किसी को पता था .

Precisely...

Take any news paper published from anyplace in india.. north.. south.. anywhere, go to state news section.. One can always find news heading like:

=================
"Couple killed by girl's brother and his friends.."

"Boy/Girl commits suicide for not allowing to marry his/her lover..."

"Mr. X (mansik santulan theek nahi tha jiska) killed his mother in a fit of rage.."

"Mr. Y filed lodged FIR against Mr. Z for "meri beti ko bahla-fusla ke agwa kar liya gaya hai"

"Absconding couple found @ mmmdd"
========================

And it is not just the uneducated, or teenage girls/boys are going to such extremes like murdering others/themselves.
Last year only one PhD scholar (girl, about to finish her phd... 29+ aged) from my dept @IISc committed suicide, Reason was most common: parent objected/interfered!!

BTW, she was not JAT, neither her village (metro city to be precise) had any panchayat or Khaps.

I wonder what ppl, who are blaming Khap for anything (and everything happening in confinement of one's home), have to say here!!

Are Khaps/ Panchayats responsible (directly or INDIRECTLY) here??

 

[yudhvirmor]

Precisely...

Take any news paper published from anyplace in india.. north.. south.. anywhere, go to state news section.. One can always find news heading like:

=================
"Couple killed by girl's brother and his friends.."

"Girl commits suicide for not allowing to marry his lover..."

"Mr. X (mansik santulan theek nahi tha jiska) killed his mother in a fit of rage.."

"Mr. Y filed lodged FIR against Mr. Z for "meri beti ko bahla-fusla ke agwa kar liya gaya hai"

"Absconding couple found @ mmmdd"
========================

And it is not just the uneducated, or teenage girls/boys are going to such extremes like murdering others/themselves.
Last year only one PhD scholar (girl, about to finish her phd... 29+ aged) from my dept @IISc committed suicide, Reason was most common: parent objected/interfered!!

BTW, she was not JAT, neither her village (metro city to be precise) had any panchayat or Khaps.

I wonder what ppl who are blaming Khap for anything (and everything happening in confinement of one's home) have to say here!!

Are Khaps/ Panchayats responsible (directly or INDIRECTLY) here??

Its a question of Psyche... I was reading "I am OK You are OK" and found that most of us has Parent Ego problem... We always like to blame.. Khaps blame people like you & me (Munch kate ar Jeans alle balak) and we blame them( Illiterate Old Mustande)

 

[sunillathwal]

Its a question of Psyche... I was reading "I am OK You are OK" and found that most of us has Parent Ego problem... We always like to blame.. Khaps blame people like you & me (Munch kate ar Jeans alle balak) and we blame them( Illiterate Old Mustande)

Yudhvir Bhai, Generation gap is ok.. it had always been there and it will be there in future also. even in so called 'developed nations', generation-gap is there (though parent's objection list is different) But that is not the point here.

We are/were discussing about the role of Khaps/Panchayats in 'honor killings' and (recent) 'reverse honor killings'!!
I have already put my views in earlier posts in this thread regarding the inability/inaction/passiveness of Khap in these matters.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224058&postcount=146

Progressive, evolving, mature, lachilee Khaps... great concept... utopian. It should be there. But should is a funny word. In an 'utopian' world there won't be any need of a Khap either!!

Many ppl are accusing khap of their DIRECT or INDIRECT involvement in 'honor killings'.
Strangely, nobody is talking about the parents responsibilities!!
As i already said, honor killing, suicides related issues are everywhere in India.. if Gotar is not an issue, then somewherecaste is or somewherestatus is or parent's whimsy objections are.
In most parts of india, Khaps doesn't exist BUT these issues does!!
[BTW even in some part of Andhra, same clan / same village marriages are not allowed though they can marry in their mother's gotar. Such marriages should be allowed or not is an entirely different issue.]

How and why khaps are being dragged in recent incident is beyond my understanding [whereas individuals are being let-off.]

All that i can say further: If Khaps/Pnachayats are uncivilized and barbaric.. believe me our cast, our ppl are far more savage and barbaric.. Here at JL itself many ppl are ok with 'honor killings', go to average Molads of villages and towns, hear their view regarding these issues..

I strongly believe that our Panchayats/Khaps are a liberal, forward minded, milder (in some sense) and progressive reflection of our folks. if Khaps are not good enough, there is something horribly wrong with our cast/society and only time can fix that.

 

[ambijat]

Just for information, there were many incidents in West UP jatland villeges few years back. So it is not just Haryana.
Rajsthan, as LS burduck ji explained Khaps are not strong enough.
Regarding लचीलापन , it is relative term, as per one person Khaps are too much relaxed can be too rigid per another person.
Khaps change their rules with time. for instance Dahiya and Dabas Gott never used to have marriage alliances, but now it is allowed. Nani ka gott is relaxed now etc etc. What else they can relex depends on ourselves, as rightly said in above post Khaps are us only
....

यह ठीक है कि राजस्थान में जाट एक अपवाद ही हैं कि वहाँ किसी प्रकार की खाप व्यवस्था नहीं है, पर यह जानने का कम प्रयास किया जाता है कि शायद यहाँ गोत्रों की विविधता भी अधिक है, जो कि इस प्रकार के संकट की संभावना को कम करता है . एक और तथ्य यह भी है कि राजस्थान में अंतरजातीय विवाह भी जाटों में स्वीकार्य हो रहे हैं . खाप व्यवस्था के लिए इन सभी परिस्थितियों में किसी भी प्रकार की भूमिका नहीं रह जाती है .
एक दलील बङी कमजोर दी जा रही है कि यदि खाप की परंपराएं नहीं रहीं तो कुल व गोत्रों में ही विवाह हो जाने लगेंगे . यदि युवा वर्ग का exposure अधिक होता है , तो वह इस प्रकार के झुकाव कम ही रखता है . यह उचित कहा गया है कि लचीलापन सापेक्ष तथ्य है पर शायद साधन संपन्न लोगों के लिए ज्यादा .